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falcnjet -> How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 12:13:56 AM)

Why does the God of the old testament seem so cruel at times? Ordering Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites (including women, children and cattle). Ordering David to brutally murder all of his enemy army over a certain height. Etc. There were times, and not just a few, when God seemed arbitrary and heartless in His dealings with mankind. I like to know what some of you think about this.



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 2:44:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: falcnjet

Why does the God of the old testament seem so cruel at times? Ordering Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites (including women, children and cattle). Ordering David to brutally murder all of his enemy army over a certain height. Etc. There were times, and not just a few, when God seemed arbitrary and heartless in His dealings with mankind. I like to know what some of you think about this.



I think your question deserves much attention and you are wise to ask. I find the God of the OT to be extremely difficult to understand when I work from the assumption that the being described therein created the heavens and the earth and man. I hesitate to consider it, but as a thought experiment, I once considered what God would be like if, rather than God creating man, man had somehow created God. It turned out that in my assessment, the traits we see in the OT are disturbingly like those traits a God created by man would be most likely to bear.

For me at least, when I read the OT under the assumption that man created God, there is very little trouble understanding His characteristics at all. In fact everything made perfect sense.

He displayed all of the human frailties we would expect of a God created in man's image, by man. He was jealous, vengeful, petty, egotistical, misogynistic, capricious and malevolent to name a few. I'm not suggesting this is what happened. I'm merely pointing out that from that assumption, the God of Abraham makes much more sense to me.



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 9:51:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: falcnjet

Why does the God of the old testament seem so cruel at times? Ordering Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites (including women, children and cattle). Ordering David to brutally murder all of his enemy army over a certain height. Etc. There were times, and not just a few, when God seemed arbitrary and heartless in His dealings with mankind. I like to know what some of you think about this.



It has been suggested on many occasions, that the scriptures "paint god as a genocidal maniac" in his dealings with Amalek.

May I point out, first, that God is the most excellent judge? His judgment is perfect, because it is not swayed by fleshly concerns; it is not swayed by bribery; it is not swayed by riches, nor reputation of men; nor by popularity contests. God does not depend upon eyewitness testimony; nor by what people say in the matter. He is the perfect judge because his judgment is based solely upon TRUTH.

Secondly, my friend, may I point out that man cannot judge God? Men are not capable of judging God, first, because God is righteous, and men are not. Second, because God is perfect, men are not. Third, because God knows. Men suspect, or think. They do not know. Fourth, because God has eternity for experience, men have only a little part of time. Many other reasons may be offered as to why men cannot judge God, but they are not needed. You may even offer some as good as mine. On this I think we will agree; man is not fit to judge God.

Several standards for consideration are mentioned in scripture. With which do you disagree?

1. God does not pervert judgemment or justice.
Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?

2. There is no wickedness in God
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

3. When men see the results of God's judgment, he will be exalted by its fairness.
Isaiah 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isaiah 33:5 The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness.

I now ask you to consider, who was Israel? Not the man, the nation. Why did God select Israel among all the nations? He did not choose them because they outnumbered all other nations, for they were the smallest of all nations. But because God had sworn an oath to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to bless the earth through their seed, and God loved them.

Deut 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

God likens Israel, When Israel was but a family, to a babe at birth. He walked by, saw it cast into an open field, uncut, unsalted, unbathed, and unclothed. He saw, and took pity on the babe. He cleaned it up, clothed it in jewels and bright linen, and silk, Badgers skins, and embroidered works. Bracelets, and jewels, silver and gold, ornaments, earrings, nose jewels, and a crown upon her head. Honey, and oil, and fine flour were her fare. God spoiled her in his love.

Ezekiel 16:4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. 5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born. 6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live. 7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. 9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

God raised Israel from a foundling infant, to the most beautiful jewel among the nations. The queen of Sheba came to see the glory of Solomon, and bask in his wisdom. Nations paid tribute to his coffers. His father David had conquered all the nations surrounding Israel, by the hand of God.

WHERE DOES AMALEK FIGURE INTO IT?
When Israel was yet a babe, stumbling upon its first steps, barely two and a half months out of Egyptian bondage, as they wandered from a place called the wilderness of Sin, to Rephidim, They were attacked by Amalek from the rear.

Amalek attacked them in their most vulnerable point. It was in the rear that the weary travelers strove to keep up. It was to the rear that the widows and orphans, the mothers with little ones, and the children trailed the long line of trekking family.

Moses was wearied, so much so that he had to have assistance just to hold up his hands. And still amalek would not restrain himself. He did not fear Israel, and he did not fear God. He set out to destroy this struggling child, while it was still trying to determine its way in the desert. And God pronounced judgment upon Amalek, he who did not spare the weak and feeble of Israel, God did not spare Amalek's weak and young, either. amalek attempted genocide upon Israel. God judged it upon amalek.

Deut 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; 18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.

Deut 25:19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

Amalek was one of Esau's grandsons. Esau had a son, Eliphaz by name, who had a concubine, Timna; she was the mother of Amalek.
Genesis 36:12 And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's wife.

Between the fifteenth day of the second month, and the first day of the third month, Amalek struck.
Exodus 16:1 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

Exo 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

Exo 17:8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

God told Moses to write the account in a book, and to rehearse it to Joshua; then pronounced judgment on Amalek.
Exo 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Moses built a memorial to the event.
Exo 17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it
Jehovah-nissi: 16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

The prophet Balaam even foretold of the doom of Amalek.
Numbers 24:14 And now, behold, I go unto my people: come therefore, and I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the latter days. 17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth. 18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly. 19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city. 20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.

When God gave Israel a king, he determined it was time to render all the judgments that he had pending, upon the nations in the land of Canaan. The inhabitants of theland had been disobedient for centuries, commiting incest, and beastiality, and homosexuality, until God said, the land "vomiteth you out." And he used Israel to bring judgment on these peoples. And upon Amalek.

1 Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The Psalmist tells us that the peoples of the land did not repent, and seek favour of God. They could have come and entered into covenant with him, by repenting of their evil, and taking hold of his covenant, but chose instead to make alliances with each other, to overthrow the houses of God, while they were still a small nation, getting a foothold in the land. Amalek was one of the conspirators. He was never the
"innocent" as portrayed by those who would attack the word of God.

Psalm 83:1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be
not still, O God. 2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. 3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. 5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: 6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in
possession.
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
art the most high over all the earth.

Amalek, because Saul did not utterly destroy them, as ordered, continued to be a thorn in Israel's side until destroyed in combat by King David.

God's justice was sure, and his judgment was Just.

Theophilus Book



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 9:59:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wayward1

quote:

ORIGINAL: falcnjet

Why does the God of the old testament seem so cruel at times? Ordering Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites (including women, children and cattle). Ordering David to brutally murder all of his enemy army over a certain height. Etc. There were times, and not just a few, when God seemed arbitrary and heartless in His dealings with mankind. I like to know what some of you think about this.



I think your question deserves much attention and you are wise to ask. I find the God of the OT to be extremely difficult to understand when I work from the assumption that the being described therein created the heavens and the earth and man. I hesitate to consider it, but as a thought experiment, I once considered what God would be like if, rather than God creating man, man had somehow created God. It turned out that in my assessment, the traits we see in the OT are disturbingly like those traits a God created by man would be most likely to bear.

For me at least, when I read the OT under the assumption that man created God, there is very little trouble understanding His characteristics at all. In fact everything made perfect sense.

He displayed all of the human frailties we would expect of a God created in man's image, by man. He was jealous, vengeful, petty, egotistical, misogynistic, capricious and malevolent to name a few. I'm not suggesting this is what happened. I'm merely pointing out that from that assumption, the God of Abraham makes much more sense to me.


What a sad commentary on man's understanding of God.

We speak of Anthropomorphism. This is the taking of characteristics of man, and placing them on God; Our hands, feet, nose, etc. and we say man makes God in man's image.

The truth of the matter however, as revealed in scripture, is God has arms [Deu 33:27]
Eyes [Deu 11:12]
Eyes and Ears [2 Kings 19:16]
Hand and Ear [Isa 59:1]
Hands [Deu 32:39][Josh 4:24][Psa 31:5]
Hand and Arm [Deu 5:15]
Heart and Soul [Jer 32:41]
Lips [Job 11:5]
Feet [Exo 24:10]
Voice [Exo 15:26][Deu 13:18]
Words [Num 24:4]
Joy and Singing [Zeph 3:17] (my personal favorite)
Finger [Exo 8:19]
Right and Left hand [1 Kings 22:19][2 Chron 18:18]

I call this Theomorphism, because God reveals that he has taken the perfect for a pattern, and created us as an imperfect image of the perfect.

So when we speak of God's hands or God's eyes or ears, it is not applying man's body parts to God, rather it is simply allowing God's own revelation to us, to speak for itself.

And lest some one think that God being Spirit, means he cannot have hands and etc, let me remind you "you don't know that." None knows anything about spirit beyond the fact we cannot perceive it with the eye. As to its shape or appearance, we cannot speak. We do know that it has not the same appearance as flesh has. That does not mean the appendages are different, only the appearance.

Your examples:
quote:

(wayward1) "He was jealous, vengeful, petty, egotistical, misogynistic, capricious and malevolent to name a few. I'm not suggesting this is what happened. "


(theo) Of course you were. And in a "petty, egotistical, misogynistic, capricious and malevolent" way. Hmmm??? Wonder where THAT came from? MY bad!



falcnjet -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 11:22:36 AM)

Thanks, Theo_book, for taking the time to give such a thorough answer. I actually knew much of the history of the Amalek/Isrealite relationship, but you gave a wonderfully comprehensive review of it, and I appreciate it.
Honestly though, I think your opening statements were the most powerful when you indicated that God is, by definition, just. It is arrogant for us as fallible humans to presume that we have the right to pass judgment upon His actions. The Amalekite issue is actually understandable to some degree when you know all the details, but there are times when we don't understand at all, and at those times we need to just say, "I don't understand, but I trust that God the righteous judge did what was right."
Thanks again for the great reply.



Kath -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 1:23:29 PM)

wayward1

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wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 1:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: falcnjet

Honestly though, I think your opening statements were the most powerful when you indicated that God is, by definition, just.


I want to hold this view as well, but I'm not willing to see justice in warriors "keeping the women and children" for themselves. What if a foreign military overthrows your government and a man in that military believes his bible, his God, gives him not only permission but a direct order to keep your wife and daughter for himself. I hope you never have a daughter ravaged by a military man in a war crime, but until we view the OT from the perspective of the conquered, do we really have the right to declare those actions "just"?.

edited by user for TOS violation.

quote:

The Amalekite issue is actually understandable to some degree when you know all the details, but there are times when we don't understand at all, and at those times we need to just say, "I don't understand, but I trust that God the righteous judge did what was right."



Was it truly understandable, or do we need more clarification from the NT? I'd sure not want to be your enemy? "God delivers the Amorites into Moses' hands. (You're in God hands with Moses.) So Moses does the usual thing, killing everyone "until their was none left alive." Numbers 21:34-35

"God's people will kill like a lion and then "drink the blood of the slain." Numbers 23:24

"The Israelites, with God's help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city". Deuteronomy 3:3-6

"God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of any land that they conquer". Deuteronomy7:2




But with lines like this in there it's no wonder some of us have so much trouble even considering the possibility of it being "man made". Is it not possible for the OT to be man made, but the NT to be divine? I'm just trying to understand here.

"If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you" Deuteronomy 6:15,

"Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own." Deuteronomy 17:2-7

"Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed." Deuteronomy 17:12-13



brujaq -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 1:41:07 PM)

theo_book .. awesome post ..



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 1:58:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book


(theo) Of course you were. And in a "petty, egotistical, misogynistic, capricious and malevolent" way. Hmmm??? Wonder where THAT came from? MY bad!


What is petty about evaluating the God of the OT to the best of my ability?

What is egotistical in my post?

What is misogynistic? Misogynists hate women.

Capricious means to be erratic. What was erratic about my post?

Malevolent means evil. Quite frankly, how dare you call me evil for questioning your God. This is not 300AD.



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 4:39:52 PM)

quote:

(wayward1)
What is petty about evaluating the God of the OT to the best of my ability?

What is egotistical in my post?

What is misogynistic? Misogynists hate women.

Capricious means to be erratic. What was erratic about my post?

Malevolent means evil. Quite frankly, how dare you call me evil for questioning your God. This is not 300AD.



(theo) HHHmmmm!!!

quote:

(wayward1) "He was jealous, vengeful, petty, egotistical, misogynistic, capricious and malevolent to name a few.


Was there a "Question" in there? Isn't that what I should expect to see from your " Quite frankly, how dare you call me evil for questioning your God?"

No, you were not "questioning" my God, you were blaspheming and accusing him, unjustly I might add. I just though I would let you try on some of the same hat for size.



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 6:37:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book


Was there a "Question" in there? ... No, you were not "questioning" my God, you were blaspheming and accusing him, unjustly I might add.


No, no question in there. I can make a statement, and have it also be an act of "questioning". If I openly question the authority of the US Government I might do it entirely with statements utterly free of the interrogative. That was my assessment. I stated it. In so doing, I "questioned" your God, and you attacked me personally for it, calling me an evil, erratic, egotistical, petty and cruel woman hater.

Now, on the receiving end of your God's wrath I would venture to say that your assessment would have been identical to mine. In fact, attacked by Muslims, we Americans have readily declared Allah to be a vicious fake. I wonder why all those people your God instructed the Israelites to destroy were not also part of His creation, and worthy of His love. This is a major hang up for me, and one of the things pushing me from Christianity.

If I'm to be shunned for asking about it then how am I ever to get over it?

Doesn't your faith provide you with the grace to be patient with someone like me, and to help me understand so that I might one day experience the joys of Christianity as well. Your words push me farther away.

quote:

I just though I would let you try on some of the same hat for size.


So something I write gives you the right to violate the TOS of this site that state that the following is prohibited: "Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view..."



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 7:59:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wayward1

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book


Was there a "Question" in there? ... No, you were not "questioning" my God, you were blaspheming and accusing him, unjustly I might add.


No, no question in there. I can make a statement, and have it also be an act of "questioning". If I openly question the authority of the US Government I might do it entirely with statements utterly free of the interrogative. That was my assessment. I stated it. In so doing, I "questioned" your God, and you attacked me personally for it, calling me an evil, erratic, egotistical, petty and cruel woman hater.

Now, on the receiving end of your God's wrath I would venture to say that your assessment would have been identical to mine. In fact, attacked by Muslims, we Americans have readily declared Allah to be a vicious fake. I wonder why all those people your God instructed the Israelites to destroy were not also part of His creation, and worthy of His love. This is a major hang up for me, and one of the things pushing me from Christianity.

If I'm to be shunned for asking about it then how am I ever to get over it?

Doesn't your faith provide you with the grace to be patient with someone like me, and to help me understand so that I might one day experience the joys of Christianity as well. Your words push me farther away.

quote:

I just though I would let you try on some of the same hat for size.


So something I write gives you the right to violate the TOS of this site that state that the following is prohibited: "Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view..."


But I don't differ with your view. I also apply the inapplicable to those about whom I know nothing, as I did in your case. Why is it right for you and wrong for me?



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 8:11:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

But I don't differ with your view. I also apply the inapplicable to those about whom I know nothing, as I did in your case. Why is it right for you and wrong for me?


I mean this absolutely sincerely and in no way to be offensive but I have so much trouble understanding you some times. I have a degree in English so I can't help doubting there's any issue on my end. What does "I apply the inapplicable to those about whom I know nothing" mean?

Are you saying that since I "applied the inapplicable" to God, that you should be able to "apply the inapplicable" to me. If so then it's a loaded question because it presupposes that what I applied to God is inapplicable to God. Who says?

What makes it inapplicable? Are you saying you didn't mean those things but if it's ok for me to say it about god then it's ok for you to say it about me? I'm not sure I see the connection.

In any case, if you're claiming that what you said about me really isn't what you think about me then maybe you could just come out and say that. Maybe you could just say "I don't think those things about you, sir. It was simply a cheap shot that I should have been bigger than."

Then we could move on from it and get on with the business of figuring out why I'm so wrong. Attacking me personally and saying "you're wrong because I say so" isn't going to be very convincing for anyone.



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 9:11:32 PM)

quote:

(falcnjet) Honestly though, I think your opening statements were the most powerful when you indicated that God is, by definition, just.

(wayward1) I want to hold this view as well, but I'm not willing to see justice in warriors "keeping the women and children" for themselves.


(theo) Actually, allowing the women and children to live is an act of mercy; one they could not give to the males who were of fighting potential.

That is also the source of original slavery, i.,e., an act of mercy. "We will let you live if you are willing to serve us." the first accounts were about different tribes vieing forr the same food sources. Slavery saved a lot of lives.

quote:

(wayward1) What if a foreign military overthrows your government and a man in that military believes his bible, his God, gives him not only permission but a direct order to keep your wife and daughter for himself. I hope you never have a daughter ravaged by a military man in a war crime, but until we view the OT from the perspective of the conquered, do we really have the right to declare those actions "just"?.


It is not up to man to declare God's actions just or unjust. It is man's part to simply learn the lessons from the accounts.

And the designation "war crimes" is relatively new, not in force nor applicable prior to about the first world war. (Maybe even the second world war.)

quote:

(falcnjet) The Amalekite issue is actually understandable to some degree when you know all the details, but there are times when we don't understand at all, and at those times we need to just say, "I don't understand, but I trust that God the righteous judge did what was right."

(wayward1) Was it truly understandable, or do we need more clarification from the NT? I'd sure not want to be your enemy? "God delivers the Amorites into Moses' hands. (You're in God hands with Moses.) So Moses does the usual thing, killing everyone "until their was none left alive." Numbers 21:34-35

"God's people will kill like a lion and then "drink the blood of the slain." Numbers 23:24


(theo) The reference is to the young lion, not to the Israelite. Israelites were forbidden to partake of blood.
Num 23:24 Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he (the young lion) shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

quote:

(wayward1) "The Israelites, with God's help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city". Deuteronomy 3:3-6

"God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of any land that they conquer". Deuteronomy7:2


(theo) Yeah, well there was a reason for it. The people who settled in the land later teken for them by Israel, defiled the land with every abominable practice forbidden by God. They were guilty of interfamily sexual relationships; thefts, murders, idolatry, offering their children in sacrifice to idols, homosexuality, and a host of other lesser sins.

AND, God explains why sometimes the righteous perish, when it makes no sense to us.
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
God takes them home to spare them from the evil that is coming upon their nation in judgment.

quote:

(wayward1) But with lines like this in there it's no wonder some of us have so much trouble even considering the possibility of it being "man made". Is it not possible for the OT to be man made, but the NT to be divine? I'm just trying to understand here.

"If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you" Deuteronomy 6:15,

"Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own." Deuteronomy 17:2-7

"Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed." Deuteronomy 17:12-13


(theo) It occured to me, while reading your statements and questions in this post, perhaps you actually don't know why God punished his people as he did.

It is because he made a covenant with them, with blessings above what other men were promised, and curses for rebellion. Moses read all the words of the covenant, and the people were given a choice, whether to enter into covenant relation with God or to go their own way. They chose to enter into the covenant, with all its blessings and its curses. Then they got fat and lazy, forgot the covenant, chased after other gods of the lands into which they had gone, worshipping those false gods, burning their children in sacrifice, entering incestuous relationships, homosexuality, all the same abominations that the people had done who the Israelites ahd destroyed in the land.

The Israelites were doing the same things as the people who God sent them into the land to destroy. But it was agreed to by the people in the covenant. They simply forgot the curses when they forgot God. And he enforced the terms of the covenant. It is basically that simple.



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 9:13:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wayward1

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

But I don't differ with your view. I also apply the inapplicable to those about whom I know nothing, as I did in your case. Why is it right for you and wrong for me?


I mean this absolutely sincerely and in no way to be offensive but I have so much trouble understanding you some times. I have a degree in English so I can't help doubting there's any issue on my end. What does "I apply the inapplicable to those about whom I know nothing" mean?

Are you saying that since I "applied the inapplicable" to God, that you should be able to "apply the inapplicable" to me. If so then it's a loaded question because it presupposes that what I applied to God is inapplicable to God. Who says?

What makes it inapplicable? Are you saying you didn't mean those things but if it's ok for me to say it about god then it's ok for you to say it about me? I'm not sure I see the connection.

In any case, if you're claiming that what you said about me really isn't what you think about me then maybe you could just come out and say that. Maybe you could just say "I don't think those things about you, sir. It was simply a cheap shot that I should have been bigger than."

Then we could move on from it and get on with the business of figuring out why I'm so wrong. Attacking me personally and saying "you're wrong because I say so" isn't going to be very convincing for anyone.


You have hit the nail right on the head, and make me ashamed. I apologize for my bad behaviour. I had thought you were mistreating my God and joined in that which I abhor. Sorry 'bout that.



bob97 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 11:07:12 PM)

wayward...I'll come right out and ask...do you consider yourself a Christian or do you ascribe to some other faith? Then again maybe you have no faith. You know where we stand so it's only proper to know the same about you. If you decline to answer...thats cool.

Bob



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/23/2008 11:38:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

wayward...I'll come right out and ask...do you consider yourself a Christian or do you ascribe to some other faith? Then again maybe you have no faith. You know where we stand so it's only proper to know the same about you. If you decline to answer...thats cool.

Bob



I am most definitely a theist, but I don't grant tacit authority to other people for defining God. I am a human, too, and with my humanity comes the inalienable right to gaze upon the world and make assessments, including assessments about God.

Mine may well become a lifelong journey of exploration regarding this subject. I have yet to stop investigating any religion that I have looked into, including Christianity. As I continue to evaluate all faiths for merit, I will also continue to reassess my own current faith.

At the outset though, I consider myself to be well within my rights to have some say in How god is defined. I have my definition. You have yours. Mine is tentative. I suppose yours is unwavering. I will happily change my mind if you present me with sufficient grounds. That's why I'm here. Will you change your mind if I provide sufficient grounds? Or is my human opinion simply garbage by the sheer virtue of it being different from yours?

Edit:

Upon rereading my comments I found them to be somewhat evasive. I didn't say what I called my faith, but that's really because it's hard to say. You would consider me a naturalist but there's so much more to it than that, to me at least.

Certainly my brand of theism is rather non-traditional by typical theists' standards. That is in no way indicative of its genuineness though. I have an abiding reverence for the universe and all of its awe inspiring mystery and wondrous beauty. I feel at one with nature, and simply too lucky to be alive to not indulge in the natural tendency toward spirituality that we all feel. To me there is no need to invoke the supernatural to embrace our connection with the most majestic idea ever conceived, the universe. What this leaves me open to is a discovery that the universe is God's creation, so I search.

In fact my guess is that my "religiosity" far exceeds that of most traditional theists because its potential for correctness is bolstered with every passing minute as philosophers, psychologists, scientists and just scientifically minded people add to the already staggering heap of data that reinforces it.

Carl Sagan described it best as follows. "A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge."

I suspect it has, and I suppose you could say it's my "religion", scientific pantheism, though I generally prefer to reject such labels until I am 100% decided. It's not exactly popular, but it's my best guess, and I respect other people too much to say or even imply that I can do anything more than "guess" about God.



bob97 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 12:20:13 AM)

Well you see wayward...that’s the problem. There is really nothing I can say for the most part that will change your mind. That is something the Holy Spirit will have to do. That is the essence of these theological debates that is so maddening. One person sees scripture one way and others see it differently and for the most part…never the twain shall meet. Oh we agree on the basics…that Christ is the Son of God and the only way to salvation but most other things are subject to debate. In Christ we have an unwavering faith, that He is the only way to salvation…that is way there is no other faith that holds true for us.

So if you are still researching the existence of one or more divinities or deities I’m afraid we would not consider you a Christian.

You ask the question regarding the meaning of the elect on another thread and my answer is those whom God has given the faith to believe in His Son as being the Messiah and salvation of those who believe.

If we were close in our discussion I would give you scripture to help guide you on your journey but it looks like we are quite far apart.

It would be my pray that God give you this faith and change your heart to accept Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation.

Bob



SovereignIsHe -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 1:31:30 AM)

Proverbs 17:24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.


John



theo_book -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 7:35:37 AM)

quote:

(wayward1) I am most definitely a theist, but I don't grant tacit authority to other people for defining God.

At the outset though, I consider myself to be well within my rights to have some say in How god is defined. I have my definition. You have yours.


Well now. That certainly clears up the issue somewhat, for me at least.
May I forward a guess? My guess is that in your search for truth, you have read some books about the bible? And about God? Please correct me if I misspeak.



falcnjet -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 12:35:16 PM)

That's really a great post, bob97.
Wayward, if you really are searching (though it doesn't sound like you really are), just follow this line of thinking and see where it leads you.
You already accept the existence of something outside of the physical reality. If that's true, then it's possible that there is much inherent truth that originates from outside of what is available to our senses or provable in the scientific-method sense; that there is a truth which transcends nature and material things. If I were constructing a template for your search, I would start by dealing with the issue of the trustworthiness and authority of the bible. The key issue is whether or not there exists an authority outside of ourselves to which we logically should submit ourselves (in order to attain fulfillment in life and to understand this reality outside the physical senses). The core issue in the search is whether or not you have this right that you claim to essentially be your own god. If you find yourself to be the proper "decider" of all matters spiritual and physical, then you will never accept Christianity as a valid world view. Christianity proposes that this tendency of mankind to want to go his own way is the root of all his problems. The bible records that God created the universe perfect and that it was man wanting his own way that started him down the road toward the kind of confusion, evil and suffering that exists today. At the fall, man's relationship with a perfect Deity was severed. Since then, man has believed himself capable of managing his own affairs, and God has loved him enough to give him his way, but also enough to provide a way to mend the relationship if a person wants to.
But Christianity proposes that all truth resides in God, the author of everything we know and see, and after whom we are patterned. The bible makes it clear that God has given us plenty of information for us to understand his essential nature, and He delights in our discovery of truth about our world.
This big argument between naturalists and Christian creationists is a result of the belief among Christians that ultimate, non-negotiable truth is found in what God has taught us, and that there is no such thing as discoverable truth that conflicts with this transcendent truth. If we want to know the truth about our scientific discoveries, we have to evaluate them in light of this background, ultimate truth. Evolutionist doctrine does not accept this, and that is very simply the difference between us. If you never come to a point where you can accept this transcendent truth, you will never accept Christianity.
I wish you success in your search, if that's what it really is. But if a seach never finds anything, its a vain search and a waste of a life. I hope yours doesn't turn out to be endless.



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 1:08:35 PM)

I'll just address everyone together if that's ok.

It almost seems like you folks are working from the assumption that if I don't find your God, then I never truly searched for Him.

Since my main hangup is that so many other humans on earth happily dismiss Christianity, I guess I'll just ask what was the method you followed to allow yourself to dismiss so many other Gods? It just seems odd to me that you all take Christianity to be so vitally important, but find all other religions to be utterly useless. Especially when most of the other humans on earth think their religion is vitally important, but your's is utterly useless. If I consider myself a "citizen of the earth" like anyone should these days, then how am I to choose without fearing I'll make a mistake. So, how did you choose without fearing you were making a mistake?.

For example, Falcnjet, I'll follow your line of thinking if you'll follow mine. Had you been born in India do you think you'd be more likely to be a Hindu or a Christian? Had you been born in Afghanistan do you think you'd be more likely to be a Muslim or a Christian.

I mean, I know there are Christians in both places, but there will always be a few that go there own way in any major area. This happens to be a Christian area. It almost seems like a sheer accident of birth that causes the bulk of the "religious decisions" that get made on this planet.

I've just never had it in me to fall in line like that. Especially when doing so in this case requires that I assume there are over 4 billion humans on earth bound for hell, and probably more like "over 5 billion, considering easily half of the Christians I've met have been two faced hypocrites". (it's worth noting that many of the "other half" of the christians I've met have been the most wonderful people I've ever known, that I could only hope to live up to). As an outsider, I'm forced to take the whole of christianity into consideration before espousing myself to it. I'm not choosing against it. I'm giving it an opportunity to choose me. I wasn't born into it, and for that I'm thankful. I imagine many of you are thankful you weren't born into Islam. We must all choose for ourselves.

But still, when I keep that in mind I'm forced to consider everyone on the earth as equals on some basic level. This is demonstrated every time a tribal child as adopted by wealthy people and then ends up being a doctor or something. I believe all humans endeavor to find truth and understanding. I believe all humans do long for inner peace. When I look at it this way I find it to be you who is going your own way, as an American Christian, and me who is going along with the world crowd.

Oh, and I do not accept any supernatural notion as of yet. I would happily do so though if one was demonstrated to me. But then, what would religion be if God showed himself? Once everyone had knowledge, faith would no longer be required. You can look up scientific pantheism if you want to know more.



abraxas -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 1:21:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: falcnjet

That's really a great post, bob97.
Wayward, if you really are searching (though it doesn't sound like you really are)


What does it sound like when someone is really searching? This all seems so strange coming from the person who started this thread with this post--

Why does the God of the old testament seem so cruel at times? Ordering Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites (including women, children and cattle). Ordering David to brutally murder all of his enemy army over a certain height. Etc. There were times, and not just a few, when God seemed arbitrary and heartless in His dealings with mankind. I like to know what some of you think about this.

Now it's great that you're finding answers to your questions that satisfy you, but are you saying that someone who isn't satisfied by them isn't really searching?

quote:

If I were constructing a template for your search, I would start by dealing with the issue of the trustworthiness and authority of the bible.


Including asking the kinds of questions in your OP?

quote:

The core issue in the search is whether or not you have this right that you claim to essentially be your own god.


In some ways, everyone must essentially be their own god. We all must make important decisions, value judgements, etc. Is there a way around it, and how is that not being one's own god?

quote:

If you find yourself to be the proper "decider" of all matters spiritual and physical, then you will never accept Christianity as a valid world view.


When you chose to embrace your faith and not a different one, you found yourself a proper "decider" of all matters spiritual and physical. When you chose to accept that what you were experiencing was truth, you were being a proper "decider". When you suggest that someone else with differing views is maybe not really seeking, you are acting like the proper "decider".

quote:

This big argument between naturalists and Christian creationists is a result of the belief among Christians that ultimate, non-negotiable truth is found in what God has taught us, and that there is no such thing as discoverable truth that conflicts with this transcendent truth.


OEC or YEC? What about Christian evolutionists? Calvinians or Arminians? Catholic (EO or RC) or Protestant (EV, SB, WOF, AOG, etc.)?Just trying to understand the different sides, and who agrees with you on that.

quote:

But if a seach never finds anything, its a vain search and a waste of a life. I hope yours doesn't turn out to be endless.


That is quite a can of worms there! [8D]



falcnjet -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 3:19:54 PM)

Now you sound like you really are as honest a searcher for truth as any of us can be. Your post struck me as sincere.

quote:

I guess I'll just ask what was the method you followed to allow yourself to dismiss so many other Gods?


What a great question this is. And I understand your point about culture's strong influence on religious beliefs.
For a person in your position, well, for any of us, it's a long and complicated road to understanding everything about this stuff. And we'll never understand it all. But it is more important than anything else we could spend our time on. One has to really want the truth if they're going to arrive at it.
There is no way to thoroughly address these questions here. I'm sure thousands of books have been written about the various implications of it. So of course, I can't try.
I'll just tell you that I believe Christianity holds the correct world view because of the incredible reliablity of scripture. Hundreds of prophesies fulfilled. Written by over 40 men over a 1600 year span on three different continents and in three different languages, yet with remarkable unity of message. These men touched on many aspects of our physical world including matters they couldn't have known with the knowledge of their day, and these truths about the physical world hold up even into (what we think is) our technologically advanced age. This is about as far from an expected outcome from such diverse and ancient writings as there could be.
Futher, no other religion that I know of was founded by someone who claimed to BE God. Christ made that claim, and an honest person looking for truth has to deal with that.
Finally, I reject other religions because they conflict with the one that I have personal assurance is true. Other religions are excluded from being equal with Christianity because they are in direct conflict with it.
I know this is a general statement of belief and there are a lot of "what abouts" and "what ifs". I'm sure I'll see a few in responses, but as I said, you've asked questions who's answers are deep and complicated.
As I said before, best of luck to you.



wayward1 -> RE: How could a loving God...? (7/24/2008 5:03:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

quote:

(wayward1) I am most definitely a theist, but I don't grant tacit authority to other people for defining God.

At the outset though, I consider myself to be well within my rights to have some say in How god is defined. I have my definition. You have yours.


Well now. That certainly clears up the issue somewhat, for me at least.
May I forward a guess? My guess is that in your search for truth, you have read some books about the bible? And about God? Please correct me if I misspeak.



Yes I have read several books on this subject. Probably about 12, but I'd have to sit down and think about it.



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