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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/7/2008 11:46:51 PM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I did a search on this over priced piece of leather and it's quite interesting what I found. There's even a book out there about this bag.
*shudder*
That's a little scary. I mean... It's a bag, heh.
Now, I'm not going to say that it's inherently sinful to own one (or indeed, any high-class item). I think what counts is the heart-attitude of the owner, and how they use it. I mean, Joseph of Aramathea (sp?) certainly had a pretty expensive tomb, but look at the awesome way it ended up being used.
I think the most important thing to remember in questions like this is that everything we have comes from one place - God. And seeing as how's that's the case, everything we have should be used for one person's glory - God's. What does that look like? It will vary from person to person. One thing for sure, though - it does not look like spending exorbitant amounts of money filling empty wants while ignoring the needs of those around you.
There's nothing wrong with nice things but from what I've read the designer has made a killing by the way he's marketed the purse to be so hard to get that it has been one of *the* status symbols of the wealthy. Personally I think they are ugly and a big waste of money. There isn't anything about the purse that makes it worth $20,000 other than marketing and hype.
Who in their right mind would pay $12,500 for the bright orange one? 
http://www.luxwear.com/bagsbirkin35x.htm
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 6:31:58 AM
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car2ner
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I saw some soft sided fabric purses in Sam's Club last Christmas. They were in a glass case and priced about $150. EEEK. I thought even that was ridiculous! I think it was because of the label. Yesterday I had a chat with some students about this. One asked me if I had any ___________? I didn't even know what it was. He told me it was a clothing maker and I told him, I never buy clothes because of the name on them. I buy clothes because they fit, feel good, good price, good quality, but not because of the name. For instance, the big fad of wearing Baby Phat.... EGADS.
Put the words Baby Phat on something and the price goes up becuase now it is cool. And it is not just the rich buying this brand.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 7:45:20 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3003
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quote:
WhiteRoseBlessings
Lot of planks in this thread.
That was the exact verse that came to my mind when I read the OP's post. This person I believe cannot see properly to get the splinter out of the other people's eyes because there is a huge plank in their own. I also see that plank in some posters on this thread. They enjoy judging people they don't even know.
I just spend three days with a person who "lumped" entire groups of people that way and stereotyped them. For me that's a sad way to view people and a sad way to live. They look at the world through some fog of jealousy and bitterness. (Reminds me of Jeremiah Wright)
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 7:52:41 AM
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P31W
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quote:
We are suppose to tithes, help the poor, but there is never gonna be a justification for 8 $20,000.00 purses.
Says who? Are you God?
There is justification in scripture according to God for a woman having a bottle of perfume that cost in today's currency $65,000.00.
I am sure there were many who gossiped about Mary and her bottle of perfume that was extremely expensive. After all there were MANY MANY poor people all around her at that time that she could be feeding. But she did not. She CHOSE to buy the expensive perfume.
Matthew 26:6-13
6 Meanwhile, Jesus was in Bethany at the home of Simon, a man who had leprosy. 7 During supper, a woman came in with a beautiful jar F144 of expensive perfume and poured it over his head. 8 The disciples were indignant when they saw this. "What a waste of money," they said. 9 "She could have sold it for a fortune and given the money to the poor." 10 But Jesus replied, "Why berate her for doing such a good thing to me? 11 You will always have the poor among you, but I will not be here with you much longer. 12 She has poured this perfume on me to prepare my body for burial. 13 I assure you, wherever the Good News is preached throughout the world, this woman's deed will be talked about in her memory."
Who would have dreamed back then when she purchased that expensive perfume that it was all part of GOD"s Plan. Even Jesus closest followers were "indignant".
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/8/2008 8:13:46 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 7:57:49 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Put the words Baby Phat on something and the price goes up becuase now it is cool. And it is not just the rich buying this brand.
I have many wealthy friends. Some worth hundreds of millions of dollars. They don't tend to buy expensive purses or others things such as this that goes down in value. That's one reason they are weatlhy...they buy value.
For the most part the people I know who make average or below average incomes are the one's who buy this designer stuff inorder to try to make others beleive they are something they are not. Wealthy folks more times than not have nothing to "prove" and so they don't try or even care. If they really like something they will buy it. If not they won't buy "just" to have status.
If I had to guess the vast majority of Baby Phat's customers are middle class folks. Many wealthy people are "given" Baby Phat products for free inorder to make working people desire them.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/8/2008 8:05:47 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:11:45 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
I have many wealthy friends. Some worth hundreds of millions of dollars. They don't tend to buy expensive purses or others things such as this that goes down in value. That's one reason they are weatlhy...they buy value.
For the most part the people I know who make average or below average incomes are the one's who buy this designer stuff inorder to try to make others beleive they are something they are not. Wealthy folks more times than not have nothing to "prove" and so they don't try or even care. If they really like something they will buy it. If not they won't buy "just" to have status.
They probably don't send out mass emails announcing the arrival of their purchases as if it's a new member of the family and write blogs about them either. Most are more than likely discreet. To me that is where the crux of the OP's question really lies.
< Message edited by StephK -- 5/8/2008 8:19:01 AM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:43:23 AM
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P31W
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quote:
They probably don't send out mass emails announcing the arrival of their purchases as if it's a new member of the family and write blogs about them either. Most are more than likely discreet. To me that is where the crux of the OP's question really lies.
You have a good point there. For me I always feel sorry for people who are like that. I don't get jealous I feel pity for them. I view them as having very low self esteem.
quote:
You had the break the bottle to get the nard out. It wasn't something you bought and used up and then bought more--it was an investment. It was a way of storing a lot of money. A comparison might be putting your money in stocks. It was worth a year's wages.
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After it was broken, you couldn't spend it again. Like tearing up a hundred dollar bill, it was "wasted", which is why the disciples were indignant.
That's the way I understand it as well. I came up with the $65K figure from a stat I just read saying the average american household earned 65K and paid 13K in income taxes.
quote:
It's also interesting how much money was spent building the tabernacle and the temple. People gave many freewill offerings to God, so much gold and silver that they had to be commanded to stop giving. The square foot cost of the tabernacle was in the millions.
I always think about that alot too. Putting the two passages together has me thinking that "doing for God" is not ONLY feeding the poor. It may not be the number one thing when it comes to our money.
I think the number one thing....top priority is that we help people hear the good news of Jesus Christ. For me feeding the poor is a secondary activity.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/8/2008 8:50:13 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:48:45 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Who in their right mind would pay $12,500 for the bright orange one?
http://www.luxwear.com/bagsbirkin35x.htm
_____________________________
Stephanie
Stephanie,
You know what is funny to me? I just picture one of my friends telling me they paid $20K for an ugly purse and me telling them they are stupid!!! LOL I KNOW I would tell them that it was stupid.
I would even be laughing. But i would not run to the elders of my church to tell them that my friends was "in sin". "IN SANE" maybe....but not in sin.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:53:14 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
You have a good point there. For me I always feel sorry for people who are like that. I don't get jealous I feel pity for them. I view them as having very low self esteem.
Me too. I do see the point the OP was making that she was leery of inviting people to church and perhaps it has more to do with the attitude toward the things more than the actual things. It can be a hindrance. I've been a member of a wealthy church where everyone was welcomed and made comfortable.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:56:35 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2341
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Who in their right mind would pay $12,500 for the bright orange one?
http://www.luxwear.com/bagsbirkin35x.htm
_____________________________
Stephanie
Stephanie,
You know what is funny to me? I just picture one of my friends telling me they paid $20K for an ugly purse and me telling them they are stupid!!! LOL I KNOW I would tell them that it was stupid.
I would even be laughing. But i would not run to the elders of my church to tell them that my friends was "in sin". "IN SANE" maybe....but not in sin.
It is INSANE to blow $160K plus taxes on 8 ugly purses. I wonder if the real problem was the bragging being done at church?
< Message edited by StephK -- 5/8/2008 9:05:31 AM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:57:33 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
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quote:
If there is to be immense wealth, there will always have to be poverty
Yer first name ain't Karl is it? 
quote:
Just that it is impossible for everyone to be wealthy, no matter how hard everyone works.
Hard work does tend to improve one's lot in life though. Not everyone will be extremely welathy...probably correct but they sure can make decent livings through hard work.
I will add I am not sure everyone should be wealthy. Its a tough row to hoe and not for everyone.
quote:
If a small percentage of people control a disproportionately large amount of wealth, this obviously leaves less to go around for everyone else.
I am not sure welath is this kind of finite or this limited or no one who was poor could ever become wealthy...and there are plenty of those stories.
quote:
If you look at basically any large corporation in the USA (something like Walmart, for example), for it to function it's going to need to have people willing to work for near minimum wage as well as cheap labor to manufacture its products.
Is it WalMarts responsibility to see that uneducated unskilled laborers make a living wage? I don't see any kind of evil here. I see if someone is a good steward of the gifts God has given them and applies themselves they can rise above minimum wage jobs.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Its what Hitler did. He made the jews into the reason why everything was wrong in Germany and he then had a licence to do to the jews whatever he wanted to do. He made an enemy and then rallied the country against the enemy and garnered power for himself.
Now its the rich. We tax them to death. We blame them for poverty. We misquote scripture to make them evil. We excuse our own situations because who would want to succeed if you become evil?
I really wish people would quit with the Hitler comparisons
I understand the weariness of Hitler comparisons but I think this one is valid.
quote:
Liberals advocating a progressive tax scale is in no way comparable to the holocaust
I wasn't comparing it to the holocaust. I was comparing it to the methods Hitler used to control the populace to agrner power, just as modern day liberals make scapegoats out of the rich to empower themselves.
Maybe buying a 20,000 dollar purse puts a hundred workers in employment...? If buying cheap goods is wrong because it makes poor people, then we should all go out and buy 20,000 dollar purses to employ better paid workers?
When you apply social justice to economics you have communism...socialism at best.
It does nto work.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 8:58:33 AM
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P31W
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If that is how she feels and these are her friends then she need to go to them in private. Before she does that though she needs to make SURE that she is not just jealous and wanting them to live low on the hog like her.
I am dealing with something like that now with some "young women".....(I don't find that problem with older women). Some have "hard lives" and struggle to just get by while others have pretty easy lives. For them it's not the "purse" issue. Rather it's seeing their friends take vacations, get manicures, get haircuts, build homes or buy a nice automobile.
Those with the ability to do those things don't seem to realize that just "taking" about them hurts the feelings of the girls who cannot afford them.
And the girls who cannot afford them need to readjust their own "desires" to make sure that they are not just jealous of the lifestlyle of their friends who get up and drop their kids off at daycare everyday and who might pull a double shift.
Both groups have the "ability" to be jealous of one another, gossipe about one another or just feel the "other" is in sin for not "being like them".
Two passages of scripture jumped out at me when I read the op.
Matthew 7:1-6
1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye
and
Matthew 18:15-20
15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/8/2008 9:09:29 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/8/2008 9:22:35 AM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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Personally I think it's a fine line here. I have had my eyes opened to the discord between being a member of a wealthy church that was clueless to the very real needs of its neighbors when I was a case manager. I worked with a family that lived directly across the street from the church who would have never been welcomed openly to be honest. This kid had problems but was a good kid underneath the bluff. Both parents worked hard but they were poor. My church at the time wasted more money on frou frou for the church ladies functions in a month than this family could even dream of making in a year. This was stuff that had absolutely no eternal value at all. This church had an after school program that could have been the life saver for the kid on my caseload but they did not offer the service to those who couldn't pay. Trust me when I say, they could have easily offered it as an outreach ministry for the neighborhood kids and made a huge impact with many eternal rewards. This church and the people in it were more concerned with material things than they should have been.
Matthew 6:19-24 comes to mind for me.
19. "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22. "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
23. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24. "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/9/2008 6:52:43 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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quote:
Personally I think it's a fine line here. I have had my eyes opened to the discord between being a member of a wealthy church that was clueless to the very real needs of its neighbors when I was a case manager.
It's a real fine line. I personally feel sorry for people like that as I have said in previous post. a 20 k purse is not gonna fill any need but where to put a tube of 10k lipstick.
Having in my life gobgobs of money myself and having none at times.
I've learned it's a heart matter. I still don't believe any person should have 8 eight purses.
1 bottle of perfume in the Bible does not cover 8 bottles of it.
AS with every purchase a Christian should ask theirselves questions.
I don't see any Christian coming up with a yes to 8 $20,000.00 purses.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/9/2008 9:35:33 PM
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SonInMe1
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Like I've always said, if money causes you to sin...send it to me.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/9/2008 10:51:45 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Like I've always said, if money causes you to sin...send it to me.
Ok, what's your address, u got paypal? how much u need?
I have clearly said that just because a person is broke, it doe's not mean that they cannot be guilty of "the love of money".
but the Bible is clear, plead for the poor.
I plead for the babies of Guam, Thailand, & Lebanon today.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/10/2008 8:25:22 AM
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SonInMe1
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I figure about 30 mil will do it...probably would have to scrimp a little but...I could survive.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/10/2008 11:28:46 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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quote:
I figure about 30 mil will do it...probably would have to scrimp a little but...I could survive.
LOL! I was thinking more like 30 dollars! Me, worth 30 mil? LOL
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/11/2008 1:24:28 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 9/12/2008 1:28:50 AM
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txpope
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quote:
Mar 12:41:44 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, "Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."
The rich people in this passage gave a lot of money. However, Jesus didn't seem to think they had done very much. After all, they hadn't sacrificed anything to give. They had lots leftover. The widow was the one who was commended for her giving, because she gave sacrificially.
There's nothing wrong in having nice things, and in having money. However, we need to hold the things in this world loosely, and remember they are not our own. We are only stewards of them. God is the owner. If He, at any time, instructs us to give up something, we must be able to do that willingly and freely. If we feel a pang in our heart at those instructions, and think, "That's MINE!" then it has more of a hold on us than we'd like to admit.
The point that Jesus was trying to make here was that the woman gave all she had and the others gave from thier excess. You said He didn't think they had done very much, that isn't the case....He was teaching about how much more that woman gave by sacrificing all (though not much) that she had. Jesus wasn't knocking the others for giving. Showing who sacrificed more was a lesson that was hard and still is hard to grasp.
The problem with this discussion is it is subjective. Some people have alot of money and others don't. Those with less are biased to thier personal experiences and those with more are biased to thier position.
God blesses people in many different ways. Just because someone is "Rich" doesn't mean they aren't just as thoughtful or righteous as anyone else. People who are rich have an abundance, if they give from thier hearts, selflessly they are living up to the expectation that Jesus taught. There are many rich people who give more to the church or ministry than 10% yet they have nice things and they cost more than the regular joe can afford but that makes them no different, no more a sinner and no more materialistic than others. They buy from a different store or different manufacturers and it costs more money. Last time I checked the Bible didn't say you can shop at Wal-mart and not at Aeropostale. It is about living within your means as well as living within the guidelines of God's word.
I am not trying to knock anyone or thier position in life, if you have conviction in your heart when you are spending money you need to search for the meaning of that within yourself, not judge others who you have no personal knowledge of.
God Bless!!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 9/12/2008 11:26:21 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
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quote:
ORIGINAL: txpope
quote:
Mar 12:41:44 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, "Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."
The rich people in this passage gave a lot of money. However, Jesus didn't seem to think they had done very much. After all, they hadn't sacrificed anything to give. They had lots leftover. The widow was the one who was commended for her giving, because she gave sacrificially.
There's nothing wrong in having nice things, and in having money. However, we need to hold the things in this world loosely, and remember they are not our own. We are only stewards of them. God is the owner. If He, at any time, instructs us to give up something, we must be able to do that willingly and freely. If we feel a pang in our heart at those instructions, and think, "That's MINE!" then it has more of a hold on us than we'd like to admit.
The point that Jesus was trying to make here was that the woman gave all she had and the others gave from thier excess. You said He didn't think they had done very much, that isn't the case....He was teaching about how much more that woman gave by sacrificing all (though not much) that she had. Jesus wasn't knocking the others for giving. Showing who sacrificed more was a lesson that was hard and still is hard to grasp.
The problem with this discussion is it is subjective. Some people have alot of money and others don't. Those with less are biased to thier personal experiences and those with more are biased to thier position.
God blesses people in many different ways. Just because someone is "Rich" doesn't mean they aren't just as thoughtful or righteous as anyone else. People who are rich have an abundance, if they give from thier hearts, selflessly they are living up to the expectation that Jesus taught. There are many rich people who give more to the church or ministry than 10% yet they have nice things and they cost more than the regular joe can afford but that makes them no different, no more a sinner and no more materialistic than others. They buy from a different store or different manufacturers and it costs more money. Last time I checked the Bible didn't say you can shop at Wal-mart and not at Aeropostale. It is about living within your means as well as living within the guidelines of God's word.
I am not trying to knock anyone or thier position in life, if you have conviction in your heart when you are spending money you need to search for the meaning of that within yourself, not judge others who you have no personal knowledge of.
God Bless!!
You also need to take into account the story that Jesus gave concerning. Building bigger barns. He stated before the story to be on guard against all types of greed; a person's life doesn't consist in the abundants of his possesion.
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