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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 2:43:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4522
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Calv/Ref people are so varied in what y'all believe, it's hard to get your theology straight.
Given your disregard for what is plainly stated the issue is not with others...
quote:
I say that if HE offered salvation to a few arbitrarily for no reason except that He just wanted to, it is only just(not fare) that He offer it to all arbitrarily, for no reason.
If He doesn't, He is being partial.
Your view assumes that God is biased towards one over another based on something other than His will and purpose... It's not partial if He picks and chooses according to His perfect will and council...
John
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 2:48:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Free will? hardly. But only those born again of the Holy Spirit know how much power God has in the world.
Who are you referring to here? Just Calvinists?
quote:
The rest think it's their own will that makes the decisions of the universe.
And who would these be? The non-calvinists? 
btw, why haven't you answered my post 32315 about your silly comment that "more people in hell" makes your salvation "more valuable"?
Also, you failed to answer my post 32312. Did God fail in what He created man to do?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 2:50:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Jeremiah 20:7-9, "I am ridiculed all day long: everyone mocks me for preaching violence and destruction, So the Word of the Lord has brought me insult and reproach all day long. But when I say, 'I will no longer speak his name, his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot."
here, Jeremiah clearly didn't want to speak God's Word. In fact in verses 14-18, Jeremiah wished that he had never been born. So if he had a choice, he wouldn't have chosen to be a prophet. But as he tells us in verse 7; "You overpowered me and prevailed" God's power in him compelled him to speak His Word and there was nothing that Jeremiah could do about it except to die.
Paul also tells us the same thing in Romans 7:13-25 and Acts 20:22, the Spirit compels those in whom God put him, to do His will as Ezekiel 36:27 explains as well.
Free will? hardly. But only those born again of the Holy Spirit know how much power God has in the world. The rest think it's their own will that makes the decisions of the universe. They couldn't be further from the truth. 
Lets forget free will for now please.
What I am struggling with is understanding what is the
practical purpose of prayer for an eternal decreeist?
I am using this term "eternal decreeist" distinctly from Calvinism.
So lets just stick to prayer for the moment.
I want you to explain to me how you can rectify what the Bible
says about prayer in light of eternal decreeism.
Lets just take one Scripture at a time and start with:
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves,
and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways,
then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal
their land. 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive
to prayer made in this place. 2Chr 7
IF his people do something (repent and pray) THEN God will listen.
What sense does this make if it has all been predetermined?
rw, of course it won't make any sense from the RT pov, but the only response you'll get from Carico is that you just don't believe the Bible (because you don't believe RT theology).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 2:54:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Calv/Ref people are so varied in what y'all believe, it's hard to get your theology straight.
Given your disregard for what is plainly stated the issue is not with others...
quote:
I say that if HE offered salvation to a few arbitrarily for no reason except that He just wanted to, it is only just(not fare) that He offer it to all arbitrarily, for no reason.
If He doesn't, He is being partial.
Your view assumes that God is biased towards one over another based on something other than His will and purpose... It's not partial if He picks and chooses according to His perfect will and council...
Yes it is because there is always a "cause" behind what one picks and chooses.
Your only answer can be that His pickin' and choosin' was random. Yet, how does that glorify God?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 2:57:48 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2059
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Praying for someone else's salvation reminds me of how
grateful I am for God saving me despite the fact that I
deserve otherwise. This regular reminder humbles me
and inspires me to continue praying, reading the Bible,
being involved at church, helping others--basically the
things that God wants us to do, most importantly loving,
honoring, and focusing on him.
Seems there is no point in praying for someone else to be saved.
if you believe God has already determined whether he will do it or not.
If he saves the one we pray for, its just a coincidence of
our desire with God's predetermined choice, no?
So what could possibly be your motivation to pray for someone's
salvation if you believe it has already been predetermined?
Do you believe God can and does change his mind in response to prayer?
quote:
I don't know that God decrees divorce.
I don't know that God's predestines our success or failure at school.
I don't know that God determines our spouses.
I thought he determined everything that comes to pass?
Do you believe the doctrine of God's Eternal Decree or not?
quote:
God knows when our time will be up. We do not.
Does that mean that we shouldn't pray for the safety of others
when they travel? Of course, not. Praying for others takes the
focus off ourselves.
Please. Do you or would you pray for one of your children
as they drive off? What would you pray for?
Praying for others takes the focus off us? Sure, but how
can you truly believe intercessory prayer is just that -
that God would intercede and change the future?
quote:
RWE: Isn't an "answer to prayer" for a Calvinist nothing
more than a coincidental alignment of his desire with God's will?
SR: I don't believe in coincidence.
You contradict yourself.
You said you don't know God chooses our spouses, plans our divorces,
causes us to fail an exam.
In order for God to remain Calvinistically sovereign, you MUST
believe he determines all things that come to pass.
quote:
I do believe that a significant purpose of prayer is
to align man's will with God's will.
I agree.
But I also believe God responds to prayer and can change his mind.
quote:
I also think that man will (more often than not) look for
things that happen in life and try to ascribe them to answered
prayer whether they are or not--kind of like self-fulfilling prophecy,
you know?
I sure. We cannot know the future. But the Bible tells us
God changes his mind and responds to prayer.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:09:33 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Jeremiah 20:7-9, "I am ridiculed all day long: everyone mocks me for preaching violence and destruction, So the Word of the Lord has brought me insult and reproach all day long. But when I say, 'I will no longer speak his name, his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot."
here, Jeremiah clearly didn't want to speak God's Word. In fact in verses 14-18, Jeremiah wished that he had never been born. So if he had a choice, he wouldn't have chosen to be a prophet. But as he tells us in verse 7; "You overpowered me and prevailed" God's power in him compelled him to speak His Word and there was nothing that Jeremiah could do about it except to die.
Paul also tells us the same thing in Romans 7:13-25 and Acts 20:22, the Spirit compels those in whom God put him, to do His will as Ezekiel 36:27 explains as well.
Free will? hardly. But only those born again of the Holy Spirit know how much power God has in the world. The rest think it's their own will that makes the decisions of the universe. They couldn't be further from the truth.
Lets forget free will for now please.
What I am struggling with is understanding what is the
practical purpose of prayer for an eternal decreeist?
I am using this term "eternal decreeist" distinctly from Calvinism.
So lets just stick to prayer for the moment.
I want you to explain to me how you can rectify what the Bible
says about prayer in light of eternal decreeism.
Lets just take one Scripture at a time and start with:
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves,
and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways,
then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal
their land. 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive
to prayer made in this place. 2Chr 7
IF his people do something (repent and pray) THEN God will listen.
What sense does this make if it has all been predetermined?
rw, of course it won't make any sense from the RT pov, but the only response you'll get from Carico is that you just don't believe the Bible (because you don't believe RT theology).
I simply quoted the bible. People either believe it or they don't. That's between them and their Lord.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:17:02 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 626
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
There is no contradiction if you read through.....
......yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future.......
That means when free-willers say God decreed to save the people that He saw would believe in the future.......such is not the case. What is decreed to happen is not because God saw some event in the future take place and then decided to decree it. Tell me how you are not taking mans responsibility out of the picture?
quote:
According to your "Chapter III #I:
God from all eternity...
...ordered, commanded, decreed, gave orders for Adam to sin....
...yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin.
Chapter 5
Providence
1. God-the great Creator of all things-upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least. He exercises this most wise and holy providence according to his infallible foreknowledge and the free and unchangeable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
2. Although-in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause-all things come to pass unchangeably and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he orders them to occur according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
3. In his ordinary providence, God makes use of means, yet he is free to work without, above, and against them as he pleases.
4. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God manifest themselves so completely in his providence that it extends even to the first fall and all other sins of angels and men-not by a bare permission, but by a permission which has joined with it a most wise and powerful limiting, and otherwise ordering and governing of them in a varied administration, for his own holy purposes. However, the sinfulness comes from the creatures alone and not from God, who, because he is most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin. I have no idea what all that says.
Pleas put it in term to understand.
All I get out of it is that God orders, commands, decrees, ordains, & controls everything to happen but stays innocent by virtue of being God.
Is that what it all comes down to?
quote:
You have faith in the will of men.
It is you that has faith that the will of each man will save each man as each man faithfully turns to Christ to save himself.
The will of man is the solution. No.
My faith is in Christ to save me when I responsibly choose to do what I'm ably commanded to do, which is to put my faith in/on HIM and to repent.
If I can not, how am i responsible for doing not?
quote:
1. God has endowed the will of man with such natural liberty that it is neither forced nor-by any absolute necessity of nature- determined to good or evil. How does God control everything if man has natural liberty that it is neither forced nor-by any absolute necessity of nature?
Where does God control everything in this.
If something has natural liberty that it is neither forced or determined, This one is not being controlled.
quote:
2. Man, in his state of innocence, had freedom and ability to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God, and yet not unalterably, so that he might fall from it. I know why/how Adam fell.
Explain how & why we lost this just because of Adam?
quote:
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability to choose any spiritual good that accompanies salvation.
Explain how & why.
Do not use Scripture, because I will interpret it as I do.
You can not persuade me with Scripture, because I interpret it differently.
Use common sense and reality as truth is according to those.
However, tell me why you say that no one can acknowledge the truth and act upon it, when they do all the time anyway.
quote:
Therefore, an unregenerate man, because he is opposed to that good and is dead in sin, is unable by his own strength to convert himself or to prepare himself to be converted. No one says that we convert ourselves.
Furthermore, please give your definition of spiritual death/spiritualy dead.
If you could, please tell me what you know my definition is, so I know you have listened to me.
quote:
4. When God converts a sinner and brings him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by his grace alone he enables him freely to will and to do what is spiritually good Your telling me that God must first, Put HIS Spirit in an unrepentant faithless man who still hates HIM in order to be saved?
Fact it, that when God puts His Spirit in anyone, it is because they do not hate Him and are repenting because they believed the truth, which all mankind can do anyway.
Don't say that God has a different kind of truth that man can not acknowledge, for, truth is truth, there is only one kind of truth.
quote:
I have always noticed it is Arminians and Free-willers that cry the loudest and shout the hardest "unfair tyrant"......"unfair tyrant" when it is insinuated that God has imputed the unrighteousness of Adam upon all of mankind. Never in all my life have I cryed "unfair".
I say, "unjust"!
There is a difference.
Tell me how God is justified in laying guilt on anyone who has not yet sinned?
Since I have different interpretation of scripture than you, do not use Scripture to explain, but use common sense, as truth & reality always abides by that.
quote:
They have no problem at all with God imputing the righteousness of Christ Jesus upon the unrighteous That is because we ask for righteousness .
We wouldn't deserve rightousness if we never ask for it.
According to Romans 4:3
We deserve rightousness because we willfully put our faith in/on Him as we are commanded & are able.
quote:
It is because they always start from a premise that God owes them all things good as if He is in debt to them for some reason. If God atones for some arbitrarily, He must do the same to remain impartial.
Therefore, according to your theology/doctrine, yes, God does owe us all to remain impartial.
Unless God uses certain criteria for choosing whom He elects, if He chooses some & not others arbitrarily, God will be partial in His decisions.
However, according to your theology/doctrine, have God elects some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would.
In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:20:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4522
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Do you not know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart until God kept his heart hard.
God harden Pharaoh's heart out of judgment because Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
It was out of purpose... Why and how did Pharaoh come to power? God did so to show the word His power and glory...
Pharaoh agreed to let God's people go and God changed Pharaoh's mind so that he wouldn't...
Sorry, but it was more than just judgment...
quote:
According to your theology/doctrine, if I pray for non-elect, I am not praying in harmony or in agreement to His will.
How does one know who is or isn't the elect? That it why the word is preached to all...
John
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:23:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
IF his people do something (repent and pray) THEN God will listen.
What sense does this make if it has all been predetermined?
rw, of course it won't make any sense from the RT pov, but the only response you'll get from Carico is that you just don't believe the Bible (because you don't believe RT theology).
I simply quoted the bible. People either believe it or they don't. That's between them and their Lord.
You've done a lot more than than just quote the Bible. In post 32438, you said, "You had better believe in Jesus or you'll die in your sins, Free." I take that as a clear charge that you consider me unsaved.
Are you ignorant of the Terms of Service, Carico? Specifically #6, which forbids a "spirit of divisiveness", and the first point under #6 speaks of denying another of being a Christian because they don't accept your pov.
Your statement above: "people either believe it or they don't" completely misses the whole point of this thread. This thread is to discuss the different understandings people have of the Bible. So your repeated comments that "people don't believe the Bible" when they are disagreeing with you does nothing more than create divisiveness and is totally erroneous.
You've yet to provide any meaningful discussion of what various Scriptures are saying, although you've provided plenty of reformed rhetoric, but no substance.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:29:14 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 626
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondquote:
Diolectic
Still, you have God decreeing/ordaining Adam to sin, and all mankind to sin for that matter.
It don't matter if God didn't decree things because of what He saw Adam and the rest of us do, He still made us to sin by His decree/ordaining. And so what IF He did?
IF He did do such a thing......so what? Don't you see anything wrong in that?
quote:
You keep going on and on and on and on with this like it has some sort of gigantic meaningful message.
If He did ordain you to sin.....what are you going to do? I guess you don't see anything wrong with it.
Tell me how you are responsible for that which you are ordained for?
quote:
Tell mom and dad? Call the cops? Call Him names? Punch Him in the eye?
Are we both going to tell Him how unfair such great and majestic people like ourselves thinks He is?
I am not! It ain't about God.
It's your theology/doctrine.
You just gave an answer like, I can't do anything about the injustice because the tyrant is the authority.
quote:
I mean seriously think about what you keep telling me over and over again.
I have already given you answers and you keep asking the same questions of me and say that I am making God out to be a tyrant.
So what if I am correct and He did ordain everything that comes to pass?
Would you call God a tyrant and tell Him He is not worthy of your worship? Yes, because it would be true.
If he throws me into hell, I would be justifide in my cry, "I am here because it is what I am created for.
God controlled me to sin.
He ordained me to sin.
I was created to sin.
All my life, I obeyed that which I was created & ordained for.
God wanted me to sin from the foundation of the world.
God's will was for me to reject Him.
When I sinned, I was obeying God's will for my life.
My obedience to God's will makes me righteous."
Yet, I am being unjustly condemned for doing His will."
quote:
Are you going to grab Him and put Him on some trial like He is some common street thug that you have the power to hold in your courtroom or behind bars?
What exactly would you do IF He did ordain it? Not worship Him? I would claim that I was obedient to His will, which was the thing I was ordained to.
You say that the non-elect were ordained to sin and reject him?
They are only doing His will.
Tell me this, why would God ordaine anything against His will?
That would be like shooting Himself in the foot.
quote:
There are plenty that don't so you would just be one more foolish soul joining the club.
I mean we need to be serious on this. How can I take anything seriously that don't make sense?
quote:
So where do you keep trying to go with this?
The WCF is a pretty good Biblical Confession and it provides proof text to what it bases its statements on. It bases its statements on nonsense.
They do not see the logical conclusion of their claims.
quote:
It is quite similar to the LBC which can be found online and also provides places to look up proof text.
It is merely trying to state that God is and was in control of all things and nothing is out of His hands......including the fall of man. IOW
Nothing that is not His will can be done, because He controls everything. If it weren't His will, then He wouldn't control it to be so.
Is that correct?
Are you going to respond to this?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 3:42:58 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
IF his people do something (repent and pray) THEN God will listen.
What sense does this make if it has all been predetermined?
rw, of course it won't make any sense from the RT pov, but the only response you'll get from Carico is that you just don't believe the Bible (because you don't believe RT theology).
I simply quoted the bible. People either believe it or they don't. That's between them and their Lord.
You've done a lot more than than just quote the Bible. In post 32438, you said, "You had better believe in Jesus or you'll die in your sins, Free." I take that as a clear charge that you consider me unsaved.
Are you ignorant of the Terms of Service, Carico? Specifically #6, which forbids a "spirit of divisiveness", and the first point under #6 speaks of denying another of being a Christian because they don't accept your pov.
Your statement above: "people either believe it or they don't" completely misses the whole point of this thread. This thread is to discuss the different understandings people have of the Bible. So your repeated comments that "people don't believe the Bible" when they are disagreeing with you does nothing more than create divisiveness and is totally erroneous.
You've yet to provide any meaningful discussion of what various Scriptures are saying, although you've provided plenty of reformed rhetoric, but no substance.
Actually Jesus says that in John 8:21, "If you do not believe that I am the one who I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." Do you disagree with Jesus there? I don't which is why I passed it along. So I was passing along the truth of Jesus's message that we had better believe Jesus or we'll die in our sins.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 5:33:24 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2059
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
It is biblical. God has (and I believe does) change his mind. How would that even be possible since God is omniscient?
Jeremiah 26:13(NASB)
"Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey
the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will change His mind
about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.
Amos 7:6(NASB)
The LORD changed His mind about this."This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.
Still think God can't change his mind. Perhaps your view of omniscience needs amending.
God can and is moved to act based on prayer - do you agree?
I have asked what the purpose of intercessory prayer is for a decreeist.
He tells us he will give us the desires of our hearts.
The "prayers of a righteous man availeth much".
If everything was predetermined and God did not honor prayer,
what sense does it make at all? What do you think?
2 Chronicles 7:15(NASB)
" Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayer offered in this place.
2 Samuel 21:14(NASB)
They buried the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son in the country of
Benjamin in Zela, in the grave of Kish his father; thus they did all that
the king commanded, and after that God was moved by prayer for the land.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 5:37:07 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
I simply quoted the bible. People either believe it or they don't. That's between them and their Lord.
You've done a lot more than than just quote the Bible. In post 32438, you said, "You had better believe in Jesus or you'll die in your sins, Free." I take that as a clear charge that you consider me unsaved.
Are you ignorant of the Terms of Service, Carico? Specifically #6, which forbids a "spirit of divisiveness", and the first point under #6 speaks of denying another of being a Christian because they don't accept your pov.
Your statement above: "people either believe it or they don't" completely misses the whole point of this thread. This thread is to discuss the different understandings people have of the Bible. So your repeated comments that "people don't believe the Bible" when they are disagreeing with you does nothing more than create divisiveness and is totally erroneous.
You've yet to provide any meaningful discussion of what various Scriptures are saying, although you've provided plenty of reformed rhetoric, but no substance.
Actually Jesus says that in John 8:21, "If you do not believe that I am the one who I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." Do you disagree with Jesus there? I don't which is why I passed it along.
I don't disagree with it either. But your statement was a clear implication that I haven't believed in Jesus and am going to die in my sins. Don't act as though your statement wasn't making that point.
So I was passing along the truth of Jesus's message that we had better believe Jesus or we'll die in our sins.
No, you were NOT "passing along...that WE had better believe Jesus". You very specifically addressed me with your reckless comment. Can you even try to be a little more intellectually honest here?
I will "refresh" your memory, which seems to have faded on what you actually posted to me in #32438:
"You had better believe in Jesus or you'll die in your sins, Free." So you can stop with the hypocrisy that you were speaking to "all of us". That is nonsense and you know it.
Your sentence very clearly assumes that I current don't believe Jesus, and that I'm going to die in my sins. The only thing I disagree with is the erroneous reformed view of the Bible.
Your comment very clearly violated the TOS, but maybe that doesn't seem to bother you much, huh?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 5:39:51 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
It is biblical. God has (and I believe does) change his mind. How would that even be possible since God is omniscient?
Jeremiah 26:13(NASB)
"Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey
the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will change His mind
about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.
Amos 7:6(NASB)
The LORD changed His mind about this."This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.
Still think God can't change his mind. Perhaps your view of omniscience needs amending.
Perhaps, rw, kelman just needs to read more of his Bible. Apparently he isn't aware of some things.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 6:15:05 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 626
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Calv/Ref people are so varied in what y'all believe, it's hard to get your theology straight. Given your disregard for what is plainly stated the issue is not with others... Yes, it is with others theology, I'm fine with God and His Word.
quote:
quote:
I say that if HE offered salvation to a few arbitrarily for no reason except that He just wanted to, it is only just(not fare) that He offer it to all arbitrarily, for no reason.
If He doesn't, He is being partial. Your view assumes that God is biased towards one over another based on something other than His will and purpose... It's not partial if He picks and chooses according to His perfect will and council... Arbitrary: Depending, according to, based on, subject to individual will, discretion &/or preference; not governed by any fixed rules;
2: Despotic; absolute in power with no regard for terms from which something should be judged other than ones own opinion; having no external control;
George Washington said: Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
God's perfect will and council is arbitrary if He does not use that which He has established as a standard of judgment from outside of Himself.
He has revealed to us the standard of judgment.
It is according to obedience to the responsibilities we must meet in order to receive eternal life, which are repentance & faith.
HE pardons from the reason of mercy upon request as we meet the responsibilities.
God's mercy has conditions based upon standards of conduct (Matthew 18:32-35, Acts 17:30)
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and(then) you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
It is after one obeys & submits to the responsibilities, then He receives the spirit for assistance to keep living a holy life in sanctification.
If God picks and chooses according to His perfect will and council with no regard for the criteria which is evident, that is the definition of partiality, an unwarranted bias of mind towards one party or side.
Partiality springs from the random will, rather than from a love of truth and justice.
If God judges us guilty for willful sin, then He judges us as righteous for willful obedience.
Our obedience to His mandate for us to have faith & repent is us meeting the criteria in which God uses to choose whom He will save.
I've heard Calvs/Refs say that God elects some with purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would, just because He is God. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to".
All this is because He does it for His own glory.
quote:
Do you not know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart until God kept his heart hard.
God harden Pharaoh's heart out of judgment because Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
It was out of purpose... Why and how did Pharaoh come to power? Because He was the best one to meet the requirement for the office. And He was born into the family.
Same reason that God puts others in power.
If one can not meet the requirement for the office, God will not promote him.
Furthermore, Egypt needed a governor.
It is also the same reason that God puts others in the time and place in which they were born.
God created the world in which the most possible souls repent with the least amount of accountability and judgment for those who don't repent.
You say that God put Pharaoh where His is so that Pharaoh may not repent and have the most amount of accountability and judgment. This is contrary to God's character.
Furthermore, you have it is as God points people to disappoint Him. This is nonsense.
quote:
quote:
According to your theology/doctrine, if I pray for non-elect, I am not praying in harmony or in agreement to His will. How does one know who is or isn't the elect? That it why the word is preached to all... It don't matter if we know or not who ais elect or not.
My point is that GOD WILL NOT even attempt to save, He will not even lift one finger, just because he don't want to.
God remains apathetic to the cries of His redeemed. He has no regard for them.
What would you tell a widow who lost an unsaved husband?
An honest Calvinist:
God hated your husband.
Your husband was created and born as a vessel of wrath.
God did not "elect" him for His own Glory.
He had no hope even from the beginning of creation.
It wouldn't have mattered if you prayed or not, He would have still ended up in hell no matter what.
God ordained him to hell.
Your husband is in hell for a glorious purpose...ect...
If these are true, why would you withhold the truth from her?
Or if she becomes saved and finds this "truth out" it is most ofeensable and she would Hate God for these reasons.
I hate the god and many other Christians do too,, how do you figure that?
Don't you say that if one hates this god which you describe, he is not elect?
I guess I am not elect, for I despise this god which you describe.
How then do I have a relationship with HIM through Christ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 7:01:33 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 517
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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I will occasionally read this thread in attempts to have a better understanding of the Calvinist and Arminian doctrines.
Some of you have heard me say that I believe both doctrines are "flawed". For a couple of years I've been asked why I feel they are "flawed". It's kinda of hard to answer a question asked if you don't understand how the issue could be viewed.
I have been accused of being an "Arminian" many times. Most of my answers to Calvinistic questions were "Arminian" in nature. Grace seems to be the precise focus of this doctrine. The attribute of freewill also comes into examination. I understand freewill and agree that each one of us do have, yet I don't believe "freewill" alone is a good explanation for salvation. I however knew that I didn't agree fully with the "5 Points Of Arminianism". I just couldn't put my finger on "why". I continued studying and praying about the issue seeking the Holy Spirit's leading for the answer and why my soul just wasn't able to accept the Arminian doctrine as completely true.
Calvinism focus's strongly on God's "foreknowledge" and the fact that we WERE "predestined". I believe in foreknowledge and I can't deny that we MUST be "predestined", simply because that is what Scripture says. Yet I still could not see the complete or full truth of God revealed in this doctrine. It just wouldn't line up completely with Scripture.
Arminianism focus's on man's free choice. That is all fine and good and I think all of us do realize that we have freedom to make choices, yet this "freewill" minimizes the work of the Holy Spirit. Again I still could not see the complete or full truth of God revealed in this doctrine. It wouldn't line up completely with Scripture.
I have inquired of God through prayerful study of Calvinism and examined each point and discussed it informatively with many Calvinists. Sovereignty of God seems to be the precise focus of this doctrine. God's "sovereignty" is absolute truth. In my study of Calvinism "sovereignty" continued to be the "stumbling block" that kept me searching and praying over this doctrine. Still I was unable to accept that Calvinism was the complete truth.
God continued to remind me that the Bible alone is the only complete full truth and no doctrine of man can ever fully explain who God is. I continued to struggle with this and pray for belief (something that is extremely important if Calvinism is even considered viable). I continued to pray for God to reveal truth to me and give me an answer as to why I couldn't come to terms and accept either Arminianism or Calvinism. Thankfully the Holy Spirit led me to that answer.
I still hold Calvinism and Arminianism as flawed doctrine. Calvinism speaks strongly towards the "sovereignty" of God and Arminianism strongly towards the "grace" of God. Both of these attributes of God are amazing and wonderful yet the neglect another amazing attribute of God. Omnipresence. Omnipresence is the attribute that means God IS IN ALL PLACES AT ALL TIMES. Jesus appeared to Moses and stated "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." This is an ACTIVE statement.
God isn't held captive in "time" he created time and time isn't "linear" to him. God is active and the Holy Spirit is active in the world.
Imagine that right "now" God is creating the universe, talking to Moses through the burning bush, parting the Red Sea, Christ is being born in Bethlehem, Christ is dying on the cross, you are reading this post, Christ is returning, and God is with us in "eternity" all RIGHT NOW. That is I AM!
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 7:44:34 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 626
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
Imagine that right "now" God is creating the universe, talking to Moses through the burning bush, parting the Red Sea, Christ is being born in Bethlehem, Christ is dying on the cross, you are reading this post, Christ is returning, and God is with us in "eternity" all RIGHT NOW. That is I AM! More like God is not creating the universe, talking to Moses through the burning bush, parting the Red Sea, Christ is being born in Bethlehem, Christ is dying on the cross,...
...Christ is returning, and God is with us in "eternity".
God is only Now as you are reading this post. That is I AM.
What you basically said was,
God is was, & is now, & is currently will be.
For the God's "sovereignty" part, they have the definition wrong.
They make God's "sovereignty" out to be all controlling and dominating, the ultimate cause of all things.
The true definition is the ultimate authority, all are accountable to him.
For the God's "foreknowledge" part, they have the definition wrong.
They make God's "foreknowledge" based on God knowing what He will do.
It's like saying, "Rom 8:29 For whom He knew He would save; he also did decide in advance to be conformed to the image of his Son...ect
It make more sense as "Rom 8:29 For whom he knew would repent and have faith; he also did decide in advance to be conformed to the image of his Son...ect
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 7:55:55 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Calv/Ref people are so varied in what y'all believe, it's hard to get your theology straight. Given your disregard for what is plainly stated the issue is not with others... Yes, it is with others theology, I'm fine with God and His Word.
quote:
quote:
I say that if HE offered salvation to a few arbitrarily for no reason except that He just wanted to, it is only just(not fare) that He offer it to all arbitrarily, for no reason.
If He doesn't, He is being partial. Your view assumes that God is biased towards one over another based on something other than His will and purpose... It's not partial if He picks and chooses according to His perfect will and council... Arbitrary: Depending, according to, based on, subject to individual will, discretion &/or preference; not governed by any fixed rules;
2: Despotic; absolute in power with no regard for terms from which something should be judged other than ones own opinion; having no external control;
George Washington said: Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
God's perfect will and council is arbitrary if He does not use that which He has established as a standard of judgment from outside of Himself.
He has revealed to us the standard of judgment.
It is according to obedience to the responsibilities we must meet in order to receive eternal life, which are repentance & faith.
HE pardons from the reason of mercy upon request as we meet the responsibilities.
God's mercy has conditions based upon standards of conduct (Matthew 18:32-35, Acts 17:30)
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and(then) you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
It is after one obeys & submits to the responsibilities, then He receives the spirit for assistance to keep living a holy life in sanctification.
If God picks and chooses according to His perfect will and council with no regard for the criteria which is evident, that is the definition of partiality, an unwarranted bias of mind towards one party or side.
Partiality springs from the random will, rather than from a love of truth and justice.
If God judges us guilty for willful sin, then He judges us as righteous for willful obedience.
Our obedience to His mandate for us to have faith & repent is us meeting the criteria in which God uses to choose whom He will save.
I've heard Calvs/Refs say that God elects some with purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would, just because He is God. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to".
All this is because He does it for His own glory.
quote:
Do you not know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart until God kept his heart hard.
God harden Pharaoh's heart out of judgment because Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
It was out of purpose... Why and how did Pharaoh come to power? Because He was the best one to meet the requirement for the office. And He was born into the family.
Same reason that God puts others in power.
If one can not meet the requirement for the office, God will not promote him.
Furthermore, Egypt needed a governor.
It is also the same reason that God puts others in the time and place in which they were born.
God created the world in which the most possible souls repent with the least amount of accountability and judgment for those who don't repent.
You say that God put Pharaoh where His is so that Pharaoh may not repent and have the most amount of accountability and judgment. This is contrary to God's character.
Furthermore, you have it is as God points people to disappoint Him. This is nonsense.
quote:
quote:
According to your theology/doctrine, if I pray for non-elect, I am not praying in harmony or in agreement to His will. How does one know who is or isn't the elect? That it why the word is preached to all... It don't matter if we know or not who ais elect or not.
My point is that GOD WILL NOT even attempt to save, He will not even lift one finger, just because he don't want to.
God remains apathetic to the cries of His redeemed. He has no regard for them.
What would you tell a widow who lost an unsaved husband?
An honest Calvinist:
God hated your husband.
Your husband was created and born as a vessel of wrath.
God did not "elect" him for His own Glory.
He had no hope even from the beginning of creation.
It wouldn't have mattered if you prayed or not, He would have still ended up in hell no matter what.
God ordained him to hell.
Your husband is in hell for a glorious purpose...ect...
If these are true, why would you withhold the truth from her?
Or if she becomes saved and finds this "truth out" it is most ofeensable and she would Hate God for these reasons.
I hate the god and many other Christians do too,, how do you figure that?
Don't you say that if one hates this god which you describe, he is not elect?
I guess I am not elect, for I despise this god which you describe.
How then do I have a relationship with HIM through Christ?
No, I'd tell the widow that God knows the hearts of men better than humans do. But non-reformists don't appear to believe that. So they'll tell the widow that her husband was a bad man and those who accepted Christ are better than he was. Calvinists teach mercy, non-reformists teach judgmentalism and self-righteousness.
< Message edited by Carico -- 8/7/2008 8:02:35 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 8:03:47 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
What would you tell a widow who lost an unsaved husband?
An honest Calvinist:
God hated your husband.
Your husband was created and born as a vessel of wrath.
God did not "elect" him for His own Glory.
He had no hope even from the beginning of creation.
It wouldn't have mattered if you prayed or not, He would have still ended up in hell no matter what.
God ordained him to hell.
Your husband is in hell for a glorious purpose...ect...
If these are true, why would you withhold the truth from her?
Or if she becomes saved and finds this "truth out" it is most ofeensable and she would Hate God for these reasons.
I hate the god and many other Christians do too,, how do you figure that?
Don't you say that if one hates this god which you describe, he is not elect?
I guess I am not elect, for I despise this god which you describe.
How then do I have a relationship with HIM through Christ?
No, I'd tell the widow that God knows the hearts of men better than humans do. But non-reformists don't appear to believe that. So they'll tell the widow that her husband was a bad man and those who accepted Christ are better than he was.
What leads you to believe that non-reformists don't believe that God knows the heart of men bettern than humans do?
Why do you continue to make such outrageous statements that only demonstrate that you really have no clue as to what non-reformists believe?
btw, how come you are ignoring my question to you in 32663? Cat got your tongue?
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