where are the men? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Faith] >> Ministry Leaders



Message

backrowbaptist -> where are the men? (7/23/2008 5:57:26 PM)

A layMAN's question
Have you faced this situation in your church? If so, how do you approach the problem (if you see it as a problem, that is)?
• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.
• On any given Sunday there are 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches.
• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
• Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants.
• The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).
• As many as 90 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it by their 20th birthday. Many of these boys will never return.
• More than 90 percent of American men believe in God, and five out of six call themselves Christians. But only two out of six attend church on a given Sunday. The average man accepts the reality of Jesus Christ, but fails to see any value in going to church.
Full article - http://www.churchformen.com/allmen.php
It's worse in the UK- http://www.whychurch.org.uk/gendergap.php



mvic -> RE: where are the men? (7/23/2008 6:06:00 PM)

I was just about to comment on the UK when I noticed your specific weblink.

Here in the UK church attendances are falling. I think partly because we are becoming a secular society.

Also, I feel we have very few Christian role models.



RJR_fan -> RE: where are the men? (7/23/2008 8:54:24 PM)

Revivalism, with its emphasis on emoting and moralizing, deformed Christianity in this country, and made it far less attractive to men.

Reformed (Calvinist) churches seem to do a better job of attracting men, and of keeping the next generation.



funny_girl -> RE: where are the men? (7/23/2008 10:30:20 PM)

It's the same way in Latin America. Women seem to be more likely to attend church. RJR, interesting post.



RJR_fan -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 3:38:00 AM)

quote:

Women seem to be more likely to attend church.


The guy who "wrote the book" on this topic is Catholic scholar Leon Podles. Here is a review of his book, an article with the provocative time Is Christianity Just for Women and Sissies? Let me quote from the article:

quote:

Well before the dislocations of culturally approved feminism and homosexuality, the founder of Christianity had been domesticated into a strangely androgynous being in Christian devotional literature. Nearly everybody has had sufficient exposure to Sunday school art to be aware of the strange incongruity of the carpenter from Galilee – who must have had weathered skin and enlarged hands like others of his craft – being portrayed with womanly hair and skin, looking more like an advertisement for hair coloring treatments than an atavistic Jewish male.


Podles' amazing book The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity is a scholarly, but passionate, battle cry. We need, he writes, more Christian artists like the writer of Beowulf, a tract addressed to men who would rather be heroes than Christians. This oldest English epic celebrates a warrior saint who was both.



DaveW -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 6:44:52 AM)

Derek Prince (who used to be a major sponsor of this site before he went home) was a philosophy professor at Eaton College (England) prior to WW2. He was an athiest and considered Christianity "...a religion for old women of both genders."

That attitude is not just American and not just in the last few decades.



timf -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 7:21:45 AM)

where are the men?

Satan rules this world (as much as God allows him). Satan has a centuries old plan to collectivize the world so that he can leverage his influence. There are several key elements to this plan that we can clearly observe.

1. Destruction of the family. Women did not get the right to vote, men lost the right to speak for their families. What passes for a family today is a house with four roommates, two older and two younger all "working outside the house. If it was not for the opiate of TV, such an existence would much more frequently lead to suicide.

2. Technology dependency. The creation of a society that cannot function without coal and oil and the electricity and machines that come from them. Like the tower of Babel, we are drawn into interdependent collective systems.

3. Government dependency. The creation of a "society" is the elevation of people over God. This is the heart of the religion of secularism (the worship of man in general and self in particular). Government becomes a replacement god.

4. Education. The way to quickly enslave a society is to indoctrinate the children into the system. 12 years of telling boys to "shut up, sit, down, and do what you are told" is sufficient to prepare men for lives in their job, church, and home.

Men respond to alien and hostile environments by either engaging in combat or withdrawal. What is so sad is that most churches act as agents for this artificial world Satan has created. They arrogantly say they offer Jesus, when what they really offer is just another variation of an organized system that tells them to "shut up, sit down, do what you are told, and write a check.

An older wiser Christian man should guide a younger Christian man as to how to walk by the Holy Spirit, how to draw wisdom from God, how to love his wife and children, how to lead in his home, and how to resist the influence and corruption of the world. Instead most churches tell both men to shut up, sit down, and do what they are told. Most churches are systems of control and regulation they seem almost designed to quench the relationships where Christians could minister to each other.

Most men see church as a boring waste of time. Why would you want to sit and listen to a lecture when you could be out doing something you like. Rather than seeing men as disinterested in Jesus, we should ask why are our churches are so much like the world that no one can see Jesus?



RJR_fan -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 7:34:52 AM)

quote:

What is so sad is that most churches act as agents for this artificial world Satan has created.


The Southern Baptist Convention is cool with the indoctrination of its children into the glories of sodomy, K-12. Not even the imposition of "gay-affirming" curricula in California public schools was reason enough for the SBC to sound the alarm. A resolution calling upon California parents to "jump ship" and rescue their kids from public education never made it out of committee.

God uses remnants to re-arrange history. Today, in the USA, there are millions of fathers who are providing a different model of manhood. Rather than imitating the Ayatollah Komheni, and sending their minor children into grown-up battles, these fathers are providing for their families, protecting their wives from the stresses of the workforce and their children from indoctrination into an alien religion.

The home school movement is also a reclamation of Biblical manhood. Lively churches find ways to encourage men in this. Where that encouragement is lacking, some guys are straying into the "home church" zone. Which is a pity, since "church," "family," and "civil government" are discrete spheres.

Where are the Christian men? The manly ones, that is? Home schooling their kids, is where.

quote:

The way to quickly enslave a society is to indoctrinate the children into the system. 12 years of telling boys to "shut up, sit, down, and do what you are told" is sufficient to prepare men for lives in their job, church, and home.


John Taylor Gatto's book The underground history of American education supports this thesis at great and detailed length. You can read it for free here -- but it's worth buying as well.



URForgiven -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 10:06:19 AM)

Many good responses here already. I would add that society in general, and many church services specifically has become feminized. Hence the advent of the various mens movements that have developed within Christianity.

This feminization is not necessarily a bad thing. I am sure it is only transitional, as we move from a male dominated society towards equality. As always, our species, moves from one extreme to the other before eventually settling somewhere in the middle.

...it is a rather difficult and confusing time to be a man though. [sm=crazy.gif]

Peace



RJR_fan -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 6:43:34 PM)

quote:

This feminization is not necessarily a bad thing. I am sure it is only transitional, as we move from a male dominated society towards equality.


Dude! Sorry to disappoint you, but the universe is hierarchical. Jesus does not resent His functional subordination to the Father in the economy of salvation, and godly wives delight in their diaconal roles in the family structure. The "equality" you seem to pine for is a satanic delusion, that resulted in rivers of blood spilled upon the earth in that most evil of centuries, the 20th.

People are different. Not equal in height, weight, intelligence, or gender. When we reflect that the duality of humanity reflects God's image, we can ask whose bright idea it is to try to confuse the differences. (pause to fan the acrid stench of brimstone out of the room ... )

Something about the interplay between male and female reveals mysteries concerning our Triune God.

And I have to admit -- the differences between me and my wife still keep me excited, after 30 years of marriage!

Fie upon equality! Let God be God, and let men be men, and let their wives rejoice in both of those facts!



URForgiven -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 7:13:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

quote:

This feminization is not necessarily a bad thing. I am sure it is only transitional, as we move from a male dominated society towards equality.


Dude! Sorry to disappoint you, but the universe is hierarchical. Jesus does not resent His functional subordination to the Father in the economy of salvation, and godly wives delight in their diaconal roles in the family structure. The "equality" you seem to pine for is a satanic delusion, that resulted in rivers of blood spilled upon the earth in that most evil of centuries, the 20th.

People are different. Not equal in height, weight, intelligence, or gender. When we reflect that the duality of humanity reflects God's image, we can ask whose bright idea it is to try to confuse the differences. (pause to fan the acrid stench of brimstone out of the room ... )

Something about the interplay between male and female reveals mysteries concerning our Triune God.

And I have to admit -- the differences between me and my wife still keep me excited, after 30 years of marriage!

Fie upon equality! Let God be God, and let men be men, and let their wives rejoice in both of those facts!


My friend you have gone way beyond what I have written to extrapolate a whole theology which was never even suggested. The point was the feminizing of worship. I am glad though, that I could provide you with a platform from which to make your own theology so well known.

Peace



mvic -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 7:41:04 PM)

Timf:

"Most men see church as a boring waste of time. Why would you want to sit and listen to a lecture when you could be out doing something you like. Rather than seeing men as disinterested in Jesus, we should ask why are our churches so much like the world that no one can see Jesus?"

Sadly, you are right. Churches (some) are no longer inspirational. Their pastors/priests etc ... in some cases are no longer leading but following doctrines and edicts from their hierarchies. Priesthood is a career !!!

URForgiven:

" ...it is a rather difficult and confusing time to be a man though."

That may be so ... but men still have their uses. Who will catch the spiders when they fall in the bath?



backrowbaptist -> RE: where are the men? (7/24/2008 11:08:41 PM)

I saw this trend happening years ago. I have a story. In the early '90's I was part of a large, dynamic career group at a large ev. church. Just about every meeting there was some kind of male-bashing comment(s) made by either the pastor or the women leaders in the group. I held my tounge, for the most part. Then came a two-part series on dating by a female psychologist. The first part was on what men want from women. the speaker took about 1/2 hour and did a pretty good job. The second part was what women expect from men. This took 1 1/2 hours! I could hold my tongue no longer. I raised my hand, pointed out the discrepency between the difference in time spent on expectations, and basically said this was the reason I didn't date women from that church. I also said that if the male bashing trend continued, they would lose a lot of men. Predictably, my comments were met with a large ammount of scorn, both during and after the meeting, from both men and women. But a funny thing happened. Five or so of the guys in the group came to me afterwards and thanked me for speaking up, that I was right on the money, and marveled that I had the courage to stand up. It was right then and there that I knew there was an attack on christian men by the enemy. So the lack of men in churches today does not surprise me.



BibleL7 -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 6:18:39 AM)

Well lets see you have males being drugged up for being boys, men being told they are worthless and domineering by women, and then women always saying they want nice sensitive men on talk shows then to find out after we try to become what women say they want we find that other women never got the message of what they were supposed to want. Not to mention all the false info of what church is about that makes it sound like sissy stuff. There is absolutely no reason a guy would want to go to church, unless he is told the truth of what it is really about and sees that real men believe in Jesus. Not to mention the factor that men are being told the bible is wrong for saying wives should submit to husbands and that is why it is out dated and irrelevant, Why would any guy bother to read it. And of course it is only women wanting their way and their power over men just as the curse at the fall said it would be. I regret all those years of supporting Women's rights movements now but damage is done. Pray for men in this world.



revbob4God -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 7:55:48 AM)

This is an interesting question.
I believe it is a questiion clergy will have to continue to pray about and address as the years unfold. At our congregation, men seem to be coming to services quite a bit more, maybe due to redefinition of what services are or need to include. I have always believed that the Bible has to come alive and be applied in regular, down to earth Terms for people to catch on and understand. This seems to help.



kernsfamily -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 9:23:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
A layMAN's question
Have you faced this situation in your church? If so, how do you approach the problem (if you see it as a problem, that is)?
• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.
• On any given Sunday there are 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches.
• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
• Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants.
• As many as 90 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it by their 20th birthday. Many of these boys will never return.
• More than 90 percent of American men believe in God, and five out of six call themselves Christians. But only two out of six attend church on a given Sunday. The average man accepts the reality of Jesus Christ, but fails to see any value in going to church.
Full article - http://www.churchformen.com/allmen.php
It's worse in the UK- http://www.whychurch.org.uk/gendergap.php


I've heard of "statistics" like these before....and, then I go to church, and I see men. Alot of men. It is unusual to see a wife at church without her husband (except if he is out of town on business, sick or some other legitimate reason....)
Our men's ministry friday morning bible study has an attendance of about 700 each and every week.....we had a men's retreat weekend a few months ago.....1300+ showed up.....

perhaps we're not the "typical" U.S. congregation....but, then, I knew that already......

quote:

• The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).


Men are typically expected to be the "sole income provider" for their families. Unfortunately, being a church employee does NOT pay as well as secular businesses typically do. I know. There was a position for someone in my field available at church a few years back. So, of course, I e-mailed my resume...and was able to talk with the person responsible for hiring for that position. The pay was low. Very low. I hadn't earned a salary at that level in years (before I was married). I have 3 kids and a wife to support today....and, I am not "materialistic"....have no debt....and, actually have a fairly "average" income as it is. The income to be earned in church positions are certainly aimed at those who are "secondary providers" of income.



kernsfamily -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 9:31:47 AM)

quote:

Where are the Christian men? The manly ones, that is? Home schooling their kids, is where.


get off of it.....it is OFF TOPIC...

There are plenty of Christian men volunteering at our neighborhood school EACH and EVERY day (on any given week, Iam there twice at some point or another).....being "leaders" and "mentors" to ALL KIDS from the community......

Want to know what a Christian man is? FYI.....it is a man who seeks God's guidance in any and all decisions....then, follows God's lead when it comes time to make that decision.....and, doesn't belittle others because God's plan for their life is different from others.....

and, you know what? God has blessed us immensely for following His lead to have our kids educated where they are........regardless of any propaganda you may read.....much to your dismay



zoebob -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 9:33:13 AM)

Our church is pretty well split but I think we are better than average. I skimmed through our church directory and it was a pretty even split between single men adn single women. I know of only 2 families where the wife comes without their husband.



revbob4God -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 5:38:45 PM)

quote:

I saw this trend happening years ago. I have a story. In the early '90's I was part of a large, dynamic career group at a large ev. church. Just about every meeting there was some kind of male-bashing comment(s) made by either the pastor or the women leaders in the group. I held my tounge, for the most part. Then came a two-part series on dating by a female psychologist. The first part was on what men want from women. the speaker took about 1/2 hour and did a pretty good job. The second part was what women expect from men. This took 1 1/2 hours! I could hold my tongue no longer. I raised my hand, pointed out the discrepency between the difference in time spent on expectations, and basically said this was the reason I didn't date women from that church. I also said that if the male bashing trend continued, they would lose a lot of men. Predictably, my comments were met with a large ammount of scorn, both during and after the meeting, from both men and women. But a funny thing happened. Five or so of the guys in the group came to me afterwards and thanked me for speaking up, that I was right on the money, and marveled that I had the courage to stand up. It was right then and there that I knew there was an attack on christian men by the enemy. So the lack of men in churches today does not surprise me.


Son, I applaud your courage, but wonder how you survived, steering into a hornet's nest like that.



backrowbaptist -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 7:48:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: revbob4God

quote:

I saw this trend happening years ago. I have a story. In the early '90's I was part of a large, dynamic career group at a large ev. church. Just about every meeting there was some kind of male-bashing comment(s) made by either the pastor or the women leaders in the group. I held my tounge, for the most part. Then came a two-part series on dating by a female psychologist. The first part was on what men want from women. the speaker took about 1/2 hour and did a pretty good job. The second part was what women expect from men. This took 1 1/2 hours! I could hold my tongue no longer. I raised my hand, pointed out the discrepency between the difference in time spent on expectations, and basically said this was the reason I didn't date women from that church. I also said that if the male bashing trend continued, they would lose a lot of men. Predictably, my comments were met with a large ammount of scorn, both during and after the meeting, from both men and women. But a funny thing happened. Five or so of the guys in the group came to me afterwards and thanked me for speaking up, that I was right on the money, and marveled that I had the courage to stand up. It was right then and there that I knew there was an attack on christian men by the enemy. So the lack of men in churches today does not surprise me.


Son, I applaud your courage, but wonder how you survived, steering into a hornet's nest like that.

Thanks, Rev. Yeah, I got stung a few times, but those brothers coming up to thank me were God's salve on my wounds.



stellaluna -> RE: where are the men? (7/25/2008 8:03:20 PM)

Where are the men? I guess they're at home complaining that church is for women. [8|]

quote:


• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.
• On any given Sunday there are 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches.
• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
• Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants.
• More than 90 percent of American men believe in God, and five out of six call themselves Christians. But only two out of six attend church on a given Sunday. The average man accepts the reality of Jesus Christ, but fails to see any value in going to church.

Yes, because the men choose not to go. Doesn't matter why; they still choose not to go.

quote:


• As many as 90 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it by their 20th birthday. Many of these boys will never return.

Yes. Because either their dad wasn't around or he was at home while the kids went to church with mom. Therefore, church becomes something that is only for the women and not something one will continue after one becomes "a man."

quote:


• The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).

This is unrelated. Every church I've ever attended barely paid minimum wage for most jobs that weren't "minister" of something.



shadowspring -> RE: where are the men? (7/26/2008 11:27:59 AM)

quote:

The way to quickly enslave a society is to indoctrinate the children into the system. 12 years of telling boys to "shut up, sit, down, and do what you are told" is sufficient to prepare men for lives in their job, church, and home.


If this is true, timf, then the church should be full of men well-prepared to sit there, no? [8D]

I don't think men can put the blame on anyone but themselves if they do not follow the Lord with all their heart and take part in the local church. Their families of origin, society, public school, the feminist movement or any other outside influence may affect a man's thinking, but it is his responsibility as a believer to renew his mind to the Word of God.

Just as it is my responsibility as a woman to renew my mind to the Word of God! No man bears the blame if I fail in this endeavor. It is my mind. It is all on me.

In the book Their Blood Cries Out by Paul Marshall published in 1997, the scholar claims that the average Christian statistically, world-wide, is a woman of color in a Third World nation. How does the public education system or women's suffrage in America account for that?

I do agree with the poster who wrote that the problem goes all the way back to the Fall of man. If a woman's temptation is to be in control, a man's temptation is to passivity. Adam was supposed to be serving and protecting both Eve and the garden when the day of temptation came.

The Fall happened under Adam's watch.

Adam tried passing the buck to Eve at the first opportunity also. "That woman You gave me! She made me...." Sound familiar? [;)]



Focusing -> RE: where are the men? (7/26/2008 12:15:05 PM)

Where are the men?

That is a most excellent question. We have a mega church here in town that touts they target MEN and that is their main focus. The problem is, they are seriously lacking men to lead their small groups. However, there seems to be a plethora of women willing to step in. Makes one wonder, doesn't it, just where ARE the men?

I would like to see the men step up and lead, and I would gladly support and encourage them. With the exception of the single moms group I attend, I want a man to lead study groups I go to. I believe men should be the spiritual leaders. JMHO



backrowbaptist -> RE: where are the men? (7/26/2008 4:13:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna


Yes, because the men choose not to go. Doesn't matter why; they still choose not to go.


It doesn't matter why?? What other demographic not attending church would elicit that same response? Women? Youth? Minorities? I think not. You've just re-affirmed the problem, stella.
One of the things those who study this phenomenon point out is that other faiths, mainly Judaism and Islam, don't have this problem. There's something about modern Christianity that has alienated men. This from a faith that was founded by a Messiah who called, discipled and commissioned men to build His church. There's a deeper problem here.



RJR_fan -> RE: where are the men? (7/26/2008 4:41:49 PM)

quote:

Their families of origin, society, public school, the feminist movement or any other outside influence may affect a man's thinking, but it is his responsibility as a believer to renew his mind to the Word of God.


Yes.

Men respond to challenges. Our exemplar, the Lord Jesus Christ, had this awesome self-assurance. While reading the Gospel of John in a foreign language, I kept coming across this phrase that could be literally translated, "Listen. I'm telling you this straight ...." Ladies tend to worry about hurting people's feelings. Men thrive on straight talk, frank exchanges of views, vigorous conversations about meaningful subjects.



Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI