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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 6:11:32 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
A very high percentage of scientists accept evolution, and that's why it is taught in science classes.
A very high percentage of people you label "scientists," but whether or not something is scientific is dependent on its falsifiability, not how many "scientists" accept it. Science welcomes academic freedom and open inquiry and when "scientists" or atheists or any group of people oppress such things, they're not promoting science.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 6:30:46 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
No one in academia wants to teach creationism. People have to want to teach it before it gets 'oppressed'.
This is not true.
So, do you take the position that teachers should be allowed to teach both sides of the issue if they want to?
Most high school teachers arent qualified to make such decisions.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 6:54:48 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
And the whole point wooshed right over your head. Simply saying some christians don't believe in evolution doesnt make them more open minded. In fact, it makes most quite the opposite. The post was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek way of illustrating that point.
The point that I was getting across is that just because some Christians reject evolution does not make them any less scientific.
It does when they cannot produce any scientific foundation for rejecting evolution.
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Even if I weren't a Christian, I still wouldn't believe evolution to be true because the evidence doesn't seem to support UCD.
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
Do you mean
"There is countervailing evidence which casts doubt on UCD"
or
"There are alternate theories which explain the evidence for UCD as well as evolution does."
or
"The evidence claimed to support UCD in fact does not."
or
any some other statement of your choice?
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 8:35:37 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 507
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Did you even read the text you quoted?
Yes I did. He asked us to keep criticisms to ourselves. Then again, many evolutionists contradict themselves and speak incoherently, so it's difficult to really know what they mean when they say something. It's not that evolutionists are incoherent, it's that evolution is incoherent and inconsistent with the evidence so evolutionists have no choice but to resort to non sequitur arguments to promote their position.
Well, read it again. He says criticize away. He only asks that you have evidence first. -- A reasonable request in my opinion. Here is what he said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
And no one is challenging that freedom. Criticize away. But keep it to yourself until you find some evidence to formally challenge the scienific community. Is that asking so much?
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So, I'll ask again. Why do you say things that are obviously false?
It's not false.
You said Aristocrat demanded "that we should not criticize evolution." He actually said "Criticize away."
You lied.
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ETA: What have I said that you think is not true?
Already explained.
Indulge me. What have I said that you think is not true?
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 9:28:33 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1063
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
A very high percentage of scientists accept evolution, and that's why it is taught in science classes.
A very high percentage of people you label "scientists,"
A very high percentage of people who have advanced degrees in scientific disciplines. They are perfectly qualified to understand how science works and what is scientific.
quote:
Science welcomes academic freedom and open inquiry
Certainly, but when matters have been settled, science moves on. Heliocentrism, relativity, and evolution are well established and successful theories. Science offers ways to challenge them, but the detractors of these theories have not risen to the challenge, so to speak.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 11:40:55 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1374
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
So, do you take the position that teachers should be allowed to teach both sides of the issue if they want to?
Most high school teachers arent qualified to make such decisions.
You didn't answer my question.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 11:44:29 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1374
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
You lied.
No I did not. He wants us to keep our criticisms to ourselves, in other words, he doesn't want us to criticize evolution (at least not in a manner that exposes others to those criticisms). He is demanding that we not exercise our freedom of speech.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 7/28/2008 12:55:19 AM >
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/27/2008 11:51:22 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1374
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
A very high percentage of people who have advanced degrees in scientific disciplines. They are perfectly qualified to understand how science works and what is scientific.
Then they should also be able to justify their position to students by also exposing those students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views (or allowing teachers to do so). If they are correct, they should have no problems refuting those criticisms and opposing views and exposing students to both sides of the issue will only further educate them about why evolution stands up to scrutiny while criticisms and opposing views don't. If not even qualified scientists can defend evolution in the face of scrutiny to the degree that they must censor criticisms and opposing views from students, then there is no reason for anyone to take evolution seriously.
quote:
Certainly, but when matters have been settled, science moves on. Heliocentrism, relativity, and evolution are well established and successful theories. Science offers ways to challenge them, but the detractors of these theories have not risen to the challenge, so to speak.
Again, if evolution is so well settled, then the secular community should have no problems being able to refute those criticisms and opposing views after exposing students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views. Doing such will only further their education and help them to become better critical thinkers. The fact is that evolution stands entirely on tax dollars (and not evidence) and without tax dollars, it would fall apart completely.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 7:02:56 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 507
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
You lied.
No I did not. He wants us to keep our criticisms to ourselves, in other words, he doesn't want us to criticize evolution (at least not in a manner that exposes others to those criticisms). He is demanding that we not exercise our freedom of speech.
He is not demanding any such thing. He said, "Criticize away."
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 7:10:36 AM
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drj11
Posts: 632
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
A very high percentage of people who have advanced degrees in scientific disciplines. They are perfectly qualified to understand how science works and what is scientific.
Then they should also be able to justify their position to students by also exposing those students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views (or allowing teachers to do so). If they are correct, they should have no problems refuting those criticisms and opposing views and exposing students to both sides of the issue will only further educate them about why evolution stands up to scrutiny while criticisms and opposing views don't. If not even qualified scientists can defend evolution in the face of scrutiny to the degree that they must censor criticisms and opposing views from students, then there is no reason for anyone to take evolution seriously.
quote:
Certainly, but when matters have been settled, science moves on. Heliocentrism, relativity, and evolution are well established and successful theories. Science offers ways to challenge them, but the detractors of these theories have not risen to the challenge, so to speak.
Again, if evolution is so well settled, then the secular community should have no problems being able to refute those criticisms and opposing views after exposing students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views. Doing such will only further their education and help them to become better critical thinkers. The fact is that evolution stands entirely on tax dollars (and not evidence) and without tax dollars, it would fall apart completely.
And we're back to this again. If there were actually a strong opposing view, perhaps it could be presented. As it is, there isnt a single one.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 11:48:47 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1063
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
A very high percentage of people who have advanced degrees in scientific disciplines. They are perfectly qualified to understand how science works and what is scientific.
Then they should also be able to justify their position to students by also exposing those students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views (or allowing teachers to do so). If they are correct, they should have no problems refuting those criticisms and opposing views and exposing students to both sides of the issue will only further educate them about why evolution stands up to scrutiny while criticisms and opposing views don't. If not even qualified scientists can defend evolution in the face of scrutiny to the degree that they must censor criticisms and opposing views from students, then there is no reason for anyone to take evolution seriously.
No one is censoring anybody. Science has just moved on. It's a settled issue. Apart from the historical interest surrounding Ptolemy, phlogiston, and Paley, there's not much point in discussing failed ideas in high school textbooks or classes.
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quote:
Certainly, but when matters have been settled, science moves on. Heliocentrism, relativity, and evolution are well established and successful theories. Science offers ways to challenge them, but the detractors of these theories have not risen to the challenge, so to speak.
Again, if evolution is so well settled, then the secular community should have no problems being able to refute those criticisms and opposing views
The scientific community has already done so to its collective near-unanimous satisfaction.
quote:
after exposing students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views.
The high school classroom is not where the matter is to be decided. The brains of high schoolers is not where the matter is to be decided. The matter has already been decided for a century or more, by the people best qualified to make that judgment.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 4:07:45 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 410
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
after exposing students to the strongest criticisms and opposing views.
The high school classroom is not where the matter is to be decided. The brains of high schoolers is not where the matter is to be decided. The matter has already been decided for a century or more, by the people best qualified to make that judgment.
You make a very good point if I may elaborate. If ID proponents had their way, it would be like telling students that a century of research in almost every science discipline by thousands of scientists belonging to well over 100 science organizations had failed. That what had been proven somehow had failed. That the results of scientific tests reaching conclusions upon which further research was founded was a failure. That the hard work and lifetime commitments of biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, etc etc etc....had ultimately failed.
Who with any conscience could teach that?
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 4:45:34 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7794
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You make a very good point if I may elaborate. If ID proponents had their way, it would be like telling students that a century of research in almost every science discipline by thousands of scientists belonging to well over 100 science organizations had failed. That what had been proven somehow had failed. That the results of scientific tests reaching conclusions upon which further research was founded was a failure. That the hard work and lifetime commitments of biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, etc etc etc....had ultimately failed.
Who with any conscience could teach that?
Oh heavens we can't possibly question 100's of science organizations - what overlords would lead us to a bright future without poverty, ignorance, and fossil fuels?
I mean if if students started questioning the conventional wisdom of science through critical thinking and demands for proof, they might actually engage in science!!!!
Better they sit quietly and accept whatever notions they are spoon fed without saying a peep.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 4:59:39 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 410
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You make a very good point if I may elaborate. If ID proponents had their way, it would be like telling students that a century of research in almost every science discipline by thousands of scientists belonging to well over 100 science organizations had failed. That what had been proven somehow had failed. That the results of scientific tests reaching conclusions upon which further research was founded was a failure. That the hard work and lifetime commitments of biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, etc etc etc....had ultimately failed.
Who with any conscience could teach that?
Oh heavens we can't possibly question 100's of science organizations - what overlords would lead us to a bright future without poverty, ignorance, and fossil fuels? All I'm hearing from you is sour grapes. Is that because you cannot directly address my comments constructively?
quote:
I mean if if students started questioning the conventional wisdom of science through critical thinking and demands for proof, they might actually engage in science!!!! This isn't about wisdom. It's about science and what man has learned about it in the past century. It should be taught without interference.
quote:
Better they sit quietly and accept whatever notions they are spoon fed without saying a peep.
First they learn what is established science. Only after that should they able to question it's efficacy.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 5:52:45 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7794
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
All I'm hearing from you is sour grapes. Is that because you cannot directly address my comments constructively?
Who, me criticize 100's of scientists? Anathema.
quote:
This isn't about wisdom. It's about science and what man has learned about it in the past century. It should be taught without interference.
That's what I said - those little upstarts should be taught to be quiet and believe what we tell them without question.
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First they learn what is established science. Only after that should they able to question it's efficacy.
Well, based on the responses I have seen in this thread, apparently some never question it.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 6:30:07 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 410
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
All I'm hearing from you is sour grapes. Is that because you cannot directly address my comments constructively?
Who, me criticize 100's of scientists? Anathema.
Actually 144 International Science organizations, not individual scientists who do not accept Creationism or ID. These scientists who you so playfully cajole about are the very ones who you want so badly to accept ID. So, they either know what they are doing enought that acceptance of your stance is important to you, or they do not, in which case why would you want your highly esteemed ID taught alongside such a failed science such as the Theory of Evolution.
You are mixed up Jhud.
quote:
quote:
This isn't about wisdom. It's about science and what man has learned about it in the past century. It should be taught without interference.
That's what I said - those little upstarts should be taught to be quiet and believe what we tell them without question. My child is not an upstart but he goes to school to learn not be played like a political football.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 6:50:45 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I mean if if students started questioning the conventional wisdom of science through critical thinking and demands for proof, they might actually engage in science!!!!
Better they sit quietly and accept whatever notions they are spoon fed without saying a peep.
If students are actually learning science, they are learning critical thinking and how important it is to science.
For that matter, they should be learning critical thinking in every class. It is just as important in English and history as science.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 8:38:07 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7794
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Actually 144 International Science organizations, not individual scientists who do not accept Creationism or ID. These scientists who you so playfully cajole about are the very ones who you want so badly to accept ID. So, they either know what they are doing enought that acceptance of your stance is important to you, or they do not, in which case why would you want your highly esteemed ID taught alongside such a failed science such as the Theory of Evolution.
You are mixed up Jhud.
Actually, I could care less whether or not they ever 'accept' ID - my beliefs (scientific or otherwise) aren't the product of democratic vote.
Just as I didn't think foreign policy should be the product of the opinion of the Union of Concerned Scientists in the '80s, or that economic policy should be the product of the consensus of climatologists now, I do not think educational policy should be the product of Dawkins and his ilk.
quote:
My child is not an upstart but he goes to school to learn not be played like a political football.
My children go to school to learn how to think critically, not mindlessly absorb whatever they are told.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 9:30:55 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1374
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
My children go to school to learn how to think critically, not mindlessly absorb whatever they are told.
Evolution is too insecure to allow for critical thinking.
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RE: Allah supports Creationism. - 7/28/2008 10:27:11 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 410
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, I could care less whether or not they ever 'accept' ID - my beliefs (scientific or otherwise) aren't the product of democratic vote. No one's is, Jhud. We all want for our children what you want for yours. We are no different that way.
quote:
Just as I didn't think foreign policy should be the product of the opinion of the Union of Concerned Scientists in the '80s, or that economic policy should be the product of the consensus of climatologists now, I do not think educational policy should be the product of Dawkins and his ilk. I can understand Dawkins being a target of your angst, but not the Theory of Evolution.
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quote:
My child is not an upstart but he goes to school to learn not be played like a political football.
My children go to school to learn how to think critically, not mindlessly absorb whatever they are told.
They are not told anything. They are given an education. They have the opportunity to come out of the starting gate with the same knowledge and skills as thier peers. How they are influenced at home is not the public schools business, but whatever they are taught at home is not for mandatory dissemination in public schools by parents such as yourself.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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