|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/30/2008 12:01:57 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
If we go on results only to show what God's will is, we will be very wrong, as in the Hebrews in the desert,...
God willed for them to GO IN to His promised to them land, which was full of everything that He had promised them, and He would have seen to it that they were well taken care of and provided for, it was more than just the Land, it was a multi-place of goodness.
they did not go in because of unbelief, and specifically becasue they did not mix Gods' words to them with faith.
so if we look at the appearance we could say that because they died in the wilderness it was not Gods will for them to go in,
but this isnt true, sure they died, but it wasnt Gods will.
same with healing, sure they die, but it was not Gods will.
faith is not something to beat people up on or blame them for either, very few teach what faith is or how to use it,
it took God himself years and years to teach Abraham what it was, and finally God had to change his name to make him catch on, it was only after God changed his name, did Abraham quickly get the promised result. Abraham meant father of nations, and everyone would be calling him, 'father of nations,' where do we dig the well, 'father of nations' can I have tomorrow off, etc. and he would intro. himself as 'father of nations'
faith is not an easy thing and it needs constant nourishment from Gods Words, constant upkeep and no one should ever be blamed for not having it, or not the right kind, they need to be taught faith and even then people have to learn how to use it, or how it works.
its a real unseen thing,
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/30/2008 12:52:30 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
I wanted to answer someone in the previous pages on this question who said they wondered where in the bible is the support for people falling
under God's power, and is it a God thing.
The example is in the garden of Gethsemene, where Jesus prayed, and the guard came to arrest him and when they asked who was JEsus of Nazareth, Jesus replied, "I Am" and they all fell backward under the power of God and fell to the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/30/2008 6:11:33 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leadership
Pastor: Earthless, as you hold the office of a pastor it is obvious that God has placed on your heart to help the mutes, or you would have not brought up these individuals.
So then could you explain to me why you would not lay hands on them to pray the prayer of faith to see them healed. As stated in (James 5:14-15)Is any sick among you? Let him Call (e-mail, write, or contact) for the elders (Pastor) of the church; and let them pray over him. and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up.
Then the mute would no longer be oppressed by the devil as stated in Act 10:38. And just think What a time of rejoicing before the Lord it would be a pastor being used as a tool to bring glory to Jesus, And the mute speaking joyous faith filled words of praise to Jesus the Great "SOZO". Pastor, would not this be fullfilling the great comission of setting the captive free?
I absolutely pray for those that suffer of a physical problem. Jesus predicted for His followers poverty, rejection, and persecution. His disciples were willing to face the tyrant's brandished steel, the lion's gory mane, and the fires of a thousand deaths because they knew that they were not of this world.
They were merely pilgrims and sojourners in a foreign land. Perhaps Charles Haddon Spurgeon said it best: "The Old Covenant was a covenant of prosperity, the New Covenant is a Covenant of Adversity whereby we are weaned from the present world and made fit for the world to come."
In Hebrews 11, often referred to as the "Faith Hall of Fame," we read of those who were commended for their faith, yet were destitute, persecuted, imprisoned, and suffered torturous deaths. These men and women set examples for us, and yet their lives were characterized more by perseverance than by prosperity.
Certainly, this message will not sell well in a self-indulgent age. Nonetheless, we had better be glad that our heavenly Father decides what is best for us and not we ourselves, because only He truly understands what we need and what we can handle. One shudders to think of what would happen if God gave us everything we clamored for.
I do not wish to be misunderstood: I believe in divine healing and in God's provision for every detail of our lives.
In addition, I do not associate piety with poverty. I thank God for those He has prospered who are dedicated to using their resources for the extension of His Kingdom.
But for the Word of Faith teachers, healing and prosperity became so important that they had to find some way to guarantee them, and they did this by exalting man's faith at the expense of God's sovereignty.
Thus, they developed the doctrine that God created the world out of nothing by faith, and that He created men as "little gods" to exercise the same kind of faith. Faith therefore becomes a powerful force that gets results, whether in the hands of a believer or a nonbeliever.
On the basis of this virtual deification of human faith, the purveyors of the word-faith message promise health and wealth to those who exercise faith in their faith rather than faith in their God. As has been well said elsewhere, faith is only as good as the object on which it is placed.
Walter Martin used to say, "All faith is subsumed under the overarching biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God." The Creator is the Lord of the universe, not a cosmic "gofer" at the beck and call of His creation. It is not our faith that sits on the throne, but our sovereign God (1 Chronicles 29:10-12).
Please let me know if you have any other questions. As to my question to that poster.. it remains to be addressed by those that believe like he does.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/30/2008 11:15:50 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
A mute person can say things with their hands, ie. sign languge, and also they could write, which is also expressing what they want to say.
If not they could just think it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 9:00:12 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4110
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
re: using one scripture by itself to answer something, I think this can lead into problems and errors,
for example, the Word of God says, "the sum of Thy Words is truth" this means
that often you may have even contradictory things being said by the bible, in diff. places, but you must add them all up to come to the proper conclusion. because if you don't you will be wrong. Not only do you have to consider the WHOLE of scripture, it is just as important HOW you consider it. The bible was not written from our modern western logical viewpoint; it was written from a very different mindset and logical framework.
Only by "summing" it all up IN THAT FRAMEWORK can you come to the proper understanding and conclusion.
As you said, scripture contains what christian theologians call "paradoxes" and "mysteries." If looked at from Hebraic logic they are neither mysterious or paradoxical.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 12:08:27 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
A mute person can say things with their hands, ie. sign languge, and also they could write, which is also expressing what they want to say.
If not they could just think it.
That is not what the poster was saying. Hence, the questions...
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 12:57:08 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1260
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Actually, there is a verse that talks about this: It's in John 17:6: Now when He said to them, "I am He." they drew back and fell to the ground.
Now this is what gets me, off the topic. If you stood before the Lord when He was in the flesh, and He said, I am He, and boom!! You found yourself on the ground and can't get up and Jesus heals a man's ear by putting it back on the guy, wouldn't you think to yourself, maybe it's not a good idea to crucify this guy?? I mean these pharasses were out of their minds!! common sense says, maybe we should just listen to this guy. Very sad.
It also happened to John in Revelations 1:17. It also happened to several of the OT prophets. I think they called it 'slain in the spirit' b/c they didn't know what to call it. Ya got to call it something. I've had it happen to me before, it's pretty wild when someone doesn't even touch you and find yourself on the ground. God is so very good. I think I would have called it God pinning you to the ground. :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheBibleTRUTH
Tomb,
I also want to point out that TV Evangelists like Benne Hinn are not truthful when they "slay to the spirit." There is no account in the Bible where people got knocked out on stage or anything of the sort. Anything that doesn't fall into the nine manifestations of the spirit in I Corinthians 12 are lies from Satan. The reason those people don't get delivered is because it's not God working through those TV Evangelists, it's the devil. His "power" is completely counterfeit. Just be glad you aren't wrapped up in that stuff.
So I guess I should have clarified that the first two are incorrect. The last one is truthful, to an extent. Sorry!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 1:11:48 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1260
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
But for the Word of Faith teachers, healing and prosperity became so important that they had to find some way to guarantee them, and they did this by exalting man's faith at the expense of God's sovereignty.
Thus, they developed the doctrine that God created the world out of nothing by faith, and that He created men as "little gods" to exercise the same kind of faith. Faith therefore becomes a powerful force that gets results, whether in the hands of a believer or a nonbeliever.
On the basis of this virtual deification of human faith, the purveyors of the word-faith message promise health and wealth to those who exercise faith in their faith rather than faith in their God. As has been well said elsewhere, faith is only as good as the object on which it is placed.
Well, actually Jesus Himself was the one who concentrated on Faith. Faith is all throughout the gospels. When the woman had the issue of blood, she touched Jesus' fringe on his cloak and she was healed. Jesus said it was youir faith that healed you. No where in the gospels did Jesus ever say, God will heal you if He choses. In fact, if you do a study on the gospels, you'll see it's all Jesus talked about, faith, faith, faith. To say saying exalting man's faith at the expense of God's sovereignty means Jesus was wrong to tell everyone to have faith, it was your faith that healed you. I've never seen such faith in Isreal, just have faith, Oh, you of little faith, etc. Someone down the line, in the past, didn't get faith or understand it, so they came up with this doctrine that says, God may or may not heal you, which isn't scriptural. you can't find a bible verse that says this, not even in the OT. So instead man uses logic to explain away God's healing. Such and such didn't get healed, God decided not to do it. This is just man's way of trying to figure out a Spiritual God. God say, My ways are not your ways. So man decided to make his way, God's way b/c he didn't understand or try to understand God. Now I follow Hagin's teachings and I have for over 20 years. The center of his teachings is Christ and our faith in Christ, which is scriptural. See the gospels.
Jesus Himself focused on faith, fed off it and fed it to others. That's why these preachers concentrate so much on faith. My life revolves around my faith in Christ, it's my anchor to my life. Does that make sense? I refuse to believe that God may not do what He promised to do in His word. All of His promises are yes and amen. If God won't heal, then God's a liar b/c He promised He would heal us if we trusted Him to do it. Jesus never once turned anyone away, but instead was drawn to others' faith, like a magnat. Today, the same Jesus is also attracted to faith like a magnet. Remember Jesus is God. To say God won't heal is saying Jesus lied and all the gospels are a farce. Opps, got to go, b-day party for my favey niece. She's 9 today. I wish they wouldn't grow up. Peace. :)
kim
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 2:52:57 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Kim,
Faith in God - not faith in our faith.. or faith in our words. He is the object and creator of our faith, not One that is controlled by it like a cosmic bellhop.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 6:30:22 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4110
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Faith in God - not faith in our faith.. or faith in our words. He is the object and creator of our faith, not One that is controlled by it like a cosmic bellhop.
Thank you.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 6:42:49 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
well, Earthless, actually in the bible God says things like this, "Command
you me concerning the works of my hands", and other places "ask and
receive that your joy may be full". and things like "anything you ask in
faith believing, you will receive".
I believe non-Word of Faith types of believers may have made up that
God doesn't will for all of his people this or that, according to what
He is doing with each individual, however the biblical record doesn't
confirm this, for example, Jesus, who said of Himself that if we saw Him,
we also saw the Father, who He is, What He is Like, etc.
and Jesus never said to a single person any of the things you are saying
that you believe is the truth of the bible, ie. that God chooses to withhold
things like healing, or sustenance, or food, etc. etc.
This is a very grim picture of God you are painting with this kind of talk.
I personally think these ideas you are talking about came from people
making up excuses for why they didn't see healing when they asked etc.
They came to the wrong conclusion and are actually I think maybe
slandering God with these ideas, ie what God said himself to Job's friends
that they spoke in error about God and about Job.
I dont know what poster you are referring to, but I do know if someone
doesn't have speech capacity , and they use sign language instead that
this would be the same as speech becasue it is them saying things the
way the can.
I think the written record is clear about God, and that there are ways to
be healed, many diff. ones the bible talks about, and God wants them well,
but perhaps the individual christians' application of these ways is not up
to what it should be ie. annointing for healing, maybe they havent received the
annoininting and arent tarrying long enough in teh presence of God to get it,
maybe the elders do not relaly know faith so arent praying THE prayer of FAITH, when they pray for the sick,
maybe the person hasnt been taught what faith is and they have too little
experience in using it.
Plus I have another point to make on God's soverignity, in that it is not what you think either...... not exactly.
I will do it next post here on this forum
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 6:46:32 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
So the passages/context of Jesus telling His followers to expect poverty, persecution, family troubles, and death because of Him are not really in the Bible?
Nowhere in Scripture is physical healing absolutely promised (for this current life) to every and all believers.
Nowhere in Scripture is material wealth absolutely promised (for this current life) to every and all believers.
Ironically, we can gander that you suffer from illness (of any sort) and you also are not rolling in the trillions.
God forbid He gave us everything we prayed for. I would have been dead a long time ago because of my short sightedness and ignorance. Praise God for the 'No's' He says to many of our prayers.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 7:00:39 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
To Earthless and ALL:
Re: God 's Sovereignity. Is HE? Sovereign? well yes, ...and no.
Yes He is GOD ALMIGHTY. HE IS ABOVE ALL AND THERE IS NO OTHER.
THIS IS HIS PLACE HIS UNIVERSE, HE MADE ALL THE RULES, ETC. AND
PREDETERMINED HOW EVERYTHING WOULD RUN, ETC. INCLUDING US
HUMANS AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH US, INCLUDING OUR
REDEMPTION.
But can and will He just do anything? No. Why? Because He made the
rules and he sticks to his own rules too.
ie. HERE IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER DEMONSTRATED ABOUT GOD'S SOVEREIGNITY, I KNOW YOU THINK GOD IS CONTROLLING EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE, PROBABLY, BUT HE DOESN'T.
JESUS HIMSELF GAVE HIS AUTHORITY TO THE BELIEVERS BEFORE HE LEFT THE EARTH. HE DELEGATED, AND IN FACT HE GAVE BACK THE AUTHORITY THAT JESUS BOUGHT BACK FOR HUMANKIND THAT ADAM/EVE GAVE AWAY THROUGH THEIR WRONG ACTIONS.
THE REAL CRUX SHOWING HOW IT WORKS, GOD'S SOVEREIGNITY, IS
......THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION.
"IS GOD'S WILL ALWAYS DONE". (how will you answer?)
the correct answer is - No.
Even though many things ARE God's will, they ARE NOT done in the earth,
not in general, not in the individual lives of people, not by churches, not by
preachers, not by students, not much of God's will is ever done on this earth
at all.
However, it IS GODS WILLL and it should be, but it isnt' and God has allowed people to have this freedom.
This shows Gods sovereignity, but it is limited even to the will of man.
This doesnt meant that God is not doing plans irregardless of the choices of people, etc. that are outside the choices of people, He does all the time, and they succeed, but to say God is controlling everything, is wrong
HE is not.
He has left a lot of things up to us and our neighbours.
A wise person WILL do the WILL OF GOD like JEsus did.
Not many wise, though. Even those who know are doing very little of it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 8/31/2008 7:13:52 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
P.S. I wasn't comdemning folk for not doing God's will, or anything, I was just sizing up the situation, that even people that are endeavouring to do God's will are not plenty of the time.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/1/2008 1:25:37 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1260
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Well, actually there are verses to back up healing and prosperity. Isaiah 53:5 says by His stripes we are healed. Now the word healed in Hebrew means healed like a physician who heals. Now who stripes? Well, the only person I know who has stripes is JEsus and I'm sure Isaiah wasn't talking about zebras.  Also Peter talked about this: 1 Peter 2:24 echos the verse in Isaiah. Now I've heard others say this means spiritual healing, but again in the greek, Peter said healed like a physician. And if healing wasn't promised for us, then why did Jesus heal everyone who asked of Him? Acts says of Jesus: . . . healing those who were oppressed by the devil . . . Acts 10:38. Why would Jesus heal those when He was on earth, then say, opps, sory, I'm pulling that back. Again, it doesn't make sense. here's more verses, you can look them up yourself: Exodus 15:26, 23:25, duet 7:14,15, 28:1-14, Joshua 21:45, 1 kings 8:56, ps 91:9-10, 14-16, ps 34:19, 91:9-10,14-16, ps 103:1-5, ps 107:19-21, ps 118:17, is 40:28-31, Jer 1:12, Jer 30:17, nahum 1:9, malachi 4:2, phil 2:13
As for prosperity. There are soooo many verses that I'll just put the addresses and you can look them up later
Ps 37:19, ps 84:11, ps 112:3, prov 14:11, Is 60:6-7, 17, 11, ps 145:15, Due 28:1-14, Due 7:13, 1 chron 29:11-12, ps 35:27, ps 35:3-11, ps 37:25-26, ps 84:1-12, ps 85:12, ps 92:12-15, ps 115:11-16, prov 8:17-21, ecc 5:19, romans 8:32, James 1:17, Acts 14:17, 3 john 2. Now I haven't included those verses that included the people who followed after God in the OT. Abraham, David, Joshua, etc. all prospered b/c of God. God's word states there in black in white that He wants to prospereous us. Why? Because if we have money, then we CAN do what God wants us to do: Open orphanages in 3rd world countries, feed people, help people. We're not to use all that money just to get ourselves goodies, but to help others.
Earth, please understand I say this with the most respect, sister to brother. you listen to Hank the bible answer man, the internet, pastors and others, but do you really listen to God's word? Obviously there's more verses in the Bible that supports healing and prosperity then you know. Paul, John, Peter, and the other Jewish apostles had this stuff drilled into their heads since they were just babies as were the Jewish christians. They understood this stuff, walked it, embraced it as did the OT people. The above was a given to them, it was just how it was. Paul knew God was his provider as he said in phil 4:19. This was drilled into his head by the OT. they expected God to take care of them, make them prospereous and heal them. It was normal. yet, somewhere down the road, hundreds of years ago, someone somewhere decided to make man's ways, God's ways. So God won't heal, God won't prosper His children, God won't, won't, won't. But that's not what God's word says. :) So what will you believe? God's word, or Man's word?
yes, Jesus did say we will have tribulations, which doesn't mean poverty, but does means persecution, family troubles and even death, (in the greek it means squishing like grapes) BUT He also said, He has overcome the world. john 16:33 In other words, yes the world will try to squash you b/c of Jesus, but that doesn't negate what God said in the OT. Matthew 5:17, Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. Jesus isn't voiding what He said in the OT. It still stands for the believer. If it didn't, why didn't Paul say, sorry, guys, we're to be sick and poor the rest of our lives. Jesus negated the OT. Again, there's no verse to back this up. :)
kim
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So the passages/context of Jesus telling His followers to expect poverty, persecution, family troubles, and death because of Him are not really in the Bible?
Nowhere in Scripture is physical healing absolutely promised (for this current life) to every and all believers.
Nowhere in Scripture is material wealth absolutely promised (for this current life) to every and all believers.
Ironically, we can gander that you suffer from illness (of any sort) and you also are not rolling in the trillions.
God forbid He gave us everything we prayed for. I would have been dead a long time ago because of my short sightedness and ignorance. Praise God for the 'No's' He says to many of our prayers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/1/2008 1:45:13 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
Well, actually there are verses to back up healing and prosperity. Isaiah 53:5 says by His stripes we are healed. Now the word healed in Hebrew means healed like a physician who heals. Now who stripes? Well, the only person I know who has stripes is JEsus and I'm sure Isaiah wasn't talking about zebras.
The mantra "by his stripes we are healed" is repeated endlessly in Christian circles. However, these words extracted from Isaiah 53:5 focus on spiritual rather than physical healing.
First, a quick look at the context makes it clear that Isaiah had spiritual rather than physical healing in mind: Christ "was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed (Isaiah 53:5, NKJV, emphasis added).
Peter builds on this understanding when he writes, "He Himself bore our sins in His Body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness by His wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).
Furthermore, while healing for the body is not referred to in Isaiah 53:5, it is referred to in he verse immediately preceding it. Here Isaiah writes, "Surely He has borne our grief’s and carried our sorrows; Yet was esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted" (Isaiah 53:4), NKJV).
Physical healing here is not only clear in context, but it is affirmed by the Gospels where it is given an important qualification: "When evening came, many who were demon possessed were brought to Him, and He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases'" (Matthew 8:16-17).
Thus, the healing here was fulfilled during the ministry of Jesus Christ and does not guarantee healing today.
Finally, I should note that in a real sense Christ's atonement on the cross does extend to physical healing. One day, "there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
However, as the apostle Paul points out, "We hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently" (Romans 8:25).
In the meantime, we will all experience sickness and suffering. Indeed, those who live before Christ returns will all die of their last disease - the death rate is one per person and we're all going to make it!
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/1/2008 1:48:09 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1260
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
But that's not what they say. No one preaches have faith in your faith and treat God like a doormat. They say, have in faith in God and in His word. in fact, faith revovles around God and His word. No one says have faith in faith, in fact that doesn't make any sense at all. But they say Have faith in GOD and His word to prosper you and heal you.
Faith is nothing more than trusting God to preform His word and that's what these people teach. And how in the world can you have faith in your faith, that's impossible. Your faith MUST revolve around something and this is what they preach, faith revolving around the Word of God.
Now as for words, you've opened a whole new can of worms, :). God's word says about our words: Proverbs 18:21 says The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit. Matt 12:37 says our words justify us or condemn us. Again, it revolves around God's word. Now God says He watches over His word to perform it. Is 55:11 That's what you trust and that's what they teach. Now if you disagree, then please give me an entire transcript, not a line from a sermon that someone has twisted and changed the words to make it line up with their criticism, which I've seen folks do, but a complete sermon that says, you must have faith in your faith and not in God's word or in God. I personally don't know of anyone who preaches not to have faith in God's word or in God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Kim,
Faith in God - not faith in our faith.. or faith in our words. He is the object and creator of our faith, not One that is controlled by it like a cosmic bellhop.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/1/2008 1:54:13 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1260
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
But if you look at the Hebrew Translation it says, healed like a physician. And how can you dismiss allllllll the other verses that also say, God heals us? It's quite a list. :) God promised healing to His children. It's in there. :) If God didn't promise healing, then why are there so many verses dealing with healing?
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
Well, actually there are verses to back up healing and prosperity. Isaiah 53:5 says by His stripes we are healed. Now the word healed in Hebrew means healed like a physician who heals. Now who stripes? Well, the only person I know who has stripes is JEsus and I'm sure Isaiah wasn't talking about zebras.
The mantra "by his stripes we are healed" is repeated endlessly in Christian circles. However, these words extracted from Isaiah 53:5 focus on spiritual rather than physical healing.
First, a quick look at the context makes it clear that Isaiah had spiritual rather than physical healing in mind: Christ "was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed (Isaiah 53:5, NKJV, emphasis added).
Peter builds on this understanding when he writes, "He Himself bore our sins in His Body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness by His wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).
Furthermore, while healing for the body is not referred to in Isaiah 53:5, it is referred to in he verse immediately preceding it. Here Isaiah writes, "Surely He has borne our grief’s and carried our sorrows; Yet was esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted" (Isaiah 53:4), NKJV).
Physical healing here is not only clear in context, but it is affirmed by the Gospels where it is given an important qualification: "When evening came, many who were demon possessed were brought to Him, and He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases'" (Matthew 8:16-17).
Thus, the healing here was fulfilled during the ministry of Jesus Christ and does not guarantee healing today.
Finally, I should note that in a real sense Christ's atonement on the cross does extend to physical healing. One day, "there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
However, as the apostle Paul points out, "We hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently" (Romans 8:25).
In the meantime, we will all experience sickness and suffering. Indeed, those who live before Christ returns will all die of their last disease - the death rate is one per person and we're all going to make it!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/1/2008 2:02:00 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
But that's not what they say. No one preaches have faith in your faith
Quite a few massively popular individuals indeed have and do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
and treat God like a doormat. They say, have in faith in God and in His word. in fact, faith revovles around God and His word. No one says have faith in faith, in fact that doesn't make any sense at all. But they say Have faith in GOD and His word to prosper you and heal you.
Faith is nothing more than trusting God to preform His word and that's what these people teach. And how in the world can you have faith in your faith, that's impossible. Your faith MUST revolve around something and this is what they preach, faith revolving around the Word of God.
Now as for words, you've opened a whole new can of worms, :). God's word says about our words: Proverbs 18:21 says The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit. Matt 12:37 says our words justify us or condemn us. Again, it revolves around God's word. Now God says He watches over His word to perform it. Is 55:11 That's what you trust and that's what they teach. Now if you disagree, then please give me an entire transcript, not a line from a sermon that someone has twisted and changed the words to make it line up with their criticism, which I've seen folks do, but a complete sermon that says, you must have faith in your faith and not in God's word or in God. I personally don't know of anyone who preaches not to have faith in God's word or in God.
No doubt many believers will contend that in writing about this subject, I am doing nothing more than splitting theological hairs. Yet the extent of the controversy is not merely an honest doctrinal difference among orthodox believers; it rather entails a confrontation between the gospel preached by the Lord Jesus Christ and another gospel.
Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble, but take heart! I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). In sharp contrast, the word-faith teachers promise unlimited health and wealth to believers who can conjure up their brand of faith.
Jesus exhorted His followers not to "labor for that which perishes" but to "labor for that which is eternal" (John 6:27). The prosperity gospel, by contrast, encourages Christians to focus on what they can receive from Christ in the here and now.
Much so-called Christian TV and radio programming today panders to what peoples' "itching ears" want to hear: the promise of earthly gain.
Over and over again we hear the testimonies of businessmen who "turned on to" Jesus and saw their businesses double, or athletes whose statistics improved as a result of their faith formulas and Christ. Sacrifice and service have been traded in for self-fulfillment and self-aggrandizement. And while there is an element of reality in the message (faith is essential to effective prayer; Christ does meet our needs), sadly, the emphasis renders it merely the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.
Christ has become merely a means to an end, and believers are induced through slick Madison Avenue manipulation to come to the Master's table, not to experience fellowship and intimacy with the Master, but to enjoy what is on the Master's table. In sharp distinction to this message, the Jesus of the Scriptures is not a means to an end, He is the end (Philippians 3:7-8).
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/1/2008 2:04:16 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
But if you look at the Hebrew Translation it says, healed like a physician. And how can you dismiss allllllll the other verses that also say, God heals us? It's quite a list. :) God promised healing to His children. It's in there. :) If God didn't promise healing, then why are there so many verses dealing with healing?
God does indeed heal and praise Jesus He still does to this day! But physical healing is not promised to every single person otherwise no one you or I know or have known would have ever died. The death rate is one per person and to claim that all Christians are to be physically perfect in health is an insult to the disciples and apostles of Scripture, let alone all the countless wonderful Christians whose walk with Christ put mine to utter shame yet are handicapped or severely ill.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/4/2008 7:19:29 PM
|
|
|
hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
Hello-Dancre-Church:
Just as an aside, (and you will really know I am female now) I wanted to say, I like your outfit! its great!
And its looks like the rep. in the natural for what we have in the spiritual, our armor of God!
Of course I think our armor of God looks more like a tank or something sim.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/4/2008 7:39:39 PM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1260
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
believe non-Word of Faith types of believers may have made up that
God doesn't will for all of his people this or that, according to what
He is doing with each individual, however the biblical record doesn't
confirm this, for example, Jesus, who said of Himself that if we saw Him,
we also saw the Father, who He is, What He is Like, etc.
and Jesus never said to a single person any of the things you are saying
that you believe is the truth of the bible, ie. that God chooses to withhold
things like healing, or sustenance, or food, etc. etc.
Hey Hellochurch, this came about a loooong time ago. folks didn't receive healing or whatever from God so instead of looking into the word to figure out what it says or what to do, they used their human minds to explain away a spiritual God, which is sad. Man can't fit his square mind into God's round hole, it won't fit.
I used to be in this God may or may not heal, answer prayers, etc, world when I was in my teens, but thank God, Jesus got me out of it. My pastors back then never encouraged me to dig into the word, instead they told me, this is what you will believe, even if it wasn't in God's word. it was like, this is the answer, you will believe me and do as I say, don't question me. One thing I love about Hagin's teachings is it's teachings using the Word instead of someone telling me what to believe. But folks don't want to hear God's word b/c it doesn't fit their human minds. there are hundreds of verses in the bible that talk of God healing people and yes, it is promised, b/c it's in the bible. I've already posted lots and lots and lots of verses that promise healing to the individual. But again, it's hard to take the human mind and wrap it around a spiritual God. It wasn't until I started studying and I mean really studying the Word, that I got a revelation on God's healing, provision, etc. And no, I didn't get this from anyone, just from God's word. I got into Hagin AFTER I got my revelations from God. But folks will believe what they want to believe. Oh, well. I know what the word says and I live off of it everyday. :)
And I'm glad you like my armor guy. Thank God for His armor. Wear it everyday. :)
kim
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/5/2008 10:14:48 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Dancre,
Considering you hold Kenneth Hagin to be a preacher of God's Word... can you please join us in the official Hagin thread located HERE?
We have a discussion going about the video, written, audio evidence that Hagin adheres to false teachings and problematic claims which distort the Gospel. I look forward to seeing your responses/input in that thread, thank you.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Question About Healing - 9/7/2008 12:43:58 AM
|
|
|
Leadership
Posts: 20
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I found this, this morning, not even looking for it:
J | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
