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Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 11:02:01 AM
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Liveloved
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Yesterday a group of women I meet with were discussing Jesus' commands in John 15 to love one another. We were looking at verses 12-17 and they begin and end with that command.
So the question 'what love does' was being discussed. And the topic of Noah came up. In Genesis 9, Noah drank wine, became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent. Ham sees his father and goes out and tells his brothers. The other brothers take a garment, walk backwards into the tent so they will not see their father's nakedness, and cover him.
Talk with me about how we live this out with our friends and family. What has the Lord taught you in this regard? I'm listening. 
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 11:17:22 AM
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mvic
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Talk with me about how we live this out with our friends and family:
Don't drink wine in the nude!
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MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 12:55:18 PM
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Walker311
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quote:
The other brothers take a garment
Don't be such a tattletale. Cover old pop up and let him sleep it off.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 1:02:26 PM
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stampinlady
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Don't talk about another sister or brother's sin in such a way to embarrass them on purpose or flaunt their imperfection.
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Deb
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 3:07:54 PM
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URForgiven
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Sounds like Peter made the same connection you and the ladies did...
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Some sins are obvious, they are laid bare for all to see, and that is never more true than within our families. But if we love...we do not exploit their sin...we cover it with the love of God that flows through us to them. Helping them to bury their sin.
Our fruit may indeed tell who we are inside, but many times it is only through observation over time that we truly see a persons fruit. And perhaps we will not truly see it until long after that person has passed, in hindsight, looking back over their life and seeing how God had used or not used them.
Love does not exploit another's sin, but instead seeks to help them cover their sin with the garment of truth...respecting the other as a flawed fellow sojourner on this earth...
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 5:25:41 PM
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Liveloved
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Yes, the reference is Genesis 9:20-29. I do not see anything re: rape. Is that extrabiblical information? To be truthful, thinking about that makes me feel sick. And I guess that is how I need to think/feel about MY sin!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 5:29:39 PM
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mvic
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Hi CRH,
Ref: "he raped his father in that state".
My Bible doesn't say this; (Good News Bible, American Bible Society).
Could you give reference to your Bible please? Thanx.
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 5:49:46 PM
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stampinlady
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I've read what Crh is speaking about, but still don't see it. Matt. Henry says that Ham could have been gloating about his father's drunkeness and that is disrespectful. Had Noah ever drank before? Scripture doesn't mention it. We'd have to do a word study to see what if something is missing in translation/transliteration me thinks.
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Deb
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 6:14:50 PM
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Giulia
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Look, if you're going to take scripture from the OT and insist it correlates to something today what would you do with Lot's daughters sleeping with their father to make babies? What would you do with the law which states to cut a woman's hand off if she squashes a man's groin because she is protecting her husband? Both are in the OT and so are many other stories. Whilst I understand the OT is a shadow of the new. Some things are best left in the shadow.
For this one. Ham saw the shame of his father in his nakedness and it was wrong for him to stand and watch because that also made him a partaker of the shame. He also failed to protect his father's honour and that is why Noah was most upset with him.
I suppose we could draw parallels even from watching the ants or going to the zoo.
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Captured by His love. Justified by His grace.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 6:32:07 PM
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deliveredarling
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Wow, Guilia, I think you missed the point entirely. We are talking about covering sin. That totally applies to today. Look at our churches and what we do to the people in them. We destroy the sinners!. They are pronounced from every corner-strung up and hung out to dry. No mercy, no grace!
Now back to the topic, I looked at the above reference and found nothing to indicate that Noah was raped. I have heard that before but under what context, I can't remember. I looked at MH commentary on it and nothing was referenced there. He did enlighten me on a few things though!
Canaan was cursed because he flaunted Noah's sin. He should have had more respect for his father's "sinless" life prior to this instance. Basically, he was rubbing it in Noah's face. Nothing in scripture indicates that Noah had ever done this prior too or afterward. MH seems to conclude that Noah being naked was part of his shame-that he willingly and knowingly became naked as a way to express his shame. The other brothers were blessed because they walked backwards into him and did not see his nakedness to further humiliate him.
His shame was because he awoke to find himself waking from a drunken state. Drunkeness caused his shame and guilt. Canaan wanted to exploit it, the other brothers wanted to let it be.
The lesson I'm seeing in this: when a person sins, why humiliate them. it doesn't need to be yelled out at the top of our lungs or run to every person we know and tell them. MH makes sure to state that "everyone must take heed lest they fall."
We don't have to do anything about another's sin, we let God handle it. It is obvious by Noah's nakedness that God was already dealing with his sin.
Noah's boys did a loving thing by covering his nakedness. They didn't try to fix the sin or even hide it. They lovingly covered his shame and let God be God.
That's what I got out of it anyways. Cool, I enjoyed this! Thanks LL!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 7:07:29 PM
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Liveloved
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Thanks, DD, for your insights! Yes, I thought this was too important to not spend some time brooding over. So thanks for joining me! Does that make this a brooder house? ha
I have so appreciated thinking about covering sin and what that means to me and for my life. What Noah's sons did is certainly a picture of what Christ has done for us. Covering is love, the ultimate love that says, "I see, I know, and I will help you because you can't help yourself." And, yes, that is what we are to do for our sisters and brothers.
Love them and draw close and help them. It might be confrontation. It might be prayer. It might be standing with them when God reveals their sin to them. But it is coming along side, recognizing that that could be me, that love helps at a time like this---doesn't mock, doesn't humiliate, doesn't broadcast the sin to others.
Yes, there is a great need for us to seek to understand what this means and how to live it out among our family. It is certainly God's desire for us.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 7:57:03 PM
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19ramman85
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THis is from Matthew Henry Consice;
III. Ham's impudence and impiety: He saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren, v. 22. To see it accidentally and involuntarily would not have been a crime; but, 1. He pleased himself with the sight, as the Edomites looked up on the day of their brother (Obad. 12), pleased, and insulting. Perhaps Ham had sometimes been himself drunk, and reproved for it by his good father, whom he was therefore pleased to see thus overcome. Note, It is common for those who walk in false ways themselves to rejoice at the false steps which they sometimes see others make. But charity rejoices not in iniquity, nor can true penitents that are sorry for their own sins rejoice in the sins of others. 2. He told his two brethren without (in the street, as the word is), in a scornful deriding manner, that his father might seem vile unto them. It is very wrong, (1.) To make a jest of sin (Prov. xiv. 9), and to be puffed up with that for which we should rather mourn, 1 Cor. v. 2. And, (2.) To publish the faults of any, especially of parents, whom it is our duty to honour. Noah was not only a good man, but had been a good father to him; and this was a most base disingenuous requital to him for his tenderness. Ham is here called the father of Canaan, which intimates that he who was himself a father should have been more respectful to him that was his father. ............ so Where, exactly does old Matthew say Noah was raped?
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc1.Gen.x.html
-charles
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 8:13:02 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
so Where, exactly does old Matthew say Noah was raped?
No one said he said it. There are some translations that imply something sexual had happened. I'll search the web and look for a link.
Here's on from Answer's in Genesis
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/oneBlood/chapter6.asp
< Message edited by stampinlady -- 7/18/2008 8:36:24 PM >
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Deb
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 8:56:44 PM
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crh737
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Hi CRH,
Ref: "he raped his father in that state".
My Bible doesn't say this; (Good News Bible, American Bible Society).
Could you give reference to your Bible please? Thanx.
Hi MVIC~
Ok see below:
NIV= 9:24: When Noah awaoke from his wine and *found out* what his youngest son had done to him, he said....
NASB=9:24: When Noah awoke from his wine, he *knew* what his youngest son had done to him.
KJV 9:24: And Noah awoke from his wine, and *knew* what his younger son had done unto him.
TLB 9:24: When Noah awoke from his drunken stupor, and *learned* what had happened and what Ham, his younger son had done, he cursed Ham's descendants.
26 a curse upon the Canaanites, he swore.
Read betweens the lines Mvic and you will get the pic
Blessings
CRH
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/18/2008 9:08:34 PM
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crh737
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
His shame was because he awoke to find himself waking from a drunken state. Drunkeness caused his shame and guilt. Canaan wanted to exploit it, the other brothers wanted to let it be.
The lesson I'm seeing in this: when a person sins, why humiliate them.
Noah's boys did a loving thing by covering his nakedness. They didn't try to fix the sin or even hide it. They lovingly covered his shame and let God be God.
That's what I got out of it anyways. Cool, I enjoyed this! Thanks LL!
You are correct DD his drunkenness is what caused his shame and God explicitly explains this about people who like to indulge. Drinking in itself is not a sin, but when it causes drunkenness, is when sin occurs and this is one of the prime examples.
Plus the incident with Lot and his daughters. He allowed his daughters to use him to imbide and the result is the 2 thorns for Israel today. Frankly known as Iran and Iraq.
Just like Sarai (Sarah's Abraham's wife, who had unbelief) who was impatient, tried to jump ahead of God and offered her handservant Haggai to Abraham, creating another nation with that son, but not the seed of God.
Sorry got on a rambling session
CRH
Ok my typing really stinks today
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 4:21:16 AM
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mvic
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Hi CRH,
Found out + knew+ learned = rape ?????
I think it is wrong for us to "read between the lines" and interpret the Bible to suit our own needs.
Presumably you would take Ham to Court and prosecute him on that evidence "between the lines".
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 5:09:21 AM
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Giulia
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From: Giulia
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quote:
Wow, Guilia, I think you missed the point entirely. We are talking about covering sin. That totally applies to today. Look at our churches and what we do to the people in them. We destroy the sinners!. They are pronounced from every corner-strung up and hung out to dry. No mercy, no grace!
You think so? Then why not say it straight out instead of trying to act super spiritual with OT scripture?
_____________________________
Captured by His love. Justified by His grace.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 5:39:12 AM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
...... There is a song with the lyrics, "It's Your kindness that leads us to repentance O Lord" and this song comes to mind. Perhaps kindness shown to a brother / sister helps to play a part in the repentance process as well. 
I didn't realise that there is a text which promotes this theme likewise:
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 7:03:23 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
quote:
Wow, Guilia, I think you missed the point entirely. We are talking about covering sin. That totally applies to today. Look at our churches and what we do to the people in them. We destroy the sinners!. They are pronounced from every corner-strung up and hung out to dry. No mercy, no grace.
I wasn't trying to be ugly or super spiritual by saying this. I'm sorry if I offended you. I thought, that I was clarifying the gist of my previous post. I wasn't sure who you were referring your comment to, so I responded with what I thought the prevailing thoughts were. The wow part was, me trying to see what you saw in it and I was just taken aback by it. That's why I said what I said in the bold.
quote:
Then why not say it straight out instead of trying to act super spiritual with OT scripture?
I thought I did. I'm not real familiar with the OT teachings. I sure wanted to know if Noah was raped, so I started searching it out. Nothing super spiritual about it. My response was based on the Matthew Henry commentary. I just thought it might help others too.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 7/19/2008 7:10:16 AM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 8:03:07 AM
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crh737
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Hi CRH,
Found out + knew+ learned = rape ?????
I think it is wrong for us to "read between the lines" and interpret the Bible to suit our own needs.
Presumably you would take Ham to Court and prosecute him on that evidence "between the lines".
MVIC~
It was a pastor who clarified what Ham did to his father, not just reading between the lines. Many time the word knew or know in the bible references intimacy. As when they refer to Jospeh and Mary. He *knew* her not and she was with child.
CRH
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