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Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 1:02:20 AM
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SILVERNAME
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Give them that old-time religion — ancient religion — and then watch an exploding population of modern pagans give it contemporary twists.
Their numbers roughly double about every 18 months in the United States, Canada and Europe, according to the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance.
Neopaganism, whether a careful reconstruction of ancient practice or a completely modern interpretation of ancient lore, is now among the country's fastest-growing religions.
People, especially teens, are rejecting what they see as the "autocracy, paternalism, sexism, homophobia and insensitivity to the environment" of some more traditional religions, the Canadian group concludes.
Denverite Jesse Walter describes himself
Pagans in Belarus carry a wheel as they celebrate the solstice. (AP | Sergei Grits)as a recovering Irish Catholic, conservative Republican and Army reservist. He is also a druid who follows one of the most difficult traditions of his religion — taking his livelihood for at least a year and a day from a grove of trees.
Walter, 33, who became a druid at age 18, first took a literal approach and bought land near the Wyoming state line where he could hunt. Then he and his wife, Kantis, who calls herself a generic pagan, were inspired to open a community center/coffee shop, Witches Brew, across the street from Berkeley Lake Park in north Denver
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http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_9695062?source=commented-news
This is very very disturbing. proof that the secularization of society leads to a rise in immoral false religions.
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 8:19:48 AM
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mapachito13
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These are people who feel they don't fit in or don't want to embrace any sort of "traditional" belief systems and are looking for an outlet for their rebelliousness. This is the hippie movement all over again!
Christ warned us of this happening but it always leaves me scratching my head asking why? Christ left us a lot of material proof of His life, death and resurrection so that we might have a reasonable faith in Him. Some people spend more time practicing ancient superstition than learning about and worshipping the REAL!
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 8:57:34 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
These are people who feel they don't fit in or don't want to embrace any sort of "traditional" belief systems and are looking for an outlet for their rebelliousness. This is the hippie movement all over again!
Disagree. (Obviously)
I know of very few pagans who are so out of rebelliosness. Those tend to become satanists or atheists instead.
Most modern pagans are not so out of spite for Christianity, but because they found genuine value in the old beliefs. Most, if not all, have had religious experiences just like Born Again Christians probalby have had.
WormHeart
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 9:23:40 AM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
This is very very disturbing. proof that the secularization of society leads to a rise in immoral false religions.
OK... well, I'm not going to dive into this part:
quote:
Great news!
WormHeart
but I think it's worth pointing out that the group we're talking about "growing quickly" is a very small group - which is why it can grow quickly. It's a lot easier to double in size when there's only a few hundred thousand of you. I see no reason why this news should be particularly "disturbing" to us. Nor do I see what it has to do with secularization - if anything, turning to spirituality is a reaction against excessive secularization. People are searching for truth beyond the mere physical. I would find that encouraging.
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 9:28:05 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
but I think it's worth pointing out that the group we're talking about "growing quickly" is a very small group - which is why it can grow quickly. It's a lot easier to double in size when there's only a few hundred thousand of you. I see no reason why this news should be particularly "disturbing" to us. Nor do I see what it has to do with secularization - if anything, turning to spirituality is a reaction against excessive secularization. People are searching for truth beyond the mere physical. I would find that encouraging.
Very true.
There are very, very few pagans around, so even a small increase in numbers becomes a great deal in percent. In Denmark we doubled in size for five years running every year, until our present size. Then it stabilized.
And I would be very doubtful that there is even a few hundred thousand pagans in the US.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:03:17 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
I'm a pagan myself. Asatruar. 
WormHeart
Wormheart, since you are one, I have a question.
Call me uneducated, and I didn't really pick it up in the article, but what exactly is a "pagan," by current standards? And what's the difference between a "pagan" and a "neopagan"? What does a pagan "do"???
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:18:53 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
I'm a pagan myself. Asatruar.
WormHeart
Wormheart, since you are one, I have a question.
Call me uneducated, and I didn't really pick it up in the article, but what exactly is a "pagan," by current standards? And what's the difference between a "pagan" and a "neopagan"? What does a pagan "do"???
Found this wiki link to explain it. But my question is that why would anyone embrace something born from ancient superstition? What reasonableness can you offer, Wormheart, for belief in these ancient "gods".
Asatruar
BTW, it seems there are some connections with neo-Nazi and white supremists by this movement and its alluding to a "master race".
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:22:49 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
I'm a pagan myself. Asatruar.
WormHeart
Wormheart, since you are one, I have a question.
Call me uneducated, and I didn't really pick it up in the article, but what exactly is a "pagan," by current standards? And what's the difference between a "pagan" and a "neopagan"? What does a pagan "do"???
Uneducated? Nonsense – if we never ask, we never learn.
Pagan is an umbrella term for a wide variety of faiths with some common ground. I’m mostly familiar with the European ones.
It will typically be the old religion in an area or among a people. Like the Druid-movement in Britan that the article refers to.
It is, at the most basic, modern day people taking up the faith of their ancestors as they best can.
Neo-pagan just signifies that it is *not* old-style paganism, but a modern faith.
Of course definitions tend to blur. You can hear “pagan” used as a slur against all non-Christians from time to time.
Being an asatruar I follow the old Nordic gods of my ancestors. Oding, Thor and so on.
What a pagan “do” is of course different from path to path, but most if not all honour the gods of their ancestors and have a closer relation to nature than the western major faiths today.
Not sure how much I am allowed to explain at this site, but that is be basics.
Note – US pagans have a unique difficulty, since the old religion of the area is Native American, and the old faith of the ancestors tend to be scrambled through all the mixing of people. Hence US pagans are often a little… strange by European standards.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:29:17 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
Note – US pagans have a unique difficulty, since the old religion of the area is Native American, and the old faith of the ancestors tend to be scrambled through all the mixing of people. Hence US pagans are often a little… strange by European standards.
WormHeart
Is this an issue with European pagans? What makes them strange - the "mixing of people"?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:34:00 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Found this wiki link to explain it. But my question is that why would anyone embrace something born from ancient superstition? What reasonableness can you offer, Wormheart, for belief in these ancient "gods".
Asatruar
Probably the same a believing Christian can.
Special revelation.
In short I had a religious experience at my very first blot (ritual) that turned my world upside down. It is not something I pretend or try to be “hip” with.
I know that the gods are real entities and that I have a relationship with them.
It gives me meaning and comfort knowing that I *am* accountable for my own life, and that the right way to live is one of honour and self-perseverance.
I realise of course that as a Christian you have no other option than to consider the gods superstitious or satanic, and I can accept that as your perspective.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
BTW, it seems there are some connections with neo-Nazi and white supremacist by this movement and its alluding to a "master race".
Unfortunately most neo-nazis tend to flash the Nordic symbols (runes and the like) and use the terminology to make them “true Danish” (for instance), although I’m pretty sure they are not religious per see.
If they had read any of the sources, they would realise that Nazism (totalirism, strong man rule) and asatru (independence, resistance to outside ruling) are not compatible.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:41:54 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
Note – US pagans have a unique difficulty, since the old religion of the area is Native American, and the old faith of the ancestors tend to be scrambled through all the mixing of people. Hence US pagans are often a little… strange by European standards.
WormHeart
Is this an issue with European pagans? What makes them strange - the "mixing of people"?
Well… it is probably mostly a cultural thing, but there are two types of “strange” US pagans.
One is mixing faiths from all over.
I am a strict Asatruar. I know there are gods beside the Nordic, but those are not mine.
A mixing pagan could incorporate Nordic, Slavic, Native American and other gods (sometimes even the Christian god) into a personal pantheon.
That is considered odd.
The other one is to be totally dogmatic about faith.
Some US Asatruars seem to have merely traded Christianity for Asatru in words, but have the same dogmatic approach to it. The Nine Noble Virtues is a US asatru concept that should highlight the virtues of Asatruar, but Danish asatruars consider it “rather weird.”
Don’t get me wrong. US Asatruars are my cousins in faith – I just find some of their practises rather peculiar.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:45:52 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Found this wiki link to explain it. But my question is that why would anyone embrace something born from ancient superstition? What reasonableness can you offer, Wormheart, for belief in these ancient "gods".
Asatruar
Probably the same a believing Christian can.
Special revelation.
In short I had a religious experience at my very first blot (ritual) that turned my world upside down. It is not something I pretend or try to be “hip” with.
I know that the gods are real entities and that I have a relationship with them.
It gives me meaning and comfort knowing that I *am* accountable for my own life, and that the right way to live is one of honour and self-perseverance.
I realise of course that as a Christian you have no other option than to consider the gods superstitious or satanic, and I can accept that as your perspective.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
BTW, it seems there are some connections with neo-Nazi and white supremacist by this movement and its alluding to a "master race".
Unfortunately most neo-nazis tend to flash the Nordic symbols (runes and the like) and use the terminology to make them “true Danish” (for instance), although I’m pretty sure they are not religious per see.
If they had read any of the sources, they would realise that Nazism (totalirism, strong man rule) and asatru (independence, resistance to outside ruling) are not compatible.
WormHeart
There is a difference Wormheart. There is no physical (archaeological) proof that Thor and Odin existed. There is that type of proof of Jesus Christ and with that I will offer a suggestion that you read Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ". It will show you that Christians do not rely on just "mere belief" in something we actually have physical proof (with some of it coming from non-Christian sources as well) to back our belief in Jesus.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/16/2008 10:47:19 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
I'm a pagan myself. Asatruar.
WormHeart
Wormheart, since you are one, I have a question.
Call me uneducated, and I didn't really pick it up in the article, but what exactly is a "pagan," by current standards? And what's the difference between a "pagan" and a "neopagan"? What does a pagan "do"???
Uneducated? Nonsense – if we never ask, we never learn.
Pagan is an umbrella term for a wide variety of faiths with some common ground. I’m mostly familiar with the European ones.
It will typically be the old religion in an area or among a people. Like the Druid-movement in Britan that the article refers to.
It is, at the most basic, modern day people taking up the faith of their ancestors as they best can.
Neo-pagan just signifies that it is *not* old-style paganism, but a modern faith.
Of course definitions tend to blur. You can hear “pagan” used as a slur against all non-Christians from time to time.
Being an asatruar I follow the old Nordic gods of my ancestors. Oding, Thor and so on.
What a pagan “do” is of course different from path to path, but most if not all honour the gods of their ancestors and have a closer relation to nature than the western major faiths today.
Not sure how much I am allowed to explain at this site, but that is be basics.
Note – US pagans have a unique difficulty, since the old religion of the area is Native American, and the old faith of the ancestors tend to be scrambled through all the mixing of people. Hence US pagans are often a little… strange by European standards.
WormHeart
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, Wormheart! You provided me with some insight. Now another question (or two). And please don't take this in any other way than is intended...I'm am just very, very curious and sincerely want to know (I've never had the opportunity to "talk" with a pagan before!). Why are you interested in a board that revolves around "Christian" discussion? And do you consider the God of Christianity (as in Jehovah) to be a god, as in Thor, etc? What is a pagan's, or neopagan's, view of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit?
I promise not to attack any answers you provide. It's just a very new concept for me and quite intriguing.
Thank you!
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/17/2008 2:53:40 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 292
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
There is a difference Wormheart. There is no physical (archaeological) proof that Thor and Odin existed.
Of course not.
People leave archaeological marks, gods do not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
There is that type of proof of Jesus Christ
Who was a man. Wheter or not he was also God did not leave marks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
and with that I will offer a suggestion that you read Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ".
I have :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
It will show you that Christians do not rely on just "mere belief" in something we actually have physical proof (with some of it coming from non-Christian sources as well) to back our belief in Jesus.
I would like to debate this, but it would be seriously off topic for this tread.
Would you like to start a new one?
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/17/2008 3:06:44 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, Wormheart! You provided me with some insight. Now another question (or two). And please don't take this in any other way than is intended...
No sweat.
If I was hyper-sensitive, I would not be at a Christian board. ;)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I'm am just very, very curious and sincerely want to know (I've never had the opportunity to "talk" with a pagan before!). Why are you interested in a board that revolves around "Christian" discussion?
I am active on lots of boards. My own faith community, some pagan, some secular, and a few Christian. We have no Born Again Christians in Denmark. It is (in Danish eyes) a very peculiar way to see the world, so I am fascinated by it. Besides – it gets boring to debate with people who all agree with you.
I like to debate religious issues – it gives me an opportunity to flex the brain muscle and sometimes I need to consider some of the way I think.
If your faith is strong, it will only grow with challenge.
I usually stick to Current Events and the Science folder.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
And do you consider the God of Christianity (as in Jehovah) to be a god, as in Thor, etc?
Yeah, basically.
God is considered a real god. Mighty but not almighty.
For some reason it seems he got really ambitious and has more or less declared war on all other gods.
I have some Christian friends, so I can see the positive power Christianity can be. I just cant ignore the word of God in the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
What is a pagan's, or neopagan's, view of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit?
Opinions on Jesus vary a lot. I have not decided myself. He might be a man. He might in fact be the son of a god. In any case he had / has a very great influence.
A lot of people consider the Holy Spirit to be conjecture. Reading these boards it is striking how often the Holy Spirit will agree with individual opinions on things.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I promise not to attack any answers you provide. It's just a very new concept for me and quite intriguing.
Thank you!
Oh, feel free to question anything you like.
It might be better to start a new tread on it, but I would not be here, if I was uncomfortable around critics. :o)
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/17/2008 8:44:51 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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Thanks, again for your graciousness and, obviously, honest and well thought out answers, Wormheart.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
And do you consider the God of Christianity (as in Jehovah) to be a god, as in Thor, etc?
Yeah, basically.
God is considered a real god. Mighty but not almighty.
For some reason it seems he got really ambitious and has more or less declared war on all other gods.
Is there a god that is considered "almighty"? Or are they all basically on a level field?
quote:
Oh, feel free to question anything you like.
It might be better to start a new tread on it, but I would not be here, if I was uncomfortable around critics. :o)
WormHeart
I'd agree about the new thread, but this one is already about paganism! So it's a good opportunity to learn all about it!
One of the reasons I'm so fascinated, is something I heard fairly recently that this all brings to mind. Missionaries in polytheistic areas say that it's very easy for followers of multiple gods to accept Jehovah God and Jesus. They just add Them to their existing group. So, the challenge for these missionaries is to get the polytheistic groups to deny the existance of any and all other gods and accept Jehovah as the one, true God.
Not really applicable to our discussion, but just one of the reasons for my interest! Now...you were saying? 
Thanks, again!
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/17/2008 10:36:09 AM
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mapachito13
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Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
I would like to debate this, but it would be seriously off topic for this tread.
Would you like to start a new one?
WormHeart
I would be honored to especially with an obviously intelligent young man such as yourself. We can join this forum that already exists.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/19/2008 2:02:08 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 292
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Thanks, again for your graciousness and, obviously, honest and well thought out answers, Wormheart.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Is there a god that is considered "almighty"? Or are they all basically on a level field?
It’s basically the same level. I have no idea how “powerlevels” among gods works out, or if they can gain or loose it.
There is a mention of a great lord that will arrive after Ragnarok, but that verse is considered Christian in origin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I'd agree about the new thread, but this one is already about paganism! So it's a good opportunity to learn all about it!
One of the reasons I'm so fascinated, is something I heard fairly recently that this all brings to mind. Missionaries in polytheistic areas say that it's very easy for followers of multiple gods to accept Jehovah God and Jesus. They just add Them to their existing group. So, the challenge for these missionaries is to get the polytheistic groups to deny the existance of any and all other gods and accept Jehovah as the one, true God.
Not really applicable to our discussion, but just one of the reasons for my interest! Now...you were saying?
Thanks, again!
That is very true.
A lot of vikings were baptised when they were trading in Europe, because a lot of places had rules against trading with non-Christians. Adding a god is no big deal as polytheists.
I have a feeling that it is a bit sneaking to go about it this way.
I guess it *is* rather hard to sell the concept of monotheism to people who are basically polytheists.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/19/2008 9:16:31 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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Thank you, Wormheart!
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RE: Neopaganism growing quickly - 7/26/2008 8:37:34 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2200
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quote:
We have no Born Again Christians in Denmark. It is (in Danish eyes) a very peculiar way to see the world, so I am fascinated by it. Besides – it gets boring to debate with people who all agree with you.
I never realized that but then I don't believe that Denmark (Norway and Sweden also I would think) were ever under the influence of Rome or the Christian church like most of the other European countries were. Your statement took me by surprise until I thought it through some more.
Did the Orthodox Church make any headway into Finland? Is it considered a Nordic country - I have heard both yes and no. I realize for centuries they had very close ties to Russia.
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This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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