Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

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Isaiah29 -> Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/18/2008 1:32:24 PM)
Greetings in Christ, In John’s vision of the apocalypse, he sees the Lamb opening a series of seven seals. As each seal is opened, a particular event occurs or is recorded. When the first four seals are opened, he sees four horses and their respective riders come forth. Even as Daniel saw four kingdoms that would arise in opposition to the kingdom of Israel, these horses and riders represent movements which have set themselves in opposition to the Kingdom of God as is evident by the opening of fifth seal which depicts the altar, under which the souls of those who had been "slain for the Word of God and for the testimony (the Gospel) they held" reside. Indeed, as we shall see, these four movements will have been responsible for the death of millions of Christians and Jews. Hence, it is scarcely any wonder that those who had been slain should be impatient awaiting their vindication. First Seal And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, "Come and see". And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev. 1-2 When the Lamb opens this seal, the first living creature calls John to witness a white horse and rider come forth. There are certain clues given to us regarding the identity of this horse and rider. The first being that the horse is white. In Scripture the color white is often used to describe purity or righteousness: However, as this movement is in opposition to the Word of God and the Gospel, the white it wears represents a counterfeit righteousness that one might expect to find in a counterfeit religion. That the rider is given a crown suggests that he will be the authority figure of that religion. Indeed, as we shall soon find out, he will be the sole authority. Probably the most telling feature of this particular rider is that he carries a bow, which is representative of archery. Hence, archery will figure in to his persona in some important way. Surprisingly, the first archer mentioned in the Bible was Ishmael. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. Gen. 21:20 I am somewhat astonished that more has not been made of this archery connection, for like a perfectly crafted key, the bow unlocks the very essence of the passage, grounding it firmly into the pages of the first book of the Bible. Whatever this religion will be, it will trace its lineage back to Ishmael, who stood in opposition to Isaac for the blessing of Abraham. John also states that the rider "went forth conquering and to conquer" indicating that this religion will be expand through conquest rather than conversion. Only one religion fits all four of these parameters: Islam, with Mohammed as its sole leader and the Qur'an as its holy book. As the saying goes: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed as his prophet." Indeed, since Mohammed traced his ancestry back to Ishmael as do his Arab followers, the Arabs claim a bloodline all the way back to the patriarch Abraham. When Mohammed supposedly ascended to heaven in his dream, he rode a white horse named Buraq. Also when he entered into Mecca, he rode a white horse (see below, notes: 1). Indeed, the Shiite Moslems await the return of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi, who is said will appear also riding a white horse. Finally, when Moslems make their pilgrimage to Mecca, which they must do once in their lifetimes, they must put on white robes before they can circle the Kaaba. Islam is the first counterfeit religion that set itself in opposition to the Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is also the largest. Moslems deny the divinity of Jesus as well as His death and resurrection. Hence they deny salvation through Jesus’ atonement on the cross. Theirs’ is a works based religion that cannot save, but nevertheless offers the appearance of righteousness through adherence to the Qur’an and the maintenance of good works. From its very inception, Islam expanded through bloody conquest and now has spread throughout the globe infecting over a billion of the worlds’ inhabitants with its doctrine. Second Seal And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, "Come and see". And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. Rev. 3-4 Here we have a movement that will be associated with the color red that will cause great unrest and spawn many revolutions. Even the most casual observer of human history cannot help but associate the color "red" with "communism". Communists refer to themselves as "reds" and even China is referred to as "Red China", since it became communist in 1949. The term "reds" however originated with the early communists known as "Jacobins " in France during the French Revolution. They wore signature red hats and became known simply as "reds". Communism is an atheistic world view that actually sees religion as an enemy, the "opiate of the people" as Marx would put it. Communism places the state above the individual, who only exists to serve the state or the "greater good", as it is sometimes euphemistically called. The ideology is formulated upon class warfare, and wherever it has been introduced, death and destruction has been soon to follow. One need only to examine the bloody excesses of the French Revolution and its attendant "reign of terror" to glimpse how quickly the utopian dream could degenerate into a horrid nightmare. Though the French Revolution was only an early attempt at communism, the later Russian and Chinese experiments would prove even bloodier. In all three cases, churches were burned and Christians and Jews were slaughtered. (even though many of the early communists were Jewish and Stalin had been a Jesuit!). Ironically, communism is predicated upon the "brotherhood of man", but as was the case with Cain and Abel, brothers can be pretty violent, and such is the case with communism, and so it was with the French Revolution. Napoleon was able to ride that bloody horse to great victory before he was finally defeated at Waterloo, but his legacy lived on with the Napoleonic Code. Ironically he had a "great sword" which was recently sold at public auction for the unheard of price of 6.5 million dollars. "and there was given unto him a great sword" "It's a world record for a souvenir of the emperor, for a sword and for a weapon in general," auction house spokesman Bernard Croissy said." ( see notes: 2) Third Seal And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, "Come and see". And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, "A measure of wheat for a denarius, and three measures of barley for a denarius; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine" Rev. 6:5-6 Here we have what at first appears to be capitalism, given that the rider on the black horse holds a pair of balances. But then a voice in the midst of the four beasts ascribes a particularly high value for specific commodities, which is something one would not normally expect in a purely capitalistic system. Indeed, capitalism depends on the fluidity of the market place (supply and demand) in order to generate profit, so there is obviously more going on than is immediately apparent, especially since capitalism had been around since before Abraham bought Ephron’s field at Machpelah for the outrageous sum of 400 shekels of silver. Perhaps it has more to do with the values of the commodities that are being mentioned. A denarius was considered to be a day’s wages during the time of John’s writing. Hence, to spend a day’s wages for a measure of wheat or three measures of barely would seem somewhat excessive, as if there were a famine or depression going on. The fact that a voice arbitrarily could determine the value of these commodities indicates a form of control over commodity pricing, such as what one might see in a fascist society in which the government controls the industry and the economy. In fact, it was in the milieu of a worldwide depression that the rise of fascism, especially that of Nazi Germany was allowed to occur. The collapse of the world wide stock market in 1929 and subsequent "Great Depression" that followed set a perfect stage for the fascism. Hitler’s exploited the German people’s desire for a strong leader to bring them out of their economic crisis. Using the example of Nietzsche’s "ubermensch" or "overman", who through self discipline and will to power would not shrink from the exercise of power, thus effectively lacking any moral restraint, Hitler presented himself as the new "Der Furher". Once he consolidated his grip on Germany, he set out to conquer the rest of the world much in the same way Napoleon did, with even more disastrous consequences. Once again, churches were burned and Christians and Jews were persecuted. To give his regime that extra satanic boost, Hitler dressed his elite SS troops in solid black uniforms, red swastikas, and silver death head insignia. Hitler even rode a black horse. (see notes 3 & 4) Hitler may not have been The Anti-Christ, but he certainly fit the pattern of an anti-Christ. It is hard to imagine a more satanically centered, death oriented environment as that which existed in the Third Reich. Incidentally the Nazi’s loved to drink, especially French wine, and had a constant need for oil to fuel their war machine, "see thou hurt not the oil and the wine". Fourth Seal And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, "Come and see". And I looked, and behold a pale (green) horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev. 6: 8 The last horse and rider are the most destructive of all since the rider is identified as death personified. This is especially unusual since the color of the horse is "chloros", the greek word for green from which we get chlorophyll, the substance in plants that give them their green color. John uses the word two other times in his book; to describe the color of grass in Rev. 8: 7, and to denote "green" things in Rev. 9: 4. The only other time in the New Testament "chloros" is used is in the Gospel of Mark when Jesus made the multitudes sit down upon the "green" grass. (see Mark 6: 39) That the translators would use the word pale in this one instance, when in all the other instances they use green for chloros is understandable. After all, who has ever seen a green horse, and if green denotes healthy living things, how can death be riding it? However, if one were to look at each of the preceeding horses, each horse camouflaged its true nature. Islam masquerades as a righteous religion, a religion of peace in modern parlance; communism masquerades as true equality, the "brotherhood of man", fascism masqueraded as prosperity, the union of business and government; and this new green horse masquerades as environmentalism, the salvation of planet earth. How can environmentalism be destructive? If the enemy of the environment is seen to be mankind, then radical environmentalism will seek to curb mankind’s role in the environment, first by limiting then by eliminating humanity itself, by culling the human herd. There is a Green movement afoot whose intentions are to diminish mankind’s carbon footprint. According to the "Limits of Growth", a report prepared by the Club of Rome in 1972, we have already surpassed our population threshold. In short, there are too many people for planet earth to sustain life. We are using up vital resources needed for future generations. The latest maneuver in this regard is that the planet will heat up due to excessive CO2 in the atmosphere, the earth will reach some sort of tipping point, entire species will go extinct, and we will all die. So the Green movement seeks to scale back on industrial nations' growth and at the same time limit the growth of the third world. They intend to put a choke hold on the world’s energy, and thereby limit the production as well as the supply of much of the world’s commodities. To achieve this end, they need a global organization with global control. In short, they need a one world government, so that people won’t be able to buy or sell unless they receive some kind of mark, like a RFID chip in their hand or in their forehead. This is precisely why Mikhail Gorbachov left the USSR and went to the UN, because he knew the UN would be the power center of the NWO. He heads up UNESCO and has also founded Green Cross International. The Green movement is a religion complete with its own Ark of Hope, located at the UN; (see notes: 5); with its own false prophet, Al Gore; (see notes: 6); and its own savior, Prince Charles who received not only the Global Environmental Citizen Award, which was presented by Al Gore, but also the statue in his honor proclaiming him to be "Savior of the World" (see notes: 7 &8) The Green movement is diabolical in the sense those who resist their siren call to save the planet are branded as "polluters" and "deniers". Once again Christians and Jews are singled out as standing in the way of progress, unwilling to yield to the call of saving the planet. The problem lies in the fact that Christians know that the problem facing the planet is not pollution, but rather sin. Environmentalists know no sin other than pollution, hence they are guilty of worshipping the creature instead of the creator. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 1: 25 In closing it is important to realize that all four of the horses are still among us, though the first three riders may not be. As such Christians face threats on four fronts simultaneously, which is why we seem to be in such a hard spot with our only hope being from above and within us: Jesus Christ, Immanuel, God with us! Notes: 1:http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_face_hidden/ 2: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6737909.stm 3: http://www.45thdivision.org/Photo_Gallery/gallery_Hall.htm 4: http://www.carleton.ca/sjc/capitalarts/images/s10photo1.jpg 5: LINK 6: http://www.politicsonline.com/blog/images/2006/al%20gore.jpg 7: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1857482.stm 8: http://www.torahaudio.com/Articles/prince.html In Christ, Ariel [Post edited by mod to fix screen formatting]

cybrjewls -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/18/2008 2:21:30 PM)
Greetings favorable Isaiah29! Please notice that The Lamb of God opens the Prophecy scroll for these time periods personally for it is written: The Lamb has prevailed to be found Worthy to open the Scroll of Prophecy concerning earth! For He Is Worthy to be Praised, forever, and ever, Amen and Amen. There is much to talk about here. However, the color of the fourth horseman is a throneroom rainbow color as written signifying the completion period of time of the fourth creature that is in heaven, embodied as the eagle (As in one of the four faces in Ezekiel), which is covered with eyes all around for the vision of the peoples on earth; and especially of The Holy Faith found In Christ Jesus. For it is written: the nations will walk by His Light. And, a people without vision will perish. And, The Glories of the nations was brought into (redeemed) the city of New Jerusalem; the Holy City of God ordained forever in the New Earth to come. This parallels the events of the worldly kingdom on earth of the fourth Empire that is to come and from this Empire will, eventually, arise 10 rulers over the whole earth who will persecute The People of The Faith of God worldwide , along with the beast from the earth which is the false worldly prophet of lucifer who will oppose 3 of them to make 8 as written, while the two olive branches prophecy at Jerusalem for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. The Chosen, and Called, and Faithful among the Judean Peoples will have protection from the false worldly prophet as written: where she will be taken care of for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years out of the reach of the Dragon. Then, there will be 3 1/2 days for the two witnesses to lay dead in the street with their enemies looking on. Then, as written, (including the 3 1/2 days) 30-75 more days and they that are in Jerusalem must flee to hills as Christ has written: where there are dead bodies, the vultures will gather. Then there will be a time of Great Throneroom Edicted Judgments regarding the behavior of the peoples on earth as written as trumpet and bowl Judgments in Revelation and in Daniel: where it says that Desolations have been Decreed (By God) and that this false worldly prophet proclaims in the Holy of Holies to be God and Greater than God will be called the Abomination that causes Desolations to be Issued upon the followers of the false worldly antichrist prophet. As written in The Apostle: therefore God sends them a powerful delusion, that they may believe the lie. Those that are Martyred for refusing to take the mark of the false worldly prophet which is the number of the name of the false worldly prophet will be eligible to receive the election of 1000 years Reign with Christ as Priests in The Millennium as written; at Christ's discretion. These events are but a shadow of the things to come, as written. The title: Christ means 'more than conquerer', King of kings on earth below and Blessed and Holy Prince of The Fulfillment Covenant of God Almighty. For He has written in revelation: and I saw that the place where the Ark of The Covenant of The God of Heaven was opened. 'Your Kingdom Come on earth, as it is in Heaven.' quote: ORIGINAL: Isaiah29 Greetings in Christ,

MichaelTheeArchAngel -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/18/2008 7:22:17 PM)
A white horse symbolizes victory. In ancient days a victor was paraded on a white horse. You should note that in Rev 6:1 the white horse rider has only one crown; And over in Rev 19:12 the white horse rider (Jesus) has many crowns. Michael comes before the two witnesses.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/18/2008 8:48:24 PM)
The four horsemen are seen coming out of the Heavenly realm in Zechariah 6. Zechariah is told they are spirits who go to work in the world. They are paralleled by Jesus' description of the beginning of birth pains. I think the four are responsible for preparing the world for God's timetable for the end-times.

MichaelTheeArchAngel -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 12:32:37 AM)
I would like to state that people have spirits. Also, the red horse is Islam. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint The four horsemen are seen coming out of the Heavenly realm in Zechariah 6. Zechariah is told they are spirits who go to work in the world. They are paralleled by Jesus' description of the beginning of birth pains. I think the four are responsible for preparing the world for God's timetable for the end-times.

MichaelTheeArchAngel -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 12:37:31 AM)
In regards to Zachriah: The black horse goes to Russia; the red horse is the Midddle East; the white horse goes to America; and the dapple horse went to Austrailia.

cybrjewls -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 9:47:33 AM)
LOL!! I think you are correct since, Michael already kicked the Dragon out of the upper Heavenly Realms as written and the devil was very mad and persecuted the Christian Church; and pursued the Judean People of God afterwards. Then, they are delivered from hitler, then they will be delivered at The Testimony of Two Witnesses for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. Then, they must flee from Jerusalem to the hills as Jesus said after 3 days for the Abomination that causes Desolation will be set up in The Temple of God Almighty and for 30-75 days more, they will have to endure the calamity along with The Christian Church. If this occurs on the Sabbath, there will be Judgment Ordinance Decrees issued upon the whole earth as recorded in Revelation, but Jesus said to pray for this to not be the case. Yet, it is written that these Desolations will, in fact, be issued. For God is Supreme and frustrates the so-called 'wisdom' of the 'wise' and the knowledge of peoples are nothing before Him. Therefore, take flight from Jerusalem before this occurs, if on the sabbath day it falls, during the 3 day period of the dead bodies of the two witnesses that the peoples on the earth celebrate with 'Christmas' gift giving. quote: ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel A white horse symbolizes victory. In ancient days a victor was paraded on a white horse. You should note that in Rev 6:1 the white horse rider has only one crown; And over in Rev 19:12 the white horse rider (Jesus) has many crowns. Michael comes before the two witnesses.

cybrjewls -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 10:15:13 AM)
LOL!! Please notice that the black rider on the horse in the upper Heavenly Realms over the earth in the spiritual can, in fact, be riding during the time of the Holy Roman Empire and the times of the Byzantine Empire; which occur in historical succession in accordance with The Testimony of Jesus to John The Apostle. Also, since God Is Sovereign over all things, these horses can ride anywhere at anytime; yet we are given a basic chronological framework with respect to the Holy City of Jerusalem of the events that will occur. Alexander the Great who is prophesied about in Daniel, as well, may be coincidal with the rider on the white horse who in Ezekiel goes to the northern peoples as conquerer as you had mentioned. Thus, the prophecy given in Revelation is with respect to those events surrounding and immediately preceeding, of course, the Coming of The Messiah Jesus Christ The Lord and Savior of all that would believe on His Name. For God stands outside of time and Is Timeless. The dappled horse goes to the south to African states, as we see that they have had many phenomenon over past centuries that are of different and mixed nature. With respect to The Holy City of Jerusalem and the Empires that will directly be involved with Her, we see that the dappled horse is not mentioned in Revelation regarding this specific Prophetic Scroll that was revealed to John The Apostle by Jesus. While there may be many scrolls of Prophecy for The Lord to issue forth concerning nations and peoples over the past millenniums, we see that there is no need for this retroactive revelation to be given the peoples. For God had said 'woe to those who ask The Lord to hurry up His Work that we may see it.' And: 'though seeing, they may not perceive, though hearing, they may not understand.....'. And 'it is not for you to know the times and the seasons which The Father has Set by His Own Authority.' And yet, Jesus said hypocrites! You can interpret the weather for seasons and rainfall, but you do not perceive what season it is in the spiritual. For God has ordained these worldly events in the sight of all mankind and The Apostle says there is no excuse for disbelieving in God for this reason. And, how 'slow you are to believe all that is written in The Prophets of God.' And, 'how dull you are .....'. For it is written: iron sharpens iron, and one must sharpen ones sword to razor sharp divisions for a student fully trained will be like his Teacher and we have One Teacher, God Alone, through Jesus Christ our Lord. For Jesus will divide between soul and spirit. For it is written: that this child of Israel had been captive to foreign spirits and powers, but Christ set them free. For if the Son of Man sets you free, you will be free for sure. For if our spirits were free, while others were enslaved with uncleanness to satanic elements; then how will we escape the Great and Terrible Day of The Lord when we could have done many things and were set 'free' to do them on earth for Christ and Christ had said to his servants to be my slave and bondservant for a short time period and then We will make our home with you and dwell with you? Rather than serving our own evil desires and lusts of the flesh, we could escape the Greater Reckoning that could occur regarding all That God Had Done For us while others suffered and received their good things not. For it is written: 'away from Me you workers of iniquity and sin.' It is not written to make no effort to enter, but instead to make every effort and to make the most of every opportunity given. Lazarus is comforted, the so-called 'rich' man who has The Temple of God and The Law and The Prophets was not. quote: ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel I would like to state that people have spirits. Also, the red horse is Islam. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint The four horsemen are seen coming out of the Heavenly realm in Zechariah 6. Zechariah is told they are spirits who go to work in the world. They are paralleled by Jesus' description of the beginning of birth pains. I think the four are responsible for preparing the world for God's timetable for the end-times.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 10:40:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MichaelTheeArchAngel I would like to state that people have spirits. Also, the red horse is Islam. Well, there're all kinds of opinions on the horses... but most view the red one as war. Now Islam is a Satanic religion spread on the point of a sword, but Islam has not been the worst offender in the taking of life. That title remains for God-less totalitarianism like Communism (Russia and China and their surogates), Fascism (Italy mid-20th century) and Socialism (in Nazi Germany) which occurred in the 20th century. One thing about the Spirits is that one leads to the next in a way of thinking. Skipping the first, which so many people have so many opinions, war causes economic disaster, which in turn sets up for disease and death. Other attributes which lend a clue to the nature of the Spirits are the Creatures who call them out. Still more can be discerned by the tools they are given. All this is besides their color... For my list, I order the Spirits as influencing the world in this way: 1. Industrial Revolution/Capitalism (which makes possible:) 2. War (which leads to:) 3. Economic straits (which causes:) 4. Death and disease (which also have a rapid onset) There are many types of anti-Christs and Capitialism is but one. It has conquered the world without firing a shot in the cases of Russia and China - and - it is seen as a force of good in the world (Rush Limbaugh credits it for saving people's lives...) and so wears a white hat. Like I said, there are many opinions, mine is unique and as such is just one of the many. I'm sure we'll know in the end the true nature and fulfillment of the four horsemen, but for now all we can do is watch. Speculation runs rampant, and in an idle way, it's not harmful as long as we remember the essentials of being like Christ in our daily lives.

Isaiah29 -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 10:47:44 AM)
Greetings favorable Isaiah29! Please notice that The Lamb of God opens the Prophecy scroll for these time periods personally for it is written: The Lamb has prevailed to be found Worthy to open the Scroll of Prophecy concerning earth! For He Is Worthy to be Praised, forever, and ever, Amen and Amen. There is much to talk about here. However, the color of the fourth horseman is a throneroom rainbow color as written signifying the completion period of time of the fourth creature that is in heaven, embodied as the eagle (As in one of the four faces in Ezekiel), which is covered with eyes all around for the vision of the peoples on earth; and especially of The Holy Faith found In Christ Jesus. For it is written: the nations will walk by His Light. And, a people without vision will perish. And, The Glories of the nations was brought into (redeemed) the city of New Jerusalem; the Holy City of God ordained forever in the New Earth to come. This parallels the events of the worldly kingdom on earth of the fourth Empire that is to come and from this Empire will, eventually, arise 10 rulers over the whole earth who will persecute The People of The Faith of God worldwide , along with the beast from the earth which is the false worldly prophet of lucifer who will oppose 3 of them to make 8 as written, while the two olive branches prophecy at Jerusalem for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. The Chosen, and Called, and Faithful among the Judean Peoples will have protection from the false worldly prophet as written: where she will be taken care of for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years out of the reach of the Dragon. Then, there will be 3 1/2 days for the two witnesses to lay dead in the street with their enemies looking on. Then, as written, (including the 3 1/2 days) 30-75 more days and they that are in Jerusalem must flee to hills as Christ has written: where there are dead bodies, the vultures will gather. Then there will be a time of Great Throneroom Edicted Judgments regarding the behavior of the peoples on earth as written as trumpet and bowl Judgments in Revelation and in Daniel: where it says that Desolations have been Decreed (By God) and that this false worldly prophet proclaims in the Holy of Holies to be God and Greater than God will be called the Abomination that causes Desolations to be Issued upon the followers of the false worldly antichrist prophet. As written in The Apostle: therefore God sends them a powerful delusion, that they may believe the lie. Those that are Martyred for refusing to take the mark of the false worldly prophet which is the number of the name of the false worldly prophet will be eligible to receive the election of 1000 years Reign with Christ as Priests in The Millennium as written; at Christ's discretion. These events are but a shadow of the things to come, as written. The title: Christ means 'more than conquerer', King of kings on earth below and Blessed and Holy Prince of The Fulfillment Covenant of God Almighty. For He has written in revelation: and I saw that the place where the Ark of The Covenant of The God of Heaven was opened. 'Your Kingdom Come on earth, as it is in Heaven.' Greetings favorable Cybrjewls, Thank you for your thoughtful and well written response. I agree with much of what you have said. There will certainly be a fourth kindom out of which will arise 10 kings and the anti-Christ who will subdue (or supplant) three kings. That they will persecute the people of God is without dispute and your timetable is Scriptural. There are, however, certain errors which need to be addressed. The first two are simply definitional, the third is somewhat more problematic 1: The color of the fourth horse is "chloros" or "green" as I have already detailed in my previous post. 2: "Christ" comes from "christos" meaning "anointed", hence Jesus Christ is literally Jesus "the anointed". If you were to transcribe his full name, it is: "God is Salvation, the anointed one". However,I do agree that He is more than a conquerer, for He is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. 3: The fourth living creature whose face is that of an eagle represents the view of Jesus as "God" as presented in the Gospel of John. In short order, there are four Gospels, and there are four "living creatures". Remembering that the Word of God is "living, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword"(Heb. 4:12), consider the following: a: The first "living creature" has the face of a lion, symbolic of kingship, the "Lion of Judah". Matthew's Gospel traces Jesus' lineage through King David, hence when the wise men from the east came to offer sacrifices to him they asked: "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?" Mat. 2: 2 b: The second "living creature" has the face of a calf. This is slightly different from Ezekiel's account, who saw the face of an ox (also in Ezekiel's account the cherubim each had four faces). The ox is symbolic of servanthood, however, unblemished calves were given as sacrifice. So in a sence, Mark presents Jesus as a "servant/ sacrifice". Notice that Mark is also the shortest book and is somewhat abbreviated, exactly as Jesus' time on earth was and as a calf who was sacrificed also would have been. c: The third "living creature" has the face of a man, and Luke traces Jesus' geneology all the way back to Adam, the first man. Luke also gives many more historical and geographical details which pinpoint Jesus in time and place. In the birth narrative no mention is made of Jesus' kingship, but rather the lowly state of his birth. Luke's gospel is also highly reflective of Jesus' humanity and His humility as is also evidenced by His concern for the poor in parables not found in the other Gospels, eg. Lazarus and the Rich Man, the Good Samaritan et al. d: The fourth "living creature" has the face of an eagle, which is representative of God (see Ex. 19:4) From beginning to end, John's Gospel presents Jesus as God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". John 1: 1 & John 1: 14. In John's Gospel Jesus also makes the bold statement: "I and my Father are one". John 10:30 You were correct in pointing out the fourth living creature had the face of an eagle, which is especially siginficant because the rider on the fourth horse will also present himself as God: "Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" 2Thes. 2: 4 The Anti-Christ will claim that he is God, and he will ride the Green horse, of that much I am certain. Of particular interest is that even as each Gospel presents a particular image of Jesus as is represented in the faces of the cherubim, each horse and rider seeks to supplant that particular image with that of its own. Islam supplants the kingship of Jesus with that of Mohammed. Communism supplants the sacrifice of Jesus with the sacrifice of the ruling class. Fascism supplants Jesus' example of humility and concern for the poor with Nietzsche's "overman" and Darwin's "survival of the fittest". Environmentalism supplants Jesus role as God, especially over nature, and states that we are our own gods, capable of redeeming or destroying the world. In Christ, Ariel

Isaiah29 -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 11:22:26 AM)
Greetings favorable Isaiah29! Please notice that The Lamb of God opens the Prophecy scroll for these time periods personally for it is written: The Lamb has prevailed to be found Worthy to open the Scroll of Prophecy concerning earth! For He Is Worthy to be Praised, forever, and ever, Amen and Amen. There is much to talk about here. However, the color of the fourth horseman is a throneroom rainbow color as written signifying the completion period of time of the fourth creature that is in heaven, embodied as the eagle (As in one of the four faces in Ezekiel), which is covered with eyes all around for the vision of the peoples on earth; and especially of The Holy Faith found In Christ Jesus. For it is written: the nations will walk by His Light. And, a people without vision will perish. And, The Glories of the nations was brought into (redeemed) the city of New Jerusalem; the Holy City of God ordained forever in the New Earth to come. This parallels the events of the worldly kingdom on earth of the fourth Empire that is to come and from this Empire will, eventually, arise 10 rulers over the whole earth who will persecute The People of The Faith of God worldwide , along with the beast from the earth which is the false worldly prophet of lucifer who will oppose 3 of them to make 8 as written, while the two olive branches prophecy at Jerusalem for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. The Chosen, and Called, and Faithful among the Judean Peoples will have protection from the false worldly prophet as written: where she will be taken care of for 42 months or 1260 days or 3 1/2 years out of the reach of the Dragon. Then, there will be 3 1/2 days for the two witnesses to lay dead in the street with their enemies looking on. Then, as written, (including the 3 1/2 days) 30-75 more days and they that are in Jerusalem must flee to hills as Christ has written: where there are dead bodies, the vultures will gather. Then there will be a time of Great Throneroom Edicted Judgments regarding the behavior of the peoples on earth as written as trumpet and bowl Judgments in Revelation and in Daniel: where it says that Desolations have been Decreed (By God) and that this false worldly prophet proclaims in the Holy of Holies to be God and Greater than God will be called the Abomination that causes Desolations to be Issued upon the followers of the false worldly antichrist prophet. As written in The Apostle: therefore God sends them a powerful delusion, that they may believe the lie. Those that are Martyred for refusing to take the mark of the false worldly prophet which is the number of the name of the false worldly prophet will be eligible to receive the election of 1000 years Reign with Christ as Priests in The Millennium as written; at Christ's discretion. These events are but a shadow of the things to come, as written. The title: Christ means 'more than conquerer', King of kings on earth below and Blessed and Holy Prince of The Fulfillment Covenant of God Almighty. For He has written in revelation: and I saw that the place where the Ark of The Covenant of The God of Heaven was opened. 'Your Kingdom Come on earth, as it is in Heaven.' Greetings favorable Cybrjewls, Thank you for your thoughtful and well written response. I agree with much of what you have said. There will certainly be a fourth kindom out of which will arise 10 kings and the anti-Christ who will subdue (or supplant) three kings. That they will persecute the people of God is without dispute and your timetable is Scriptural. There are, however, certain errors which need to be addressed. The first two are simply definitional, the third is somewhat more problematic 1: The color of the fourth horse is "chloros" or "green" as I have already detailed in my previous post. 2: "Christ" comes from "christos" meaning "anointed", hence Jesus Christ is literally Jesus "the anointed". If you were to transcribe his full name, it is: "God is Salvation, the anointed one". However, I do agree that He is more than a conquerer, for He is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. 3: The fourth living creature whose face is that of an eagle represents the view of Jesus as "God" as presented in the Gospel of John. In short order, there are four Gospels, and there are four "living creatures". Remembering that the Word of God is "living and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword"(Heb. 4:12), consider the following: a: The first "living creature" has the face of a lion, symbolic of kingship, the "Lion of Judah". Matthew's Gospel traces Jesus' lineage through King David, hence when the wise men from the east came to offer sacrifices to him they asked: "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?" Mat. 2: 2 b: The second "living creature" has the face of a calf. This is slightly different from Ezekiel's account, who saw the face of an ox (also in Ezekiel's account the cherubim each had four faces). The ox is symbolic of servanthood, however, unblemished calves were given as sacrifice. So in a sence, Mark presents Jesus as a "servant/ sacrifice". Notice that Mark is also the shortest book and is somewhat abbreviated, exactly as Jesus' time on earth was and as a calf who was sacrificed also would have been. c: The third "living creature" has the face of a man, and Luke traces Jesus' geneology all the way back to Adam, the first man. Luke also gives many more historical and geographical details which pinpoint Jesus in time and place. In the birth narrative no mention is made of Jesus' kingship, but rather the lowly state of his birth. Luke's gospel is also highly reflective of Jesus' humanity and His humility as is also evidenced by His concern for the poor in parables not found in the other Gospels, eg. Lazarus and the Rich Man, the Good Samaritan et al. d: The fourth "living creature" has the face of an eagle, which is representative of God (see Ex. 19:4) From beginning to end, John's Gospel presents Jesus as God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". John 1: 1 & John 1: 14. In John's Gospel Jesus also makes the bold statement: "I and my Father are one". John 10:30 You were correct in pointing out the fourth living creature had the face of an eagle, which is especially siginficant because the rider on the fourth horse will also present himself as God: "Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" 2Thes. 2: 4 The Anti-Christ will claim that he is God, and he will ride the "chloros", "green" horse, of that much I am certain. Of particular interest is that even as each Gospel presents a particular image of Jesus as is represented in the faces of the cherubim, each horse and rider seeks to supplant that particular image with that of its own. Islam supplants the kingship of Jesus with that of Mohammed. Communism supplants the sacrifice of Jesus with the sacrifice of the ruling class. Fascism supplants Jesus' example of humility and concern for the poor with Nietzsche's "overman" and Darwin's "survival of the fittest". Environmentalism supplants Jesus' role as God, especially over nature, with us as our own gods, able to redeem or or destroy the world. The new age movement fits in nicely with this animistic view of us as gods. According to new agers such as Eckhardt Tolle, we need but find the christ that has always been within us to realize that we are already gods, which ironically is the very seductive promise offered to Eve in the Garden of Eden. "And the serpent said unto the woman, 'You shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil'." Gen. 3: 4-5 In Christ, Ariel

cybrjewls -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/19/2008 6:11:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Isaiah29 In Christ, Ariel Hello, again! The face of the fourth living creature is parallel to the vision from The Lord that he had been given as a Chosen Holy Prophet of God. It is written that 'I bore you on wings on eagles' And, 'the Woman was given the wings of an eagle to fly to the place where She will be taken care of for a time, times, and half a time.' This event occurred through the period of time of the rise of The Truman Presidency in the deliverance and re-settlement of Israel from the abomination of hitler into the Holy Land Promised by God to their forefather, Abraham, who was faithful to God and Blessed by The Messiah when He had appeared in Jerusalem as Priest of The Most High, had offered him the Holy Sacrament of Wine and Bread which is Prophesied by Jesus at the last supper in fulfillment of the Prophecies God had ordained through the Elders of Heaven; of whom there are 24 throned ones and two witnesses, as written, from across all time periods on earth. God's Holy Promise and fulfillment of Covenant through The Messiah was so powerful over satan's kingdom that he was very mad at them. With regards to the four living creatures, they are encircled around the Throneroom. They, however, coincide with the other events for John gives us the order in which they are presented at Prophecy. The fourth living creature, represents Prophecy and Prophets and the fulfillment of Joel's outpouring upon all flesh and, especailly the Holy People of The Faith of God unto prophetic gifts and utterances and dreams and visions, and wisdoms galore. For it is written: My Spirit will not contend with man forever, his days are 80 plus or so. With regards to the other teachings that you proposed to mention: Paul writes that he becomes all things to all people to win among those that are the Called Faithful and Chosen for Christ came to bring about further divisions, yet there is Unity in Him. For He has ransomed all through His Blood Atonement Sacrifice and all are justified freely through faith in Him. quote: Islam supplants the kingship of Jesus with that of Mohammed. Communism supplants the sacrifice of Jesus with the sacrifice of the ruling class. Fascism supplants Jesus' example of humility and concern for the poor with Nietzsche's "overman" and Darwin's "survival of the fittest". Environmentalism supplants Jesus role as God, especially over nature, and states that we are our own gods, capable of redeeming or destroying the world. True Islam, is not going to deny that Jesus is The Messiah; though. And there is much in common among the peoples of the belief in Islam that is redeemable as Sound Teaching. For God is Sovereign over the kingdoms of the earth without regard to dogma. For God knows what is in a person already and He has written The Prophets for us so that we would know that He had ordained Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Empire, dashed to pieces European Empire, American Empire, and the present state of the world is in His Hands; alone; with regards to which nations will prevail and for how long their Empire will remain. Communism teaches that people should share without regards to class structure for Paul the Apostle of God wrote: no rich, nor poor for those in Christ Jesus our Lord. Fascism is a Kingship Sovereignly ordained or allowed by God to exist throughout histories of peoples on the earth. Nietche was antichrist-like for Jesus is the One by which all things are defined; for all things were made through Him and in Him and for Him. In regards to The Church of God: I wish that you were either hot or cold is the Sound and Merciful Instruction of Our Lord! Darwinism teaches 'the survival of the fittest'; for it is obvious that God has ordained order in nature whereby some animals feed on others for food and others are herbivores; instead. Spiritually, Jesus said 'make every effort to enter The Kingdom of God.' and 'save yourselves from this wicked and adulterous generation.' The fittest are written about; fit for the Kingdom with their feet shod with the Gospel of Grace and Helmet of Salvation to extinguish the poisonous darts of the enemy which He gives power over to His People who Remain in Him and He in them as The Holy Apostle had Taught us. These people will counted among the worthy to remain in The Garden of God that they bear God fruits of The Spirit of God: love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Enivornmentalism is Sound Doctrine in accordance with the basic understanding of the light of men which is written to be The Word of God come in the Flesh and Sacrificed for our sins. It is written: now comes the time for destroying those who destroy the earth. For it is an abomination of the Babylon spiritual city and its citizens who leave the planet in chaos and a wreck to future generations instead of leaving it clean as possible for us and our Posterity. Although God is Sovereign and can clean it up or mitigate it for a time period, if He so chooses. For all nations ( that have ever existed) have drunk in the maddening wine of her adulteries..... sleeping around with thoughts and spiritual inundations from the evil spiritual forces that are no longer found proper before God. For it is written in The Holy Prophets of God concerning the drunken state of the people under the Judgments of The Sovereign Lord Almighty.

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/20/2008 6:33:40 AM)
Okay, I guess I have a couple of thoughts that I feel are worth airing on this particular subject... this may be my only post in this thread, so bear with me. First off, the four horsemen should not be looked at as being a parallel with Daniel 2 or Daniel 7. In Daniel, the vision is centered around four kingdoms being raised up (as Daniel makes clear in Daniel 2), however, in Revelation 5, the seals are specific events that destroy the earth. Another big reason to not look at these three as being directly related to each other is that in Revelation 5 the seals are opened by a slain-and-risen Christ... meaning that the setting of these four has to be after 30 AD at some point. Secondly, the four horsemen have specific functions that are not specifically related to past world systems in any way. The first one (the white horse) is believed by many to be the antichrist... for a laundry list of reasons that catalogue the differences between the rider of the first seal and the rider of Revelation 19. His purpose is to unite the world under one banner... supposedly bringing peace to the earth. The second is a spirit of war. His singular purpose is to take peace from the earth and cause people to kill each other. While the correlation between Communism and the color red is intriguing, not every "blue collar" worker is a liberal, and not every Republican (most often symbolized by the color red in the MSM) is a communist. Specifically, the assignment of "red" to the Communists was very arbitrary... they picked it as their color for the revolutions, so we called them reds. I think reserving the second seal to the role of communism isn't doing justice to the level of drama that will be experienced in the end-times. The third is a massive famine that will come on the earth. Why the scales and the weird tagline? Because it is talking about the cost of food going through the roof. In those days, money was calculated by weight and not by an inherent recognized value... so the merchants would have to weigh the money being given them to make sure it was enough. That is why this horsemen is carrying scales and receiving the instructions he does. The voice declaring prices is not some kind of repressive political system, but is a prophetic declaration of how much the grain will be worth in the midst of the famine... Elisha did the exact same thing when Israel came under siege. This is not talking about taking food crops to make bio-fuels, but it is talking about a massive destruction of the overall food supply. The fourth is named for us... death. It is going to be a massive plague of sorts. The black plague in the middle ages wiped out a quarter of Europe, and in today's modern society someone can be infected by a disease and be half-way around the world before they even start to get the sniffles. HIV, AIDS, West Nile Virus... these are diseases that can be acquired and transmitted without anyone realizing it. Plus with all the strange diseases emanating from China these days (SARS and Bird Flu, just to name two), it is not beyond the realm of possibility that it is merely a new disease that gets unleashed on the planet. It is a severe stretch of the imagination to say that the four horsemen are past political movements... especially since one is specifically named and is not a past political movement. (A) Ishmael was not the founder of Islam and Islam has not taken over the world (yet). (B) Communism is not dead... not even close... America is slipping closer and closer to it with almost every law they put into action. (C) The Nazis, though a foreshadowing of the antichrist's kingdom, were not the most satanic kingdom ever... they didn't even come close to Babylon... and the Antichrist is most often associated with Babylon and Rome in the canon of scripture. (D) Environmentalism, no matter how radical, is not going to slay a quarter of the population of the earth. Adam

cybrjewls -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (7/20/2008 12:20:26 PM)
Greetings! We, as men, can look at things by mere apprearances only; is not The Teachings Of Jesus Christ. If we believe in One God that is Omni....., then He stands outside of time and The Son of Man, whom He Sent into the world can also. There is no indication that the appearance of Christ Jesus by our accounting for dates has anything to do with Prophecy; except for the angelic date given for His Appearance in Daniel. For it is written it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which The Father has set by His Own Authority. For The Father Is Greater than All and He Is Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and in The Truth (The Way, The Life). If I remain in you and you in Me..... Therefore, the fourth rider on the 'Green' or chloros colored animal called a horse in the spiritual realm far above the events that occur on earth is as has happened in recent times. For instance, the war in Iraq has cost 1.2 million Iraqi lives over the course of 4 years time. This is death and hades follows closely behind as written. For it is said by people that 'war is hell' in times past. This parallels Daniel in that the emergence of the terrible monster of an Empire crushes down its enemies and tramples them to dust is as is happening to unfold currently in our time. The Black rider has that the inflation or economic realities that occur comes from among all of the living creatures from across all time periods as a voice from among them as John Prophesied. Therefore, this rider can ride among them at any time that Jesus' Prophesy determines. For the Spirit of Prophecy is The Testimony of Jesus Christ as written. We remember, though, that God Reigns Supreme and that our 'so-called' wisdom is nothing before Him for He confounds our wisdom and thinkings and God is Greater than our hearts as The Apostle has written. For The Word of God is Living and Active in the events of peoples on earth. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. quote: ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin First off, the four horsemen should not be looked at as being a parallel with Daniel 2 or Daniel 7. In Daniel, the vision is centered around four kingdoms being raised up (as Daniel makes clear in Daniel 2), however, in Revelation 5, the seals are specific events that destroy the earth. Another big reason to not look at these three as being directly related to each other is that in Revelation 5 the seals are opened by a slain-and-risen Christ... meaning that the setting of these four has to be after 30 AD at some point.

Diolectic -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/11/2008 12:59:59 PM)
Chapter 6 The Four Horsemen of “The Revelations of Jesus Christ” 1st Seal: (Ref. Zec 6:1-8) Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, come and see. :2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Ref. Zec 6:11,14 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaks the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD::13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. :14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD. 5115. ôïìêïí toxon tox'-on from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow. 4735. óôåìöáíïò stephanos stef'-an-os from an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, 1238), literally or figuratively:--crown. Note: The word for white is the same word to explain Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Matt. 17:2 The bow in his hand is like a ribbon in the form of a bow, like one would receive as a prize (blue ribbon or bow is for first place). This would make sense because He has a crown which is also a prize. This horse refers to Jesus in chapter 12: 5-10 which describes Jesus winning the battle and conquered Satan. Rev 12:5-10 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. :6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. :7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, :8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. :9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 2nd Seal: Rev 6:3 and when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. :4 and there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 4969. ófáìîù sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--kill, slay, wound. 1515. åé?rçìíç eirene i-ray'-nay probably from a primary verb eiro (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication, prosperity:--one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again. 3162. ìáì÷áérá machaira makh'-ahee-rah probably feminine of a presumed derivative of 3163; a knife, i.e. dirk; figuratively, war, judicial punishment:--sword. (Reference these verses to Chapter 12: 11-17, which represents the devils' wrath. This is when martyrdom started to happen. Martyrs are always butchered or slaughtered, red being the color of blood. The rider on this horse also has the same kind of sword that Jesus said to have brought and the same peace that He did not come to send. Rev 12:11-17 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he hath but a short time. :13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. :14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. :15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. :16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. :17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. The sword could be thought of in a judicial sense. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 2919. êréìíù krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. Notice: Rev 12:6 & Rev 12:14 are very similar. Compare Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. With Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. I see these two verses as the starting of same incident but in a different view. As soon as Jesus made a way for salvation, persecution started. 3rd Seal: Rev 6:5-6 and when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances (or yoke) in his hand. :6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, a measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 2218. æõãïÌí zugon dzoo-gon' from the root of zeugnumi. 1) a yoke a) a yoke that is put on draught cattle b) metaph., used of any burden or bondage 1) as that of slavery 2) of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept 2) a balance, pair of scales Note: This is a time when the Anti-christ is reveled but not the false prophet. This balance could also be a yoke in which God yokes us with Israel. The voice was heard in the midst of the four beasts, which is the Lamb. Reference this horse to Chapter 13:6-10, as read below, which represents persecution both economically, and Spiritually of Israel and the Church. This horse is bringing economic persecution as governments are in charge of the economy. 4th Seal: Rev 6:7-8 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. :8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 615. á?ðïêôåé?íù apokteino ap-ok-ti'-no from 575 and kteino 1) to kill in any way whatever a) to destroy, to allow to perish 2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish a) to inflict mortal death b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell 4501. ñ?ïìöáéìá? rhomphaia hrom-fah'-yah probably of foreign origin; a sabre, i.e. a long and broad cutlass (any weapon of the kind, literally or figuratively):--sword. Note: The rider here is the only one who is named of the four horsemen also the only one with a follower which is also named. Since there are two characters in this passage, they could be compared to the Anti-Christ and the false prophet. The world has always tried to extinguish or abolish and even destroy the Jews and it also hates the true church of Christ since it hated Him first of all. Reference these verses to Chapter 13:7-18

Sinner-Saint -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/12/2008 9:21:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic Chapter 6 The Four Horsemen of “The Revelations of Jesus Christ” 1st Seal: (Ref. Zec 6:1-8) Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, come and see. :2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Note: The word for white is the same word to explain Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Matt. 17:2 The bow in his hand is like a ribbon in the form of a bow, like one would receive as a prize (blue ribbon or bow is for first place). This would make sense because He has a crown which is also a prize. This horse refers to Jesus in chapter 12: 5-10 which describes Jesus winning the battle and conquered Satan. So Jesus opens up the first Seal brings forth Jesus... and you don't see any problem with this picture? What about the living creature which calls the first horseman out? Is the bow like a ribbon? Where do you read that into the text? Yes he has a crown, but both Jesus (Rev 5:6) and the wicked are adorned with horns. Horns are just a symbol of power. Could not a crown be just indicative that this Spirit is a conqueror? (And yes, I said "spirit.") If you want to say who, or what the four horsemen are, how can you render a proper interpretation and not reference Zechariah's vision? You list it as a reference, but no information from that vision is incorporated in the interpretation. ZEC 6:4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?" ZEC 6:5 The angel answered me, "These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south." Why is the direction of the white horse important? (I can answer this one...) Why does the white horseman have a bow -which is the means to project power- but no arrows? (I can answer that one too...)

Diolectic -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/12/2008 11:38:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint So Jesus opens up the first Seal brings forth Jesus... and you don't see any problem with this picture? First of all, thanx for reading my post & responding. Jesus revealing Himself, or openining a book for Himself, which He is to reveal Himself to John. There shouldn't be any problem with that. quote: What about the living creature which calls the first horseman out? The living creature does not call the first horseman out, but calls Johns attention to it. The creater says, " Come and see". quote: Is the bow like a ribbon? Where do you read that into the text? I got it from Strongs concodance, "apparently as the simplest fabric" I figured it meant as we have "Blue Ribbons" like bows on a gift, this might mean the same. A "blue ribbon" I know, that is a far stretch, But I thought I'd give it as a sugjestion. Or it also could mean that the Man on the white horse just coming back from battle who has used all his arrows. This idea still goes along with Jesus as He has won the battle in Rev 12:5-10 which represeants His victory on the cross. Compare Rev. 12:9 & John 12:3 quote: Yes he has a crown, but both Jesus (Rev 5:6) and the wicked are adorned with horns. Horns are just a symbol of power. Could not a crown be just indicative that this Spirit is a conqueror? (And yes, I said "spirit.") If you want to say who, or what the four horsemen are, how can you render a proper interpretation and not reference Zechariah's vision? You list it as a reference, but no information from that vision is incorporated in the interpretation. ZEC 6:4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?" ZEC 6:5 The angel answered me, "These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south." Zechariah's vision of the chariots are not the same as th fore horses here. quote: Why is the direction of the white horse important? (I can answer this one...) Why does the white horseman have a bow -which is the means to project power- but no arrows? (I can answer that one too...) Again, I woukd think if one has a bow & no arrows, that he has used them all. What would you think?

Sinner-Saint -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/12/2008 3:44:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic Jesus revealing Himself, or openining a book for Himself, which He is to reveal Himself to John. While Revelation is all about Jesus in that He is a main character in the end-times revealing His second Advent; Revelation reveals prophecy, puts it into context, and often explains the symbols which are used so that we can understand. The dichotomy with the one of the conventional views that the white Horseman is Jesus, reminiscent of Jesus going out to battle at Armageddon, is that you have Jesus calling out Jesus. Now the other conventional view is just as ludicrious in that the opposite side says the white Horseman is the anti-Christ because he goes out to conquer. Now you have Jesus summoning up the one who would be His nemesis if he could but get the chance... Both views have problems, but the overriding thing I see in your position is by putting Jesus first, you're seeing Him everywhere and the point of Revelation is not to reveal Jesus, but to reveal what will happen. quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic The creater says, " Come and see". The best the textual critics can say is that "and see" does not belong to the original text. Furthermore, the King James Bible is extremely weak on the book of Revelation because they did not have any Greek manuscripts to go on to render their translation, but instead took their Latin, translated it back into Greek and then into English. When you do that, you can introduce all kinds of errors. The verb erchoy is in the 2nd person, singular, present tense, imperative mood, and middle voice. While the imperative command and present tense translate well, the middle voice does not. The Greek middle voice shows the subject acting in his own interest or on his own behalf, or participating in the results of the verbal action. This is more than a simple command to John. It is a command to the horseman. John is already witness, he is there. The horseman is not until he is called to "Come!" This command has in it an implication of some action on his own behalf; to conquer and to go out conquering! ______________________________________________________________ In the second part of your post, I find the aspect of a ribbon totally unsupported. Still worse, the idea of yours that the account of the woman Israel in Rev 12:1-6 blends right into the account of the Serpent in Rev 12:7-17 is one I totally reject. You cannot read the book of Revelation linearily from front to back. There are parallel accounts within Revelation. Because of the repeated event within chapter 12 where the woman Israel is given shelter for half of the one 'seven' ought to clue you in that there are two accounts within that one chapter. Too bad John didn't assign chapters when he wrote it. If he had, we might have a better clue as to when he started a new vision... As it is, I'm not going to rely on your reading for what is happening in Rev 12:5-10. While Jesus has beaten death and has risen from the grave so that we might have hope, I don't think those five verses you cite concern what He did for us on the cross. quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic Zechariah's vision of the chariots are not the same as th fore horses here. I vehemently disagree. The horsemen have work to do ON THE EARTH. Zechariah sees them while on the earth coming out of the Heavenly realm (between the bronze mountains). What Revelation does for us is have Jesus reveal from the Father to John and so to us the inception and the purpose of the four chariots of horses which in a manner of speaking in picture form shows how these spirits have grown in power. I will say that the four horsemen are definitely related to the four chariots and a pale horse as John terms it is suggestive rather than strictly descriptive (since green is not a horse color). quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic Again, I woukd think if one has a bow & no arrows, that he has used them all. What would you think? I would think he has the ability to project his power from afar and that he can conquer the world without firing a shot. I think this first horseman parallels what Jesus terms many anti-Christs because this spirit brings forth a system of man's which literally takes over the world in such a way as to not only make war possible, but to actually make central command over whole nations possible in a way which totalitarian governments have sought but could not do. I think this horseman, which began in the west (as viewed from Israel) has already taken over this world and way too many people see their salvation in his terms. ...and you and I are part of it because we live in this country which has been at the forefront to bring this about. The living creature who calls this spirit out is like a lion. The characteristic of kingliness it possesses imbues the first horseman as well as a conqueror. And from a nation depicted as a winged lion came a revolutionary idea. Capitalism is a man-derived system which brough at the Industrial Revolution and this spirit helped to unleash it. And it is by our own hand with the power this spirit has imbued people with that we have come to our present state of affairs which is so radically different than it was just 200 years ago.

Diolectic -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/13/2008 1:28:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic Jesus revealing Himself, or openining a book for Himself, which He is to reveal Himself to John. While Revelation is all about Jesus in that He is a main character in the end-times revealing His second Advent; Revelation reveals prophecy, puts it into context, and often explains the symbols which are used so that we can understand. The dichotomy with the one of the conventional views that the white Horseman is Jesus, reminiscent of Jesus going out to battle at Armageddon, is that you have Jesus calling out Jesus. Now the other conventional view is just as ludicrious in that the opposite side says the white Horseman is the anti-Christ because he goes out to conquer. Now you have Jesus summoning up the one who would be His nemesis if he could but get the chance... Both views have problems, but the overriding thing I see in your position is by putting Jesus first, you're seeing Him everywhere and the point of Revelation is not to reveal Jesus, but to reveal what will happen. Your good :) However, It isn't Jesus who is doing the summoning, but the creatueres. Furthermore, it isn't all of the futer that is being revealed, but also how it gets to that point. As Chapt 12 starts at the "birth" of Israel(The Woman) & even of when the 1/3 of angels did fall. I also see the time of Jesus crucifiction in Chapt. 12. I've always been curious about the oddness of Chapt. 12 & thought about the anigma of the horses. I've known that the bible interprets its self, so I figured that Chapt. 12 & 13 is an interpretation of the horses. Jesus is seen on a white horse in Chapt 19 also. The first seal could be the time before that one. Chapt 19 is further revelation of that mysterious rider in Chapt 6 first seal. I know all this is only speculation, so am I’m not to aargue that I'm right & your wrong, you have grwat pionts that I will akso concider. I'm sorta on the fence of who the rider of the whit horse is, however, if it ain't Jesus, I will need to re-think my view of Chapter 12 & 13 being an interp of the four Horsemen. quote: In the second part of your post, I find the aspect of a ribbon totally unsupported. Still worse, the idea of yours that the account of the woman Israel in Rev 12:1-6 blends right into the account of the Serpent in Rev 12:7-17 is one I totally reject. You cannot read the book of Revelation linearily from front to back. There are parallel accounts within Revelation. Because of the repeated event within chapter 12 where the woman Israel is given shelter for half of the one 'seven' ought to clue you in that there are two accounts within that one chapter. Too bad John didn't assign chapters when he wrote it. If he had, we might have a better clue as to when he started a new vision... As it is, I'm not going to rely on your reading for what is happening in Rev 12:5-10. While Jesus has beaten death and has risen from the grave so that we might have hope, I don't think those five verses you cite concern what He did for us on the cross. Will you discuss Chapt 12 with me & anyone else who joins in the thread I will start? I like the way you study Reveations. quote: quote: Zechariah's vision of the chariots are not the same as th fore horses here. I vehemently disagree. I'll get back to you on this.

ChristopherJ -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/16/2008 12:18:58 AM)
Greetings all, This is my first post in the end times forum. I am currently in chapter two of Revelation in a chapter by chapter and verse by verse teaching that I am doing on this book of the Bible - one of my favourites. You can listen to the audio sermons or read the notes from the first two chapters here - I'd appreciate your feedback! Audio sermons: http://www.beausejourchurch.ca/joomla/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,37/ Daily teachings: http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/ Anyway, I just wanted to throw into the discussion my thoughts on the first of the horsemen... Revelation 6:2 - "And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer." Revelation 19:11 - "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war." THe parallels are too close and obvious to ignore... Jesus is the rider on the white horse - in my humble opinion! And this also fits into the overall theme of Revelation - being "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" - not the devil, beast or antichrist... Looking forward to discussing these things with you all!

ChristopherJ -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/16/2008 12:50:53 AM)
As a follow up to my previous post, here's a quote from Matthew Henry's commentary on Jesus as the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6: quote: We have the vision itself, v. 2. (1.) The Lord Jesus appears riding on a white horse. White horses are generally refused in war, because they make the rider a mark for the enemy; but our Lord Redeemer was sure of the victory and a glorious triumph, and he rides on the white horse of a pure but despised gospel, with great swiftness through the world. (2.) He had a bow in his hand. The convictions impressed by the word of God are sharp arrows, they reach at a distance; and, though the ministers of the word draw the bow at a venture, God can and will direct it to the joints of the harness. This bow, in the hand of Christ, abides in strength, and, like that of Jonathan, never returns empty. (3.) A crown was given him, importing that all who receive the gospel must receive Christ as a king, and must be his loyal and obedient subjects; he will be glorified in the success of the gospel. When Christ was going to war, one would think a helmet had been more proper than a crown; but a crown is given him as the earnest and emblem of victory. (4.) He went forth conquering, and to conquer. As long as the church continues militant Christ will be conquering; when he has conquered his enemies in one age he meets with new ones in another age; men go on opposing, and Christ goes on conquering, and his former victories are pledges of future victories. He conquers his enemies in his people; their sins are their enemies and his enemies; when Christ comes with power into their soul he begins to conquer these enemies, and he goes on conquering, in the progressive work of sanctification, till he has gained us a complete victory. And he conquers his enemies in the world, wicked men, some by bringing them to his foot, others by making them his footstool.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/16/2008 10:22:36 AM)
If Christ is the first Horseman, why has He not conquered the whole world? Capitalism has. And it did without firing a shot.

Isaiah29 -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/16/2008 3:36:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ Greetings all, This is my first post in the end times forum. I am currently in chapter two of Revelation in a chapter by chapter and verse by verse teaching that I am doing on this book of the Bible - one of my favourites. You can listen to the audio sermons or read the notes from the first two chapters here - I'd appreciate your feedback! Audio sermons: http://www.beausejourchurch.ca/joomla/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,37/ Daily teachings: http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/ Anyway, I just wanted to throw into the discussion my thoughts on the first of the horsemen... Revelation 6:2 - "And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer." Revelation 19:11 - "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war." THe parallels are too close and obvious to ignore... Jesus is the rider on the white horse - in my humble opinion! And this also fits into the overall theme of Revelation - being "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" - not the devil, beast or antichrist... Looking forward to discussing these things with you all! Greetings Chris, Simply because Jesus is the true author of "the Revelation of Jesus Christ", and He appears in Rev. 19 riding a white horse does not make Him the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6. In fact, there are profound differences between the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6: 2 with the rider on the white horse in Rev. 19: 11-13, which John identifies as "The Word of God", aka Jesus Christ. We will examine those differences in due course. Nevertheless, if you would consider the overall theme of the Revelation, it is more related to the rise of the enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ, (see: the Red Dragon, the Beast from the Sea, the Beast from the Abyss, the Destroyer (Abbadon), the False Prophet, and the Woman dressed in scarlet sitting on seven hills, aka the Whore of Babylon), and God's subsequent judgement upon them, (see the seven trumpets and the seven bowls of wrath), which leads to the complete restoration of creation, ie. a new heaven and a new earth. (see Rev. 21) Please also remember that it is Jesus Himself who is opening the seals, for He alone was deemed worthy to do so, and it is only after He opens each seal that the horses and riders come forth. These establish a progression of events which culminate with the last "chloros" (green) colored horse whose rider is described as "thanatos" (death) with "hades" (hell) following after him. Now regarding the differences between the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 and the one in Rev. 19: 11-13. Although it is true that they both are riding white horses, that is about as far as the similarities go. Consider for instance the crowns that they wear. The rider on the first horse is "given" a "stephanos". These tended to be laurel wreaths "given" to victorious athletes and gladiators as well as generals returning from successful military campaigns. In fact, Julius Caesar, having vanquished Gnaeus Pompey, was voted the right to wear such a "crown" by the Roman Senate in 45 BC. The following year he refused the offer to wear the royal "diadema" that was given by Marc Antony, preferring the more humble "stephanos", which he wore at all times, though some suspect due to his baldness of which he was embarrassed. From that time on Roman coins and artwork would picture Caesar wearing the "stephanos" or laurel wreath as a crown. For a picture of Caesar weaing the "stephanos" see: http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/caesar.html. One should note that the 24 elders and the four living creatures also have "stephanos" as opposed to "diademata" which they cast before the throne of God, and in a final ironic twist, the "crown" of thorns fashioned for Jesus by the Roman guards was a "stephanos", for which they mockingly hailed Jesus as "King of the Jews". The supreme irony being that Jesus was not only "King of the Jews", but their king as well, for He is the "King of King and Lord of Lords". On the other hand, the "diademata" from which we get "diadem" was strictly reserved for royalty, especially one born into royalty. Both the Persians and later the Greeks used "diademata" or "diadems" to denote ancestral royalty. It is actually to the Roman's credit that up until the 4th Century only the "stephanos" was used, thus signifying their rulers were born of the people and installed by the Senate, not by some divine birthright, though some of Rome's emperors certainly disabused themselves of such humble beginnings and eventually claimed for themselves divine birthrights. It is of particular interest that the horns of the beast which rises out of the sea in Rev. 13 wear the "diademata," for the horns are identified as "kings" according to Daniel, see Dan. 7:24. Hence the kings wear crowns reserved for kings. However, when the Word of God appears in Rev. 19, on His head He wears many "diademata", for He is "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords" Rev. 19: 16. These crowns were not "given' to Him, for they are His by divine birthright, being the "only begotten Son of God". So while the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6: 2 is "given" a "stephanos", the rider on the white horse in Rev. 19 wears "many diademata". Another striking difference between the two riders is the weapon they carry. The rider in Rev. 6: 2 carries a bow, whereas the rider in Rev. 19 has a sharp sword which goes out of His mouth (Rev. 19: 15). One should recall that Paul defines the Word of God as the "sword of the Spirit" (Eph. 6: 17), and the author of Hebrews describes the Word of God as "sharper than any two-edged sword". (Heb. 4: 12) Clearly Jesus is armed with the Word of God which proceeds forth out of His mouth, for He is the Word of God incarnate, while the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6: 2 is described as only carrying a bow. Over the course of the past two millenia many commentators and students of Scripture have pointed out that the rider is not carrying any arrows. However, simply because John does not mention the arrows, does not mean he does not have any. There are multiple instances in the Bible where people are described carrying bows, yet the arrows are not mentioned. In these instances it is merely assumed that if one is carrying a bow, one is also carrying arrows as well. The fact that he carries a bow simply means he is an archer, there is no need to mention arrows. The following are but a few of the many examples of which I speak. "And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour." 2Chr. 14: 8 "And of Benjamin; Eliada a mighty man of valour, and with him armed men with bow* and shield two hundred thousand." 2Chr. 17: 17 "They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion." Jer. 6: 23 "Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow." Jer. 46. 9 "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen." Hosea 1: 7 "The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle." Ps. 78: 9 I think the point John was making is that the rider on the white horse is an archer, as Ishmael was recorded as being in Genesis. "And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer*." Gen 21:20 The fact that Mohammed was also an archer and traced his ancestry back to Ishmael should give one great pause to wonder. You might ask: How do we know that Mohammed was an archer? The answer is quite simple: we have his bow to this day. Below you will find a link to a photograph of the bow he used. It is made of bamboo. http://news.webshots.com/photo/1029585048034079446yCSvjvWdNG The question I must ask is this: How many other world leaders rode a white horse, carried a bow and went forth conquering and to conquer? When Mohammed conquered Mecca in 630 AD, he deferred being elevated to kingship, but rather preferred the title of prophet or messenger from God (which incidentally carried greater weight with the people). It is one thing to kill a king, it is another thing altogether to kill a messenger from God. Hence he was given the "stephanos" of a conqueror rather than the "diademata" of a king. In Christ, Ariel

TheDayDrawsNigh -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/24/2008 8:08:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Diolectic The creater says, " Come and see". The best the textual critics can say is that "and see" does not belong to the original text. ~END QUOTE~ You would do yourself a great sevice to pick up a Hendrickson Interlinear Bible. I have NO idea where you got the idea of the King James being translated out of the Latin as with the Roman Catholic 'Volgate' version. I've studied the Reformation period when King James put the best translators together with the earliest transcripts he could get ahold of and nowhere did I read that he used a Latin translation. This is a pure falshood! When you look at the original languages in the Interlinear you can see CLEARLY 'Come and see' FOUR times, once before each horse is introduced. In fact the Greek word for 'see' is # 991 in the Strongs concordance and IS there. It really seams that some people will go to ANY lengths to make a point, but not go as far as to see whether what they are preaching is really true to the Bible! And what IS the point anyways if it DIDN'T say 'see'? (Even though it IS there!) I noticed this same person said quote: "If Christ is the first Horseman, why has He not conquered the whole world? Capitalism has. And it did without firing a shot". ~ END QUOTE~ I see this person has a political agenda and doesn't seem to stay focused on the Bible very long. This person obviously doesn't like the country God made and designed, the USA and is VERY misguided. Are you saying EVERY country in the world has a capitalistic system? You might as well go take your business to Cuba or some other place that hates capitalism too! Capatalism =Freedom!!! (Thank God for it!!!) But actually we know from many verses such as John 17:9 where Jesus prays ".....I pray NOT for the world but for THEM that which thou hast GIVEN me......." that God NEVER had ANY intention of conquering the whole world as you infer this chapter says which it NEVER does, just that this rider on this white horse went forth conquering and to conquer just as the word of God IS. Why then would only a 'remnant' of all mankind become saved. Matthew 20:14 "For many are called, but few chosen" The fact is that God is NOT concerned about worldy politics and systems like you would have people believe as Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" I also noticed someone says "What, is Jesus introducing Jesus? What's with that"? ~end quote~ Well what do you think the word of God IS??? The word of God IS Jesus and IS introduced to us BY Jesus!!!! (John 1:1,14) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course the rider of the white horse IS Jesus who goes on to conquer (save those he's chosen) and the red horse a picture of Satan counterfitting Christ as Satan comes as an 'Angel of Light' (2 Cor 11:14) and the black horse is a picture of what happens after the rider on the red horse (Satan) who 'seems' to be victorious as violence gets worse and worse on earth is able to 'steal' the true gospel (Mark 4:15) blinding the unsaved. This is also spoken of by God as the 'Famine' he will send in the end times upon the earth in Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord" (THIS is the rider of the black horse) Notice in verse 6 of Revelation 6 it speaks about a measure of wheat for a penny and so on? But NOT to hurt the oil and wine? The oil and wine represent the TRUE salvation of the Gospel and puts a price on the Bible as wheat and barley as Jesus WAS the 'Bread of Life'. This is the same theme givin in Rev 13:17 where no man could 'Buy or Sell' unless he was not truly saved and blinded into a false gospel or denial of the truth. That is, a true believer will not be very popular in this day when God sends this 'famine' into the world along with the 'Strong Delusion' as he speaks of in 2 Thes 2:11 as Satan attains his wish from Isaiah 14:12-13 to be worshipped as God in the congregation and spoken of in 2 Thes 2:4. The true believers will NOT fall into this delusion and false understanding of Gods word as they are 'sealed' (Rev 7:3) and are protected by God from the delusion and spiritual famine. The final horse, the 'pale' horse with Death as its rider with Hell following represents the lake of fire and/or the second death. The very end of judgement when the last enemy Jesus will conquer is completed as we see in Rev 20:14. (2 Cor 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death") The gospel is spiritual food for those that are spiritual.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (8/24/2008 10:32:18 PM)
Hmmm... 'Capitalism = Freedom?' ...and 'Thank God for' a system which buys and sells the souls of men? Why is it that people flock to anti-Christs? It's because they think evil is good. The King James translators did NOT have a Greek source for the book of Revelation. That is a fact. They took the Latin, translated it back into Greek and then into Shakespearean English with a couple of mistakes along the way.

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