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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 5:42:43 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Dear L and BT, i truly respect and appreciate your accounts about S keeping,and sincerely believe that you are the kind of people for whom it truly is a beautiful ceremony. God bless you richly and lead you always. It is very nice that you , BT, offer your home as, basically, beit knesset, and God be with your congregation.
quote:
It is not that there are no requirements, it is just that Scripture gives us very little detail and a few examples. This is why I am confused as to why some are so opposed to keeping Shabbat.
I am as well confused as to why some are so insistent that people lounging around and getting together for some torah study/worship are more pleasing to God then those who do it on Sund, Mond, Tues or any time 2 or 3 "are gathered in My name"
I am not opposed to keeping Sabbath your way , honestly, brothers. For whom it works and brings them closer to God this way,great. There are some SK that are better Christians then I ever will be.But to me personally that view and that road is lowered expectations of what the Sabbath is and how to spend it;t wouldn't make me more Christ-like. All the monumental amount of evidence suggests that keeping Sabbath doesn’t make majority of participating in it people to love or please God more. Modern state of Israel. Enough said.
Again – I don’t deny it works for some and would never, ever discourage, to the contrary, i
would encourage people for whom it works to continue in the congregation and in the manner they chose.
But as a general rule, for majority, I don’t recommend it. It takes a certain brand of people to know how to observe S w/t turning into a religionistic fool. "If you scratch a staunch Sabbath keeper hard enough you will always find a legalist " - in my experience that formula sadly proves itself to be right in vast majority of cases.
Nor do I question your intent. There are two points that don't seem to be noticed in this discussion.
First, if there are more who keep Shabbat finding fault with those who worship on another day than the other way around, which I doubt, it might be because those who keep Shabbat tend to be more serious about the Scriptures than the average Sunday keeping "church" member. I say I doubt it, because historically there have been many more people killed for keeping Shabbat than for keeping Sunday.
Second, the argument is generally framed in the context of those who see some days as holy vs. those who see all days the same. It appears to me, in most cases, it is more a matter of those who hold one set of days as holy vs. those who hold other days as holy. Even those who say they see all days the same, do not appear to worship in totally arbitrary fashion as such an interpretation would imply. That is why I believe Paul is refering to rabbinic(disputed) observances rather than the appointed times of Adonai.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 5:54:25 PM
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eschatologist
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Remembering to keep Holy the Sabbath day is a part of the laws of Moses which were done away with at the coming of Jesus.
"For the law came by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
"For the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer ubder a schoolmaster." (We are no longer under the law)
"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did."
"Christ is become of no affect unto you whosoever of you are justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace."
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes."
The new law that Jesus instituted was the law of Love one for another:
"A new commandment I give unto you that ye love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another, by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another."
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"
"For he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law".
We do have to love one another, and of course if we love each other we're not going to kill our neighbor or steel his goods or lust after his wife, etc. But love is also forgivness for those who do wrong us. The laws of Moses provided punishment for the disobedient, and allowed you to seek revenge and justice for those who have wronged you . But Jesus taught that we're all sinners and in need of forgiveness. So we need to forgive one another as part of our loving interaction with one another.
So back to the topic of this thread, the Sabbath day. Since we are not obligated to keep the law any more, we are not obligated to keep the Sabbath. It's probably good to have a day of rest at least once a week. But this day could be any day of the week. There is no God given scriptural law that says we have to have it on the Sabbath. (The last day of the week) At least not any more. You're not disobeying Jesus' New testament law of love by having your day of rest on Sunday or any other day of the week.
From what I recall of History, the early church instituted Sunday as our Christian day of rest and fellowship because it coincides with Jesus resurrection from the dead. The divinity of Jesus and His rising from the dead is the basis of our christian belief. So I think having Sunday as the christian's day of rest and fellowship is perfectly fine. It's like we're celebrating Jesus' resurrection every Sunday. I certainly don't see anything wrong with that.
There's a verse in Hebrews that says that Jesus "is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."
To me, trying to obey the old laws of Moses regarding the Sabbath day by having worship services on Saturday is a throwback to the pre-christian era of obedience to the law of a carnal commandment. Whereas, using Sunday as our day of rest represents the power of an endless life, which is what Jesus gives us through His life death and resurrection from the dead. "He that hath the Son hath everlasting life."
P.S. Most of these verses I re-called from memeory. But since I'm not too good with references I didn't include the reference. Sorry. I just didn't have the time to look upthe references to all these verse.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2008 11:46:41 AM
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mcleod
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Hello Bluethread with your last statement you have made great words to us. Who don't think like you. Have you become the great judge on the matter who loves God more? one other thing please have some facts to back up when you wrote that more die because of their belief in the seventh day than the first day.
What has that got to do with oberservence? Than people (doesn't matter what day) are evil and think of themselves all the time.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2008 6:57:34 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 992
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Hey SB, judging frrom the verses you supplied and the text in Heb. 2, chapter 6, 10, it appears that this is not an evangelistic, convert sinners to Christ book...
I went back and reread my post. I see it doesn't make my position clear. The author of the letter is exhorting the church to make sure that those who have made a profession of faith have and are indeed continuing in the faith they started out with. 'Enter my rest' is a metaphor for entering into salvation. That's the rest we are told to not be found to have fallen short of.
"...let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did..." (Heb. 4:1-2)
As we both know, many people who say they're saved are often found later not to have been saved at all. I personally do not believe in preaching a OSAS message, because of these very passages. I believe in exhorting the church to make sure they really have, and continue in, the faith that saves.
The context of the whole passage doesn't fit your understanding. It fits mine perfectly. These people are being exhorted to continue in the gospel, (have faith), not observe a literal sabbath. Does God get mad at people who don't keep the sabbath and then tell them they can't as a result? No. Is salvation closed and inaccessable to those who don't enter into it because of unbelief? Yes, without a doubt.
"... but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' (Heb. 4:2-3)
You see, it's impossible to enter into the rest of salvation if you don't believe the gospel message. But me and you know there are many people who have entered into a literal Sabbath rest but who have no relationship with God whatsoever. Salvation 'rest' fits much better than sabbath day rest into the arguments presented in the passage.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
fast and pray at purposely set apart times as needed to seek the face of God
I don't know where we are told to fast and pray at set apart times...nobody here to my knowledge argues this. In fact this is part of what Paul discusses in Romans 14.
My point was, we all enter into the various disciplines of the faith. Literal law keepers don't do anything the rest of us don't do at one time or another. The contention between us is, "is the law that goverens the time and method for carrying out some of those disciplines still binding?" (the when, where, and how). I say no. The disciplines themselves endure. The rigid structure of the law to perform them in does not. As children, that structure had it's purpose. But now because of the abiding Holy Spirit it is no longer necessary to be under the supervision of that schoolmaster.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The scriptures you posted in your las thread, "...if we hold firmly until the end..." speaks of imo, of our remaining in Messiah. Now I know this get's OSAS...
Total agreement here, dude. That's why I say this is an exhortation to enter into the rest of salvation, not a literal sabbath observance which has no bearing on salvation whatsoever. It neither establishes salvation, nor proves you are saved. The warning the author uses to those who don't enter into the rest spoken of is not applicable to not keeping a sabbath day rest. This is a stern New Covenant warning for rejecting salvation, not a stern old covenant warning for not keeping a sabbath day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
My brother I still must humbly disagree with you, believe it or not, I actually enjoy reading your posts, as long as they are. You are very knowledgable and insightful, caring and sensitive. A well equipped minister of the salvation message of humanities need for a Saviour who has went to extraordinary lengths to redeem man from sin. Man, you would be dangerous if you really see just how beautiful Torah really is...you and alot of other folks.
I appreciate this gracious evaluation of my contributions here. Thank you. I hardly know how to respond to it.
I've been looking for an opportune time to back out of the forums and devote some needed attention to some personal and professional matters in my life right now. I'm going to seize that opportunity now. But, instead of bailing out altogether, I'll just make contributions if I can make them quickly.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2008 7:26:20 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Hello Bluethread with your last statement you have made great words to us. Who don't think like you. Have you become the great judge on the matter who loves God more? one other thing please have some facts to back up when you wrote that more die because of their belief in the seventh day than the first day.
What has that got to do with oberservence? Than people (doesn't matter what day) are evil and think of themselves all the time.
I said nothing about who loves Adonai more. I did make the conjecture, based on personal experience, that the average person who follows the generally accepted view is not as motivated to study the Scriptures as those who follow other practices that they are frequently asked to defend. I will search for documentation of the persecution of Sabbath keepers vs. Sunday keepers.
This is important because Sabbath keepers are quite often accused of forcing others to follow their practices. I do not think this is behavior is more prevalent among Sabbath keepers than it has been with Sunday keepers.
I'm not sure what you are saying in the second paragraph. However, I know of very few who hold "all days the same" in the literal sense of the term. So, it is more a disagreement on which days are holy than an argument on whether or not any days are holy.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2008 8:47:22 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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quote:
There is no special blessing for the person who does his good and beneficial things between those hours of the week--things that we all do.
I will say that there is a blessing for keeping Sabbath according to Isa. 56.
If you look at the teachings of Jesus in the gospels, He was constantly being berated for the things He did on the Sabbath. When He responded, He always it always provided true, practical Biblical insight which the believers is able to glean. You learn that the Sabbath was made for man. When confronted by the religious leaders, He constantly debunked their fence laws and giving insight into Sabbath true meaning. They had so many burdensome rules that weighed on people.
1)He stated that Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath (It was made for man...it didn't say "the Jew." Mark 2:27
2) That Messiah is Lord of the Sabbath day. Mat. 12:8, Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5
3) We know He healed and set folks free from physical infirmity a lot on the Sabbath. Mark 3:2; Luke 13:16; Luke 14:16; John 7:23
4) He taught on the Sabbath. Mark 6:2; Luke 4:31
5) He expounded on it purpose when the walked through the corn fields. It was certainly O.K. to satisfy hunger.
I might of missed some other "goodies" that we can learn from the Messiah regarding Sabbath.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2008 1:50:47 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 992
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
There is no special blessing for the person who does his good and beneficial things between those hours of the week--things that we all do.
I will say that there is a blessing for keeping Sabbath according to Isa. 56.
I understand the Sabbath requirement under the first covenant. That's not in contention. The passage tells us what we both already know--that it was a blessing to do what was required under that covenent. But what about now?
Admonition after admonition in the NT is about the "and keeps his hand from doing any evil" part of the promised blessing of Isaiah 56, even going into great detail about it. But it hardly even mentions the Sabbath except to establish chronology or defend against the accusations of the Pharisees (the point of which was not to teach Sabbath observance, but to dispel accusations of wrongdoing on Jesus's part). No purposeful teaching exists in the NT that I can remember that specifically and purposely addresses Sabbath observance in order to guide NT believers into that discipline. Unlike matters of divorce, and treatment of one another, even though Sabbath and personal relationship matters are both essential parts of the old covenant.
I hope I'm adequately communicating exactly the point I'm trying to make. Personal relationships get brought up apart from any circumstantial or situational context of the NT. Sabbath keeping gets brought up only as context provokes it's mention. I think we're majoring in a minor when we focus on the legalistic aspects of Sabbath keeping. As I've said, I have no beef against the disciplines of the faith, some of which are a part of the OT sabbath observance (congregating, setting aside time to seek God, etc.). It's the outdated legalisms of set times and procedures that we can move away from.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2008 4:49:12 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
As I've said, I have no beef against the disciplines of the faith, some of which are a part of the OT sabbath observance (congregating, setting aside time to seek God, etc.). It's the outdated legalisms of set times and procedures that we can move away from.
Emphasis Mine
Why can't one see the bold things as "legalisms". After all, some say they can "commune with nature" and others say they "walk with God all the time".
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2008 7:59:16 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 992
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
As I've said, I have no beef against the disciplines of the faith, some of which are a part of the OT sabbath observance (congregating, setting aside time to seek God, etc.). It's the outdated legalisms of set times and procedures that we can move away from.
Emphasis Mine
Why can't one see the bold things as "legalisms". After all, some say they can "commune with nature" and others say they "walk with God all the time".
You could have a legalistic attitude towards those things, but in and of themselves they are not legalistic things. But insisting on a particular time frame in which to perform those things and claiming it's the time that God blesses the most? That's legalism for those of us who understand the higher principles those OT worship restraints represented and pointed us toward.
I don't know how old you are, but do you still put the 'R-' to show the remainder of a long division problem (when you have to do a long division problem, that is). It was absolutely required by my 3rd grade teacher, but now I understand completely what that discipline was intended to do for me (not to mention that I'm also no longer under her authority). Now that I've learned from that discipline, I no longer need to do that legalistic labeling of the remainder and am now free to focus on the goal of my long division and not the textbook way to carry it out. Ditto for Sabbath keeping.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2008 6:51:01 AM
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bjay0801
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quote:
You could have a legalistic attitude towards those things, but in and of themselves they are not legalistic things. But insisting on a particular time frame in which to perform those things and claiming it's the time that God blesses the most? That's legalism for those of us who understand the higher principles those OT worship restraints represented and pointed us toward.
I don't know how old you are, but do you still put the 'R-' to show the remainder of a long division problem (when you have to do a long division problem, that is). It was absolutely required by my 3rd grade teacher, but now I understand completely what that discipline was intended to do for me (not to mention that I'm also no longer under her authority). Now that I've learned from that discipline, I no longer need to do that legalistic labeling of the remainder and am now free to focus on the goal of my long division and not the textbook way to carry it out. Ditto for Sabbath keeping.
I have a question then; so it's ok to be illeagal? Do we not continue to use math and science? Reading and writing? Or after we have learned to do those things we no longer need them?
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2008 9:34:19 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 992
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
quote:
You could have a legalistic attitude towards those things, but in and of themselves they are not legalistic things. But insisting on a particular time frame in which to perform those things and claiming it's the time that God blesses the most? That's legalism for those of us who understand the higher principles those OT worship restraints represented and pointed us toward.
I don't know how old you are, but do you still put the 'R-' to show the remainder of a long division problem (when you have to do a long division problem, that is). It was absolutely required by my 3rd grade teacher, but now I understand completely what that discipline was intended to do for me (not to mention that I'm also no longer under her authority). Now that I've learned from that discipline, I no longer need to do that legalistic labeling of the remainder and am now free to focus on the goal of my long division and not the textbook way to carry it out. Ditto for Sabbath keeping.
I have a question then; so it's ok to be illeagal? Do we not continue to use math and science? Reading and writing? Or after we have learned to do those things we no longer need them?
What do you mean by illegal? I tried to point out that I'm no longer under the authority of the teacher who established the requirement to put the 'R-' in front of the remainder of my division problems. IOW, it's no longer illegal, and thus punishable for me to not put the 'R-' in front of the remainder because I'm not under the authority of the teacher who required it. I'm not saying we don't have to do division anymore. I'm saying now that we know how to do division, it's foolish to think you can only do a division problem properly if you put the 'R-' in front of the remainder. For most of us adults that would actually be a hinderance.
Nobody's advocating breaking the law. We have been released from the authority of the schoolmaster, the law and now serve in the new way of the Spirit. Some of the requirements of the law are also requirements in the Spirit in the same way that division itself is still required of us as adults, but writing out the 'R-' is not.
Do you still speak out load when you read? Or guide your reading with your finger? I hope not. Those required disciplines were valuable when we were children learning how to read. How silly it would have been to presume that those things were what the teacher was trying to teach us and were actually the goal of our instruction. But we know those disciplines were only intended to get us to what really counts--reading. It was all about learning how to read, not how to perfect the discipline of using our speech and our finger to help us read. I see the legalisms of the timetables and procedures of the law as the unnecessary perfecting of the disciplines used to lead us to what really counts.
The letter of the OT worship laws (the where, when, and how) were the disciplines of our childhood (spiritually speaking of course). But now that faith has come we no longer need to fulfill the exact letter of the law of those laws. We aren't even under the supervision of those laws anymore.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2008 11:37:07 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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Bluethread,
quote:
I said nothing about who loves Adonai more. I did make the conjecture, based on personal experience, that the average person who follows the generally accepted view is not as motivated to study the Scriptures as those who follow other practices that they are frequently asked to defend. I will search for documentation of the persecution of Sabbath keepers vs. Sunday keepers.
When I read your post I recieved that from you. If that not be the case then I am sorry for reading to much into it.
What does it matter who has been persecuted more?
The thought of anyone hurting another it is replusive.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 3:26:29 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Bluethread,
quote:
I said nothing about who loves Adonai more. I did make the conjecture, based on personal experience, that the average person who follows the generally accepted view is not as motivated to study the Scriptures as those who follow other practices that they are frequently asked to defend. I will search for documentation of the persecution of Sabbath keepers vs. Sunday keepers.
What does it matter who has been persecuted more?
The thought of anyone hurting another it is replusive.
I was responding to the accusation that some Sabbath keepers persecute those who don't keep Shabbat. Some believe not observing Shabbat as a capital offense after due process in a Torah observant society as cruel and unusual punishment. I was just pointing out that throughout history it has been more usual for people to be persecuted for observing Shabbat than for not doing so. Therefore, apart from the Scriptures cruel is a relative term and capital punishment is in no way unusual.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 4:20:22 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
As I've said, I have no beef against the disciplines of the faith, some of which are a part of the OT sabbath observance (congregating, setting aside time to seek God, etc.). It's the outdated legalisms of set times and procedures that we can move away from.
Emphasis Mine
Why can't one see the bold things as "legalisms". After all, some say they can "commune with nature" and others say they "walk with God all the time".
You could have a legalistic attitude towards those things, but in and of themselves they are not legalistic things. But insisting on a particular time frame in which to perform those things and claiming it's the time that God blesses the most? That's legalism for those of us who understand the higher principles those OT worship restraints represented and pointed us toward.
I don't know how old you are, but do you still put the 'R-' to show the remainder of a long division problem (when you have to do a long division problem, that is). It was absolutely required by my 3rd grade teacher, but now I understand completely what that discipline was intended to do for me (not to mention that I'm also no longer under her authority). Now that I've learned from that discipline, I no longer need to do that legalistic labeling of the remainder and am now free to focus on the goal of my long division and not the textbook way to carry it out. Ditto for Sabbath keeping.
Yes, rabbi Spongee, "for those of us who understand the higher principles", those principles may be valuable. However, those of us who do not claim our interpretations are "hard and fast" principles from Adonai, the timing of an act can be just as valuable as the act itself. If you don't wish to enjoy the blessings of Shabbat as I do, I understand. However, that does not mean I don't receive those blessings and, as the lepers who enjoyed the spoils of the Arameans said, I say, "We're not doing right. This is a day of good news and we are keeping it to ourselves."
To answer your analogy, yes I do use my finger to guide my reading. It has been proven that if one does this one reads more quickly with greater comprehension. Now, the rule of 'R' and using one's finger to read are not your teacher, but are the commands of your teacher. In the same way it is Adonai who is the authority not the commands. Therefore, since I am still under Adonai's authority, I keep Shabbat as He commands. As I have said with regard to other Scripture, it is dangerous to claim to only be obligated to keep the purpose as one understands it. Many use this way of thinking to justify many things, like abortion, homosexuality and socialism. All one needs to do is interpret the purpose to fit. This is using interpretation to define Scripture rather than using Scripture to define interpretation.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 10:53:58 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 992
Joined: 12/9/2006
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Oh, the balls in my court now...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...those of us who do not claim our interpretations are "hard and fast" principles from Adonai, the timing of an act can be just as valuable as the act itself. If you don't wish to enjoy the blessings of Shabbat as I do, I understand. However, that does not mean I don't receive those blessings and, as the lepers who enjoyed the spoils of the Arameans said, I say, "We're not doing right. This is a day of good news and we are keeping it to ourselves."
It's interesting how one's mindset does in fact change what one sees in scripture. When you see the word 'day' you think 'Sabbath'. When I see 'day' I see the time of Christ's appearance and the 'good news' (the gospel) of the 'day' that has dawned. I also noticed that you had a hard time thinking out of the messianic box in regard to leaven. Leaven doesn't always have to be in the context of the Feast. But I suppose it's hard not to think that if one is taught to concentrate on the external procedures of the law instead of thinking about how to be a new (unleavened) loaf of bread, where that is the case. I know you see them as one and the same thing. They are not. Paul's discourse on circumcision proves that very point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Now, the rule of 'R' and using one's finger to read are not your teacher, but are the commands of your teacher.
That's almost the point I was trying to make. In any matter of instruction it's ridiculous to lose sight of the goal that the learning device seeks to fulfill and make the learning device itself the desired goal. But that's what some people do with the OT worship requirements.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it is Adonai who is the authority not the commands. Therefore, since I am still under Adonai's authority, I keep Shabbat as He commands.
We are not under the authority of the law anymore. We are under the authority of the Holy Spirit. I know that doesn't make sense to you because you see them as one and the same thing. I've been trying to show you that they are not one and the same thing as you understand that. Messianics don't make the proper disconnect between the law of the old covenant and the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant, even though Paul makes that disconnect in his teachings.
We are no longer under the law but under the Holy Spirit. Yet obviously both are of God, and the Holy Spirit seeks to fulfill the underlying intent and purpose of the law. You (and others) have demonstrated to me that fulfillment of the law must occur literally even though I've showed you proofs that it can indeed be fulfilled legitimately in a non-literal way (circumcision/ animal sacrifice for sin).
Paul said the law is not based on faith. Faith and law are two separate concepts that must be seen as such, even though to you the law is faith. Not true. This melding together of terms, like Jesus = truth/ law = truth/ so Jesus = law, is misguided and causes a person to miss the difference God wants us to see and which leads us to true fulfillment of the law. It's ironic, but literal keeping of the law does not equate to fulfillment of the law. The Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of the law, not the law itself. Pure irony.
The law is one aspect of God revealed to us for a specific purpose. The gospel is another. They are actually opposed to each other, but you see them as one and the same. I don't know if that's because you were taught that, or whether it's because you by nature just can't think in more abstract ways and easily grasp intangible figures and symbolisms. I'm not putting you down. I've just noticed people in your camp generally are like that. I wonder if this is just how you're wired and thats what makes it hard to move away from the literalism of the old covenant.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As I have said with regard to other Scripture, it is dangerous to claim to only be obligated to keep the purpose as one understands it. Many use this way of thinking to justify many things, like abortion, homosexuality and socialism. All one needs to do is interpret the purpose to fit. This is using interpretation to define Scripture rather than using Scripture to define interpretation.
It's strange how 'hard and fast' gets dismissed by some to defend the things that really are hard and fast (murder, adultery, etc.), and no one here is going to defend that kind of foolishness. If anything I'd put the argument this way: Torah camp seems to put the 'hard and fast' emphasis in the wrong place. I prefer (and I think the Bible teaches) to put the 'hard and fast' on matters of character, not the 'how, when, and where' of correct worhip of God in our churches.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 7:58:04 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Oh, the balls in my court now...
Usually when one speaks of a court, one is talking about tennis or handball not asteroids. I will try to follow you as you drift across the screen.
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It's interesting how one's mindset does in fact change what one sees in scripture. When you see the word 'day' you think 'Sabbath'. When I see 'day' I see the time of Christ's appearance and the 'good news' (the gospel) of the 'day' that has dawned.
What is actually being talked about it the passage is the day of the good news of deliverance from seige and starvation. This could very well be used to refer to an time one has good news to share. That said, no where in the Scriptures is the day of the resurrection recognized as any different from any other day. However, for those who find joy in that day, I do not stop those persons from sharing that joy.
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I also noticed that you had a hard time thinking out of the messianic box in regard to leaven. Leaven doesn't always have to be in the context of the Feast. But I suppose it's hard not to think that if one is taught to concentrate on the external procedures of the law instead of thinking about how to be a new (unleavened) loaf of bread, where that is the case. I know you see them as one and the same thing. They are not. Paul's discourse on circumcision proves that very point.
I have no problem seeing leavwen as something other than actual leaven. I know Yeshua was telling us to be holy as the showbread is holy. That is set apart for special use and therefore not having the puffed up nature of those who equate their interpertations of the Scriptures with the Scriptures themselves. For example, some of us perform circumcision in accordance with the Scriptures and move on, while others appear to spend much fo their lives obsessed with their members.
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In any matter of instruction it's ridiculous to lose sight of the goal that the learning device seeks to fulfill and make the learning device itself the desired goal. But that's what some people do with the OT worship requirements.
Then maybe you should talk to "some people" about that. I do not think I am doing that. Whenever, I keep the commandments of rememberance, I reflect on those things it represents. If I do not do them in perfect agreement with rabbinic interpretation, that is no big deal.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it is Adonai who is the authority not the commands. Therefore, since I am still under Adonai's authority, I keep Shabbat as He commands.
We are not under the authority of the law anymore. We are under the authority of the Holy Spirit. I know that doesn't make sense to you because you see them as one and the same thing. I've been trying to show you that they are not one and the same thing as you understand that.
I am a little confused. Aren't "...it is Adonai who is the authority not the commands." and "We are not under the authority of the law anymore. We are under the authority of the Holy Spirit." saying the same thing, of course without the "anymore" part.
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Messianics don't make the proper disconnect between the law of the old covenant and the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant, even though Paul makes that disconnect in his teachings.
Again, as you define "Messianics" and the "Holy Spirit".
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We are no longer under the law but under the Holy Spirit. Yet obviously both are of God, and the Holy Spirit seeks to fulfill the underlying intent and purpose of the law. You (and others) have demonstrated to me that fulfillment of the law must occur literally even though I've showed you proofs that it can indeed be fulfilled legitimately in a non-literal way (circumcision/ animal sacrifice for sin).
"Circumcision/ animal sacrifice for sin" do not fulfill the law as you appear to define fulfill. Yes, they are illustrative actions that Adonai gives us to represent that which the law does illustrate, the fullness of Adonai and His promised plan of salvation and rightious living.
Out of time. I shall return.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 8:57:41 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 992
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
It's interesting how one's mindset does in fact change what one sees in scripture. When you see the word 'day' you think 'Sabbath'. When I see 'day' I see the time of Christ's appearance and the 'good news' (the gospel) of the 'day' that has dawned.
What is actually being talked about it the passage is the day of the good news of deliverance from seige and starvation. This could very well be used to refer to an time one has good news to share.
That's exactly what makes the event so much like the 'good news' of the salvation we have in Christ, not the 'good news' of the literal Sabbath requirement (as if that were some kind of good news?).
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...That said, no where in the Scriptures is the day of the resurrection recognized as any different from any other day. However, for those who find joy in that day, I do not stop those persons from sharing that joy.
See, you are so locked into a 'days of the week' way of thinking you can't see the 'day' we speak of as the time of Christ's appearing and the subsequent preaching of the good news of that appearing. It's a period of time in history, which we are now in, not the day of the week he was resurrected on. And those who believe are 'keeping' that Sabbath--the true Sabbath rest for mankind.
The Sabbath rest for us non-messianics is salvation itself, not Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday... Apparently, before Constantine, and even the Catholic Church as it became to be known, some believers started to meet on Sunday's to commemorate Christ's appearing in the world. I have some interesting perspectives to share about that as time permits.
I too shall return...
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 11:49:38 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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I know we have gone over the great tchapter of Romans 14. Yet we seem to forget what Paul writes in the end of that thought.
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemn if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
I know this has nothing to do with a day but the same text it goes with it because of the thought pattern Paul has in his mind.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 2:25:51 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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To finish the last post:
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Paul said the law is not based on faith. Faith and law are two separate concepts that must be seen as such, even though to you the law is faith. Not true. This melding together of terms, like Jesus = truth/ law = truth/ so Jesus = law, is misguided and causes a person to miss the difference God wants us to see and which leads us to true fulfillment of the law. It's ironic, but literal keeping of the law does not equate to fulfillment of the law. The Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of the law, not the law itself. Pure irony.
The law is one aspect of God revealed to us for a specific purpose. The gospel is another. They are actually opposed to each other, but you see them as one and the same. I don't know if that's because you were taught that, or whether it's because you by nature just can't think in more abstract ways and easily grasp intangible figures and symbolisms. I'm not putting you down. I've just noticed people in your camp generally are like that. I wonder if this is just how you're wired and thats what makes it hard to move away from the literalism of the old covenant.
It appears that you are dealing with apparent contradictions by creating a dicotomy in Adonai's revelation. I am not saying Adonai's revelation is Adonai. I am saying that Adonai's revelation is intended to reveal to use the nature of Adonai and His relationship with us. Therefore, I do not see grace and the written law as the same thing.
Grace is Adonai's unmerited favor(blessing). The written Torah is a record of how Adonai's grace is applied to man. Now, by studying the written Torah, as directed by Adonai's Spirit, we come to a better understanding of Ha Torah(The true nature of Adonai). To help us better understand, among other things, Ha Torah became flesh and dwelt among us as Matthew tells us.
Now, we need to be careful to stay on the topic of Shabbat here. In this context. It is not necessary that every reference to "the day" refers to the day some believe the ressurection took place. In fact the day that Paul refers to when He tells us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as we see "the day" approaching, is a day in the future.
Now for the new post. By the way, what I say in response to the new post does not do away with my responses to the old post. 
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
What is actually being talked about it the passage is the day of the good news of deliverance from seige and starvation. This could very well be used to refer to an time one has good news to share.
That's exactly what makes the event so much like the 'good news' of the salvation we have in Christ, not the 'good news' of the literal Sabbath requirement (as if that were some kind of good news?).
Based on what I said before, when I say, it is not right for me to keep quiet regarding the blessings(good news) I recieve from Shabbat, I am not saying that the blessings we receive from the day of the resurrection are not also good news. In fact, I believe that the day Yeshua rose from the dead was Shabbat.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...That said, no where in the Scriptures is the day of the resurrection recognized as any different from any other day. However, for those who find joy in that day, I do not stop those persons from sharing that joy.
See, you are so locked into a 'days of the week' way of thinking you can't see the 'day' we speak of as the time of Christ's appearing and the subsequent preaching of the good news of that appearing. It's a period of time in history, which we are now in, not the day of the week he was resurrected on. And those who believe are 'keeping' that Sabbath--the true Sabbath rest for mankind.
No, it is you who is obsessing over the word day. I am talking about sharing ones blessings. One of those blessings just happens to be Shabbat.
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The Sabbath rest for us non-messianics is salvation itself, not Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday... Apparently, before Constantine, and even the Catholic Church as it became to be known, some believers started to meet on Sunday's to commemorate Christ's appearing in the world. I have some interesting perspectives to share about that as time permits.
I also believe we rest from the penalty of sin. However, the concept of eternal Sabbath is an oximoron. If one is resting all of the time, there is no Sabbath. There is a rest, but that is not Shabbat.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 3:43:25 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I know we have gone over the great tchapter of Romans 14. Yet we seem to forget what Paul writes in the end of that thought.
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemn if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
I know this has nothing to do with a day but the same text it goes with it because of the thought pattern Paul has in his mind.
That is true and we are also told, (Jas 4:17) "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."
Also, avoiding the issue so one can claim ignorance is not an option. Paul tells us, (2Ti 2:15) "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 5:55:20 PM
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