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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 6:20:50 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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McLeod, you are very hilarius and sarcastic  . If you want to formulate a checklist of sorts and meet with some couples, then check off, "I kept the Sabbath today, LBolt and Blue would be proud of me"...go right ahead! You might be the only one. To my knowledge no one is going around with a checklist seeing if we met this command, or that command...
we have been conversing for almost 9+ months and you haven't discerned our heart or sentiments yet? Well, we've only conversed via the computer and not face to face and as such we have no means of truly knowing each other. Unless the LORD gave you a dream or vision of the way the other person is. Barring any of these, I believe that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks or the fingers type! LOL
I believe that you as well as some others are seeing what you want to see in us and lump us into this legalist box of sorts...That we are so bent on Sabbath, Dietary laws...that we negate the aspect of caring for our fellow man. That we are relating to God through these things as some kind of barometer to our intimacy and closeness to Him. We do what we do because we love Him and desire to obey His voice, which is His His word and we desire other to do the say. That's all! So you can spare you self and us the time and energy of posting and reading these kinds of threads because it does not reflect the heart of those who believe as I do and follow His Torah.
Take care and God bless!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 10:04:06 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
McLeod, you are very hilarius and sarcastic . If you want to formulate a checklist of sorts and meet with some couples, then check off, "I kept the Sabbath today, LBolt and Blue would be proud of me"...go right ahead! You might be the only one. To my knowledge no one is going around with a checklist seeing if we met this command, or that command...
we have been conversing for almost 9+ months and you haven't discerned our heart or sentiments yet? Well, we've only conversed via the computer and not face to face and as such we have no means of truly knowing each other. Unless the LORD gave you a dream or vision of the way the other person is. Barring any of these, I believe that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks or the fingers type! LOL
I believe that you as well as some others are seeing what you want to see in us and lump us into this legalist box of sorts...That we are so bent on Sabbath, Dietary laws...that we negate the aspect of caring for our fellow man. That we are relating to God through these things as some kind of barometer to our intimacy and closeness to Him. We do what we do because we love Him and desire to obey His voice, which is His His word and we desire other to do the say. That's all! So you can spare you self and us the time and energy of posting and reading these kinds of threads because it does not reflect the heart of those who believe as I do and follow His Torah.
Take care and God bless!
I am not trying to be sarcastic nor rude if I show that please for give me. But what I read when you guys write sounds like a Islam approach. Which if I tip the scales to the good then I recieve eternal life. I respect that you guys want to do these out landish things for God. But he wants is that you trust him everyday of your life.
I know of people who think somewhat like you do and they can come up with some ridiculous thought patterns. The problem they have and won't probably agree to is they don't put their trust in the Lord. If you ask if they do they would say" yes my God Ido". But their actions and words say totally different.
I am not trying to hang Blue nor you on these two subjects. It's what I see when people get caught up in the works sytem.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 10:07:36 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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Say Blue thread,
quote:
That is good, but it does not recognize the commandment. One would have to then ask is it alright to refer to Adonai by the name Satan as long as I know in my heart who I am talking about. You tell me.
You lost me so were are even . Where did Icome up with satan's name in that post?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 10:30:35 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
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Bluethread,
I posted my response to your post #2969 in the Keep the Law thread, in keeping with CW rules for discussion.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 3:08:31 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
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quote:
However, to enrich oneself on Shabbat seems to me to violate the law as it is clarified by Yeshua. In a Torah observant society such roles would be filled by volunteers. This is not impractical, for even some small secular communities do this, they just do it all the time due to a lack of professionals and not as mitzvot on Shabbat.
So you agree that is permissable to work on Sabbath as a doctor, etc. if one doesnt get paid for it, did i get you right?
Would you also agree that such people would be not less pleasing to God ?
I would appreciate if , as i asked before we could talk about more practical aspects of SAbbath keeping- so far all the debates been in abstract sense, Keeping Sabbath vs. Not keeping it.
What do you mean by Keeping, in practicality? Anybody wishes to share?
quote:
I hope you don't mind that I am restricting myself to examples directly from Torah as interpreted by Yeshua. There are more and sometimes clearer examples from the Apostles, but I do not want to taint the experiment, lest those who reject Torah accuse me of violating it.
Yes, i agree but if we wish to talk about practicality of Sabbath keeping we cant limit ourselves to pulling sheep out of the well but talk about todays realities. I believe i can share a lot on the subject.
quote:
By the way thanks for the compliment. However, it is the straight forward and logical nature of your inquiries, combined with your faith in my motives that make it easy for me to answer them in a clear and straight forward manner. you are welcome. I dont have a shadow of a doubt your motives are only sharing your view of enriching a person's relationship with God and being pleasing to God.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 3:12:47 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I believe that you as well as some others are seeing what you want to see in us and lump us into this legalist box of sorts...That we are so bent on Sabbath, Dietary laws...that we negate the aspect of caring for our fellow man. That we are relating to God through these things as some kind of barometer to our intimacy and closeness to Him. We do what we do because we love Him and desire to obey His voice, which is His His word and we desire other to do the say.
Sorry you got the wrong impression, dear L. While there are legalists in chirstianity and messianism , but we dont doubt that you are loving, caring and worry about The Spirit of the LAw not just the Letter.
THat is not under the debate. What we are trying to get out of your camp is why should others do that?may i mention, neither you no anybody else yet took the time to explain what do you actually see as Sabbath keeping, in practicality? 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 3:46:53 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...I would appreciate if , as i asked before we could talk about more practical aspects of SAbbath keeping- so far all the debates been in abstract sense, Keeping Sabbath vs. Not keeping it.
What do you mean by Keeping, in practicality? Anybody wishes to share?
...if we wish to talk about practicality of Sabbath keeping we cant limit ourselves to pulling sheep out of the well but talk about todays realities. I believe i can share a lot on the subject.
I've been anxious to hear what Odie has to share in this regard, too. I've played the whole scenario out in my mind of what it would look like if I decided to conform to a letter of the law Torah 0bservance, and truthfully, I can't nail down what that should really look like. That's why I've decided it's all just a mater of personal/ denominational preference and ultimately what it boils down to is just a desire to keep literal Torah, which ends up just being how you want to do it. Which we are all most certainly entitled to. I just got a problem with people telling other people they have a lower position among the people of God after the resurrection because they didn't observe the OT feasts and Sabbaths, dietary laws, etc. That sounds like cow poo-poo to me.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/17/2008 11:17:42 AM
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LBolt
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Hey Odie, here's an interesting article by a gentleman named Todd Bennett.
quote:
What Do We Do On The Sabbath?
After coming to the realization that the Sabbath is an important commandment which
must be obeyed the next logical step for most individuals is to seek out how to obey the
Sabbath commandments
A first step is to look at the specific commandments concerning what is required and or
prohibited.
The next step is to evaluate our lives and determine what we do on the day and whether is
appropriate or inappropriate for this set apart day.
The primary Commandment concerning the Sabbath is the Fourth Commandment which
reads as follows:
“8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your
work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH your Elohim. In it you shall do no
work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female
servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days
YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the
seventh day. Therefore YHWH blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart.” Exodus 20:8-11.
The other commandment concerning the Sabbath is found in Leviticus (Vayiqra). “Six
days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation. You
shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of YHWH in all your dwellings.” Leviticus
(Vayiqra) 23:3.
Notice both call it Holy and both state NO work is to be done
This is something that we see on Yom Kippur – possibly the Holiest Day of the year but
this prohibition of NO work stands in stark contrast to the other High Days which
prohibit “servile” or “customary” work.
* First and Last days of Feast of Unleavened Bread - Lev 23:7-8
* Feast of Shavuot - Lev 23:21
* Feast of Trumpets – Lev. 23:23
* First and Last Day of the Feast of Tabernacles - Lev 23:34-36
The Hebrew word used concerning the Sabbath and Yom Kippur is malakha (hkalm)
which generally means business or enterprise.
This is different from the other high days which prohibit maleket abadah (hdbu tkalm)
which generally refers to work in the service of others or “servile work.”
Therefore it appears that you should not have anyone working for you nor should you be
working for someone else or yourself on the Sabbath (Shabbat).
This seems straightforward enough but besides work it is also called holy – qadosh (vdq)
which means “set apart” and a holy convocation – kadosh miqra (arqm vdq) which
means a set apart rehearsal.
So what are we rehearsing on Shabbat? There was a pattern established on the first week
of creation. In Genesis (Beresheet) 2:1-3 we read:
“1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the
seventh day Elohim ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh
day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and
sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which Elohim had created and
made.”
Notice that Elohim rested from “all His work” on the seventh day of creation – the first
Shabbat.
So then what do we do if we are resting from ALL of our work?
There is no formula, no list of do’s and don’ts unless you follow Talmudic Law, which I
believe is missing the point entirely.
The Prophet Isaiah (Yeshayahu) proclaimed:
“13 If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on My set
apart day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the set apart day of YHWH honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure,
nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in YHWH;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.” Isaiah (Yeshayahu) 58:13-14.
It appears that we need to take this one day and set aside our own pleasures which are
hapatseeka (iyxpj) which means: “delight, desire or purpose.” Instead we are
encouraged to: “tit’anag (gnutt) in YHWH” which is also often translated as “delight”
but more accurately refers to being: “soft, pliable and delicate in YHWH.”
So what does it mean to: “tit’anag (gnutt) in YHWH?”
We find an answer in the Psalms (Tehillim):
“3 Trust in YHWH, and do good; dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness. 4 Delight
yourself also in YHWH, and He shall give you the desires of your heart. 5 Commit your
way to YHWH, trust also in Him, and He shall bring it to pass. 6 He shall bring forth your
righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday. 7 Rest in YHWH, and wait
patiently for Him; do not fret because of him who prospers in his way, because of the
man who brings wicked schemes to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath; do not
fret — it only causes harm. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off; but those who wait on
YHWH, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no
more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, but it shall be no more. 11 But the
meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”
Psalms (Tehillim) 37:3-11.
This passage should give anyone enough to chew on for a long time.
The point of the Sabbath is not to limit a person or make them miserable by imposing
restrictions on their movement or activities. To the contrary, it involves focusing our
sights on Him and allowing Him to make the necessary changes so that He can lift us up
to a higher place where we find his bounty and blessings.
If we approach the Sabbath with that in mind, it should not be a problem determining
how to spend this set apart day.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 12:59:03 PM
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mcleod
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LBolt that is a very interesting article which you have copied from trhe author . What again becomes the thing is that the other six days they could not get it right. Which God is saying through the prophet.
So again we are all in the ship and we seem to think because we do this and this we can get this from God. And forget about what God states. Which he tells us is to act justly everyday of the week. Show mercy 24/7, well as long as we are awake. Also lift the yoke off of the oppress in the world. Again it joggles my mind and I am also guilty of it also. We do not speak out against those who are very evil. You have I have something from China in our house. Which believes in slave labor of kids, no freedom of religion and bunch of other wrong things. Yet we empower them everyday by america trading with them.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 2:03:52 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Say Blue thread,
quote:
That is good, but it does not recognize the commandment. One would have to then ask is it alright to refer to Adonai by the name Satan as long as I know in my heart who I am talking about. You tell me.
You lost me so were are even . Where did Icome up with satan's name in that post?
If I understand you right, you are saying that an idenfying mark of Adonai's people, Shabbat, is any day or all days, as long as we have the proper additude. My point is that if an identifying mark does not need to be specific, we are also "free" to identify Adonai by any name or all names, as long as we have the proper additude. So, refering to Adonai as Allah, Krishna, Gaya, or Satan is fine as long as we have the proper additude? Notice I said an identifying mark not the idenifying mark. I don't want us to lose focus.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 2:21:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
So you agree that is permissable to work on Sabbath as a doctor, etc. if one doesnt get paid for it, did i get you right?
Would you also agree that such people would be not less pleasing to God ?
In my view that would be more consistant with the commandment. In fact, Yeshua tells us this is more in keeping with Shabbat than is the ignoring of the needs of others for the convenience of ones own religious rituals.
quote:
What do you mean by Keeping, in practicality? Anybody wishes to share?
Contrary to the view of some, the major problems with keeping Shabbat are related to what Ha Torah does not say. There are really very few specifics in the Scriptures regarding how to keep Shabbat. We do know that gathering wood for ones own use is not permitted. Adonai made that clear with a specific example. However, such hard and fast rules are rare in Ha Torah. So, "the hard and fast literal" view of keeping Shabbat is mainly the invention of some rabbis(theologians) and those who oppose the keeping of Shabbat.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 7:50:49 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Say Blue thread,
quote:
That is good, but it does not recognize the commandment. One would have to then ask is it alright to refer to Adonai by the name Satan as long as I know in my heart who I am talking about. You tell me.
You lost me so were are even . Where did Icome up with satan's name in that post?
If I understand you right, you are saying that an idenfying mark of Adonai's people, Shabbat, is any day or all days, as long as we have the proper additude. My point is that if an identifying mark does not need to be specific, we are also "free" to identify Adonai by any name or all names, as long as we have the proper additude. So, refering to Adonai as Allah, Krishna, Gaya, or Satan is fine as long as we have the proper additude? Notice I said an identifying mark not the idenifying mark. I don't want us to lose focus.
Okay wait a second you have mention other types of religions. The problem with those other religions is that they have a self centered pattern in them.
Where christians are to not be self centered thinking of only themselves.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 7:54:08 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
So you agree that is permissable to work on Sabbath as a doctor, etc. if one doesnt get paid for it, did i get you right?
Would you also agree that such people would be not less pleasing to God ?
In my view that would be more consistant with the commandment. In fact, Yeshua tells us this is more in keeping with Shabbat than is the ignoring of the needs of others for the convenience of ones own religious rituals.
quote:
What do you mean by Keeping, in practicality? Anybody wishes to share?
Contrary to the view of some, the major problems with keeping Shabbat are related to what Ha Torah does not say. There are really very few specifics in the Scriptures regarding how to keep Shabbat. We do know that gathering wood for ones own use is not permitted. Adonai made that clear with a specific example. However, such hard and fast rules are rare in Ha Torah. So, "the hard and fast literal" view of keeping Shabbat is mainly the invention of some rabbis(theologians) and those who oppose the keeping of Shabbat.
And I caught you in this one playing a rabbi law maker . You know the ones which you said was part of the oral laws of the Torah.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 6:14:57 PM
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CarlaJames
Posts: 40
Joined: 5/30/2005
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In all of these hundred of pages this may have been addressed, but I'm not going to read all these pages LOL...
What do you say to a preacher? Sunday is a work day to him. He has to get up early and prepare and yes, depending on what church it is, he might even get paid for it.
Our pastor works hard on Sunday. He has two sermons and meetings all day. He said the Bible never really says what day to observe so he picked Tuesdays. He feels like as long as you take a day it's okay.
So.....what about the preachers, decons, etc.....Sundays are work days for them.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 6:56:36 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If I understand you right, you are saying that an idenfying mark of Adonai's people, Shabbat, is any day or all days, as long as we have the proper additude. My point is that if an identifying mark does not need to be specific, we are also "free" to identify Adonai by any name or all names, as long as we have the proper additude. So, refering to Adonai as Allah, Krishna, Gaya, or Satan is fine as long as we have the proper additude? Notice I said an identifying mark not the idenifying mark. I don't want us to lose focus.
Okay wait a second you have mention other types of religions. The problem with those other religions is that they have a self centered pattern in them.
Where christians are to not be self centered thinking of only themselves.
I didn't mention other religions, I mentioned names that other religions happen to use when refering to their god. Just as you refered to days that othewr religions use to identify themselves with other gods. If the specifics don't really matter then that is merely circumstancial. Everyone knows what we mean right?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:01:00 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CarlaJames
In all of these hundred of pages this may have been addressed, but I'm not going to read all these pages LOL...
What do you say to a preacher? Sunday is a work day to him. He has to get up early and prepare and yes, depending on what church it is, he might even get paid for it.
Our pastor works hard on Sunday. He has two sermons and meetings all day. He said the Bible never really says what day to observe so he picked Tuesdays. He feels like as long as you take a day it's okay.
So.....what about the preachers, decons, etc.....Sundays are work days for them.
Ha Torah exempts priests when they are serving, because they are serving. They are not supposed to working for themselves while in the Temple.
That said, I do not believe this exception applies to professional ministers. I personally do not believe in professional ministers. The Scriptures do not require elaberate worship services. I also believe that the convocations refered to in Ha Torah are self sustaining gatherings in which everyone accepts the responsibility to see thing go well. My view is that these gatherings are usually small groups. I know there is a lot of interpretation here, but as I said before, the hardest part of Shabbat is dealing with what the scripures do not say.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 1:07:09 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
I didn't mention other religions, I mentioned names that other religions happen to use when refering to their god. Just as you refered to days that othewr religions use to identify themselves with other gods. If the specifics don't really matter then that is merely circumstancial. Everyone knows what we mean right?
I sure hope so. 
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2008 2:41:25 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Sure, thanks L, that was thoughtful of you. I appreciate the article, that fellow Bennett
quote:
The point of the Sabbath is not to limit a person or make them miserable by imposing
restrictions on their movement or activities.
clearly his not stupid! "For a gentile boy he is downright brilliant",as my aunt Dalit, God give her days, would say.
quote:
To the contrary, it involves focusing our sights on Him and allowing Him to make the necessary changes so that He can lift us up to a higher place where we find his bounty and blessings.
But now he stops at the most interesting place and getting too vague - so what is the actual Sabbath keeping routine he proposes?
See, why I am asking this – because the Sabbath keeping,dating, driving a car, parenting, and playing football or other sports game, etc. all have interesting thing in common: debating it in Theory is very, very different then actually doing it in Practice.So while I greatly appreciate the article the q-n remains- what and how?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2008 8:41:28 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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That's between you and Elohim, my dear!! I believe that's what Sha'ul had in mind in Collosians where it say's not to let people judge you in respect to Sabbath, festival...
Why would parenting be a issue?
What? Obviously attending the convocation as per the scriptures. Lev. 23...
How? We see a clue when you read the Gospels and Acts...They read from the Torah, Neviim and Khetuvim and expounded upon and preached the word. Praise, prayer and worship is highly appropiate. Messiah healed the sick on Sabbath...which of course could be done any other day. There is no "magic" scripture which tells you all the do's and don'ts. There are some specifics, which have been pointed out.
I can't give you a "bunch" of lists and then tell you, by doing this you are "keeping the Sabbath!!" Nope! If someone wants to play football or drive...that's between you and your loving Creator!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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