|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 4:04:17 PM
|
|
|
jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Now that you've shown a dislike for applying principles not directly addressed in a passage, you will more than likely point to passages intended for voluntary contributions to foreign missions as the guide for all NT giving. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.
Show me a passage that proves either the tithe or the offering were always distributed locally. The truth of the matter is the tithe was many times taken outside of their own tribe.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 4:08:04 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Now that you've shown a dislike for applying principles not directly addressed in a passage, you will more than likely point to passages intended for voluntary contributions to foreign missions as the guide for all NT giving. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.
Show me a passage that proves either the tithe or the offering were always distributed locally. The truth of the matter is the tithe was many times taken outside of their own tribe.
Great point.
But the Spirit-led giving verses in the NT ONLY was mentioned for foreign missions.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 4:34:52 PM
|
|
|
jbbaab44
Posts: 555
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
But the Spirit-led giving verses in the NT ONLY was mentioned for foreign missions.
There is no verse restricting the role of the Spirit-led giving to foreign missions only. Offerings in the OT were not restricted to foreign missions. Is it easier for the Holy Spirit to lead us to give to a place we've never seen, and to people we've never met; but harder for the Holy Spirit to lead us to give our money locally?
< Message edited by jbbaab44 -- 8/20/2008 9:16:48 PM >
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:05:05 PM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
If you preach tithe, you have to preach the other 613 commandments......this is the whole law.
Anyone here teaching the tithe law?
Nope.
Good, then you should stop using Mal 3 to teach NT about tithing. Theres no tithing in NT 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:18:53 PM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
This is the problem:
quote:
Yes we should. But for some reason it bugs you that I teach the tithing principle
When you use the word tithe and link it back to OT, it is the teaching of the law of tithing. 
In the NT, theres no tithes, only cheerful giving and making sure no one in your ekklesia is lacking, including the pastors, etc
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:21:22 PM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If I teach and obey the above law must I also teach all the other laws?
Because you obey tithing is not the problem. You teach against those that say tithing is not a requirement. That's the problem.
AMEN! If you wish to tithe, tithe. Thats the freedom of law of the Spirit.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 2:21:24 AM
|
|
|
Strider33
Posts: 150
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
|
Since you mention freewill, spirit led giving, I'd like to ask you about all the income that is NOT dedicated to what might be called tithing.
In my original post, I suggested that God wants you to give ALL of it back. How does God influence the believer in the spending of all the money that is not given in tithe? And do you agree that God has a legitimate claim on all our wealth, not just 10%?
Also, I'd like your opinion about a few other things: Is money given to charities outside the local church part of the tithe? Where does one draw the line? As an example, I certainly wouldn't consider money donated to public television part of my "tithe".
(When I say "your opinion" I don't mean to start a flame war over this. Your opinion could be based on your understanding of what the Bible teaches. Or you might have other, addiotional sources of opinion.)
Also, what is the way, within freewill offering that God can bring back a believer who falls into what I'll call "cheap grace"? Is it solely based on the private interaction between God and that believer or are othe believers duty bound to correct a brother or sister that is doing wrong in this regard? If another Christian does engage in correction, how does that other Christian argue for that correction, if not be reference back to eternal principles of Biblical origin?
I'm not interested in joining one side or the other in an ongoing tug of war, but I am interested in what you think, and why.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 2:26:02 AM
|
|
|
Strider33
Posts: 150
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
|
I believe in cheerful giving. However, my local church uses the phrase "tithes and offerings". Is it your position that anyone who uses the term "tithe" is falling into some form of legalism?
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 7:52:38 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
The truth of the matter is the tithe was many times taken outside of their own tribe.
Jimbo,
I know you did not say this but it's not true. The Levites who recieved and collected the tithes were to be located throughout the land. They were to be given land for 48 cities. These men were distributed throughout the land because they were to be teaching the people in those areas the law of God.
In turn for the work for the Lord the people were to give them their tithes.
Then the Levites would take a tithe of what they had recieved to the Temple for the Priest who were seving there.
In the third year a tithe was collected that again was to be kept within the local area's city gates. The people had a great feast and the remains were given to the local poor and Levites.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 7:55:01 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
No one answered my question. Very telling. They are stuck on "money" and their desire to feel good about giving back to God less than a poor Jewish person gave living under the law.
I see a "heart problem" with this.
When the law produces more fruits than the Spirit does there is a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:07:07 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
In the NT, theres no tithes, only cheerful giving and making sure no one in your ekklesia is lacking, including the pastors, etc
Again with the cheerful. I'm not sure why you chose to call yourself prophet, but mood is not a principle of righteousness or relationship with God in the NT. No, Jesus and God's grace are the sole factors in one's righteousness and relationship with God in the NT - those are not tied to your mood or feelings or emotions, else most of us would be doomed.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:16:19 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
De 22:8
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.
This is a law. Do any of you who don't believe the law is for us today believe it's wrong for me to teach the above passage in both it's practical and spiritural terms?
If I do would you ask me if it's a requirement?
If I teach and obey the above law must I also teach all the other laws?
_________
Here is the questions again.
I have another question to add.
If I teach the above passage would it cause you to set up a website dedicated to saying it was wrong to obey that principle?
Would you spend thousands of hours of your life telling people how wrong I and the Chruches I attend who teach the above principle is wrong and how much damage we cause?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:31:52 AM
|
|
|
Strider33
Posts: 150
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
|
I feel the need to criticize my own first entry in this thread. That entry was pretty well received, and I'm grateful for that. But here's what's wrong:
quote:
As far as the "cheerfulness" subtopic goes, you should figure out how much you ought to give. Give that much. And do it cheerfully. If you can't give that much cheerfully, work on your attitude. If you can't fix your attitude yourself, pray.
The problem is that the word "pray" is at the tail end. I'm guessing that I did that for rhetorical emphasis. There's nothing wrong with rhetorical emphasis as such. The problem I have with my own words is that, followed literally, they are bad advice.
Too many new believers, and a few old believers, fall into the habit of praying as a last resort. When faced with a new challenge, they try everything they know to solve the problem on their own. When things work out ok, all well and good. When all else fails, they pray. This practice results in a lot of unnecessary suffering.
So, if there is anybody out there who is about to follow this plan, let me give a better plan. Pray first. Bring the matter of what you should be giving, and why, before the Lord. Then, while being attentive to God's response to you, consult scripture. Try to read each scripture in context, so you will know what it's really saying, and see how it applies to your circumstance today. Then, and only then, "figure out what you should be giving". If you still end up with an attitude problem go back and pray again.
But don't omit praying at the very beginning.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:36:04 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
I feel the need to criticize my own first entry in this thread. That entry was pretty well received, and I'm grateful for that. But here's what's wrong:
quote:
As far as the "cheerfulness" subtopic goes, you should figure out how much you ought to give. Give that much. And do it cheerfully. If you can't give that much cheerfully, work on your attitude. If you can't fix your attitude yourself, pray.
The problem is that the word "pray" is at the tail end. I'm guessing that I did that for rhetorical emphasis. There's nothing wrong with rhetorical emphasis as such. The problem I have with my own words is that, followed literally, they are bad advice.
Too many new believers, and a few old believers, fall into the habit of praying as a last resort. When faced with a new challenge, they try everything they know to solve the problem on their own. When things work out ok, all well and good. When all else fails, they pray. This practice results in a lot of unnecessary suffering.
So, if there is anybody out there who is about to follow this plan, let me give a better plan. Pray first. Bring the matter of what you should be giving, and why, before the Lord. Then, while being attentive to God's response to you, consult scripture. Try to read each scripture in context, so you will know what it's really saying, and see how it applies to your circumstance today. Then, and only then, "figure out what you should be giving". If you still end up with an attitude problem go back and pray again.
But don't omit praying at the very beginning.
That's exactly how I arrived at beginning with a tithe - prayer and reading the Word! That meager start also began a very fruitful journey.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:47:24 AM
|
|
|
Strider33
Posts: 150
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
|
Jimbo,
I agree with your caution against letting mood or emotion be the driver for relationship with God. There is a lot of that going around, and it does do a lot of damage. But we need to acknowledge that cheerfulness does enter into the picture.
quote:
2 Corinthians 9:7 NIV
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Are you objecting to the focus on "cheerfulness" because it could be obstacle to some people giving? As I understand the above verse, the giving comes first. The cheerfulness is an outcome, not a precondition.
And others might have a different opinion than mine about whether this passage applies to all giving or just the particular kind of giving that Paul is talking about here.
I think that the above illustrates a general Biblical principle, namely that manner and attitude are as important as action.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:56:22 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Are you objecting to the focus on "cheerfulness" because...
I'm not objecting to cheerfulness but to its misapplication.
Paul was trying to encourage the people to give what they had already promised but had, thus far, failed to produce. They likely promised cheerfully but were not cheerfully performing their vow.
It's a contrast between their intention and their performance.
It's not a global command to be built into doctrine.
To me, that passage teaches more than the single phrase. It teaches that God loves cheerful giving equally as He loves cheerful promises. In brief, God desires obedience above religiosity (or lame sacrifices in the OT).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 9:09:05 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
As I understand the above verse, the giving comes first. The cheerfulness is an outcome, not a precondition.
Well you go Strider33. I have never viewed it in that light. For me the sentence "God loves a Cheerful giver" is just a statement of fact.
Yes unfortunately there are people on this thread who believe it they cannot give with a cheerful heart it's better not to give at all and go out to eat on that money or buy their dog a new chew toy.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 9:12:08 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Paul was trying to encourage the people to give what they had already promised but had, thus far, failed to produce. They likely promised cheerfully but were not cheerfully performing their vow.
Glad you remined me of the "whole context" of that passage. You are correct. They had run their mouths and said they would give these gifts but when it came time for them to really give the money they were holding back.
Paul had to send people on before him to ensure they would collect the promised/vowed money.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 9:15:14 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
2 Corinthians 8 - Study This Chapter
1 And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2 Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4 they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. 5 And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will. 6 So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part.
7 But just as you excel in everything--in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us--see that you also excel in this grace of giving. 8 I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others.
The above passage is "spirit filled giving". Notice it was out of their overflow of Joy in thei extreme poverty they pleaded to for the PRIVILEDGE of giving and they gave ABOVE their means.
The key for is verse 5 and who they gave themselves to.
Notice what Paul is doing to test the "senserity of their love"......
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:10:03 PM
|
|
|
sunofone
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
De 22:8
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.
This is a law. Do any of you who don't believe the law is for us today believe it's wrong for me to teach the above passage in both it's practical and spiritural terms?
If I do would you ask me if it's a requirement?
If I teach and obey the above law must I also teach all the other laws?
_________
Here is the questions again.
I have another question to add.
If I teach the above passage would it cause you to set up a website dedicated to saying it was wrong to obey that principle?
Would you spend thousands of hours of your life telling people how wrong I and the Chruches I attend who teach the above principle is wrong and how much damage we cause?
I can only speak for myself here.I would object to you or anyone teaching any law for commandment sake.If as you say,you were teaching this particular law,or any other law for it's practical or spiritual application,I would have no problem with it.
Personally I just like to know what I'm doing and why.A visiting preacher said the other Sunday that if you were not tithing you need to offer God a peace offering,and then you can start tithing from that point forward.
Important to note is his saying that all five offerings are still valid for today,and that the peace offering must be paid,for robbing God before God would honor you tithing.
This is the slippery slope,I feel teaching the law or tithes as a practice gets into.I think a lot of web sites are up debunking tithes,simply for scriptural integrity.There are of course exceptions to the rule,and those who are stingy,or weak in faith that seek to end tithing for their own financial gain.
As for me I just want to know what God is saying,and what he expects from me.If he requires or even wants the tithe,then I'll do it cheerfully or otherwise.If he does not than I want to be able to go to any church in the world but most especially here in America,and not be singled out as a God robber.
I'm very frustrated concerning this issue,because it separates me from the sweet fellowship of my brothers in Christ.I'm saddened that we can't have consensus on this subject.
I know we as a body don't have consensus on many doctrines,but this one hits closer to home for me,because it affects my fellowship with the Saints.It affects how they receive me,and it keeps me at an uncomfortable distance from them.
There is also a separate issue here concerning tithes, which is sound financial principles,practices and discipline.Many Saints who struggle with tithe,do so at a point when money is tight,or if like the young rich ruler they have much.
In most cases it's the former.In moments of financial crisis people begin to question just how much does God want me to give?
I'm not one who struggles with tithes because of financial constraints.I'm neither rich,nor poor,although I live a little closer to the dollar then I would like.
My struggle with tithes as it is taught in the circles I'm familiar with, is accepting that God expects me to tithe.I just don't see it.I can see the value in tithing,because we're talking about giving,and not just here's a few dollars I can get by without spending,but intentional giving.
I can see the benefit of giving back to God what he has graciously given to us.I just believe that what God wants from me now is a 100% awareness and attitude.
I believe he wants me to acknowledge him in all my ways,including my finances.I don't believe he wants me to set aside 10% as if that's his and the 90% is mine.
I believe since I know that 100% is his,he expects me to be a good steward over it all.That for me does not mean that God becomes an after thought in my giving.
I don't believe that I am to get increase,use it to satisfy my desires/needs and then if I have something left over I'll give God some.I think that is totally unacceptable.
My wife and I don't tithe,but we set aside a portion of our income in an account each time we get paid, which is used exclusively for giving. Our giving is not based on feelings or leftovers or percentages.This may sound corny,but we let the spirit speak to us.We give from that account even if we have to swear to our own lack or desire and change not.
My desire is to give well above 10% of my earnings,yet I don't as of now make that a goal or a mark.I just give cheerfully as the Lord has prospered me.
So I don't take issue with you or anyone who teaches the value of God's word OT or New.I take issue with anyone who would teach that God requires or expects me to be subject to the law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:18:15 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
.I think a lot of web sites are up debunking tithes,simply for scriptural integrity.
Sorry but if you visit those sites you will find they don't really know much about scripture at all. Even the poster here who has his own site stated over and over again that the Preist of the Most High God (according to scripture) was probably a pagan priest that we had no way of knowing.
Most of those sites are created by individuals who are simply off their rocker.
99% of those sites have as their main focus not Christ but money and the tithe. Most also defame the Chruch and Christian leaders.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:22:39 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
My desire is to give well above 10% of my earnings
If that is your true desire then why don't you act upon it?
Ps 40:8
I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."
Notice that the law is written on our hearts. David was a man after God's own heart. Have you ever considered that the desire of your heart comes from the law written on it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:32:20 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
...as the Lord has prospered me.
Even when I didn't believe in tithing as having anything to do with me, I always considered it the fairest way to insure a person gave "as the Lord has prospered" them. A tenth of a dollar for the young is a dime. A tenth of $100,000 for the well-to-do is $10,000. But, as the Lord has prospered them, it's still the same relative amount.
Practically speaking, if I can't give 10% of a dollar, I would still find reason not to be able to give 10% of $100,000 or even $1,000,000.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
