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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 5:17:02 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Jesus draws all to Himself,
"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:32
Actually, it looks like the Father draws only some.
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:43-44
Why would Jesus say "No one comes to me unless the Father draws him" if all men are actually drawn to him? And in this verse it says that all who are drawn are raised up at the last day. So all are saved? Well, both of us don't believe that. Yet helko (draw) is used in both passages.
RU, you can't just cite the verses that support your notions and act as if the others don't exist, you actually have to work to resolve the tension between them and those verses that threaten your view.
quote:
No one deserves salvation. It is a gift of God for those who neither deserve it nor have earned it. If you are in Christ it is because you humbled yourself and accepted His free gift of His Son.
This is a contradiction. You can't say that salvation is unearned and then say it came about because "you humbled yourself and accepted His free gift..." If I do the humbling and accepting, then I have something to boast about by works.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/16/2008 5:25:27 PM >
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 5:29:06 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
No one deserves salvation. It is a gift of God for those who neither deserve it nor have earned it. If you are in Christ it is because you humbled yourself and accepted His free gift of His Son. I really don’t want to get in the way of the OP but you are contradicting yourself here. Either a person earns his salvation by doing something for it, or they don’t earn it and it is a gift, hence the definition of Grace: unmerited favor.
Some one neither deserves something nor earns something, yet they are ‘in Christ’ BECAUSE THEY HUMBLED THEMSELVES? That tells me that they did earn it in at least one way.
Edit: Sorry... looks like Conquerd has already caught this an beat me to the post.
< Message edited by justajerk -- 5/16/2008 5:36:09 PM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 5:47:39 PM
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Kath
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 6:36:55 PM
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FREELUTH
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I know I have posted this article on here many times. It really does have the Biblical answer to why some and not others.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.whysome.html
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 6:57:38 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
No one deserves salvation. It is a gift of God for those who neither deserve it nor have earned it. If you are in Christ it is because you humbled yourself and accepted His free gift of His Son.
This is a contradiction. You can't say that salvation is unearned and then say it came about because "you humbled yourself and accepted His free gift..." If I do the humbling and accepting, then I have something to boast about by works.
If you consider humbling yourself by accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ as a work, I guess you could have something to boost about. But I believe that would be a stretch.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 7:03:51 PM
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meerkat
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All the passages that are being quoted are true, but people are assuming that Gods' mercy is limited by our free will and our physical death and his wrath is unlimited.
If you read 1 Cor 15:22-28 without trying to cut things out of it or putting interpretations into it it says that God is going to reconcile all to himself THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no other way for salvation. Also it shows that those that choose Christ in this life (or are chosen by God) are part of the first resurrection. Submitting to Jesus is not limited to this life 1 Cor 15:28 clearly states that when all things are subdued (obedient, subjected to him) he will then deliver the kingdom to his Father that God can be All in All (Spiritual not of the flesh - All flesh has perished, been destroyed - I believe that is the works of the devil ). This happens after those that are in Christ are raised and is why they are preists and kings - Kings and priests have things to do they don't just sit around playing harps and saying how wonderful God is by tormenting there relatives. We are all sinners - God has mercy on all but the mercy only applies when they are obedient, wrath remains until belief.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
God does send delusion to those who do not accept the truth. I trust in Jesus saving all those he died for.
Conquered and Justajerk is it the wrath of God and the conviction of the Spirit that humbles us and not us humbling ourselves? We may feel humble but we haven't done it to ourselves. When I felit the conviction of the Spirit of my need of salvation it certainly wasn't me that the was humbling myself.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 7:33:12 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
Conquered and Justajerk is it the wrath of God and the conviction of the Spirit that humbles us and not us humbling ourselves? We may feel humble but we haven't done it to ourselves. When I felit the conviction of the Spirit of my need of salvation it certainly wasn't me that the was humbling myself.
Yes and Amen!
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 7:35:27 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
I'm more humble than Conquered.
...well, maybe not, But I know I'm more humble than those dummies who haven't accepted Jesus! (Please don't take this seriously, but do you get the point?)
Very well put! It is rather self-evident that self-humiliation is self-defeated.
Okay, I'll stop too....
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 7:39:10 PM
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meerkat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
I'm more humble than Conquered.
...well, maybe not, But I know I'm more humble than those dummies who haven't accepted Jesus! (Please don't take this seriously, but do you get the point?)
Very well put! It is rather self-evident that self-humiliation is self-defeated.
Okay, I'll stop too....
Very well put though ............ Self righteousness is not righteous in God's sight.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 7:46:03 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Yes, I get the point. But lets not forget the OP, and the sister who is seeking help.
Okay?
Peace
Okay, but I think Eph 4:32 may have been very politely setting us up. Not that she doesn't have genuine, deep concerns for her family, mind you. I can see that she does. But that she was using her situation to help stimulate a necessary discussion about who God is and how we relate to him. Some do not think that topics such as this one are worth discussion, but really how we view God and understand him is crucial to our belief of him and says much about what we believe. Remember she did title this thread...
Is God trying to save all sinners.
That suggests that if he tries and fails, he is not all-powerful. If we believe that he is all-powerful, then we need to conclude that he does not try to save all sinners.
Nevertheless, I think we've (you and I, anyway) stayed on course here because everything we've discussed has related to her question.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 8:10:56 PM
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meerkat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
1 Timothy 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Some people say that God won't send them to hell because they aren't bad people. These people believe that at the end of their lives, there will be more good on the scale than bad, and therefore they will be saved. I have at least one relative who believes this. Is God trying to save this person?
Ephesians,
God will save all but it is not anything to do with anyones "goodness" or "badness" it is the gift of God through Jesus Christ. As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive Adam = flesh Christ = Spirit The flesh will be destroyed either now or at the end. All will live in the Spirit. The purpose of being a christian is to be a witness of the love of God, while we were yet sinners he loved us. How will anyone know unless they are told/shown. Our witness is love God and loving neighbours as ourselves. It is said that actions speak louder than words and is so true, when a christian sins it is fobbed off as being human, however the point of being God's witnesses is to live in the Spirit and to be led of the Spirit.
Your mother has probably been having God shoved down her throat by selfrighteous people who think that witnessing is telling people about Christ rather than showing them, and told of a vengeful God who will torment her forever if she does not believe in him. If we were told that Satan had said that we would say how evil it was. But because God supposedly said it, it is just.
This probably sounds harsher than I intend, the reason for that is when I was growing up it was in a pentecostal environment where I could see the hypocrisy and it instilled in me a deep aversion to selfrighteousness and it couldn't answer my questions about seeming inconsistencies in the bible - it has taken me many years to realise that submitting to and following Christ is not about religion and accepting doctrines and logically understanding the bible without the Spirit and also not trying to use the Spirit to confirm any preconceived ideas (the Spirit leads, we follow).
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 8:45:24 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meerkat
Conquered and Justajerk is it the wrath of God and the conviction of the Spirit that humbles us and not us humbling ourselves? We may feel humble but we haven't done it to ourselves. When I felit the conviction of the Spirit of my need of salvation it certainly wasn't me that the was humbling myself.
And I would also add to that, the awesome wonder and amazement at His glorious grace poured out on undeserving wretches. Amen!
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved"
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 9:16:04 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
How can God or I convince her that it is?
God saves, you do not. What you can do is believe and follow the instructions of the bible. Honor your mother. Love her. Live Christ so she can see Him in you ( Die to self so Christ may live in you )
My dad came to Christ at 67....anything is possible.
quote:
The choice that we all must make is will we accept life [in the person of Jesus Christ] or will we continue in the [dead] state in which we already are.
Impossible without God. You cannot choose God without Him. All glory is His. Our part, if any, is infintismally ( sp if it even is a word ) small and wholly dependant on God.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
People will be sent to hell by God and people don't want to hear that.
God doesn't need to send anyone to hell, they are headed there already.
Who created hell?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 9:48:02 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
I know I have posted this article on here many times. It really does have the Biblical answer to why some and not others.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.whysome.html
I looked it up.
Timotheus Kirchner: “Since faith in Christ, now, is a special gift of God, why does He not bestow it on all? We reply: We should reserve the discussion of this question until life eternal, and should meanwhile rest satisfied that God will not have us seek out His secret judgments (Rom. 11): ‘O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments!’” (Enchiridion, p. 143.)
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.whysome.html
Okay....I have no problem with God's sovereignity or his choosing certain people to be saved. But if someone tells me that He's trying to save everyone, but some are too proud to be saved and others are not too proud, I see that God didn't change the proud person and he did change the humble person. Aren't we all condemned until God changes us? Does God try to save my mother and then He just gives up? Why must He try to save her and then fail at doing so?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:04:03 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
How can God or I convince her that it is?
God saves, you do not. What you can do is believe and follow the instructions of the bible. Honor your mother. Love her. Live Christ so she can see Him in you ( Die to self so Christ may live in you )
My dad came to Christ at 67....anything is possible.
I know that anything is possible. But first you say that God saves and I do not. Then you tell me what I can do. I love God and I've honored my parents, I think. My father never became a Christian. I couldn't change him. He considered me a failure because I didn't go to college. He told my son that those who don't go to college are losers. No matter how kind I was, no matter what I did, I was a loser in his book. Honoring my father and living for Christ and trying to be a good wife to my husband and a good mother to my children didn't save me from being considered a loser. People seem to have no concept of my parents' views. People here are not understanding that my parents and siblings have never been impressed by Christian behavior, Christian beliefs, or Christians.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ???
The choice that we all must make is will we accept life [in the person of Jesus Christ] or will we continue in the [dead] state in which we already are.
People who are dead spiritually can't accept Christ. My family thinks he was a nice teacher, not a Savior. My mother and siblings are spiritually dead. There is absolutely no fear of God before their eyes.
< Message edited by Ephesians4_32 -- 5/16/2008 10:10:08 PM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:09:05 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
Yes, I get the point. But lets not forget the OP, and the sister who is seeking help.
Okay?
Peace
Okay, but I think Eph 4:32 may have been very politely setting us up. Not that she doesn't have genuine, deep concerns for her family, mind you. I can see that she does. But that she was using her situation to help stimulate a necessary discussion about who God is and how we relate to him. Some do not think that topics such as this one are worth discussion, but really how we view God and understand him is crucial to our belief of him and says much about what we believe. Remember she did title this thread...
Is God trying to save all sinners.
That suggests that if he tries and fails, he is not all-powerful. If we believe that he is all-powerful, then we need to conclude that he does not try to save all sinners.
Nevertheless, I think we've (you and I, anyway) stayed on course here because everything we've discussed has related to her question.
How does one politely set people up? A set-up, by definition, is devious in nature.
I surely hope you are not correct in your assessment of our dear sister. 
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:12:40 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_3
People who are dead spiritually can't accept Christ.
If that were true, then none could be saved.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:15:23 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1687
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meerkat
Your mother has probably been having God shoved down her throat by selfrighteous people who think that witnessing is telling people about Christ rather than showing them, and told of a vengeful God who will torment her forever if she does not believe in him. If we were told that Satan had said that we would say how evil it was. But because God supposedly said it, it is just.
My mother was raised in a very liberal environment and I doubt if she ran into many people who talked about hell. Her parents thought people were Christians if they were born of non-Jewish, non-Asian parents. I can't begin to tell you how liberal my grandparents were. My grandmother, who was born around 1907, had an abortion during the Depression. Is that liberal? Furthermore, my mother had very little social life. We didn't have friends over. She didn't have friends over and her children weren't allowed to have friends over.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:20:06 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1687
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_3
People who are dead spiritually can't accept Christ.
If that were true...
It is true!
1 Corinthians 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:33:22 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_3
People who are dead spiritually can't accept Christ.
If that were true...
It is true!
1 Corinthians 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
So, the spiritually dead have no hope I guess. Oh well, so much for God being all powerful.
It would appear you do already have your answers.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 10:44:12 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1687
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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I just want some real answers. IF God tries to save all as some people say He does, why does He fail? IF some people are proud and others aren't, didn't God make them in the first place? How can a sinful person, totally unregenerated, not be proud? How can he not be ignorant of spiritual things?
Have you ever talked to a brick wall? What does the wall understand? I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall when I talk to my family.
Jesus instructed His apostles to go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)
Yet, he also said, "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." (Matthew 10:14).
If our family members don't want to hear about God, how many years should we try to talk to them? My siblings didn't grow up hearing about God or hell. There were no bedtime prayers, there was no grace before meals, there was no church on Sunday, there was no preacher listened to on the radio or on television.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/16/2008 11:47:45 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 2586
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: The little house in the prairie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I just want some real answers. IF God tries to save all as some people say He does, why does He fail?
He doesn't fail. God cannot create men who have the freedom to love or reject HIm and not allow them the consequences of their decision. That's not consistent with His character. Being all powerful doesn't mean He can do anything He pleases. He is still bound by His character which about goodness, but also about justice. It would be like our justice system saying anyone who kills will go to jail but not sending killers to jail because the judge doesn't feel like it. It doesn't work that way with God.
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