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RE: God's Chosen People Known - 7/16/2008 11:36:12 AM
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drfuss
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GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE KNOWN
drfuss: The fact that Israel was God's chosen people was well known throughout the known world. Gentiles who really wanted to know and worship God had plenty of opportunities to join Israel and worship God. As stated in my last post, the way to join Israel was well defined in the law.
Joshua 2:9-11 (Rahab) - 9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. 11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
Joshua 4:24 - 23 For the LORD your God dried up the waters of Jordan from before you, until ye were passed over, as the LORD your God did to the Red sea, which he dried up from before us, until we were gone over: 24 That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.
drfuss: Jonah preached to the people of Nineveh that the city would be destroyed in 40 days. They repented and the city was spared. Note that the people of Nineveh knew that the god of Israel was God; otherwise they would have ignored Jonah. Also, they repented only to save their city; there is no indication of personal salvation or worshipping God.
GENTILE CONVERSIONS
drfuss: I did not find any scripture where the main purpose was to indicate a Gentile converted to become a Israelite. I believe it happened so often that it was not mentioned. The scriptures include a few conversions, but only as a part of another issue.
Rahab and Ruth converted to the God of Israel - Listed only due to lineage of David and Christ.
II Kings 5:17 - 17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? For thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.
Comment: Although Naaman returned to Syria, The Israel earth was his connection to Israel when he worshipped the God of Israel.
Uriah the Hittite was a Hittite that apparently converted to the God of Israel. He was accepted as one of Israel's great men.
Herod the Great’s family was from Idumea and converted to Judaism about 130 BC when the Maccabean Jews controlled Idumea and required conversion. (from history)
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RE: God's Chosen People Known - 7/16/2008 11:55:03 AM
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drfuss
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NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES
John 4:21,22 - 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Comment: Jesus was referring to the time of the law; the next verse indicates a change in worship. Note that salvation is "of the Jews", not "for the Jews". This was to include those who worship with the Jews.
Acts 11:18 - 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Comment: Prior to Cornelius, all Jews did not believe that Gentiles could have salvation except through Jewish conversion.
Romans 9:13-16 - 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Comment: Since much of Romans discusses Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, I believe Esau is representative of all Gentiles in this scripture. We may think that salvation only through Israel’s worship is unfair, but God shows mercy on who He chooses.
Romans 11:16b-20 -and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear.
Comment: Paul is talking to Gentiles (vs. 13). The wild olive tree (Gentiles) was not holy until grafted into the root which was holy which then applied to the Gentiles. Also note that the Gentiles only replaced an unbelieving branch and not the whole tree.
The above combination of scriptures leads me to believe that, during the law, Gentile's salvation was dependent on worshipping with Israel. Of course today, both Jews and Gentiles are saved by Grace through Faith without necessarily worshipping with Israel.
Comments are welcome.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 12:52:34 PM
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DougHorton
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Since Adam, there has only been one way of salvation... FAITH.
The coming of the Law did not change that. The Law was only the illustration of greater truths. No believer was ever told to put themselves under the Law in order to gain salvation.
They were told to put themselves under the Law in order to become part of the outward showing of the covenant.
We have a similar situation today when Baptists do not allow their children to enter the covenant through Baptism. Baptists do not lose their salvation by not partaking in the covenant.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 1:19:46 PM
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bob97
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Don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tested Me in the wilderness. There your ancestors tested and tried My patience, even though they saw My miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, 'Their hearts always turn away from Me. They refuse to do what I tell them.' So in My anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter My place of rest.'(" Heb 3:8-11)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. (2Co 3:14)
No one has ever been saved by worshiping with Israel based on the law and the temple. In fact, those not seeing Christ or by faith believing in God have all perished. As God told them…”you will not enter my rest”.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 2:03:45 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Since Adam, there has only been one way of salvation... FAITH.
drfuss: Grace and faith.
The coming of the Law did not change that. The Law was only the illustration of greater truths. No believer was ever told to put themselves under the Law in order to gain salvation.
drfuss: True, the law did not save. But, faith was demonstrated by joining in worship and sacrifices during the time of the law.
They were told to put themselves under the Law in order to become part of the outward showing of the covenant.
drfuss: Who was told? Gentiles? Where?
We have a similar situation today when Baptists do not allow their children to enter the covenant through Baptism. Baptists do not lose their salvation by not partaking in the covenant.
drfuss: Are you saying that believing Gentiles did not have to come to Israel, but it would be much better if they did come and join Israel?
< Message edited by drfuss -- 7/16/2008 2:43:43 PM >
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 2:19:36 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tested Me in the wilderness. There your ancestors tested and tried My patience, even though they saw My miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, 'Their hearts always turn away from Me. They refuse to do what I tell them.' So in My anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter My place of rest.'(" Heb 3:8-11)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. (2Co 3:14)
No one has ever been saved by worshiping with Israel based on the law and the temple. In fact, those not seeing Christ or by faith believing in God have all perished. As God told them…”you will not enter my rest”.
Bob
drfuss: Okay, I can see where my posts left faith and grace out of the picture. I assumed that one would have to have faith to accept God's grace and then would want to join God's chosen People.
I don't see how "you will not enter my rest" enters into this. I did not intend to say that all in Israel was saved or that anyone was saved by obeying the law. Did I say that?
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 3:57:22 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: Are you saying that believing Gentiles did not have to come to Israel, but it would be much better if they did come and join Israel?
Yes, that's just about it. There was no command to join Israel, but by staying out of the covenant, they missed out on the covenant blessings God provided for this life. However, whether they did or did not, if they were saved by faith, they stayed saved by faith.
God has always had one plan of salvation for fallen man. There never was, and never will be, a Plan B.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/16/2008 8:52:51 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: Are you saying that believing Gentiles did not have to come to Israel, but it would be much better if they did come and join Israel?
Yes, that's just about it. There was no command to join Israel, but by staying out of the covenant, they missed out on the covenant blessings God provided for this life. However, whether they did or did not, if they were saved by faith, they stayed saved by faith.
God has always had one plan of salvation for fallen man. There never was, and never will be, a Plan B.
drfuss: How could Israel be a kingdom of Priest to those believers who chose to have no contact with Israel?
Do you think it was God's plan for all believers to come to Israel, but many did not?
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/17/2008 6:32:24 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: How could Israel be a kingdom of Priest to those believers who chose to have no contact with Israel?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.
First, the priests in Israel served all, whether they were circumcised or not.
Second, many of the circumcised did not avail themselves of the priests' services. Not everyone traveled to the tabernacle or temple three times a year and many did not go at all. Often a representative for the family went. Nonetheless, they were not thrown out of the covenant people.
Thirdly, and similarly, there is no requirement for Gentile believers to avail themselves of the priestly services, except when they want to partake. Otherwise, they were completely free.
quote:
Do you think it was God's plan for all believers to come to Israel, but many did not?
This is tricky because of definitions. Are we using Israel to define the nation, the ethnic people or the believers?
No, I do not think it was God's plan for all believers to join the nation of Israel.
No, I do not think it was God's plan for all believers to join the ethnic people of Israel.
Yes, I do think it is God's plan for all believers to become to the heavenly kingdom of Israel. And this is of God, not human effort. God makes us his people. We do not "join", so to speak.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/17/2008 10:22:33 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: How could Israel be a kingdom of Priest to those believers who chose to have no contact with Israel?
Doug: I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.
drfuss: Ex. 19:5-8 calls Israel a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation". I think God was referring to the entire nation as being a kingdom of priests to the rest of the world; not just the Levitical priests which were priests for the rest of Israel.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/17/2008 10:52:49 PM
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DougHorton
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If we are to accept the Apostle Peter's interpretation of that same passage, and I would think twice before challenging his interpretation, then all believers are those priests. 1 Peter 2:9
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/18/2008 1:50:43 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
If we are to accept the Apostle Peter's interpretation of that same passage, and I would think twice before challenging his interpretation, then all believers are those priests.
I Peter 2:9,10 - "9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
drfuss: Peter was addressing the Christians, not the Nation of Israel. This is referring to Christians (Jews and Gentiles) having replaced the Nation of Israel as the royal priesthood for all people.
I agree that now all believers are those priests. Just like all the Nation of Israel were those priests to the rest of the world, during the time of the law. The Levitical priesthood were there for the Nation of Isreal.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/18/2008 2:02:10 PM
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DougHorton
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God has not changed His method.
Peter was using a passage that was given at the time the Law was established and showing how it has not changed and still applies. He was not giving it a new meaning.
If Peter drew no distinctions in the calling God has for us, we should not either. The body of believers is one continuous flow from Adam until the Judgment Day.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/18/2008 5:14:46 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
God has not changed His method.
Peter was using a passage that was given at the time the Law was established and showing how it has not changed and still applies. He was not giving it a new meaning.
If Peter drew no distinctions in the calling God has for us, we should not either. The body of believers is one continuous flow from Adam until the Judgment Day.
Ex. 19:5,6 - "5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
drfuss: But God did draw distinctions between Israel and the rest of the people. In Ex. 19:5,6, God was speaking only to Israel. Not that Israel was to be a peculiar treasure unto God above all people. In this context, Israel was to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. As a kingdom of priests, they were above all people. All people would include other believers, if any. Israel was to act as priests between God and man.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/18/2008 8:17:24 PM
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DougHorton
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I did not say that God does not draw distinctions between his covenant people and non-covenant people, between believers and believers, between the elect and the reprobate.
I said His method of salvation remains the same throughout the history of humanity. Before the giving of the Law and since the giving of the Law, God provided His grace and men must have faith.
This is the only way a patriarch was saved, a Hebrew was saved, a Kennite was saved, an Israelite was saved, a Gentile was saved, a Jew was saved, a Greek was saved, an Egyptian was saved, or an American was saved. There is no other method.
Adam was saved the very same way you and I are saved, and so was every believer between his day and ours.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/18/2008 9:45:01 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I did not say that God does not draw distinctions between his covenant people and non-covenant people, between believers and believers, between the elect and the reprobate.
I said His method of salvation remains the same throughout the history of humanity. Before the giving of the Law and since the giving of the Law, God provided His grace and men must have faith.
This is the only way a patriarch was saved, a Hebrew was saved, a Kennite was saved, an Israelite was saved, a Gentile was saved, a Jew was saved, a Greek was saved, an Egyptian was saved, or an American was saved. There is no other method.
Adam was saved the very same way you and I are saved, and so was every believer between his day and ours.
drfuss: I agree with the above except during the time of the law when Grace and Faith were centered around God's chosen people. In my post #52, I gave four New Testament scriptures that specifically support my position. You keep giving the above position, but you give no scriptures to support your position that would specifically apply to the time during the law versus before and/or after the time of the law.
Doug, I appreciated you taking the time to discuss this with me and would have no problem changing to your position. But you have not convinced me by scripture. I believed your position for many years and, frankly, would be more comfortable with it. But having now studied this issue, I think my current position is supported by scripture.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/18/2008 10:10:32 PM
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DougHorton
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I suggest you try to find any historic theologians who agree with your stance.
God is not in the business of suddenly revealing new doctrine. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 7/20/2008 4:06:08 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I suggest you try to find any historic theologians who agree with your stance.
God is not in the business of suddenly revealing new doctrine. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
drfuss: I found three historic theologians that agree with my stance:
John - John 4:21,22;
Luke - Acts 11;18;
Paul - Romans 9:13-16 and Romans 11:16b-20.
Thank you for the discussions; they have been very helpful in my study.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/5/2008 3:19:15 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Peter was addressing the Christians, not the Nation of Israel. This is referring to Christians (Jews and Gentiles) having replaced the Nation of Israel as the royal priesthood for all people. Are you sure?
Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised ....
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen ...
I believe an argument could be made that Peter was writing to Jewish believers. Paul never used that phraseology in writing to predominately gentile congregations.
The passages Peter quotes were all written to the Israelite people. It is clear that according to the Law of Moses, Israel was to bring God's Torah (teaching) to the entire world. They did not do that. Jesus upbraids the leaders at one point, stating the Temple was to be a "...house of prayer for all nations."
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/6/2008 1:36:25 AM
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prophet
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This is Faith :
But Ruth replied,
“Stop urging me to abandon you! 50
For wherever you go, I will go.
Wherever you live, I will live.
Your people will become my people,
and your God will become my God.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/6/2008 1:51:29 AM
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prophet
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Another:
Now before the spies 18 went to sleep, Rahab 19 went up 20 to the roof. 2:9 She said to the men, “I know the Lord is handing this land over to you.
For we heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and how you annihilated the two Amorite kings, Sihon and Og, on the other side of the Jordan. 25 2:11 When we heard the news we lost our courage and no one could even breathe for fear of you. 26 For the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on earth below! 2:12 So now, promise me this with an oath sworn in the Lord’s name. 27 Because I have shown allegiance to you, show allegiance to my family. 28 Give me a solemn pledge 29 2:13 that you will spare the lives of my father, mother, brothers, sisters, and all who belong to them, and rescue us 30 from death.”
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/6/2008 8:39:35 PM
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drfuss
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drfuss: Recently I heard someone use the following scripture to support the position that Gentiles could be saved during the law without be involved with God's Chosen People.
Acts 17:30,31
"30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
I don't think this scripture applies. Am I missing something? What do you think?
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/11/2008 10:16:45 AM
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bob97
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Before the law...that time between Adam and Moses there was no law and all sinned, including Abraham. I think the meaning of the text is that God did not hold ignorance of His laws against them because without the law, there was no understanding of sin. In Abraham's case because he followed the verbal instructions that God passed to him, he was considered righteous. I think all who obeyed what they knew of God would receive the same salvation but only after the actual resurrection of Christ some 2000 years later. So all of those saved were saved under the covering of the new covenant.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/15/2008 2:30:30 AM
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whisperingwaters
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What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity.
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/15/2008 8:02:49 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity.
drfuss: The above is what I thought until I made a study on God's Chosen People and came across the scriptures listed in my posts #51 & #52. Note that some of those scriptures are New Testament scriptures, so they are not just for Jewish consumption.
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