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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:00:34 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
manichunter:This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.
Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?
I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.
Abishua:Great example! Because the Truth is that Grace operates within the confines of the Law. Without the Law, there is no Grace
I would agree that without Law in place we wouldn’t understand the need for grace, but that is were usefulness of the Law for salvation pretty much ends,with realization we can’t obey it to earn a passing grade.I’d also agree that Love God wants us to exibit can be somewhat defined , even if highly imperfectly, by literal rules : do not steal, don’t sleep around... But that is not under debate here, looks like we debate specific laws that our beloved and respected LT camp says we need to obey, mostly ceremonial ones.
The burden of proof is on advocates of keeping such Laws to show why I need to do _____ (they actually yet to define what exactly) . My question on Sabbath thread as for literal instructions of how do they recommend it being done yet to be answered.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:43:02 AM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I disagree wholeheartedly. Grace operates high and above the requirements of the law:
"Mercy triumphs over judgement." (James 2:13)
I hope you are not saying that Grace operates outside of the Law. Grace and Law are flip sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.
The Law still stands and Grace is still available.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 12:32:18 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I disagree wholeheartedly. Grace operates high and above the requirements of the law:
"Mercy triumphs over judgement." (James 2:13)
I hope you are not saying that Grace operates outside of the Law. Grace and Law are flip sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.
The Law still stands and Grace is still available.
It's all in the "mindset."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 12:33:07 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I disagree wholeheartedly. Grace operates high and above the requirements of the law:
"Mercy triumphs over judgement." (James 2:13)
I hope you are not saying that Grace operates outside of the Law. Grace and Law are flip sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.
The Law still stands and Grace is still available.
Grace operates OUTSIDE the confines of the Law. The Law can only condemn. That was its purpose.
"Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the scripture imprisoned everyone under sin so that the promise could be given- because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ - to those who believe." (Gal. 3:21-22)
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those are are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God."
For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for though the law comes the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:19-20)
"For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the Law." (Romans 3:28)
Quotations from the NET Bible.
Article to read about the law:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=880
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/7/2008 1:07:08 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 1:08:20 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
Kashrut
God: And remember, Moses, in the laws of keeping Kosher, never cook a calf in its mother's milk. It is cruel.
Moses: So you are saying we should never eat milk and meat together.
God: No, what I'm saying is, never cook a calf in its mother's milk.
Moses: Oh Lord, forgive my ignorance! What you are really saying is we should wait six hours after eating meat to eat milk so the two are not in our stomachs.
God: No, Moses, listen to me. I am saying, don't cook a calf in its mother's milk!!!
Moses: Oh, Lord! Please don't strike me down for my stupidity! What you mean is we should have a separate set of dishes for milk and a separate set for meat and if we make a mistake we have to bury that dish outside....
God: Moses, do whatever you want..........
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:45:58 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Grace operates OUTSIDE the confines of the Law. The Law can only condemn. That was its purpose.
"Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the scripture imprisoned everyone under sin so that the promise could be given- because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ - to those who believe." (Gal. 3:21-22)
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those are are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God."
For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for though the law comes the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:19-20)
"For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the Law." (Romans 3:28)
God's law defines sin and thereby the need for a Savior. The blood of Christ saves us from the condemnation of breaking the Law (sin), but the law of God displays the kind of life required by God, and the consequences of disobedience to it cannot be ignored.
Scripture portrays law and grace as correlative to each other. God's grace operates within the parameters of His law — in justifying His people God does not violate His own justice (Rom. 3:26). And God's law is gracious (Ps. 119:29). The two support each other: the law promotes the fulfillment of God's promise (Rom. 5:20-21), and God's grace works to fulfill the law (Rom. 8:3-4).
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 6:13:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
God's law defines sin and thereby the need for a Savior. The blood of Christ saves us from the condemnation of breaking the Law (sin), but the law of God displays the kind of life required by God, and the consequences of disobedience to it cannot be ignored.
For the sinner, yes.
"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers," (1 Tim 1:9 NIV)
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 12:22:45 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3170
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
God's law defines sin and thereby the need for a Savior. The blood of Christ saves us from the condemnation of breaking the Law (sin), but the law of God displays the kind of life required by God, and the consequences of disobedience to it cannot be ignored.
For the sinner, yes.
"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers," (1 Tim 1:9 NIV)
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God:
Guess none of us are exempt?
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 2:44:41 PM
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bob97
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There is a difference Carl...you don't continue in sin once you have Christ.
I will not ask you this question directly because you focus on the law but to the normal gentile, don't they live within Christ and grow in their salvation and don't they tend to not focus on the law. Isn't that because the law is actually written within their hearts and they know it instinctively.
I know until I made it my business to understand more, that was my attitude. It is the attitude of my wife today…she loves God with all her heart but her focus in not on the law, yet she follows it within her heart and without even thinking about it would not break Gods laws. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 4:11:20 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
There is a difference Carl...you don't continue in sin once you have Christ.
I will not ask you this question directly because you focus on the law but to the normal gentile, don't they live within Christ and grow in their salvation and don't they tend to not focus on the law. Isn't that because the law is actually written within their hearts and they know it instinctively.
I know until I made it my business to understand more, that was my attitude. It is the attitude of my wife today…she loves God with all her heart but her focus in not on the law, yet she follows it within her heart and without even thinking about it would not break Gods laws.
Bob
Here,here This what I said many months ago.Which I still got nailed for not following the law. Which again becomes a salvation issue because you are working to get in.
When will a person realise without the help or trust of Jesus Christ and his words. We can and do fail miserably in even keep the smallist law on the books. Whoops I stand to be corrected again, wrong all sin is the same in the Master eyes.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 4:51:46 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
her focus in not on the law, yet she follows it within her heart and without even thinking about it would not break Gods laws.
That's where we "should" be. Amen.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 8:06:50 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
God's law defines sin and thereby the need for a Savior. The blood of Christ saves us from the condemnation of breaking the Law (sin), but the law of God displays the kind of life required by God, and the consequences of disobedience to it cannot be ignored.
For the sinner, yes.
"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers," (1 Tim 1:9 NIV)
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God:
Guess none of us are exempt?
Exempt is not the correct word. I never suggested that any of us are exempt. The righteousness of the Law has been fulfilled in us through Jesus Christ. There was certainly a time when it had not been. Prior to the time I accepted Christ, I was condemned by the Law. When I trusted Christ as my Savior, I was declared "righteous" or "justified" in His sight.
Therefore, when that happened, the Law was fulfilled in me through the blood of Christ and I entered into a New Covenant relationship with Him. In that sense, I am no longer regarded as a sinner in His eyes, but rather righteous. Paul tells us that we are "dead to the Law" and "released from the Law."
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:6 NASB)
Since I am in a New Covenant relationship, I am not obligated to the old one. I am no longer subject to the Law's jurisdiction. It cannot condemn me if I fail (I am already dead, in a sense). I cannot be stoned with stones, I cannot be compelled by its regulations to offer sacrifices for my sins.
To me, it has already "passed away," just as Jeremiah the prophet predicted and the author of Hebrews described.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/8/2008 8:33:02 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 1:33:39 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
God's law defines sin and thereby the need for a Savior. The blood of Christ saves us from the condemnation of breaking the Law (sin), but the law of God displays the kind of life required by God, and the consequences of disobedience to it cannot be ignored.
For the sinner, yes.
"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers," (1 Tim 1:9 NIV)
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God:
Guess none of us are exempt?
Greetings,
Didn't Paul even say he was chief...I mean I guess that is why he mentioned this here?
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
I think that many believe that keeping the law is boasting of sin, because they can not read between the lines….
But when we read what Paul is actually saying above; in which he called himself... chief....
Paul boasts in the cross of our Lord Jesus because of his own sin,
......which he himself ...also said, if it were not for the law!
Well if it were not for the law then Paul would have nothing to boast about in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ .
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 10:17:49 PM
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GrahamCracker
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LBolt said in the Sabbath thread
quote:
Has any of the Law been fulfilled, even the sacrifices?
Question, why did Paul offer the Nazarites vow in Acts 21:23-26, this would have been the perfect time to illustrate the fulfillment or "done away'ment" of the Law?
Indeed, that is so. But in bringing forth that argument, it is a double-edged sword. Yes, it would have been a good time to instruct that the Law had been done away with. But, if you read verse 25, you will note that it would also have been a good time to instruct that Gentiles needed to continue to keep the Sabbath and circumcision.
Now, while we are at it, let's look at WHY Paul purified himself. He had been accused of teaching the Jews to abandon the Mosaic system. If you thought I had said he did, please understand that I did not argue that. My argument is that scripture never says that Paul kept any of the law because he believed he had the obligation to please God by keeping the Law and the Sabbath.
In fact, this section clears up one of the controversies taking place in this thread: whether or not Paul continued to keep the Law. Obviously, he did. But again, that has never been a dilemma for me. I have argued that most likely he did. The question is this: why? Scripture tells us what his motives were--evangelism. I'll not quote it for you. I don't have the room or time. Some of these (my) posts are getting long. Please read 1 Cor. 9:20-22.
quote:
As far as the priesthood, are we not "kings and priests unto our Elohim?"
Indeed, that is true. But that does not address the question. Your position cannot logically be either of the the two:
1) None of the law has been fulfilled.
2) Part of the law has fulfilled.
If you read Hebrews 7, particularly verse 13--you will note that under the Law priests must come from the Levites. High priests can only be descended from Aaron, Moses' brother. That being so, we cannot have priests in the Mosaic Law from among the Gentiles. Certainly, your quotation (I believe from one of the Petrine epistles) contradicts the stipulation in the Pentateuch. Obviously, God can change anything He wants. But isn't this a change in the Law? And if we have a change in the Law, isn't it as I said--a different covenant?
quote:
quote:
Paul pronounced anathema to those teachers of the Law who deceived the Galatians
Oral Law...my friend. Explain Romans 8:2-4.
OK. I read it. It wasn't helpful. Please spell it out, man.  I don't have the gift of eisegesis. If you want to import some idea that the text doesn't contain, you're going to have to explain yourself.
quote:
As far as circumcision is concerned, Avraham was not circumcised until 24 years after his encounter with Adonai. The returning brethren in Acts 15 was not forced to undergo circumcision. Didn't Timothy or Titus undergo circumcision?
Indeed. But what does the Law command? The command is to circumcise male infants on the eighth day. Obviously, allowances must be made when circumstances do not permit.
But in making a change in circumcision, Paul is not talking about making allowances for people who cannot circumcise. Paul is permitting Gentiles to forgo circumcision altogether. In fact, he rebukes the Galatians for circumcision. He never tells them that they should circumcise properly. He tells them not to.
Insofar as Timothy getting circumcised, we are told the reason, Acts 16:1-3. "...because of the Jews..." Timothy was part Jewish and apparently a candidate for full acceptance as Jew insofar as the Jews were concerned. By circumcising him, Paul had more freedom to get Timothy recognized as being Jewish.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 7:04:20 AM
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LBolt
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But then he would be setting precedence and showing that there is a difference between "Jew and Greek" when there isn't. Paul's main ministry focus was to the gentiles and not the Judeans or Jewish people. To answer the thing about circumsion, Gen. 17:14 describes it as a everlasting covenant.
"Fulfilled" not only means "comes to pass" it also means to "fully preach" and in some instances like Matt. 5:17; it means just that. It depends on the context. Gotta run...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 11:37:52 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3170
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quote:
I don't have the gift of eisegesis.
Thanks for the "thought."
I'd never considered a concept such as this.
I'll be using it in the future. LOL.
I try to instruct the "difference" between
eisegesis and exegesis to my students.
Some understand it and some don't. It takes time
to change mindsets. But we've got 'til the end.
I know I had the "gift of eisegesis" and I used it
very well in my former days. And I also realize
almost every one believe it's the other guy who
does that. LOL.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 6:19:30 PM
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LBolt
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Deut 4:6 linked to Proverbs 3:19, 1:9, 4:1-9 all reveal that Torah was grace to those who receive it and choose to walk in it.
like some one said, "Law and Grace are flipsides of the same coin.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 6:27:14 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Insofar as Timothy getting circumcised, we are told the reason, Acts 16:1-3. "...because of the Jews..." Timothy was part Jewish and apparently a candidate for full acceptance as Jew insofar as the Jews were concerned. By circumcising him, Paul had more freedom to get Timothy recognized as being Jewish.
This would have been another time for Paul to object to circumcision (Torah) and lay this whole thing to rest. He could have simply tell them that we are under the New Covenant and this is no longer needed. Don't put this "burden" on our dear brother. As vocal and bold as Paul was, I know he would have spoken up and revealed the mystery and revelation of the New Covenant and how it invalidates the Torah.
In my opinion, this is proof that circumcision was approved of in the New Covenant, as long as it was done in proper order. Paul felt that Timothy was mature enough to travel with him, as opposed to John Mark who ran away when persecution came. I don't believe there are separate rules for Jews and gentiles...we are all one in Messiah.
I wonder how much controversy I'd start if I started a "Two House thread?" LOL!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 7:36:34 PM
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bob97
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LBolt...I think it is pretty apparent that Paul did reject circumcision and here are some scripture to show that very thing.
Gal 5:2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.
Gal 5:11 Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended.
quoted from the NLT...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 4:37:23 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, tell me, how directly do I connect biology or the soul to salvation? Please, be specific. It would be good to get some clear feedback on what I am saying.
For instance, you believe God purposely blesses us in our circumstances if we go to Church on the right day. It reminds me of the person who feels guilty and sad for getting in a car accident and thinking, "if I had not been sinning by driving 1 MPH over the speed limit to work today I would not have arrived at this intersection at the moment that person ran the red light". That kind of thinking is pure bondage.
That is not a good analogy, because it is not about being in a particular place at a particular time. I do not believe in "Church" as it is commonly understood, regardless of the day. I am not saying that all "Church services" violate the commandments, but most do not seem to recognize what I consider to be the important parts of Shabbat. There is more to the commandments regarding Shabbat than the convocation. In fact, the Shabbat convocation is in only one place in the Scriptures. So, please, try again.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yes, Adonai is no respector of persons. However, He has created consequences for an individuals actions. ...7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."
No question about it. But, as in the example I shared, it can lead to a legalistic bondage that actually robs us of the life God wants to give us in Christ. Creating and imagining unrealistic connections between following the letter of the law and the situations and circumstances we endure is not living. Been there done that. I'd rather be dead. This kind of thinking is often at the heart of relating to God through a sense of law. Bold emphasis mine.
This is not a necessary outcome. In fact, as one studies Torah, it becomes clear that Adonai works in "realistic" ways. This is my point, Adonai created us as physical as well as spiritual beings and Adonai seeks to heal us both physically and spiritually. That is why He set up real consequences that keep us grounded.
quote:
But there definately is this connection in regard to following after the character of God. Whenever we choose to not act like God in our relationships we forfeit His spiritual blessing. In the NT this means His 'zoe' life (not biological life) that He has given us in the person of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, that is the Ruach(Life, Spirit, Breath) of Adonai, but that Spirit became flesh and dwelt among us. So, He took on biological life. This does complicate the nice neat catagories that many claim to see in the Scriptures. I doubt that is the definition that the greeks and romans understood, but it is how Paul would have understood it. Unless this is yet another change that is presumed even though it is not clearly stated in Paul's writings.
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"8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." (1 Peter 3:8-12)
Even with this being a direct quote out of the OT, you can see this has nothing to do with procedures and ceremonies of worship, but rather our relationships with other people.
Peter is not saying we have no other obligations. He is summarizing a dialogue on interpersonal relationships. So, of course he is quoting a Scripture that deals with our relationships with other people. Nowhere does he say this is the whole duty of man. If He were talking about that he may very well have quoted Soloman, who tells us, (Ec 12:13b) "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
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"18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." (1 Cor. 6:18)
..."What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " (Mark 7:20-23)
Christ-like character is the outward active expression of the Spirit within. Character is how the Spirit shows itself through a person. The Bible is clear on this; character is the measure of one's life and relationship with God. Outward things like foods, and various ceremonies and procedures mean nothing now. They once had their purpose and meaning before we moved into the deeper revelation that has come to us with the New Covenant through the Holy Spirit.
"17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17-18)
"9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them. 10We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat." (Heb. 13:9-10)
I'm not starting a discussion about clean/unclean foods (dont' even go there please). The point these passages defend is the meaninglessness of proper outward worship. It's all about being in ecstatic relationship with God, communing with Him through the person of the Holy Spirit, not relating to Him through a list of rules for proper worship.
Pursuit of godly character, resisting eveything that interferes with that, is how we experience the life that God has given us in salvation and the life unbelievers have no privelege or right to indulge. Adherance to a system of rigid external worship requiremets is not the appointed way to daily enter into the life God has given to us in the Holy Spirit. They may be tools through which we approach God to commune with His Spirit, but in and of themselves they are not the things that God says He will reward with His presence for simply having done them.
It would be easier to respond if you wouldn't insist on this endless sermonizing. First, you present sexual sin as the "one" sin against the body as if this is significant. But then rather than pointing out that significance, you move on to argue that inward motivation is more important than individual actions. Then you forbid me to talk about the individual actions and conclude that "proper outward worship" is meaningless. Then you add yet another term (ecstatic) to your lexicon of proper relationships. Then in defining that term you introduce a pet doctrine that you set in opposition to what you have called "proper outward worship", which I am not supposed to discuss. You then return to your term "character" which I gather is not related to anything one does. Finally, you conclude with a straw man characterization of right living as "rigid external worship requirements" which one does with no thought of Adonai whatsoever.
Wow, you are certainly good at convincing yourself that you are right. However, you have only convinced me that you appear to be incapable of carrying on a two way conversation. You know, where one person makes a short clear statement and the other person gives a short clear response and the two then come to some agreement before moving on to the next point? Believe me, both parties do eventually get to make all of their points using this method.
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Bluethread:
Jn 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
I'm not clear how this verse draws a "distinction between spiritual and biological life".
The Greek words for 'life' in vs. 10, and 'life' in vs. 11 are two different words (Strong's #2222 & #5590 respectively). The good shepherd lays down his natural life (body and soul) so that the sheep might have full and ecstatic spiritual life above and beyond their biological and soulish life. 'Psuche' is the breathe of God in each of us. 'Zoe' life speaks of the abundance and quality of life that comes from the Holy Spirit which only those who are born-again have access to. It's not just 'pschue' life on steroids. It's a quality of life apart from physical life, but definatley does influence physical life and can make that better to.
It might have been easier had you said that, rather than presume I would interpret the verses that way. Since you insist on ignoring the Tanach, unless it is useful to you, I will for the time being go along with the greek terms for now. Now, I have told you what I thought Adonai was implying when He said, (Gen 1:27a) "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him . . ." and (Gen 2:7) "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Tell me how this fits into you belief system.
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You'll find these passages interesting:
"10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." (John 4:10)
"4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" (Matt. 4:4)
In both cases 'living' and 'live' refer to the 'zoe' life that God gives, not the natural breathe of 'psuche' life God gives. Which is interesting considering that the context of both passages is about physical bread and water which we assosiate with natural 'psuche' life, not spiritual life.
He's using the illustration of natural bread and water which nourishes us to natural 'psuche' life to teach us about the bread and a water not of this world that nourishes us to eternal 'zoe' life.
That's all well and good, but you say I don't need illustrations. So, if that is the case, why should I even look at those verses. After all, reading in and of itself is just a useless physical action. If you are correct, I am sure The Spirit will tell me all I need to know without all of this ritualistic reading stuff.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/12/2008 4:44:31 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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