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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 8:55:12 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 208
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quote:
 My reaction is the same as many ladies AND men around here who find it absurd that there are some men who think flowers & kleenex boxes are what are keeping men out of church.
Right, and all of the name calling (neandrathal, sissie, cry baby) has come from that side of the argument. It's immature, as is y'all's inability to see that it's deeper than kleenex and music keys.
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Oh, and my reaction was not immature or hostile. Like I've posted elsewhere, I'm a tell it like I see it type of person. I'm not afraid to share my opinion and argue my case...
Go back and read it again. IMO, name calling is immature. I've never blamed women in this, nor do the leaders of the ministries that are attempting to address this issue. If anyone's more to blame, it's the men who have let the feminization of the church get out of balance.
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Wow. Guess I hit a nerve.
Funny, I thought the exact same thing when I read your post.
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Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 9:00:53 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
FWIW - in our contemporary service this a.m. 83 people, 48 women (58%), 35 men (42%).
Could that possibly be because the service was "contemporary"? Anyway, since women consider themselves the equals of men in North American society, they should take equal blame for whatever deficiences are perceived in today's churches (including the absence of men).
Actually, there were 5 women and 1 man teaching Sunday School. The kids start out in the service and then go to S.S. after a children's prayer. So up the percentage.
As I say, this is a problem. Blame whoever you want, but it's not going to get better until we face it. and ask God to redeem our men.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 9:04:03 PM
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Consecrated2God
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You know, part of the statistics may have to do with the fact that women live longer than men do, on average. We have several elderly widows in our church. If we took them out of the equation, the men to women ration would be just about equal.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 9:07:28 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
You know, part of the statistics may have to do with the fact that women live longer than men do, on average. We have several elderly widows in our church. If we took them out of the equation, the men to women ration would be just about equal.
Your absolutely right. Where's my box of Kleenex? (Sniff)
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 9:34:41 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9204
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
My reaction is the same as many ladies AND men around here who find it absurd that there are some men who think flowers & kleenex boxes are what are keeping men out of church.
Right, and all of the name calling (neandrathal, sissie, cry baby) has come from that side of the argument. It's immature, as is y'all's inability to see that it's deeper than kleenex and music keys.
I didn't call anyone a name. And I only referred to neanderthals to describe men who say they don't go to church because there are flowers and kleenex there. And yes, I find that rather "unmanly". As far as kleenex & music keys, those are the examples that are being used so what else are we supposed to think your argument is?
quote:
quote:
Oh, and my reaction was not immature or hostile. Like I've posted elsewhere, I'm a tell it like I see it type of person. I'm not afraid to share my opinion and argue my case...
Go back and read it again. IMO, name calling is immature. I've never blamed women in this, nor do the leaders of the ministries that are attempting to address this issue. If anyone's more to blame, it's the men who have let the feminization of the church get out of balance.
Again, didn't name call. Second, one of my concerns here is what do you mean by feminization? In some of these threads, apparently some men think that feminity means preaching a watered-down gospel and heresy. Wow. There's a great way to lift up your sisters in Christ.  Others say that talking about emotions and feeling is "feminine" which is strange because the Bible was recorded by men and is full of emotions and weeping and such. So, exactly how is emotion "feminine" and why is it "bad"? Was Jesus bad for weeping? Seriously. I don't understand what you think feminity is and why you think it's bad. I've read through again the thread in men's & she says to try and understand what you are thinking and basically all I can come up with is that you think feminity equals weak, poor doctrine and flowers are symptoms of a problem.
From the men's thread, you said:
quote:
Specifically, the biggest problem I see with a feminized church is the inability to 'stand firm' against the pressures of unsound biblical teachings and political correctness. The more feminine (or liberal - they correlate) the church, the more likely they are to compromise, and not confront, false doctrines.
Huh? Feminine means liberal, weak, unsound biblically, and compromising? And you get all that from flowers in the sanctuary? And since when are women liberal, weak, unsound biblically and compromising but men aren't? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? If you think that poorly of your sisters in Christ, why don't we just kick women out of the church because apparently all our feminity is destroying the church. I mean, I don't recall any of that in Scripture, but hey... Why bother reading God's Word when we can use the cultural definition of "masculine" and "feminine" and make value judgements based on that?
quote:
quote:
Wow. Guess I hit a nerve.
Funny, I thought the exact same thing when I read your post.
You thought wrong. I don't mince words. That doesn't mean I'm angry. It just means I don't mince words. I thought men liked that... I guess I was wrong...
After all, women are supposed to be feminine right and feminity equals not able to handle pressure and know right from wrong....  (said with as much sarcasm as I can muster).
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 10:03:04 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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I've read some of this thread and I just have one comment.
IMO blaming women who are desperate for men to come to church, lead their families, teach classes and disciple other men, women who have been praying that God would light a fire under their husband's posterior so that he'd turn off the tv and lead his children by example by being the Church, women who carry the load, run VBS, do the home visits, clean the sanctuary and head up the fundraising...to blame them really doesn't seem very manly.
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 10:49:19 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
I've read some of this thread and I just have one comment.
IMO blaming women who are desperate for men to come to church, lead their families, teach classes and disciple other men, women who have been praying that God would light a fire under their husband's posterior so that he'd turn off the tv and lead his children by example by being the Church, women who carry the load, run VBS, do the home visits, clean the sanctuary and head up the fundraising...to blame them really doesn't seem very manly.
Yes! Yes! You've got it, except for the blaming women part. On the rest, you're right. You've perfectlyly summarized the problem. And again, if you look further into the ministries addressing the problem, you'll see that there's no blame being thrown around. Check this out from the church for men web site:
http://www.churchformen.com/forwomen.php
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Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 10:56:14 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1623
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If having men in a church is a big issue why not go find a church where they are and be happy?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 11:04:17 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
From the men's thread, you said:
quote:
Specifically, the biggest problem I see with a feminized church is the inability to 'stand firm' against the pressures of unsound biblical teachings and political correctness. The more feminine (or liberal - they correlate) the church, the more likely they are to compromise, and not confront, false doctrines.
Huh? Feminine means liberal, weak, unsound biblically, and compromising? And you get all that from flowers in the sanctuary? And since when are women liberal, weak, unsound biblically and compromising but men aren't? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? If you think that poorly of your sisters in Christ, why don't we just kick women out of the church because apparently all our feminity is destroying the church. I mean, I don't recall any of that in Scripture, but hey... Why bother reading God's Word when we can use the cultural definition of "masculine" and "feminine" and make value judgements based on that?.
I stand by that post. They DO correlate. And no, I don't get that from flowers in the sanctuary. FTLT can we get beyond the flowers, please? I get that from watching one mainline denomination after another, after embracing feminism and egalitarianism, cave on social issues. Now I see it beginning in evangelical churches.
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Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 11:07:27 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8169
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
I've read some of this thread and I just have one comment.
IMO blaming women who are desperate for men to come to church, lead their families, teach classes and disciple other men, women who have been praying that God would light a fire under their husband's posterior so that he'd turn off the tv and lead his children by example by being the Church, women who carry the load, run VBS, do the home visits, clean the sanctuary and head up the fundraising...to blame them really doesn't seem very manly.
Yes! Yes! You've got it, except for the blaming women part. On the rest, you're right. You've perfectlyly summarized the problem. And again, if you look further into the ministries addressing the problem, you'll see that there's no blame being thrown around. Check this out from the church for men web site:
http://www.churchformen.com/forwomen.php
You thought I was a guy, didn't you?
Um, yeah. Calling the church "feminized" as a derogatory term would be blaming, wouldn't it? After all, it's not the men who've allegedly feminized church, right? It's the women!
Looked at the site. Reminds me of Eldridge's "Wild at Heart".
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 11:08:04 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9204
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Backrowbaptist - So again, what is your definition of feminism & feminity.
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~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 11:35:28 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8169
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quote:
I get that from watching one mainline denomination after another, after embracing feminism and egalitarianism, cave on social issues. Now I see it beginning in evangelical churches.
I see! Everything was just fine and all was right with the world until this egalitarianism entered the picture.
Then that's when all the boys picked up their marbles and went home and all the men stayed.
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 6:56:15 AM
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Restored_Heart
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So... a question... instead of arguing over who's fault it is for the men not being there....
What's it going to take to get them to get back into church....
And just as much as the men do not or can not do things the female way.... I think women may not know what to do that will work to get men to come and to lead in the church....
They're trying everything they know - some good, alot not so good...
How could they make it better?
and is it a trade-off that is worth it (i.e. - will the men show up and step up if they do?)
Remember the women have stepped up to fill a void - many times for the sake and lives of their CHILDREN (albeit spiritually).... Who wants to ask the momma bear to back off on protecting her cubs?
_____________________________
Guildenstern: A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself.
Rosencrantz: Or just as mad.
G: Or just as mad.
R: And he does both.
G: So there you are.
R: Stark raving sane.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:12:25 AM
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bluestone
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Has The Wesleyan Church, The Salvation Army, The Evangelical Methodists, or The Nazarenes "Caved" on social issues?
All of these allow women in leadership, and have for many, many years.
Using feminizing of The church is just an excuse to cover The real reasons:
tee times at The golf course, Pro football, and sheer spiritual laziness.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:19:03 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5076
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From: Jesus Land
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quote:
Your absolutely right. Where's my box of Kleenex? (Sniff)
<Lisa hands Ezra a Kleenex> Here you go! Glad to help!
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
I've read some of this thread and I just have one comment.
IMO blaming women who are desperate for men to come to church, lead their families, teach classes and disciple other men, women who have been praying that God would light a fire under their husband's posterior so that he'd turn off the tv and lead his children by example by being the Church, women who carry the load, run VBS, do the home visits, clean the sanctuary and head up the fundraising...to blame them really doesn't seem very manly.
Yes! Yes! You've got it, except for the blaming women part. On the rest, you're right. You've perfectlyly summarized the problem. And again, if you look further into the ministries addressing the problem, you'll see that there's no blame being thrown around. Check this out from the church for men web site:
http://www.churchformen.com/forwomen.php
The problem is, everyone knows there's a problem. So it's been summarized. I've read stuff off that website before, and I've read the book, "Why Men Hate Church", and I find a lot of complaining and very little in the way of actual ideas to draw men back into church. The few ideas they have for drawing the men back I find to rather...odd.
Here's just a few random suggestions in the book. "Banish the word "facilitator" from your vocabulary. Men follow leaders, not faciliators." "Men need simple, one-point lessons". They have examples of churches doing things like releasing beach balls from the pews, the pastor riding a Harley into church, having a log sawing competition, and hitting golf balls off a target on the wall.
Now, I don't think tossing around a beach ball is wrong, and doing something different can be a good thing for everyone involved, but I just think overall these books contain more complaining than actual suggestions.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:20:32 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8169
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quote:
"Men need simple, one-point lessons".
Wow. That's pretty insulting to all the intelligent and Godly men I know.
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:21:50 AM
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Consecrated2God
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From: Jesus Land
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Yeah, I kind of thought that, too.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:29:01 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8169
Joined: 9/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Yeah, I kind of thought that, too.
It's also insulting to my Pastor who preaches intelligent, detailed and comprehensive sermons. What? Am I supposed to believe that his wife writes them for him?
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:56:28 AM
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bluestone
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good point, Jimbo.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 8:58:02 AM
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armydude
Posts: 15150
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
good point, Jimbo.
Very good point and bookmarked.
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Good question, you think?
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RE: where are the men? - 8/5/2008 9:07:25 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 8169
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
To thsoe who find trappings of feminism in churches...do your wives not decorate your homes and make them pretty? Do you avoid going home because of flowered drapes of matching decor? 
I was wondering if they only go to restaurants where they can throw peanut shells directly onto the floor.
_____________________________
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through the restraints.
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