Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt?

Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (Full Version)

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Carico -> Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 10:09:48 AM)
All societies understand why a criminal defendant is not allowed to judge his own guilt. That's because the interests of a criminal defendant is in saving his own skin. So he cannot be considered credible enough to judge whether or not he deserves death. God is the judge because he made His laws. So only God can determine who broke them and who didn't. Yet most human beings feel qualified to sit in judgment of God and themselves. That's because we humans are all sitting in the criminal defendant's chair on judgment day, trying to save our own skin. That's also why the biggest complaint about God by humans is that he sentences people to eternal death. So since most humans are trying to save their own skin, they can't be honest enough to judge their own guilt. However, a judge is much more likely to be merciful if a defendant admitted his guilt and felt remorse for it. But even earthly judges will sentence a criminal to death if he committed a crime that mandates death by law. Not so with God. God will pardon every crime if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness. But if we can't even be honest enough to do that, then God has no recourse but to punish us since He will not allow himself to be mocked forever or he'd be a wimp and not to be respected. But he can't punish us until we die because he gives each of us 365 days times the number of years we live to confess and repent. So he can't punish us until and the last second of our lives which makes our punishment eternal. No earthly judge is that lenient with any lawbreaker. So those of you who are quick to criticize God need to look at the thousands of times you've broken God's laws in your lifetimes before you're qualified to judge God.

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 10:53:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico All societies understand why a criminal defendant is not allowed to judge his own guilt. That's because the interests of a criminal defendant is in saving his own skin. So he cannot be considered credible enough to judge whether or not he deserves death. I think you may be mixing religious considerations with legal ones. 'Guilt," in the legal sense, is not determined necessarily by the fact of an action, but often is determined by mitigating circumstances that go beyond the simple facts of actuallity. For example, sometimes someone will react to their own action in accord with how they have been brought up to believe certain standards of cause and effect. They react to an adverse circumstance with destructive force, and bad things result, causing remorse and guilt. But legal guilt may be not forthcoming because the victim of your action may have contributed an abnormal ammount of influence on making the outcome happen. The guilt then becomes "He brought it on himself," and your guilt is assessed accordingly. God sometimes sends someone (an army, for example) to punish a nation for rebellion against God either in action or failure to act. Guilt may well result in members of the army God has raised up. God will take care of all that at the judgment. Yet sometimes suicide results from such guilt if not dealt with with compassion and understanding. And an understanding of God's dealings with men.

Carico -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 11:03:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theo_book quote: ORIGINAL: Carico All societies understand why a criminal defendant is not allowed to judge his own guilt. That's because the interests of a criminal defendant is in saving his own skin. So he cannot be considered credible enough to judge whether or not he deserves death. I think you may be mixing religious considerations with legal ones. 'Guilt," in the legal sense, is not determined necessarily by the fact of an action, but often is determined by mitigating circumstances that go beyond the simple facts of actuallity. For example, sometimes someone will react to their own action in accord with how they have been brought up to believe certain standards of cause and effect. They react to an adverse circumstance with destructive force, and bad things result, causing remorse and guilt. But legal guilt may be not forthcoming because the victim of your action may have contributed an abnormal ammount of influence on making the outcome happen. The guilt then becomes "He brought it on himself," and your guilt is assessed accordingly. God sometimes sends someone (an army, for example) to punish a nation for rebellion against God either in action or failure to act. Guilt may well result in members of the army God has raised up. God will take care of all that at the judgment. Yet sometimes suicide results from such guilt if not dealt with with compassion and understanding. And an understanding of God's dealings with men. God made laws. The bible refers to anyone who breaks them as a lawbreaker. Suicide comes from not accepting Christ's atonement for one's sins. What you are doing is trying to justify breaking laws by claiming that one "couldn't help himself' so he is not guilty, others are. That is again blaming others for one's own wrongdoings. God doesn't look at it that way either. "To his own master, each man stands or falls." [;)]

GHitch -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 12:11:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico God made laws. The bible refers to anyone who breaks them as a lawbreaker. Suicide comes from not accepting Christ's atonement for one's sins. What you are doing is trying to justify breaking laws by claiming that one "couldn't help himself' so he is not guilty, others are. That is again blaming others for one's own wrongdoings. God doesn't look at it that way either. "To his own master, each man stands or falls." [;)] Your view on suicide is too narrow imo. Some people commit suicide because they are genuinely mentally ill and don't understand what they are doing. Guilt is not measured by the law alone. Not the importance of the precept. Nor by God's greatness vs the sinners smallness. Nor by circumstances. God certainly takes all these into account. But guilt is measured by the light one has when transgressing a law. That's why Jesus states that whoever did not know the law when transgressing it will be punished less severely than the one who knew. It also why Paul stated that the heath en that don't know the law will be judged according to the light in their own conscience without the law (rom. 2) quote: 2:12 All those who have done wrong without the law will get destruction without the law: and those who have done wrong under the law will have their punishment by the law; For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers: For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves; Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval; BBE So only God knows ones true measure of guilt. And not all transgressions are equal in guilt worthiness. As Christ said, 'he who gave me up to you has the greater sin'. Some sins are worse than others, but all deliberate transgression is fatal to the soul if not repented of.

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 2:51:24 PM)
quote: (Carico) All societies understand why a criminal defendant is not allowed to judge his own guilt. That's because the interests of a criminal defendant is in saving his own skin. So he cannot be considered credible enough to judge whether or not he deserves death. (theo) I think you may be mixing religious considerations with legal ones. 'Guilt," in the legal sense, is not determined necessarily by the fact of an action, but often is determined by mitigating circumstances that go beyond the simple facts of actuallity. For example, sometimes someone will react to their own action in accord with how they have been brought up to believe certain standards of cause and effect. They react to an adverse circumstance with destructive force, and bad things result, causing remorse and guilt. But legal guilt may be not forthcoming because the victim of your action may have contributed an abnormal ammount of influence on making the outcome happen. The guilt then becomes "He brought it on himself," and your guilt is assessed accordingly. God sometimes sends someone (an army, for example) to punish a nation for rebellion against God either in action or failure to act. Guilt may well result in members of the army God has raised up. God will take care of all that at the judgment. Yet sometimes suicide results from such guilt if not dealt with with compassion and understanding. And an understanding of God's dealings with men. (Carico) God made laws. The bible refers to anyone who breaks them as a lawbreaker. Suicide comes from not accepting Christ's atonement for one's sins. What you are doing is trying to justify breaking laws by claiming that one "couldn't help himself' so he is not guilty, others are. That is again blaming others for one's own wrongdoings. God doesn't look at it that way either. "To his own master, each man stands or falls." [;)] I was responding to the key element in the Original post: "All societies understand..." I was not addressing God's saving grace, nor Jesus' sacrifice, but the reaons for all societies haveing a similar understanding.

deborlie -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 4:06:22 PM)
Judging God! Who are we, the created, to judge Him? He can do what He very well pleases and not ask us or tell us a thing. We only think we can blame Him, because we have lived this long in the environs of the god of this world. We are happily eating his apple. We are only kidding ourselves. During God's Judgment of us: We will grovel mute before Him, in our shame and guilt. How real it will be for us then. It will be pure truth at that point. We will not have the audacity to plead our cause, we will have no excuse and we'll know it at that time. We will know what we deserve, if we don't know it now. No one, is destined to eternal death, but, you will have a place in eternally. The fear of eternity in Hell. And well we should fear it. It is hard for us to understand His kind of Love, His Mercy, His Grace, His wanting to forgive us. Or, just plain wanting us. His ways are not ours. Being this side of heaven, blurs our understanding of that. Hell was not created for human habitat. It was meant for Satan and his followers. The Christain certainly knows it is not God sending us there, but we, ourselves, because of whom we choose to follow. He has shown us the way: Praise God, for He cared enough to send His Very Best, so we can spend eternity with Him. He is our champion! If He is for us, who can stand against us? Blessings! bj

evry1needsgod -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 8:26:06 PM)
quote: Not so with God. God will pardon every crime if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness. You forgot one VERY important requirement - repentance. One can admit they did wrong, feel guilty, and accept Jesus' forgiveness, but still not be saved. Accepting Jesus' sacrifice and wanting Jesus' sacrifice are two totally different things. One can accept it but not want it. IOW, one can feel bad all day long, but until they repent of their sins, they are merely a victim of their God-given conscious, soon to sear it with a hot iron.

Carico -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 11:23:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GHitch quote: ORIGINAL: Carico God made laws. The bible refers to anyone who breaks them as a lawbreaker. Suicide comes from not accepting Christ's atonement for one's sins. What you are doing is trying to justify breaking laws by claiming that one "couldn't help himself' so he is not guilty, others are. That is again blaming others for one's own wrongdoings. God doesn't look at it that way either. "To his own master, each man stands or falls." [;)] Your view on suicide is too narrow imo. Some people commit suicide because they are genuinely mentally ill and don't understand what they are doing. Guilt is not measured by the law alone. Not the importance of the precept. Nor by God's greatness vs the sinners smallness. Nor by circumstances. God certainly takes all these into account. But guilt is measured by the light one has when transgressing a law. That's why Jesus states that whoever did not know the law when transgressing it will be punished less severely than the one who knew. It also why Paul stated that the heath en that don't know the law will be judged according to the light in their own conscience without the law (rom. 2) quote: 2:12 All those who have done wrong without the law will get destruction without the law: and those who have done wrong under the law will have their punishment by the law; For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers: For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves; Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval; BBE So only God knows ones true measure of guilt. And not all transgressions are equal in guilt worthiness. As Christ said, 'he who gave me up to you has the greater sin'. Some sins are worse than others, but all deliberate transgression is fatal to the soul if not repented of. We are all punished for sin whether or not we are aware of the law. Those who don't know their master's will still be punished, although less severely. But a sin is a sin to God. As James says if we stumble just once, we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Only in man's eyes are there hierarchies of sin. So the point is that no human being is qualified to judge God because we are the defendants in His courtroom. And as far as suicide goes, those who commit suicide are claiming that God is a liar when he says he will not give us more than we can bear. And God is not a liar. So they obviously didn't trust God.

Carico -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/25/2008 11:29:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theo_book quote: (Carico) All societies understand why a criminal defendant is not allowed to judge his own guilt. That's because the interests of a criminal defendant is in saving his own skin. So he cannot be considered credible enough to judge whether or not he deserves death. (theo) I think you may be mixing religious considerations with legal ones. 'Guilt," in the legal sense, is not determined necessarily by the fact of an action, but often is determined by mitigating circumstances that go beyond the simple facts of actuallity. For example, sometimes someone will react to their own action in accord with how they have been brought up to believe certain standards of cause and effect. They react to an adverse circumstance with destructive force, and bad things result, causing remorse and guilt. But legal guilt may be not forthcoming because the victim of your action may have contributed an abnormal ammount of influence on making the outcome happen. The guilt then becomes "He brought it on himself," and your guilt is assessed accordingly. God sometimes sends someone (an army, for example) to punish a nation for rebellion against God either in action or failure to act. Guilt may well result in members of the army God has raised up. God will take care of all that at the judgment. Yet sometimes suicide results from such guilt if not dealt with with compassion and understanding. And an understanding of God's dealings with men. (Carico) God made laws. The bible refers to anyone who breaks them as a lawbreaker. Suicide comes from not accepting Christ's atonement for one's sins. What you are doing is trying to justify breaking laws by claiming that one "couldn't help himself' so he is not guilty, others are. That is again blaming others for one's own wrongdoings. God doesn't look at it that way either. "To his own master, each man stands or falls." [;)] I was responding to the key element in the Original post: "All societies understand..." I was not addressing God's saving grace, nor Jesus' sacrifice, but the reaons for all societies haveing a similar understanding. Societies have a similar understanding because everyone knows inside that the primary interest of most criminal defendants is in saving their own lives. So justice cannot be objective if a criminal defendant is allowed to judge his own guilt. And neither can we humans be objective in determining whether God is just in dealing with us because we also want to come out on the high end of the stick in our own eyes. So we are not qualified to judge God.

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 8:42:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod quote: Not so with God. God will pardon every crime if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness. You forgot one VERY important requirement - repentance. One can admit they did wrong, feel guilty, and accept Jesus' forgiveness, but still not be saved. Accepting Jesus' sacrifice and wanting Jesus' sacrifice are two totally different things. One can accept it but not want it. IOW, one can feel bad all day long, but until they repent of their sins, they are merely a victim of their God-given conscious, soon to sear it with a hot iron. (theo) This is how repentence is defined: "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." If one turns from his deeds, (quits doing them) is remorseful (Feels sorry for doing them and accepts his forgiveness (indicates an ability to freely accept what was freely given, with understanding) he has in fact repented of his deeds.

GHitch -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 9:37:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico Only in man's eyes are there hierarchies of sin. Not so. While many of man's views of levels of sin are clearly wrong, Christ specifically pointed out that some sin is worse than others when he said 'the greater sin'. We also note that if all sins were equal then all punishment would be the same. But a quick view of the OT law tells us this is not the case. Robbery was not punishable by death for example while murder or rape was. We also have the testimony of God in Gen 18:20 quote: "Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,..." The text in James is enlightening on the nature of transgression. All transgression of any specific law implies a general disdain of the law and in that sense all sin is equal as to it's nature and cause. But guilt for sin is never equal. Guilt depends on knowledge. That's why the OT talks of "sins of ignorance". quote: So the point is that no human being is qualified to judge God because we are the defendants in His courtroom. I think we all agree on that. quote: And as far as suicide goes, those who commit suicide are claiming that God is a liar when he says he will not give us more than we can bear. And God is not a liar. So they obviously didn't trust God. No. As I pointed out, some suicides are due to mental illness. God alone knows just how ill and how conscious a person was of their own actions in the act of suicide. Blandly stating "they just didn't trust God" is too simplistic, not to mention a gross generalization, and it ignores the complexity of the human being involved. Would you bluntly tell the family of a suicide case that their dead son or daughter just didn't trust God? That would be adding cruel and unjust suffering to their grieving and broken heart. It would also constitute a grave error of judgment and a pretense to knowledge that only God possesses.

GHitch -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 9:43:45 AM)
Repentance has nothing to do with feelings of remorse or indeed feelings of any kind. It is entirely a matter of will or choice. Feelings may or may not accompany true repentance. True repentance is also more than mere admission of guilt. Many criminals admit their guilt but never repent of their deeds. True repentance is a fundamental change of heart. It is a change of heart from selfishness to good-willing and righteous living. Regret certainly always accompanies repentance, but regret is not repentance. The heart must change towards the self-centered attitude that led to sin.

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 10:01:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GHitch Repentance has nothing to do with feelings of remorse or indeed feelings of any kind. It is entirely a matter of will or choice. Feelings may or may not accompany true repentance. True repentance is also more than mere admission of guilt. Many criminals admit their guilt but never repent of their deeds. True repentance is a fundamental change of heart. It is a change of heart from selfishness to good-willing and righteous living. Regret certainly always accompanies repentance, but regret is not repentance. The heart must change towards the self-centered attitude that led to sin. Is there a difference between "repentance" and "TRUE repentance?" I did not know that. What is "false repentance?"

Carico -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 10:28:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GHitch quote: ORIGINAL: Carico Only in man's eyes are there hierarchies of sin. Not so. While many of man's views of levels of sin are clearly wrong, Christ specifically pointed out that some sin is worse than others when he said 'the greater sin'. We also note that if all sins were equal then all punishment would be the same. But a quick view of the OT law tells us this is not the case. Robbery was not punishable by death for example while murder or rape was. We also have the testimony of God in Gen 18:20 quote: "Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,..." The text in James is enlightening on the nature of transgression. All transgression of any specific law implies a general disdain of the law and in that sense all sin is equal as to it's nature and cause. But guilt for sin is never equal. Guilt depends on knowledge. That's why the OT talks of "sins of ignorance". quote: So the point is that no human being is qualified to judge God because we are the defendants in His courtroom. I think we all agree on that. quote: And as far as suicide goes, those who commit suicide are claiming that God is a liar when he says he will not give us more than we can bear. And God is not a liar. So they obviously didn't trust God. No. As I pointed out, some suicides are due to mental illness. God alone knows just how ill and how conscious a person was of their own actions in the act of suicide. Blandly stating "they just didn't trust God" is too simplistic, not to mention a gross generalization, and it ignores the complexity of the human being involved. Would you bluntly tell the family of a suicide case that their dead son or daughter just didn't trust God? That would be adding cruel and unjust suffering to their grieving and broken heart. It would also constitute a grave error of judgment and a pretense to knowledge that only God possesses. There are no hierarchies of sin in terms of determining man's guilt. Again, as James tells us even if we stumble once we're guilty of breaking the whole law. Punishments, on the other hand are determined by hierarchies of sin. I wouldn't tell the family of a suicide victim that his relative didn't trust God any more than I'd tell the family of a wolf in sheep's clothing this his relative wasn't in heaven either. Nevertheless, wolves in sheep's clothing go to hell just like any suicide who lacks faith in God. So your argument is moot because it doesn't make a suicide victim go to heaven.

Carico -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 10:31:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GHitch Repentance has nothing to do with feelings of remorse or indeed feelings of any kind. It is entirely a matter of will or choice. Feelings may or may not accompany true repentance. True repentance is also more than mere admission of guilt. Many criminals admit their guilt but never repent of their deeds. True repentance is a fundamental change of heart. It is a change of heart from selfishness to good-willing and righteous living. Regret certainly always accompanies repentance, but regret is not repentance. The heart must change towards the self-centered attitude that led to sin. Sorry, but once the inside of the cup is washed by the Holy Spirit, the outside will become clean as well. So true repentance does indeed come from the heart which is also where feelings come from. Jesus said, "For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Decisions come from our least stressful option. Thus if one is ruled by the devil, his decisions will be made from being deceived by Satan. The Pharisees made "decisions" to obey God, but their hearts had not been washed by the Holy Spirit. So they did not truly repent because they washed only the outside of the cup by their own hands. True repentance is when the heart and mind act in accordance with each other.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 1:39:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theo_book quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod quote: Not so with God. God will pardon every crime if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness. You forgot one VERY important requirement - repentance. One can admit they did wrong, feel guilty, and accept Jesus' forgiveness, but still not be saved. Accepting Jesus' sacrifice and wanting Jesus' sacrifice are two totally different things. One can accept it but not want it. IOW, one can feel bad all day long, but until they repent of their sins, they are merely a victim of their God-given conscious, soon to sear it with a hot iron. (theo) This is how repentence is defined: "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." If one turns from his deeds, (quits doing them) is remorseful (Feels sorry for doing them and accepts his forgiveness (indicates an ability to freely accept what was freely given, with understanding) he has in fact repented of his deeds. I respectfully disagree. GHich took the words right out of my mouth. Repentance is a CHANGE. Notice the bold I emphasized in your quote theo. It is a 180 degree u-turn from where you were to where you are now. Repentance is not just admitting you're wrong. Repentance is not simply feeling guilty. And repentance is not merely accepting something you don't want. Again, the definition "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness" is missing one very important requirement - CHANGE. Without it, one is just fooling himself. The reason I make this such a big deal is the fact that too many salvation messages preached these days are void of this vital requirement. People, such as myself, go to church, hear the preacher preach on salvation, admit I sinned, feel absolutely wretched about my sins, believe "in" Jesus.....but the next day I go right back to that same place I felt SO bad about the day before. I wasn't saved. One can "admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness" all day long, and still wake at the Great White Throne Judgment facing the Almighty God.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 1:41:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico quote: ORIGINAL: GHitch Repentance has nothing to do with feelings of remorse or indeed feelings of any kind. It is entirely a matter of will or choice. Feelings may or may not accompany true repentance. True repentance is also more than mere admission of guilt. Many criminals admit their guilt but never repent of their deeds. True repentance is a fundamental change of heart. It is a change of heart from selfishness to good-willing and righteous living. Regret certainly always accompanies repentance, but regret is not repentance. The heart must change towards the self-centered attitude that led to sin. Sorry, but once the inside of the cup is washed by the Holy Spirit, the outside will become clean as well. So true repentance does indeed come from the heart which is also where feelings come from. Jesus said, "For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Decisions come from our least stressful option. Thus if one is ruled by the devil, his decisions will be made from being deceived by Satan. The Pharisees made "decisions" to obey God, but their hearts had not been washed by the Holy Spirit. So they did not truly repent because they washed only the outside of the cup by their own hands. True repentance is when the heart and mind act in accordance with each other. So IOW, you're saying repentance is not a choice man can make???

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 4:23:10 PM)
quote: (theo) This is how repentence is defined: "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." If one turns from his deeds, (quits doing them) is remorseful (Feels sorry for doing them and accepts his forgiveness (indicates an ability to freely accept what was freely given, with understanding) he has in fact repented of his deeds. (every1needsgod) I respectfully disagree. Repentance is a CHANGE. Notice the bold I emphasized in your quote theo. It is a 180 degree u-turn from where you were to where you are now. (theo) No you don't. How does a "180 degree u-turn" differ from "one turns from his deeds?" I don't think you understand that simple statements of fact are as good as superlatives. I stated "One turns" and you say "I disagree" and offer "a 180 degree u-turn?" Surely you jest!

evry1needsgod -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 6:54:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theo_book quote: (theo) This is how repentence is defined: "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." If one turns from his deeds, (quits doing them) is remorseful (Feels sorry for doing them and accepts his forgiveness (indicates an ability to freely accept what was freely given, with understanding) he has in fact repented of his deeds. (every1needsgod) I respectfully disagree. Repentance is a CHANGE. Notice the bold I emphasized in your quote theo. It is a 180 degree u-turn from where you were to where you are now. (theo) No you don't. How does a "180 degree u-turn" differ from "one turns from his deeds?" I don't think you understand that simple statements of fact are as good as superlatives. I stated "One turns" and you say "I disagree" and offer "a 180 degree u-turn?" Surely you jest! I DEEPLY apologize theo. WOW, I completely screwed up the wording in that sentence. I meant to use that bold to evidence my point. My point was that the definition of repentance is not merely "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." but also requires a change, as you stated by the bold. But the definition, as listed, shows no repentance, and that is the point I was trying to make. This was a complete grammatical error on my part and for that I apologize. No jesting meant here.

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 7:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod quote: ORIGINAL: theo_book quote: (theo) This is how repentence is defined: "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." If one turns from his deeds, (quits doing them) is remorseful (Feels sorry for doing them and accepts his forgiveness (indicates an ability to freely accept what was freely given, with understanding) he has in fact repented of his deeds. (every1needsgod) I respectfully disagree. Repentance is a CHANGE. Notice the bold I emphasized in your quote theo. It is a 180 degree u-turn from where you were to where you are now. (theo) No you don't. How does a "180 degree u-turn" differ from "one turns from his deeds?" I don't think you understand that simple statements of fact are as good as superlatives. I stated "One turns" and you say "I disagree" and offer "a 180 degree u-turn?" Surely you jest! I DEEPLY apologize theo. WOW, I completely screwed up the wording in that sentence. I meant to use that bold to evidence my point. My point was that the definition of repentance is not merely "if we simply admit it as a crime, feel remorse for it and accept His forgiveness." but also requires a change, as you stated by the bold. But the definition, as listed, shows no repentance, and that is the point I was trying to make. This was a complete grammatical error on my part and for that I apologize. No jesting meant here. Absotively posilutely no offense taken. [:)] And I think we are in agreement. Leaving the old way of sin and beginning a new way of obedience, by any other description, is still repentence. And we both understand it is necessary for any consideration of forgiveness.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 8:13:30 PM)
quote: Absotively posilutely no offense taken. And I think we are in agreement. Leaving the old way of sin and beginning a new way of obedience, by any other description, is still repentence. And we both understand it is necessary for any consideration of forgiveness. So do we FINALLY agree on something???

Carico -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 11:01:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod quote: ORIGINAL: Carico quote: ORIGINAL: GHitch Repentance has nothing to do with feelings of remorse or indeed feelings of any kind. It is entirely a matter of will or choice. Feelings may or may not accompany true repentance. True repentance is also more than mere admission of guilt. Many criminals admit their guilt but never repent of their deeds. True repentance is a fundamental change of heart. It is a change of heart from selfishness to good-willing and righteous living. Regret certainly always accompanies repentance, but regret is not repentance. The heart must change towards the self-centered attitude that led to sin. Sorry, but once the inside of the cup is washed by the Holy Spirit, the outside will become clean as well. So true repentance does indeed come from the heart which is also where feelings come from. Jesus said, "For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Decisions come from our least stressful option. Thus if one is ruled by the devil, his decisions will be made from being deceived by Satan. The Pharisees made "decisions" to obey God, but their hearts had not been washed by the Holy Spirit. So they did not truly repent because they washed only the outside of the cup by their own hands. True repentance is when the heart and mind act in accordance with each other. So IOW, you're saying repentance is not a choice man can make??? Repentance only comes when man is backed against a wall. Pride is the most common and difficult sin to break. Jesus said; "He who falls on the capstone will be broken in pieces. But he upon whom it falls will be crushed." Jacob actually wrestled with God until God broke his hip. Paul was on his way to round up Christians to be murdered when he was transformed by the Holy Spirit. Moses said; "Who am I lord?" Jonah tried to run from God. Jeremiah said; "I am only a child" . So no, as Romans 3:11 says, "There is no one righteous not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Humans don't choose God. God chooses them by overpowering us with His Spirit. [;)]

evry1needsgod -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/26/2008 11:16:42 PM)
quote: Repentance only comes when man is backed against a wall. Pride is the most common and difficult sin to break. Jesus said; "He who falls on the capstone will be broken in pieces. But he upon whom it falls will be crushed." Jacob actually wrestled with God until God broke his hip. Paul was on his way to round up Christians to be murdered when he was transformed by the Holy Spirit. Moses said; "Who am I lord?" Jonah tried to run from God. Jeremiah said; "I am only a child" . So no, as Romans 3:11 says, "There is no one righteous not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Humans don't choose God. God chooses them by overpowering us with His Spirit. This is the typical Calvinistic ideology that is simply wrong. God does not choose who is saved. He chooses to conform those who are saved to the good works of Jesus Christ. What you have stated above takes away our free will. This is un-Biblical, but I will leave that alone, because there is a thread on that subject. We are not robots, as Calvin teaches.

theo_book -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/27/2008 9:13:07 AM)
quote: (Carico) Repentance only comes when man is backed against a wall. So no, as Romans 3:11 says, "There is no one righteous not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Humans don't choose God. God chooses them by overpowering us with His Spirit. [;)] The Jews thought that because they had God, and the Gentiles did not, the Jews somehow had some advantage over the Gentiles. Paul was addressing that issue by reminding the Jews that they had no advantage because of the many times they had corrupted themselves in falling away from their covenant with God. So Paul quotes Psalm 14, and 53, both of which reference people who HAD once BEEN righteous, and CHANGED to BECOME FILTHY. He is not saying no one has ever been righteous. He is saying that man under the law has no advantage over the man who was never under the law, because the man under the law did not keep it. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all GONE ASIDE, they are all together BECOME FILTHY: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." [Psa 14:1-3] "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is GONE BACK: they are altogether BECOME FILTHY; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." [Psa 53:1-3] Gentiles on the other hand, all sinned, but the sins were not charged against them because they had no such laws, and where there is no law, sin is not counted against them. "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." [Rom 5:13] So Paul is simply telling the Saints at Rome, why the Gentiles and Jews are all in the same boat, i.,e., all have need lf the saving grace of the blood of Christ. And since the gospel of Christ went into all the world, many who sin repent as soon as their sin comes to their attention. They have no "back to the wall" issues whatsoever. Today there are many who seek God, and strive to attain unto righteousness.

GHitch -> RE: Why are criminal defendants not allowed to judge their own guilt? (7/27/2008 12:40:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theo_book Is there a difference between "repentance" and "TRUE repentance?" I did not know that. What is "false repentance?" Indeed there is. False repentance is like false Xians. Simple huh. Are there 'false brethren'? Indeed there are. So is there false repentance? Yes. False conversion? Sure. False prophecy? Of course. Whatever God works, the enemy imitates to deceive through outward appearances. False repentance abounds and anyone who has been in the church for while has no doubt seen it. You can tell the real from the false in many ways : True repentance causes a reformation of conduct. True repentance leads to confession and restitution. True repentance is a permanent change of character and conduct. 'fruit worthy of repentance' Mat 3:8 Do those things that prove you have turned to God and have changed the way you think and act. GW Mat 3:8 Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance! ISV Mat 3:8 Therefore let your lives prove your change of heart; WNT False repentance is founded in selfishness. Usually a desire to escape punishment alone rather than seeing the selfishness of the act and the harm it causes False repentance produces only a partial reformation of conduct. No reformation = no real repentance False repentance produces only a temporary change - which then results in the persons falling into the same sin worse than before afterwards.

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