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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 2:01:23 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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She's back!
Paula White is rerunning the same Day of Atonement scam that she did last year. She is promising you prosperity and blessings if you send her large sums of money for the Day of Atonement.
"Redemption was paid once - for all who accept the atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But it didn’t end at the cross. Jesus had to enter the Holy of Holies and apply His blood to the mercy seat upon the Ark of the Covenant -- ONCE FOR ALL!
On 1 special day, God gives you the opportunity to honor Him, to experience His presence, to release blessings and provision, and to be one with Him through the mercy seat.
The Day of Atonement is celebrated this year October 9th, 2008. And it is your opportunity to experience God’s power through 8 SPECIFIC PROMISES OF THE ATONEMENT!
1. Increase (Joel 2:23, NKJV)
2. Revelation (Joel 2:24, NKJV)
3. Fresh Anointing (Joel 2:24, NKJV)
4. God’s Power (Joel 2:24, NKJV) 5. Restoration (Joel 2:25, NKJV)
6. Financial Abundance (Joel 2:26, NKJV)
7. No Shame But Deliverance (Joel 2:27, 2:32 NKJV)
8. God’s Presence (Joel 2:28, NKJV)
Send your offering now and receive these spiritual tools!
Paula White’s insightful new 2-CD teaching, “ONCE FOR ALL.”
Rabbi Ralph Messer’s “Waiting for the King” 3-DVD teaching series.
With your best Atonement offering of $70 or more, you’ll also receive the beautiful and ornately designed miniature Ark of the Covenant as a keepsake for home or office!
When you give $70 or more, you will not only be honoring God by giving something sacrificially from your heart, but you will also receive Paula’s special Day of Atonement resource package as you honor God on His holiest day October 9th, the Day of Atonement, with a willing heart.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 2:57:33 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
She's back!
Paula White is rerunning the same Day of Atonement scam that she did last year. She is promising you prosperity and blessings if you send her large sums of money for the Day of Atonement.
"Redemption was paid once - for all who accept the atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But it didn’t end at the cross. Jesus had to enter the Holy of Holies and apply His blood to the mercy seat upon the Ark of the Covenant -- ONCE FOR ALL!
On 1 special day, God gives you the opportunity to honor Him, to experience His presence, to release blessings and provision, and to be one with Him through the mercy seat.
The Day of Atonement is celebrated this year October 9th, 2008. And it is your opportunity to experience God’s power through 8 SPECIFIC PROMISES OF THE ATONEMENT!
1. Increase (Joel 2:23, NKJV)
2. Revelation (Joel 2:24, NKJV)
3. Fresh Anointing (Joel 2:24, NKJV)
4. God’s Power (Joel 2:24, NKJV) 5. Restoration (Joel 2:25, NKJV)
6. Financial Abundance (Joel 2:26, NKJV)
7. No Shame But Deliverance (Joel 2:27, 2:32 NKJV)
8. God’s Presence (Joel 2:28, NKJV)
Send your offering now and receive these spiritual tools!
Paula White’s insightful new 2-CD teaching, “ONCE FOR ALL.”
Rabbi Ralph Messer’s “Waiting for the King” 3-DVD teaching series.
With your best Atonement offering of $70 or more, you’ll also receive the beautiful and ornately designed miniature Ark of the Covenant as a keepsake for home or office!
When you give $70 or more, you will not only be honoring God by giving something sacrificially from your heart, but you will also receive Paula’s special Day of Atonement resource package as you honor God on His holiest day October 9th, the Day of Atonement, with a willing heart.
This is serious?!?
What's sad is the hundreds of thousands of people who will send her money. Why do so many WOF'ers insist on living in the Old Covenant?
 
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 3:12:07 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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As with all of the WOF fleecers I have this question: if you really believe in your theology, why don't you send $70 to everyone on your mailing list?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 4:18:45 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
She's back!
Paula White is rerunning the same Day of Atonement scam that she did last year. She is promising you prosperity and blessings if you send her large sums of money for the Day of Atonement.
"Redemption was paid once - for all who accept the atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But it didn’t end at the cross. Jesus had to enter the Holy of Holies and apply His blood to the mercy seat upon the Ark of the Covenant -- ONCE FOR ALL!
On 1 special day, God gives you the opportunity to honor Him, to experience His presence, to release blessings and provision, and to be one with Him through the mercy seat.
The Day of Atonement is celebrated this year October 9th, 2008. And it is your opportunity to experience God’s power through 8 SPECIFIC PROMISES OF THE ATONEMENT!
1. Increase (Joel 2:23, NKJV)
2. Revelation (Joel 2:24, NKJV)
3. Fresh Anointing (Joel 2:24, NKJV)
4. God’s Power (Joel 2:24, NKJV) 5. Restoration (Joel 2:25, NKJV)
6. Financial Abundance (Joel 2:26, NKJV)
7. No Shame But Deliverance (Joel 2:27, 2:32 NKJV)
8. God’s Presence (Joel 2:28, NKJV)
Send your offering now and receive these spiritual tools!
Paula White’s insightful new 2-CD teaching, “ONCE FOR ALL.”
Rabbi Ralph Messer’s “Waiting for the King” 3-DVD teaching series.
With your best Atonement offering of $70 or more, you’ll also receive the beautiful and ornately designed miniature Ark of the Covenant as a keepsake for home or office!
When you give $70 or more, you will not only be honoring God by giving something sacrificially from your heart, but you will also receive Paula’s special Day of Atonement resource package as you honor God on His holiest day October 9th, the Day of Atonement, with a willing heart.
This is serious?!?
What's sad is the hundreds of thousands of people who will send her money. Why do so many WOF'ers insist on living in the Old Covenant?
What is even more sadder is how many self-professing Christians cannot see how these people are making merchandise of them and abusing/mocking God's Holy Word.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 4:34:45 PM
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teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
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if you do not agree with what she is doing why watch her program..?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 4:44:23 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
if you do not agree with what she is doing why watch her program..?
I can answer for me...
My mother in law works with Paula White on several fronts, so we have dinner with her and or bump into her several times a year.
Secondly, it is good to be equipped in knowing what she continues to teach and promote so that we can be truly effective in sharing information with others about her teachings, etc. It is the right thing to do so that we do not rely on hearsay or misinformation.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 5:10:29 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4261
Joined: 4/11/2005
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How can Paula White justify taking money from someone as an atonement to God?
(That's rhetorical, of course.)
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 8:15:59 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
if you do not agree with what she is doing why watch her program..?
Because the Bible. my ONE source of truth, commands me to test ALL teaching against Scripture. And when it does not line up or worse, perverts that Scripture, it needs to be EXPOSED.
Paula White is a perfect example of a "Pulpit PIMP". As a DOCUMENTED false teacher and false prophet, she uses God's Word to EXTORT millions from people in order to fund her lavish lifestyle.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2008 8:42:35 PM
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prophet
Posts: 572
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
As with all of the WOF fleecers I have this question: if you really believe in your theology, why don't you send $70 to everyone on your mailing list?
GOOD ONE! 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2008 9:03:37 AM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 172
Joined: 4/3/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
How can Paula White justify taking money from someone as an atonement to God?
(That's rhetorical, of course.)
That's exactly what I've wondered. She never advises you to give to the church you attend. It's always HER p.o. box. Absolutely ridiculous.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 11:14:06 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Have any of you heard of the concept of "seed money"? The idea, I guess, is that you give someone a little seed of money so that it will grow? I was wondering if the WOF people try to justify this in Scripture.
Does anyone know?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 4:57:19 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I was reading up on the "seed money" topic, and found this interesting article.
The Word of Faith Movement and the Cultic Renewal of Indulgences
The article discusses a link between the seed money concept and the history of indulgences.
Here is a part which discusses the concept of "seed money":
quote:
The practice of seed money is simple. If you plant a kernel of corn you reap two ears full of kernels. So it is said to be with money. If you sow money into good ground (ministries ordained of God) you will receive a return on your giving. So the more you give the more you get. This brings us to the hundred fold teachings made popular by Copeland's ministry: "You give $1 for the Gospel's sake and $100 belongs to you. Give $10 and receive $1000. Give $1000 and receive $100,000. I know that you can multipy, but I want you to see it in black and white and see how tremendous the hundred fold return is. Give one house and receive one hundred houses or one house worth one hundred times as much. Give one airplane and receive one hundred times the value of the airplane. Give one car and the return would furnish you a lifetime of cars. In short, Mark 10:30 is a very good deal." (14)
What a mess! Is God just a good investment? Insanity.
I was speaking with a relative, and she mentioned that they had been given "seed money" to help them through some financial difficulties, and the next Sunday they put the seed money in the offering to gain a return.
This is seriously unbiblical.
We are told to help the poor. To help the poor, we should give specifically to the need, and be wise stewards of what God has entrusted to us. I should give food, water, clothes, shelter, etc. To give cash to the poor as "seed money", and then have them "invest" that seed money in their tithe with the purpose of gaining a return, is a complete theological mess.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 9:50:49 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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Mark 10:29 - 30 (ESV) 29Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
They kind of leave out the bolded material
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 10:30:58 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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For those of you who used to be WOF/Prosperity Gospel, what helped you get out? If you have already posted about this, a link to the post would be great!
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 11:12:59 AM
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dwtramm
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/12/2005
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For me it wasn't so much other material and books, but it was actually Scripture itself. When I started reading it in context, and not just pulling out Scriptures to match my beliefs, the Holy Spirit began to open up the light of truth to my error. It wasn't an overnight thing, but progressive and painful. For me it started with Paul's thorn in the flesh. I was led to believe that we had the power to remove our own thorn and that was what the Lord was telling Paul. It wasn't until I actually started studying that Scripture in context that I realized that God was not telling Paul to remove the thorn, but that His grace would be sufficient for the thorn.
One by one slowly my WOF beliefs were erroded away by Scripture. It wasn't until I rejected the teachings fully that I began to read books like Christianity and Crisis, which I couldn't finish because it brought back a lot of bad memories for me, but Hank did do a very good job in exposing the lies of WOF doctrine.
So it was Scripture itself that exposed the error of my WOF beliefs.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 11:44:06 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Thank you for answering, dwtramm.
I have a most sorrowful story to share about how destructive the WOF/Prosperity Gospel teachings are.  Please forgive me for this lengthy post.
My brother had kidney disease. He had a transplant when he was in his early 20's, but that kidney eventually failed. He was on dialysis for many years.
The family (my family) urged him to pursue another kidney transplant.
But their Christmas letters started to say things like God was going to heal him, and he is already healed but we are waiting for it to be manifested, we can stop the medication at any time, etc. etc.
His finances were a mess. Every decision they made was based on feelings and strange beliefs instead of on sound Scriptural financial wisdom.
Folks, my brother died last week, and his wife is left with four children and a lot of debt, and they are completely immersed in the WOF/Prosperity Gospel theology.
The funeral was so odd! What happens to the WOF believers when the healing doesn't come?
My brother was on his death bed, and his pastors were still asking him if he believed he would be healed. They asked him if he wanted to live or die. There he was, dying at the age of 42 of kidney disease, and instead of speaking of Christ and of the great love God has for him, they were still pushing the healing agenda.
At the funeral they used "by His stripes we are healed." I almost walked out. It was such a distortion of the Scriptures!!!!
dwtramm, you spoke of the pain you have experienced. I think my SIL will have IMMENSE pain if the Lord helps her get out of the bad theology. I believe she will have many regrets, and this pains me to think of it. I pray that the Lord will graciously help her find correct doctrine, and I pray the Lord will give her His sufficient grace to deal with the sorrows she may feel.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 11:58:53 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Just for the heck of it I was watching Old Mr. Hinn this morning and he had on there the gentleman who started it all Mr. Oral Roberts. Who for some reason was handing Benny a check for his ministry. Didn't catch the amount he was giving him. But notice that Ben went into a great spew about how much it has cost him for the IRS and the senate investagation into his recieving funds for his minstry. He came up with a figure of five million dollars for which he had paid just two million and need three million more to stay a float. If I am not mistaken in those words. He had Oral also confused to the matter at hand.
What, Benny if you would have not spent 14 million on a house you have in the Dallas, TX. area. Maybe just maybe you could have paid for that big bill you got now. 
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 1:02:01 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Thank you for answering, dwtramm.
I have a most sorrowful story to share about how destructive the WOF/Prosperity Gospel teachings are. Please forgive me for this lengthy post.
My brother had kidney disease. He had a transplant when he was in his early 20's, but that kidney eventually failed. He was on dialysis for many years.
The family (my family) urged him to pursue another kidney transplant.
But their Christmas letters started to say things like God was going to heal him, and he is already healed but we are waiting for it to be manifested, we can stop the medication at any time, etc. etc.
His finances were a mess. Every decision they made was based on feelings and strange beliefs instead of on sound Scriptural financial wisdom.
Folks, my brother died last week, and his wife is left with four children and a lot of debt, and they are completely immersed in the WOF/Prosperity Gospel theology.
The funeral was so odd! What happens to the WOF believers when the healing doesn't come?
My brother was on his death bed, and his pastors were still asking him if he believed he would be healed. They asked him if he wanted to live or die. There he was, dying at the age of 42 of kidney disease, and instead of speaking of Christ and of the great love God has for him, they were still pushing the healing agenda.
At the funeral they used "by His stripes we are healed." I almost walked out. It was such a distortion of the Scriptures!!!!
dwtramm, you spoke of the pain you have experienced. I think my SIL will have IMMENSE pain if the Lord helps her get out of the bad theology. I believe she will have many regrets, and this pains me to think of it. I pray that the Lord will graciously help her find correct doctrine, and I pray the Lord will give her His sufficient grace to deal with the sorrows she may feel.
That is an extremely sad event, and unfortunately it is very common.
When I was caught up in the teaching, I myself did the same thing the WOF proponents would do.
One such example.
I was the guest speaker at a church, preached on it being God's will to heal and all the verses pulled out of context I would often use. I called for a pray line. One lady with dizzy spells came forward. I prayed for her and asked her to do what she couldn't do before (a common thing done in WOF circles). She moved her head around and almost feel down. I commanded the spirit of dizziness to leave again (another common thing to do) and told her to move her head around again. She did, and almost fell over the second time. I told her not to come back up for prayer until she had enough faith to be healed. Looking back now I realize what an arrogant thing to say to her. Instead of reaching out compassion, I pronounced judgment upon her. This was an event I really had to deal with after abandoning the WOF teaching. I knew that God forgave me when I repented, but I struggled with myself over things like this.
It has come back to haunt me in the fact that my Dad, a godly minister who loved the Lord, died at the age of sixty because of the blood clot to the lung. He died while going to the pulpit to preach one Sunday morning. Some people at the church I currently Pastor who happen to be WOF arrogantly told me a similar thing: If my Dad would of had enough faith, He wouldn't of had the blood clot. One person told me that my Dad probably had sin in his life and God punished him!
And while this angered me and hurt, It brought back memories of me doing similar things.
So now I pray for these people and preach the truth of God's Word, asking the Lord to change them as He changed me. And I'm also learning to love them, which can be difficult sometimes.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 1:42:33 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
It has come back to haunt me in the fact that my Dad, a godly minister who loved the Lord, died at the age of sixty because of the blood clot to the lung. He died while going to the pulpit to preach one Sunday morning. Some people at the church I currently Pastor who happen to be WOF arrogantly told me a similar thing: If my Dad would of had enough faith, He wouldn't of had the blood clot. One person told me that my Dad probably had sin in his life and God punished him!
There is a passage in Scripture about healing that we can trust in its context.
(Jas 5:14,15) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
This is the passage I rely on at our Church in praying for the sick.
Now the WOF folks will not use it for it puts the causation for the healing on the faith of those praying, not on the sick person. And therefor if there is any "Blame" for a healing not happening then it is the faith of the Elders that is weak.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 1:53:58 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
It has come back to haunt me in the fact that my Dad, a godly minister who loved the Lord, died at the age of sixty because of the blood clot to the lung. He died while going to the pulpit to preach one Sunday morning. Some people at the church I currently Pastor who happen to be WOF arrogantly told me a similar thing: If my Dad would of had enough faith, He wouldn't of had the blood clot. One person told me that my Dad probably had sin in his life and God punished him!
There is a passage in Scripture about healing that we can trust in its context.
(Jas 5:14,15) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
This is the passage I rely on at our Church in praying for the sick.
Now the WOF folks will not use it for it puts the causation for the healing on the faith of those praying, not on the sick person. And therefor if there is any "Blame" for a healing not happening then it is the faith of the Elders that is weak.
Thanks
RC
Could just be God's will that the person not be healed. Hebrews 12 says that it is for the believer's discipline and growth that they go through trials and tribulations.
We should pray and James is scriptural, but I don't think we can chalk it up to the lack of faith on the elder's part either.
WOFers don't get that, for sure.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 2:05:00 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
It has come back to haunt me in the fact that my Dad, a godly minister who loved the Lord, died at the age of sixty because of the blood clot to the lung. He died while going to the pulpit to preach one Sunday morning. Some people at the church I currently Pastor who happen to be WOF arrogantly told me a similar thing: If my Dad would of had enough faith, He wouldn't of had the blood clot. One person told me that my Dad probably had sin in his life and God punished him!
There is a passage in Scripture about healing that we can trust in its context.
(Jas 5:14,15) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
This is the passage I rely on at our Church in praying for the sick.
Now the WOF folks will not use it for it puts the causation for the healing on the faith of those praying, not on the sick person. And therefor if there is any "Blame" for a healing not happening then it is the faith of the Elders that is weak.
Thanks
RC
Could just be God's will that the person not be healed. Hebrews 12 says that it is for the believer's discipline and growth that they go through trials and tribulations.
We should pray and James is scriptural, but I don't think we can chalk it up to the lack of faith on the elder's part either.
WOFers don't get that, for sure.
There is a little verse that has helped me when it comes to those who are sick.
2 Timothy 4:20 ESV - I left Trophimus, who was ill, at Miletus.
It is straight and matter of fact. Trophimus is sick, and Paul left him in Miletus. You don't see Paul blaming Trophimus for lack of faith, neither do you see him saying he had sin in his life and therefore God was punishing him, he simply states he left him in Miletus.
I'm sure that Paul prayed for him. Paul didn't jump to any conclusions conerning Trophimus, he just stated a fact: He was sick and had to leave him in Miletus.
I think we can learn something here. Pray for the sick and trust the Lord to heal them, but don't jump to the blaming game if nothing happens. Leave them in the Lord's hands.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 4:27:47 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Thank you, dwtramm.
I think my SIL may face a crisis of faith.
She spoke with me for about an hour about all their struggles. She is grieving immensely and I just let her talk without interruption. She can't understand why God didn't heal him.
If she will be receptive, I do plan to speak with her about these things, but that just wasn't the correct moment. I could tell the Lord is working on her heart, her head is confused, she is thinking through everything like a rehearsal in her mind, and she is hurting greatly.
I have to pray long and hard about the words I say to her, and pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I've always looked at the Paul/thorn story and understood that God's grace is sufficient to carry us through, and other passages indicate that God uses our weaknesses for His glory.
Ex 4:14 - Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, "Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.
God didn't fix the speaking ability of Moses--he gave him Aaron as a helper. There are numerous examples in Scripture where God chose to work through the weaknesses to show His glory rather than acting as the McMiracle Drive Thru Service Provider.
By putting all your hopes into a miracle, you are telling God that unless you have that miracle you are worthless in your life. God wants His people to say, "You are my God, and through whatever circumstances, sick or healthy, poor or wealthy, all that I am and all that I have is Yours to be used by You for Your glory, and I serve You above everything." Paul is an excellent example of this, and spoke this way (like in phil 4:11-13--to be content, and know that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us). All our hope and strength is in Christ--not miracles.
Psalm 73:25-28 Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. My flesh and my heart fail; But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
For indeed, those who are far from You shall perish; You have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry. But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord God, That I may declare all Your works.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 5:31:58 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 281
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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You are correct on the Paul/thorn interpretation.
I was at one time a follower of Kenneth Copeland (yikes!!!) and the remove it yourself theology I heard him teach.
The last time I watch TBN a long time ago, I saw Jesse Duplantis hosting their Praise the Lord program and he made a similar statement. Basically he said, He no longer has a thorn, because he removed it. The crowd erupted in amens, and glories, and I turned the thing off.
Just continue to seek the Lord in behalf of your S-I-L. The Lord can take her through this painful time.
I can honestly say that during my crisis of faith God was so gracious and merciful to me.
Its one of the experiences that you have that you are glad you went through, but at the same time you would never want too go through it again, nor would you want to see anyone go through it either.
The good news was, in my anger, hurt, confusion, and frustration I never forsook God's Word. I turned to it in my own dark night of the soul.
He picked up the broken pieces....piece by piece, and molded my heart.
I've still got a long way to go, but thanks to the Lord I'm not where I was.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 3:43:33 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
I can honestly say that during my crisis of faith God was so gracious and merciful to me.
Its one of the experiences that you have that you are glad you went through, but at the same time you would never want too go through it again, nor would you want to see anyone go through it either.
The good news was, in my anger, hurt, confusion, and frustration I never forsook God's Word. I turned to it in my own dark night of the soul.
He picked up the broken pieces....piece by piece, and molded my heart.
This gives me hope.
One of the things I am struggling with right now, is wondering if I could have done more to knock some sense into my brother. He wasn't really interested in hearing what his younger sister had to say. The times I did try to talk to him he wouldn't listen, or he changed his story so that his situation wouldn't look so bad.
He wasn't honest with me about how bad things were getting in his life.
I keep telling myself that he was responsible for his own decisions, that he was the head of his household and it was up to him to seek Biblical counsel.
But it is still very painful.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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