Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (Full Version)

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drfuss -> Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 2:04:16 PM)

During the time of the law (Moses to Christ), could Gentiles be saved? If so, what did they have to do, if anything?

Some have said that unless Gentiles joined Israel and worshipped like the Jews, they would not be saved. Others have said that the Gentiles could be saved completely independent of Jewsih worship or the Law. Note that the law includes worshipping God as well as other requirements.



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 2:12:28 PM)

Any person since the beginning was saved by faith. Being a Israelite or the law has never saved anyone.

Bob



drfuss -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 2:52:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Any person since the beginning was saved by faith. Being a Israelite or the law has never saved anyone.

Bob


drfuss: Agreed. But that was not my question. Perhaps my queston was not clear.

Were the Gentiles expected to join the Jews (God's People) during the time of the Jewish Law?

Were they expected to worship and make sacrifices for sin?



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 3:27:56 PM)

quote:

Were the Gentiles expected to join the Jews (God's People) during the time of the Jewish Law?


Only if they wanted to be a part of the tribe or were a slave as I understand it.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Bob



p31woman -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 3:29:24 PM)

quote:

Were the Gentiles expected to join the Jews (God's People) during the time of the Jewish Law?


Yes. Salvation is by faith in the G-d of Israel. Yeshua Himself said "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22).

The story of Ruth is a picture of a Gentile joining herself to the Jewish people. Her declaration of faith is in vs. 16: "Don't press me to leave you and stop following you; for wherever you go, I will go; and wherever you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your G-d will be my G-d."

This seems to be the pattern that will continue in the end time: ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that G-d is with you."'" (Zech. 8:23)



Bluethread -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 4:05:48 PM)

Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Therefore, anyone who has a proper relationship with Adonai is saved. This is how it has always been. It is possible that the queen of Sheba was saved, for she sought out the wisdom of Soloman, which included Ha Torah. I believe Adonai holds us accountable for what He has revealed. This does not mean that we should keep ourselves ignorant, to avoid responsibility. That would be a sign that the Ruach(Spirit) is not in us.

Those who lived before the compilation of Ha Torah by Moshe, between the time of Moshe and the redemption, and those who lived after the redemption are saved by grace through faith in the promise that Adonai has provided. How they exemplified that faith is different, based on their understanding of Adonai. Time and place do not determine salvation or Adonai's blessings in and of themselves. It is understanding of Adonai and submission to that understanding that determines the degree of blessings and curses.



drfuss -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 6:51:33 PM)

drfuss: Thank you all for your responses. I tend to agree with Bluethread based on Romans 2:11-15. However, there are no examples, that I know of, in the Old Testament, unless you consider Job to have lived during the Law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Therefore, anyone who has a proper relationship with Adonai is saved. This is how it has always been. It is possible that the queen of Sheba was saved, for she sought out the wisdom of Soloman, which included Ha Torah. I believe Adonai holds us accountable for what He has revealed. This does not mean that we should keep ourselves ignorant, to avoid responsibility. That would be a sign that the Ruach(Spirit) is not in us.

Those who lived before the compilation of Ha Torah by Moshe, between the time of Moshe and the redemption, and those who lived after the redemption are saved by grace through faith in the promise that Adonai has provided. How they exemplified that faith is different, based on their understanding of Adonai. Time and place do not determine salvation or Adonai's blessings in and of themselves. It is understanding of Adonai and submission to that understanding that determines the degree of blessings and curses.



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 7:50:39 PM)

Prior to the resurrection what did Christ have to day about the subject?

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mar 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
Mar 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

There might be more but these come to mind.

Bob



endless_night -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 8:02:09 PM)

They would have to convert into Judaism (sorry, I forgot the name of what they would be known as) and followed the law.



Ezra -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 9:18:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: Thank you all for your responses. I tend to agree with Bluethread based on Romans 2:11-15. However, there are no examples, that I know of, in the Old Testament, unless you consider Job to have lived during the Law.


drfuss:

You forgot to read the book of Jonah, when the Law was in force.

We have in this small book one the the clearest examples of God's desire to save Gentiles by grace through faith (which is also how Jews were saved, as well as those before Israel came into existence), and the resistance of God's prophet to His mercy on the Gentlies (Jonah 4:1,2).

Here is what we find in Jonah 3:5,10:

"So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them... And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way, and God repented [changed His mind] of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them; and He did it not."

Scripture says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. The Ninevites also believed God and it was imputed to them for righteousness. They also "cried mightily" unto God, and "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved" (Joel:2:32), thus they were delivered.

Jonah knew (2:9) that salvation is of the LORD (although he was very angry at the outcome), but the Ninevites experienced God's "great kindness" because they believed God and repented (3:7,8). Also, God spared their children even though they could not repent -- "more than six score thousand [120, 000] persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand" (4:11). Amazing Grace!



Ezra -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/26/2008 9:30:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: endless_night
They would have to convert into Judaism (sorry, I forgot the name of what they would be known as) and followed the law.


Not so. See above.



DougHorton -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/27/2008 11:01:30 AM)

God's covenant was not just for the Hebrews. There were always other people mixed in.

Genesis 17
23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all {the servants} who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him. 24 Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the very same day Abraham was circumcised, and Ishmael his son. 27 All the men of his household, who were born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

Exodus 12
37 Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. 38 A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.

Throughout the Law, there are also numerous references to foreigners and how they should be treated, hoping that they would join the covenant people. For example:
Ex 22:21 - And a sojourner shalt thou not wrong, neither shalt thou oppress him: for ye were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

Ex 23:9 - And a sojourner shalt thou not oppress: for ye know the heart of a sojourner, seeing ye were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

De 10:19 - Love ye therefore the sojourner; for ye were sojourners in the land of Egypt.



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/27/2008 11:07:16 AM)

You're right Doug but what does this say about their salvation? Just because they are circumcised and a part of the tribe does not bring them to faith.

Bob



DougHorton -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/27/2008 4:07:50 PM)

No it doesn't. But being an Israelite brought nobody to faith either.

It only means they had an equal opportunity to about God's salvation as any other Israelite. Anyone who believed God was saved. Salvation has NEVER been based on the Law, whether the believer was an Israelite or a Gentile.



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/27/2008 7:43:30 PM)

quote:

No it doesn't. But being an Israelite brought nobody to faith either.


Fully agree Doug...

Bob



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/27/2008 7:52:44 PM)

Ezra…you bring up an interesting point; were the people of Nineveh saved for eternity or saved from short term destruction?

Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. (ESV)

Jon 3:10 When God saw their actions — they turned23 from their evil way of living!24 — God relented concerning the judgment25 he had threatened them with26 and he did not destroy them.27 (NET)

Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. (NIV)

Bob



Ezra -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (6/27/2008 8:10:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Ezra…you bring up an interesting point; were the people of Nineveh saved for eternity or saved from short term destruction?


bob:

Since God went to great pains to ensure that Jonah would get to Nineveh and preach repentance, it should be quite clear that this mission of Jonah's was not merely for temporary relief but for eternal salvation.

Nineveh is a type of the world of humanity, and "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

The fact that they "believed God" and "repented" and "cried mightily" to God means that they met the conditions for salvation, since "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", and repentance means a turning from sins and idols, and a turning to to the living God.

We should neither make salvation too complicated, nor should we underestimate the preaching of the Gospel and the infinite grace of God.



drfuss -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/2/2008 9:18:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Ezra…you bring up an interesting point; were the people of Nineveh saved for eternity or saved from short term destruction?


bob:

Since God went to great pains to ensure that Jonah would get to Nineveh and preach repentance, it should be quite clear that this mission of Jonah's was not merely for temporary relief but for eternal salvation.

Nineveh is a type of the world of humanity, and "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

The fact that they "believed God" and "repented" and "cried mightily" to God means that they met the conditions for salvation, since "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", and repentance means a turning from sins and idols, and a turning to to the living God.

We should neither make salvation too complicated, nor should we underestimate the preaching of the Gospel and the infinite grace of God.


drfuss: I agree.

Jonah did (reluctantly) what God had intended for His chosen people Israel to do, i.e. preach to the rest of the world about God. Of course, Israel failed miserably as Jonah tried to do when he went the other way. I think Jonah's initial actions and his later response to God's mercy on Nineveh, was an indication of why Israel failed being God's chosen royal preisthood.



drfuss -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/2/2008 9:20:47 PM)

I just came up with another scripture. Don't know why I didn't think of it before.

John 4:21,22
21 "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."


In John, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews implying that Samaritans cannot be saved. Does that mean that Gentiles must become Jews to receive salvation during the time from Moses to the Cross?



DougHorton -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/3/2008 3:57:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

In John, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews implying that Samaritans cannot be saved. Does that mean that Gentiles must become Jews to receive salvation during the time from Moses to the Cross?


No, it does not say that Samaritans cannot be saved, but that salvation is of, or from the Jews. In other words, it comes through the Jews. Remember the last part of God's promise to Abraham:

Genesis 12:3
And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Salvation comes only by faith. That has been true from Adam to today. It was never faith and family. It was never faith and tradition. It was never faith and nationality.

Salvation always has come only by faith to anybody with ears to hear.



drfuss -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/3/2008 5:06:09 PM)

drfuss: The post below is from the Bible Section which the Moderator moved to the Salvation Section even though the OP was not intended to deal with our salvation at all. This OP was intended to only consider salvation of the Gentiles during the time of the Law (Moses to Christ). Even though it has been put in the salvation section, hopefully we can address only the Gentiles salvation during the law. I hope Lapidoth followed us into this thread.


Lapidoth writes:
"As you read through the OT you will see (if knowledgable about
the common wealth of Israel) that the Gentiles per se are included.

Terms such as "strangers among you", etc.
They were included with the Israelites if they accepted the stipulations.
Salvation has always been by Grace, before the Law, during the Law,
and now as presumed, after the Law. We haven't been taught the
proper way of looking at the Scriptures, so many questions like this
come up."

drfuss: I know about and agree with the above, but my question is what about those Gentiles who had no connection with Israel and therefore did not have any stipulations to accept.



Bluethread -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/3/2008 5:07:15 PM)

I believe there is personal redemption and social redemption. The first is eturnal and the latter is temperal. I believe, Yonah's understanding of his mission was the latter. That is why he was reluctant, because he wanted the oppressive Assyrian Empire destroyed. I also believe Adonai's purpose was the former. That is the lessen of the gourd and the worm. Social redemption buys time for the redemption of the individual. I believe we are experiencing the benefits of social redemption in the USA, due to our application of Adonai's ways to our governmental system. However, as we drift away from Adonai's ways the window oopportunity for salvation without persecution gradually disappear.



p31woman -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/3/2008 5:36:50 PM)

quote:

quote:
quote:


ORIGINAL: p31woman

quote:

Does that mean that Gentiles had to join Israel or worship with Israel to receive salvation during the time from Moses to the Cross?



I believe that this is *still* the case, post-Cross as it were (G-d never changing nor being bound to time). G-d's promises-- of a Messiah, of a Kingdom, etc.-- were made to His chosen people, Israel. Yes, the promises were meant to eventually include all peoples, but only by means of those peoples being grafted into Israel. G-d, in His mercy, allows believing Gentiles-- people who "had no Messiah, [who] were estranged from the national life of Isra'el, [who] were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise, [who] were in this world without hope and without God" (Eph. 2:12)-- to share in the blessings and promises of Israel. (Eph. 2:13 "But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood.")


Romans 11:16b And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!
22 So take a good look at God's kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God's kindness toward you - provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

(Natural branches = Jews; wild olives = Gentiles)




drfuss: Then you believe that all Gentiles, during the time of the Law, that did not associate with Israel in worshipping God were lost. Am I reading you correctly?


Yes. However, I don't presume to know for sure whether they're lost permanently. My hope is that one day, all people who never had a chance to either choose or reject the G-d of Israel will get that chance, but that is of course not up to me. [:)]



drfuss -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/3/2008 8:09:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: p31woman

quote:

quote:
quote:


ORIGINAL: p31woman

quote:

Does that mean that Gentiles had to join Israel or worship with Israel to receive salvation during the time from Moses to the Cross?



I believe that this is *still* the case, post-Cross as it were (G-d never changing nor being bound to time). G-d's promises-- of a Messiah, of a Kingdom, etc.-- were made to His chosen people, Israel. Yes, the promises were meant to eventually include all peoples, but only by means of those peoples being grafted into Israel. G-d, in His mercy, allows believing Gentiles-- people who "had no Messiah, [who] were estranged from the national life of Isra'el, [who] were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise, [who] were in this world without hope and without God" (Eph. 2:12)-- to share in the blessings and promises of Israel. (Eph. 2:13 "But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood.")


Romans 11:16b And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!
22 So take a good look at God's kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God's kindness toward you - provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

(Natural branches = Jews; wild olives = Gentiles)




drfuss: Then you believe that all Gentiles, during the time of the Law, that did not associate with Israel in worshipping God were lost. Am I reading you correctly?


Yes. However, I don't presume to know for sure whether they're lost permanently. My hope is that one day, all people who never had a chance to either choose or reject the G-d of Israel will get that chance, but that is of course not up to me. [:)]


drfuss: Thank you. I orginally believed the answer was no, but I knew others thought it was yes. I am coming around, I think you are probably right that the answer is yes.



bob97 -> RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? (7/3/2008 11:54:41 PM)

quote:

drfuss: I know about and agree with the above, but my question is what about those Gentiles who had no connection with Israel and therefore did not have any stipulations to accept.


The question is…did the Holy Spirit write the laws of God into the hearts of the gentles? All…from the beginning have been saved under the provisions of the New Covenant.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The OT Israelites (in mass) were not saved because the law was written in stone not in the heart. Those who were saved did have the working of the HS and were granted faith to believe, the rest were blinded.

The only way a gentile could be saved was to have the working of the HS in their hearts…did it happen?

Bob



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