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bluestone -> When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/24/2008 9:04:58 AM)

I am hoping there are denominational leaders here who can respond to this, as well as everyone else.

How do you handle situations where an ordained minister just can't seem to get it together and do his job? The guy who can't seem to preach a coherent sermon, the one that won't take care of business, or the guy with zero people skills?

my denomination tends to just move them around from church to church.
Our district leader never told us the potential pastor we were interviewing had been voted out of all four of his previous pastorates. We are not allowed to investigate or check them out, have to go on the leadership's word.[:@] This man was not in any sin situations. He just could not do the job. We found out about his past as our laity was getting ready to bring him up for a recall vote.

How does your church or denomination handle pastors who are incompetent or perhaps just lazy?



DaveW -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/24/2008 10:09:42 AM)

Anyone can appeal something right up the chain of command. Any charge against a leader would require multiple witnesses.

Our network is small enough that if a congregation has a serious problem, most of the rest of the congregations know about it, at least at the elder and deacon level.

I do think your denomination is remiss in not allowing a full investigation of a potential pastor.



rcjames -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/24/2008 1:09:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
How does your church or denomination handle pastors who are incompetent or perhaps just lazy?


Our denomination (actually the local conference, the one I work with has well over a hundred Church) vetts, backgrounds, and ordains someone to be qualifed as a potential Pastor.

The Local Church is encjouraged to vet, background, etc all that the local Church thinks is necessary and then to put the potnetial Pastor up for a vote by the membership.

When a Pastor is in place, the District (denomination) investigates all complaints they recieve from members of the Church in question. Now as to moral terpitude the penalty can be a suspension of liscense for up to two years with oversight, counselling, etc. before they are considered again as Pastor material. If the offense is sufficient the ordination can be revoked and the person will never preach again in the denomination.

Now as to a Pastor being "Lazy", since lazy is in the eye of the beholder, the complaints are investigated, and if any correction needs to be done it is done. Plean note, the correction may need to be done to the member who just did not like the Pastor and was trying to get them in trouble.

One of my duties for the denomination is that of "Baby Splitter", I investigate problems that arise in Churches, interview all concerned, listen to teaching tape, and forwarward a reccomendation to the denomination.

On the rare occasion (as happened ealier this year) I will call the denomination, report from the Church and take appropriate action. In this case I took the ordination papers from the Pastor and he was removed immediatly. His his infraction was teaching "Inclusiveness" and refusing not to teach it the next time he taught. Since inclusiveness is considered heresy by my denomination; he was terminated with extreme prejudice.

I think it works very well.

Thanks
RC



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/24/2008 1:42:12 PM)

What does your denomination consider to be "Inclusiveness"?
and why would he refuse to stop teaching it if his ordination was on the line?



rcjames -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/24/2008 5:02:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

What does your denomination consider to be "Inclusiveness"?
and why would he refuse to stop teaching it if his ordination was on the line?


Inclusivenss is the belief that all folks who are seeking a spiritual relationship with a higher being will be saved; regardless of whether or not they believe in Jeus Christ. That would include Eastern Religions, Wicca, Islam, etc.

He told me that he throroughly believed that to be the case and refused to be re-educated. He had been listening to and studying under some late night radio preacher and just got confused. He was offered counselling, professional help, etc. and he steadfastly refused. He had been a Pastor with another denomination and ours for over 15 years before he torked off into never never land.

A perfect example of why true accountability is so important.

Thanks
RC



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 8:31:52 AM)

Thanks, RC. I agree about accountability. Amazing that someone can go off on a tangent that is clearly against scripture.



revbob4God -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 8:45:42 AM)

Theres always at least one crazy who has to tork off to left field. But, for the most part, I think it is important for the pastor to communicate with his church. Pastors who ignore the church members don't get very far. You have to reach em to teach em. However, I have to suggest that if you find you are getting a slew of bad pastors, you need to carefully screen these people before you place them in the role of being your Pastor.

I do have a question for bluestone, exactly what form of incompetence are we talking about?



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 9:06:51 AM)

My denomination does not allow us to "check out" potential pastors. The superintendent will bring a candidate to interview and preach a mini sermon. you choose him or loose him, and if you let him go, it may be a while before another is brought your way. [:@]

incompetence in this case was a guy who :
was late for morning services. constantly. Music director kept everyone singing until he rushed in the back door and zoomed up the isle to the pulpit. He told the board he is not a "Morning person"

cancelled Sunrise services, New Year's watch night services, etc. due to his dislike of early or late services. He and his family need a lot or rest, he said.

decided to have laypeople lead Wed. night services in the spring. He always sat in the back and seemed to disappear. Someone followed him. He was leaving after the service started to go attend his kid's soccer games.

NEVER was at the office, and would not tell the secretary where he was going. Turned out it was the golf course, and back home for a nap.

Did not show up for a wedding his was officiating at. He said he forgot. Although he was at the rehearsal dinner the night before. Another preacher was a guest, and wound up doing the service.

Late for two funerals.

Blatantly refused to do hospital visitation. He may catch something and bring it home to his family.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 11:23:57 AM)

All that in one pastor, Blue? Good night! That sounds like a litany for several badly-behaved pastors.

Well, at least there is some choice in your congregation. In my old one, we got what we got, and we had better not say one word about it. There were no votes, no choices. And we had nothing whatsoever to say about how the church money was used. Or about anything else.



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 11:27:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

All that in one pastor, Blue? Good night! That sounds like a litany for several badly-behaved pastors.



well, he did not steal, cheat on his wife, or dip snuff. Those things take effort. I suppose we were blessed in a way.[8D]

It was all one pastor, and honestly, I have neither before or since seen one like that.



crankius -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 11:36:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

My denomination does not allow us to "check out" potential pastors. The superintendent will bring a candidate to interview and preach a mini sermon. you choose him or loose him, and if you let him go, it may be a while before another is brought your way. [:@]

incompetence in this case was a guy who :
was late for morning services. constantly. Music director kept everyone singing until he rushed in the back door and zoomed up the isle to the pulpit. He told the board he is not a "Morning person"

cancelled Sunrise services, New Year's watch night services, etc. due to his dislike of early or late services. He and his family need a lot or rest, he said.

decided to have laypeople lead Wed. night services in the spring. He always sat in the back and seemed to disappear. Someone followed him. He was leaving after the service started to go attend his kid's soccer games.

NEVER was at the office, and would not tell the secretary where he was going. Turned out it was the golf course, and back home for a nap.

Did not show up for a wedding his was officiating at. He said he forgot. Although he was at the rehearsal dinner the night before. Another preacher was a guest, and wound up doing the service.

Late for two funerals.

Blatantly refused to do hospital visitation. He may catch something and bring it home to his family.


[&:]

He seems to be missing one of the primary Biblical qualifications for being an elder--a desire to shepherd the people eagerly and willingly.



Ps103 -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 11:57:42 AM)

I was a member of a Lutheran church that had a pastor assigned by the Bishop who sounds much like the guy you described, Blue. Except I am not aware that he ever missed a wedding.

His basic problem was that he wanted to be a golf pro, but was not good enough, and he honestly thought being a pastor would be a one day per week job and he could work on his game[8|]

He did come into the office every day, but he sent a couple of hours stretching and preparing for his run, two hours to run, then an hour or so to recover from running. And don't forget a lunch hour. Then there were golf games--lots and lots of golf games.

If someone in the church started looking peaked, he packed his family up and went on vacation. He could not stand to visit people in the hospital, and to my knowledge never did a funeral. That was just as well, because he was not at all "pastor-like," and families got no comfort or anything approaching pastoral care from him.

His wife was an organist wanna-be, and the church had a magnificent pipe organ. She applied for the job, claiming she had a degree in music perfomance. The school she claimed to have gotten this degree from was a now-defunct business college that did not even offer a course in music appreciation--much less a course in performance for any instrument. But he ram-rodded her into the position of organist and choir-master, and the Bishop encouraged the church to go along with it. The results would have been highly comical had they not been so sad.

The Bishop was trying to help him, and encouraged everyone who complained to him (and there were *many* complaints) to be patient and give him a chance. What happened instead was that after over a year with no change whatsoever, and the guy getting a major attitude, the membership dropped from 600 to 200.

The last "sermon" I heard was on stewardship. With the massive drop in membership, and the deaths of four members, the giving was down to almost nothing, and he didn't like that. So he berated the remaining members. I had enough and left.

About two months later, there was some construction near the church and a gas line was severed and caused an explosion. The *only* part of the church that was damaged was his office, which was destroyed. (of course he was unhurt--he was never in his office.) Had it been me, I would have taken that as a warning from God...

That synod no longer exists. The church is still there, and the pastor they have now seems good. I have been back for Baptisms and funerals.

I googled the guy's name and nothing comes up under either pastor or golf pro. Not sure what happened to him, but when the synod was gone, the Bishop who was trying to help him retired, so he lost his champion.



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 12:06:45 PM)

The Methodist church I was in had a very similar pastor. Well, it's a little backwoods country church that, until about 10 yrs ago was part of a 4-church charge (4 churches, 1 pastor). You can imagine who got saddled with that.

Anyway, his wife worked so he had the kids all day and would take them on hospital visits. Gave book and movie reviews instead of sermons. Wouldn't visit the shut-ins or take them Communion. He was just super goofy and not cut out to be a pastor. 10 years of complaining to District Superintendents and the conference before he was moved.



crankius -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 12:33:50 PM)

I served under an assistant pastor who also had an unknown past. Once we got him (he was friends with the head pastor[8|], which made it more difficult to address the issues), we found out he had caused a church split and already had issues in previous churches. After many difficulties with him, my husband and I left. I know later they brought the seminary in to help, and the seminary tried, and then concluded that he couldn't be helped. The church kept him anyway though.

As many of you may remember, I didn't see him for a few years, until he showed up at our church we attend now.

That was a mess. [8D]


I do wish very much that the church took more seriously the Biblical qualifications for being an elder, and that the church had better ways of addressing these issues.

Once one church gets rid of the bad apple, they seem very reluctant to give honest testimony regarding the man, and there is no way then to establish if the man has an honest good reputation above repute as the Bible instructs for elders.



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 12:37:55 PM)

so true.
Anyone who voices concern on golf pros in the pulpit normally become labeled as a gossip and troublemaker.



hjemerson -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 3:09:09 PM)

This is so true for so many chruchs looking for pastor they never really look past all the talk I feel for the church that a group of people not even local pick the pastor and the church(the People) have no choice. I do not know if I could set under a person that is just in it for the (show or money)Maybe if a group of the church would form communitt and face to face with the person (I would not even call him a pastor) and have the fact and let him know that this was not going to be the way things are done he would seek another job! As for your D Leader do they not see if the people are unhappy they will leave, then the support for the church goes, May time to start a new church in you area? What evey do not just let him get pasted on to someone else. ( O well I am Baptist and we do thigs drifferent.)



rcjames -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/25/2008 3:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjemerson

This is so true for so many chruchs looking for pastor they never really look past all the talk I feel for the church that a group of people not even local pick the pastor and the church(the People) have no choice. I do not know if I could set under a person that is just in it for the (show or money)Maybe if a group of the church would form communitt and face to face with the person (I would not even call him a pastor) and have the fact and let him know that this was not going to be the way things are done he would seek another job! As for your D Leader do they not see if the people are unhappy they will leave, then the support for the church goes, May time to start a new church in you area? What evey do not just let him get pasted on to someone else. ( O well I am Baptist and we do thigs drifferent.)


There is never too much vetting when choosing a pastor (or deacons or elders) that will meet the Biblical standards;

((1Ti 3:1) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

(1Ti 3:2) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

(1Ti 3:3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

(1Ti 3:6) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

(1Ti 3:7) Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

(1Ti 3:8) Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

(1Ti 3:9) Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

(1Ti 3:10) And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

(1Ti 3:11) Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

(1Ti 3:12) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

(1Ti 3:13) For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The massive number of our Churches that have leadership that do not meet these standaerd is absolutely astounding. And they we all wring our hands and say, "What in the world happened?".

Thanks
RC



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/26/2008 12:17:34 PM)

Good points, RC.

Too many are pastors because grandma had her heart set on the guy being her little "preacher boy".

Others figured they could not hack it in the business world.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/26/2008 12:49:41 PM)

Hey, my mother called me to the ministry -- me and one of my brothers -- and look what it got us! She was always very perturbed that we didn't answer her call. [:D] Even Father told me I'd missed my calling. Funny thing is, the Most Important One never told me that was what I was to do.



iluvatar -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/26/2008 11:49:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

My denomination does not allow us to "check out" potential pastors. The superintendent will bring a candidate to interview and preach a mini sermon. you choose him or loose him, and if you let him go, it may be a while before another is brought your way. [:@]

incompetence in this case was a guy who :
was late for morning services. constantly. Music director kept everyone singing until he rushed in the back door and zoomed up the isle to the pulpit. He told the board he is not a "Morning person"

cancelled Sunrise services, New Year's watch night services, etc. due to his dislike of early or late services. He and his family need a lot or rest, he said.

decided to have laypeople lead Wed. night services in the spring. He always sat in the back and seemed to disappear. Someone followed him. He was leaving after the service started to go attend his kid's soccer games.

NEVER was at the office, and would not tell the secretary where he was going. Turned out it was the golf course, and back home for a nap.

Did not show up for a wedding his was officiating at. He said he forgot. Although he was at the rehearsal dinner the night before. Another preacher was a guest, and wound up doing the service.

Late for two funerals.

Blatantly refused to do hospital visitation. He may catch something and bring it home to his family.


I'd start going around to the other churches and organizing some sort of rebellion against the denominational leadership. I think they'd be hard pressed to explain how their conduct constitutes sound biblical leadership.

-Dan.



cwb -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/27/2008 1:09:23 AM)

You can cook for yourself, or get another to do it for you once a week.

The minister is a spiritual chef. He takes the raw ingredients - the Word, and he then assembles selected text to make a spiritual 'dish'.

As long as the food is pure, it will nourish your spirit. Surely it might not be as enjoyable as another chef's cooking, but if it is pure (nothing but the Word), it will then sustain you.

If the taste is really not good, go to another restaurant. Or stay home and cook for yourself.

If of course it isn't the Word, why do you still feed there?



Ps103 -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/27/2008 10:44:53 PM)

quote:

The minister is a spiritual chef. He takes the raw ingredients - the Word, and he then assembles selected text to make a spiritual 'dish'.


That sounds really good, Chuck, but unless the pastor is called by God, the ingredients are less than pure...



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/28/2008 8:30:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cwb

You can cook for yourself, or get another to do it for you once a week.

The minister is a spiritual chef. He takes the raw ingredients - the Word, and he then assembles selected text to make a spiritual 'dish'.

As long as the food is pure, it will nourish your spirit. Surely it might not be as enjoyable as another chef's cooking, but if it is pure (nothing but the Word), it will then sustain you.

If the taste is really not good, go to another restaurant. Or stay home and cook for yourself.

If of course it isn't the Word, why do you still feed there?


the problem is the chef not showing up for his shift at the eatery. Not what he cooks[8|]



rcjames -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/28/2008 9:56:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
decided to have laypeople lead Wed. night services in the spring. He always sat in the back and seemed to disappear. Someone followed him. He was leaving after the service started to go attend his kid's soccer games.


You have got to be kidding me; "Someone followed him"?

What kink of folks do you have at that church?

Thanks
RC



bluestone -> RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue (7/28/2008 9:59:46 AM)

yes, a board member followed him.
we had people that were at the end of the rope with this guy.



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