|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:12:53 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
I see what you are saying Zhi, I just feel in my gut that the House of God is not the place for that. I have no problem with it being outside, maybe in a park or parking lot for that matter. Not inside the church and not with the affiliation of a church. Individuals supporting this endeavor, fine. I just don't agree with the Church being the one advertised. If people get crazy and start acting a fool, what does that say about the church and the Christians present. it simple gives the world another reason to look at us a scream HYPOCRITE!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:33:50 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1357
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
I've seen people lose it in church services too, start screaming at the pastor that God is a bunch of bunk and we're all fools. If we were concerned about appearances inside the church we should never let a single non-believer through the door, much less try to get them to come.
Our primary mission is to save the lost. Not to look good. If we can look good, super, but if it's at the expense of reaching out to the unsaved, it's a wrong motivation.
Jesus got down and dirty, He washed people's feet and had lunch with publicans and sinners. He was literally born in a barn, His best friends were fishermen and tax collectors. The Pharisees called Him a sinner and a fool and a hypocrite, but He was out there saving the lost and He changed the world for it.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:42:24 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
My meaning behind appearances:
If we look like the world, the same as everybody else, what will cause them to be curious? Nothing. They won't see hope, they won't see light, what they will see, is still no answer to what ails them. They still won't see the need for Jesus.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:47:39 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
So we can't have any music in a church which sounds anything like music from the world? We must all wear choir robes so that we don't wear the clothes of the outside world? When we eat together, it can't be anything which resembles anything anyone in the outside world eats? Come on!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:48:15 PM
|
|
|
Peter_Gunn
Posts: 445
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
...His best friends were fishermen and tax collectors.
His best friends were HIS disciples...they were, essentially, born again fishermen and tax collectors. They were people who had repented of their sins and were following Him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:55:46 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1357
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
If we look like the world, the same as everybody else, what will cause them to be curious? Nothing. They won't see hope, they won't see light, what they will see, is still no answer to what ails them. They still won't see the need for Jesus.
Sure, but that's us personally. We need to be like that regardless of whether we're in the sanctuary or at our job or at Pizza Hut. The curiosity should come from looking at us, not from looking at some special building that they're not allowed to enter.
quote:
His best friends were HIS disciples...they were, essentially, born again fishermen and tax collectors. They were people who had repented of their sins and were following Him.
Which doesn't change the fact that they were fishermen and tax collectors. We can be born again engineers and lawyers and garbage collectors... the important part is the part where it says "born again", and whether or not we're living like we are.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 1:58:14 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
quote:
So we can't have any music in a church which sounds anything like music from the world? We must all wear choir robes so that we don't wear the clothes of the outside world? When we eat together, it can't be anything which resembles anything anyone in the outside world eats? Come on!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
Why do people tend to go to the extremes in attempts to make points?
McFatty, look at your own signature. Following that scripture, living it, sets us apart from the world. if you don't believe that, then may I suggest you find another signature.
The verse itself is a far from a push to do the things of the world.......
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:04:54 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
quote:
Which doesn't change the fact that they were fishermen and tax collectors. We can be born again engineers and lawyers and garbage collectors... the important part is the part where it says "born again", and whether or not we're living like we are.
True. However, the HS entered them and forever changed them rather than their being ruled by the flesh.
Huge difference.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:16:21 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
quote:
Is it just me or do you simply dismiss anything that's difficult for you?
I was thinking the same thing about you, go figure. 
quote:
With that attitude, we should just put our Bible on the shelf and go our merry way, oblivious to those around us, just like the religious folk in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Which in in contrast to the Bible's instruction to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I don't know what attitude you are referring to. I'm very much a proponent for accountability and responsibility. However, I'm not going to jump up and wallow in someone else's sin and take responsibility for their error. My neighbor murders someone, I'm not going to claim that I did it so they won't suffer the consequences of their actions. Would you?
I'm not going to sit there and flaunt a sin in front of someone who is struggling with that particular sin. Why would someone do that? I would be very guilty of helping my brother stumble.
So, again, I don't know what attitude you are talking about.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:29:21 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2459
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Is it just me or do you simply dismiss anything that's difficult for you?
I was thinking the same thing about you, go figure.
quote:
With that attitude, we should just put our Bible on the shelf and go our merry way, oblivious to those around us, just like the religious folk in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Which in in contrast to the Bible's instruction to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I don't know what attitude you are referring to. I'm very much a proponent for accountability and responsibility. However, I'm not going to jump up and wallow in someone else's sin and take responsibility for their error. My neighbor murders someone, I'm not going to claim that I did it so they won't suffer the consequences of their actions. Would you?
I'm not going to sit there and flaunt a sin in front of someone who is struggling with that particular sin. Why would someone do that? I would be very guilty of helping my brother stumble.
So, again, I don't know what attitude you are talking about.
Someone get me a beer, so I can kick back and watch ya'll duke it out. 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:37:36 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
So we can't have any music in a church which sounds anything like music from the world? We must all wear choir robes so that we don't wear the clothes of the outside world? When we eat together, it can't be anything which resembles anything anyone in the outside world eats? Come on!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
Why do people tend to go to the extremes in attempts to make points?
McFatty, look at your own signature. Following that scripture, living it, sets us apart from the world. if you don't believe that, then may I suggest you find another signature.
The verse itself is a far from a push to do the things of the world.......
So who decides what is "of the world"? Am I doing things of the world when I have wine at Christmas dinner with my family? If not, what is the difference between that and having a beer while watching a baseball game with my friends? People of the world do these things. My point is that there is nothing which is dishonorable, wrong, impure, ugly, etc about having a drink.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:42:18 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6601
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
So, again, I don't know what attitude you are talking about.
That you don't have to worry your little head about the possibility that your dress or actions might cause someone to stumble (sin) in the faith. You know, that kind of attitude that Jesus said was worse than putting a millstone around your neck and jumping into the sea.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:46:04 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
The Word tells us what the world is not. So that's probably the place to start looking. It describes and tells us what worldly things are. It would be prudent, if we are to be obedient, to look at these things, and decide what in our lives needs to go. Don't you think?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:50:04 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2459
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
So we can't have any music in a church which sounds anything like music from the world? We must all wear choir robes so that we don't wear the clothes of the outside world? When we eat together, it can't be anything which resembles anything anyone in the outside world eats? Come on!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
Why do people tend to go to the extremes in attempts to make points?
McFatty, look at your own signature. Following that scripture, living it, sets us apart from the world. if you don't believe that, then may I suggest you find another signature.
The verse itself is a far from a push to do the things of the world.......
So who decides what is "of the world"? Am I doing things of the world when I have wine at Christmas dinner with my family? If not, what is the difference between that and having a beer while watching a baseball game with my friends? People of the world do these things. My point is that there is nothing which is dishonorable, wrong, impure, ugly, etc about having a drink.
There is a fine line between the 2 sides. The line may not necessarily be the same for everyone because we have different motivations, etc. The primary focus for me in this discussion is to keep the church free of indulging in what the world finds acceptable even when the bible says to avoid it. For instance, there is no problem with drinking alcohol, but the bible says a drunk will go to hell. Finding the middle road seems to be hard for the Church as a total body because we each have differing perceptions. I hold to the point that the Church should not incorporate things of this nature into our message. By all means, go drink a glass of wine, but do not say to the world that we go to church and have a few drinks because we want them to feel comfortable.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 2:58:26 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
quote:
That you don't have to worry your little head about the possibility that your dress or actions might cause someone to stumble (sin) in the faith. You know, that kind of attitude that Jesus said was worse than putting a millstone around your neck and jumping into the sea.
Well, I can assure that my dress certainly won't cause another to stumble, I rarely wear them anyway.
I could understand your position, if I went around doing things that intentionally hurt others or lived like a heathen, or intentionally caused those around me to continue to sin or begin sinning. The fact is, I don't knowingly or willingly try to sin. I know I do sin but to intentionally lead others down that path, I don't do. So, I really don't know where you are getting this impression from.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 3:05:14 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
quote:
There is a fine line between the 2 sides. The line may not necessarily be the same for everyone because we have different motivations, etc. The primary focus for me in this discussion is to keep the church free of indulging in what the world finds acceptable even when the bible says to avoid it. For instance, there is no problem with drinking alcohol, but the bible says a drunk will go to hell. Finding the middle road seems to be hard for the Church as a total body because we each have differing perceptions. I hold to the point that the Church should not incorporate things of this nature into our message. By all means, go drink a glass of wine, but do not say to the world that we go to church and have a few drinks because we want them to feel comfortable.
I totally agree with this Wes. That's why I suggested looking at the scriptures. I get my thinking of worldly from the scriptures. I think it's clear cut, at least to me anyways. Maybe it's not for others. I also base it on what God has taught through the consequences suffered from the sins I have engaged in. We all learn as He wills and in His timing.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 3:08:58 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
So we can't have any music in a church which sounds anything like music from the world? We must all wear choir robes so that we don't wear the clothes of the outside world? When we eat together, it can't be anything which resembles anything anyone in the outside world eats? Come on!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
Why do people tend to go to the extremes in attempts to make points?
McFatty, look at your own signature. Following that scripture, living it, sets us apart from the world. if you don't believe that, then may I suggest you find another signature.
The verse itself is a far from a push to do the things of the world.......
So who decides what is "of the world"? Am I doing things of the world when I have wine at Christmas dinner with my family? If not, what is the difference between that and having a beer while watching a baseball game with my friends? People of the world do these things. My point is that there is nothing which is dishonorable, wrong, impure, ugly, etc about having a drink.
There is a fine line between the 2 sides. The line may not necessarily be the same for everyone because we have different motivations, etc. The primary focus for me in this discussion is to keep the church free of indulging in what the world finds acceptable even when the bible says to avoid it. For instance, there is no problem with drinking alcohol, but the bible says a drunk will go to hell. Finding the middle road seems to be hard for the Church as a total body because we each have differing perceptions. I hold to the point that the Church should not incorporate things of this nature into our message. By all means, go drink a glass of wine, but do not say to the world that we go to church and have a few drinks because we want them to feel comfortable.
Of course not, but I refuse to give others a false impression of what my life in Christ is. If someone asks me if I drink, I will say yes, because I enjoy Chardonnay in the afternoon and a Guinness at night. Do I drink enough to affect me? Of course not. They taste good so I drink them! I explain all of this to them as well. We aren't supposed to pretend to be something we're not just to look different. In the ways I am different, I will be different. In the ways I am similar, I will be similar. Paul said we have freedom in Christ. He said not to make our brothers stumble, but his examples prove that it doesn't mean avoid anything which might have a chance of possibly offending someone. If my brother in Christ saw me having a drink and told me (in whatever way) that it caused him to stumble, I wouldn't drink any longer until my brother realized the freedom he has in Christ.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 3:27:06 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2459
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Okay, so drinking alcohol isn't a sin unless it's in church. Would that be only in the sanctuary or anywhere within the building?
What about congregations who meet in places other than a recognized church building? What if they come together Sunday mornings in a room in a restaurant where alcohol is served the other 6 days of the week? Are they not a church? Are their services not holy?
As for being hypocrites, my view is that here is a guy who is showing, not talking, but showing that he's the same guy on Friday nights that he is on Sunday mornings. He's being authentic with people he's trying to reach.
And speaking of alcoholics, this is an awful lot like the argument to NOT let AA meet in church buildings. The church is "holy" and those people smoke. We don't want them!
Just for clarification, I have not argued that it was sinful. I just think it is a bad example. Regarding AA meetings, I would think that is a good example to the world.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/23/2008 3:32:34 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1903
Status: offline
|
quote:
Okay, so drinking alcohol isn't a sin unless it's in church. Would that be only in the sanctuary or anywhere within the building?
This is an off base inference from the op.
quote:
What about congregations who meet in places other than a recognized church building?
What about them?
quote:
What if they come together Sunday mornings in a room in a restaurant where alcohol is served the other 6 days of the week? Are they not a church? Are their services not holy?
This has, what, to do with a secular jam session at a church?
quote:
And speaking of alcoholics, this is an awful lot like the argument to NOT let AA meet in church buildings. The church is "holy" and those people smoke. We don't want them!
Haven't heard that argument before. Sounds ridiculous though.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
