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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/27/2008 2:34:21 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 558
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
After reading all these comments by "Christians" I now understand Mahatma Gandhi when he said, "I would have been a Christian, except for the Christians."
1John 4:8 Whoever is not loving does not know God, because God is love.
And I leave you with a corollary to that scriptural truth, though few of you see it: If you believe that someone could know God and reject Him, then YOU do not know God - yet. But He has promised that you will - ALL of you.
Peace to you. Jim
I wouldnt really care about things people like Ghandi would say but he in his lack of understanding he was refering to church members and not christians..the latter are much fewer in number btw...Christians are the light of the world no matter how wretchedthey may be because the light is not from themselves but from God himself.
BTW,Ghandi would not have been a christian but just among the many church members.His salvation does not lie with men but with only the mercy of God.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/28/2008 12:57:07 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Well now, that is your doctrine, how could you possibly believe anything else?
Actually, I used to believe as you did UR, for over 20 years, until God opened my eyes to the truth found in his Word.
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Now you have unhitched your hobby horse and are trampling the truth under its feet. Christ's shed blood on the cross has provided the forgiveness of sins. If you do not understand that forgiveness is in Christ, how can you ever understand that life is in Christ also?
My faith is not a hobby. Forgiveness is in Christ. You know that I don't deny this UR so it's dishonest of you to insinuate that I do.
But forgivness is not just in Chirst but of Christ and from Christ, comes only by Christ and through Chirst. You don't see this and that is why you don't understand what the Scriptures teach regarding salvation in relation to forgiveness. This is why you deny that those who are forgiven of all their sins are also given eternal life, and this is why you can't show Scripture to defend your indefensible view.
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Being a forgiven unbeliever does not help a person in the least.
There is no such thing as a forgiven unbeliever, at least in the present tense of the term, because only a believer is forgiven of all their sins.
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Being a forgiven Believer does wonders for a person now and for eternity.
Agreed. The bondage of oppressive sin is broken, the gift of eternal life is given to them on account that Jesus has washed all their sins away. The unbeliever dies in their sins, all of them.
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I did not say unbelief is not forgiven, I said unbelief doesn't need to be forgiven, it needs to be corrected.
If unbelief does not need to be forgiven, then it is not a sin. Unbelief is the sin of sins. If you are not forgiven for unbelief you are not forgiven for anything. We are just not reformed when we come to Jesus, we are transformed.
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As I said before, you have made the accepting of a gift into a work, which is to go beyond even the Pharisees
How can I accept something that I did not choose?
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee. -Charles Wesley
quote:
What Scripture says is that IN Christ is forgiveness of sins and eternal life...that IN Him is salvation. What Scripture says is that we receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life, which is salvation, when we receive HIM. We are not saved by accepting what Christ did for us, we are saved by accepting Him. We do not worship a dead savior, but a risen living Lord!
So Christ is dead to you if he chooses you rather than you choosing him? Wow. Anyway, half the New Testament stands against the false gospel you've put forward here, UR.
Just for example:
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace. -Ephesians 1:7
I suppose now you'll say that redemption doesn't have salvific implications or that the him isn't Jesus.
Yet where is the verse that says that there are "forgiven unbelievers."
quote:
Sir, Gods wrath is not unjustified. He is not angry because He is a God of wrath and hate. There is a reason for His wrath.
I didn't say that God was a "God of wrath and hate" nor did I say his wrath was unjustified. I asked you a question that you completely avoided.
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. - Romans 2:6-8
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/28/2008 1:19:14 AM >
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/28/2008 8:09:00 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
Well now, that is your doctrine, how could you possibly believe anything else?
Actually, I used to believe as you did UR, for over 20 years, until God opened my eyes to the truth found in his Word.
And I 'used' to believe as you until God opened my eyes to the truth found in The Living Word.
As I have said before, greater minds than ours have debated this over many many years. In the end it is something that cannot be realized by natural logic, but only through Theo-logic. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to illuminate.
Although God cannot act contrary to His own absolute character, He can choose not to act. Such Self-limitation is obvious in God’s creation of the rational and volitional choosing creatures of humanity. Choosing not to impose Himself upon man, He chose to limit and not use His power to act, in order to allow man to have a freely chosen faith-love relationship with Himself.
That's how the cookie crumbles for me.
Peace my friend
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/28/2008 12:23:34 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
And I 'used' to believe as you until God opened my eyes to the truth found in The Living Word.
As I have said before, greater minds than ours have debated this over many many years. In the end it is something that cannot be realized by natural logic, but only through Theo-logic. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to illuminate.
Although God cannot act contrary to His own absolute character, He can choose not to act. Such Self-limitation is obvious in God’s creation of the rational and volitional choosing creatures of humanity. Choosing not to impose Himself upon man, He chose to limit and not use His power to act, in order to allow man to have a freely chosen faith-love relationship with Himself.
That's how the cookie crumbles for me.
UR,
Do you see your own contradiction in the above statement?
So what if the Holy Spirit does not illuminate? Then the individual will be unable to see… Blind. *period*
You say that God does not impose Himself upon man, yet man is blind without God imposing Himself upon man… kind of confusing no?
Man is unable to see this choice you talk about; in fact he is spiritually dead, he has no desire to choose because as far as he is concerned there is no choice that needs to be made. In the same way that man is unable to will his own natural birth, he has no say in his spiritual re-birth.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/28/2008 12:33:10 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
How can I accept something that I did not choose?
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee. -Charles Wesley Amazing irony that Conquered would choose the hymn "And Can It Be" written by the brother of the greatest Arminian theologian of all time, John Wesley to support unconditional election, limited Atonement, and irresistible grace!
Actually, Conquered, Rev Wesley was specifically referring to prevenient grace in the phrase "thine eye diffused a quickening ray" which then allowed the lost person to awake to the truth of God's grace. The act of waking up, of realizing our depravity, of seeing the hopelessness of any personal effort to gain salvation is NOT a works-based faith. But it is an absolute requirement for salvation as the Wesleys preached for decades. All who are saved by grace, through faith, must wake up, rise up, and follow the Author and Perfecter of their faith.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/28/2008 1:44:32 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Actually, Conquered, Rev Wesley was specifically referring to prevenient grace in the phrase "thine eye diffused a quickening ray" which then allowed the lost person to awake to the truth of God's grace. The act of waking up, of realizing our depravity, of seeing the hopelessness of any personal effort to gain salvation is NOT a works-based faith. But it is an absolute requirement for salvation as the Wesleys preached for decades. All who are saved by grace, through faith, must wake up, rise up, and follow the Author and Perfecter of their faith.
I'm sure Conquered will have his own say here, but I would like to ask you what choice you make in 'waking up'.
I hear people say that they would like to die in their sleep so that they just go without knowing it... So I, going from my own expereince (as I cannot speak for others in this matter) do not recall willing myself to awake every morning. It just happens or, if I want to make sure I do get up at a certain time, must bring in some outside influence such as an alarm clock.
In much the same way, the analogy of ‘waking up’ to a truth is one of a thought or realization coming out of nowhere: “it just hit me…” or, “…all of a sudden I just knew it to be true”.
Just a thought.
< Message edited by justajerk -- 5/28/2008 2:36:51 PM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/28/2008 11:46:06 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11689
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
It is clear that this thread was begun in an effort to by-pass the one-stop thread on Calvinism. Do not do that again.
Reading this thread should make it clear why Calvinism has a one-stop thread, as participants on both sides lack the discretion to discuss this in a reasonable manner.
I am ashamed of the behavior in this thread.
I apologize for not closing it on page one.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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