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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 7/22/2008 3:07:43 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Nazarenes, in my opinion are really a honest and sincere group of Blievers. The only difference between my denomition and the Nazarenes is in the area of Spiritual gifts Based on another thread, there may be some differences regarding choice of beverage at backyard cook-outs as well! 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 7/22/2008 5:52:43 PM
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drfuss
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drfuss: How is the Nazarene churches organized?
Are the pastors appointed by the denomination? Elected by the church independently? Nominated by the denomination and approved by the church? or Elected by the church from ministers approved by the denomination?
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 7/23/2008 11:57:10 AM
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drmark
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Wow, so many questions, so little time! If you really want to research denominational government in depth, you will find everything you need in the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene. For a real quick overview, local pastors are nominated by local lay leaders and elected by at least 2/3 majority of voting members to a four year term. This is approved and reviewed by the distict superintendent (generally responsible for 50-100 local churches). All Nazarene pastors must be ordained elders or in approved training with strict oversight to become such.
Personally, I feel the governmental system of our denomination is one of the best in assuring democratic representation, transparent accountability, and enthusiastic cooperation between laity and clergy. Of course, any system is only as good as the people who work under it.
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 7/23/2008 3:28:30 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Wow, so many questions, so little time! If you really want to research denominational government in depth, you will find everything you need in the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene. For a real quick overview, local pastors are nominated by local lay leaders and elected by at least 2/3 majority of voting members to a four year term. This is approved and reviewed by the distict superintendent (generally responsible for 50-100 local churches). All Nazarene pastors must be ordained elders or in approved training with strict oversight to become such.
Personally, I feel the governmental system of our denomination is one of the best in assuring democratic representation, transparent accountability, and enthusiastic cooperation between laity and clergy. Of course, any system is only as good as the people who work under it.
drfuss: Thank you. The government system sounds like the Assemblies of God except that the AoG pastors are elected indifinitely. Are the pastors automatically renominated at the end of the four year term or must they move on?
In the AoG, the board officially nominates a new pastor; however, the District Superintendent is usually very involved in who is or who is not nominated. The pastor must get at least a 2/3 vote of the membership. The new pastor must hold or obtain minister credentials with the denomination.
There is much to be said in favor of terms of office for the pastor. Although terms of office were tried in the AoG years ago, it was fought so much by the ministers that hardly any church has them anymore. Of course, the ministers elect the District Superintendent (their pastor) for a three year term. Is there any controversy within the Nazarene church pertaining to having terms of office for pastors?
BTW, my interest in the Nazarene church is that my brother and wife (in another state) have started attending a Nazarene church and seems to be very happy there. He would perfer to find out about the Nazarene church organization without having to ask someone in the church.
< Message edited by drfuss -- 7/23/2008 3:38:37 PM >
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 7/23/2008 3:52:56 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Are the pastors automatically renominated at the end of the four year term or must they move on? Well, if I remember right, the term was two years about a decade ago but there was such a great turnover rate that the General Assembly amended it to four years with reviews every four years as well. I think we're trying much harder to keep our pastors for longer times.
quote:
Is there any controversy within the Nazarene church peratining to having terms of office for pastors? Obviously as a layman, I'm not privy to much clergy scuttlebut, as it were. But I do know that longer terms are favored by most of our leadership overall. It certainly makes more sense to me as well.
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 7/23/2008 8:33:22 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Are the pastors automatically renominated at the end of the four year term or must they move on? Well, if I remember right, the term was two years about a decade ago but there was such a great turnover rate that the General Assembly amended it to four years with reviews every four years as well. I think we're trying much harder to keep our pastors for longer times.
quote:
Is there any controversy within the Nazarene church peratining to having terms of office for pastors? Obviously as a layman, I'm not privy to much clergy scuttlebut, as it were. But I do know that longer terms are favored by most of our leadership overall. It certainly makes more sense to me as well.
drfuss: I think four years is a good length of term. If after four years, the pastor does not have the confidence of the laymen, it is time for him to move on. A pastor who does not have the confidence of the laymen, will probably realize it and move on before the vote comes. This happened in a church we belonged to in another state many years ago.
Unhappy laymen will probably stay until the vote; and if he is voted back in, then the unhappy people will probably leave.
In the Assemblies of God when all the churches did not have a periodic vote, the better ministers would simply refuse to take a church with a periodic vote. Sixteen years ago, we left an AoG church two years after a new pastor came, because of his dictorial actions and many other inconsistances. There was no vote on the pastor and he made it clear he intended to stay. He is still there. Over 2/3 of the people have left, but would probably have stayed and voted him out if they had a periodic vote. Others have come in to take their place.
It all turned out for the best for us since we are much happier in the church we have attended for the past 16 years.
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/16/2008 5:41:49 PM
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selahgirl
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I've been attending this Naz church for a little over a year now. While I love the heart for community and active ministry... something has come to my attention that I am trying to sort out. Here's my question:
What is the Nazarene Denomination's stance on the inerrancy of Scripture?
I mean, do they believe that it is all 100% inspired by God and that none of it is to be disregarded as the mere interpretation of men and cultures? Do they teach as doctrine that portions of Scripture contradict itself and the Bible therefore cannot be interpreted literally or without the overlay of human error or bias?
I am deeply concerned because of much teaching that has come up in the Sunday School and from unrelated instances of college age teens attempting to explain the matter. It creates a sense that the Scripture is unreliable at best... one minute they are saying it is full of contradictions yet the next minute they are saying that they are not claiming the Bible is untrue...
I'm not confused about the general debates about whether two people were healed or one person was healed in certain stories. I get such things... I am concerned about the general attitude that I am encountering lately that Scripture is unreliable as 100% true and accurate. Is this the perspective of this particular church, or is this a Nazarene doctrine?
Thanks for any help
^_^
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/16/2008 6:28:40 PM
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drmark
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From the Articles of Faith, #IV:
quote:
We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith. The key phrase as I see it is "concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation". In my opinion, this leaves far too much latitude for sloppy personal interpretation of issues not deemed by the individual Believer to be essential Christian doctrine. For example, if acceptance of original sin is necessary to our proper understanding of salvation, then why would the historical creation of Adam and Eve as recorded a few verses earlier not be "inerrant revelation" as well? This is one of the very rare areas with which I disagree with my denomination.
To my knowledge, there should be no legitimate Nazarene pastor or teacher who claims that "portions of Scripture contradict itself"! Do you have an example to share or is this a conclusion you have come to from observing the responses of certain students in your class? If the latter, why is the teacher not confronting these students with sound Nazarene doctrine?
BTW, I teach the College and Career SS class at my Church of the Nazarene and I'm quite familiar with the sometimes convoluted thought processes of this age group, even ones raised in the church as PKs!
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/16/2008 6:33:47 PM
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klpowell
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Funny you should ask this as the question just came up in a course I am talking though Nazarene Bible College
The Nazarene Manua says "inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation,..."
The Nazarene Church belives that the Bible is the Revelation of God and that it was given to men to write down by the Holy Spirit and that it was has been handed down though history and God has ensured that the message needed for our salvation has been perserved.
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/16/2008 9:48:11 PM
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selahgirl
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I'm not quite sure what part of this is suggesting....
are you saying that part of the Bible (whatever someone considers not essential to our salvation) is not inspired by God and may contain error, contradiction, or bias?
or does the Nazarene doctrine teach that the Bible is the inerrant word of God... without error?
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/16/2008 9:59:19 PM
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selahgirl
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quote:
For example, if acceptance of original sin is necessary to our proper understanding of salvation, then why would the historical creation of Adam and Eve as recorded a few verses earlier not be "inerrant revelation" as well? This is one of the very rare areas with which I disagree with my denomination.
Specifically... are you saying that Nazarene doctrine believes that "the historical creation of Adam and Eve" as recorded in Genesis contains error in some way? or am I misunderstanding what you are saying... which is very possible, as my head is very full with trying to understand all of this ^_^
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/17/2008 9:17:58 AM
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drmark
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quote:
are you saying that part of the Bible (whatever someone considers not essential to our salvation) is not inspired by God and may contain error, contradiction, or bias? While I suppose someone could get that meaning from the Article of Faith #IV, that is almost surely not its original intent. I certainly do not believe that any part of the Bible "contains error or contradiction". There may be passages we do not fully understand but that is due to our frail minds, not God's mistaken inspiration!
quote:
Specifically... are you saying that Nazarene doctrine believes that "the historical creation of Adam and Eve" as recorded in Genesis contains error in some way? No, not at all, selahgirl. The Bible is inerrant revelation for all things concerning our salvation. I believe the historical creation of Adam and Eve has major significance concerning our salvation. Other sincere Nazarene Believers do not and thus may interpret the historical record from Genesis differently than I do. The problem is that one of our positions (humans created on day 6 vs. humans evolving 2 million years ago) is factually wrong. The Bible is always right!
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[Deleted] - 9/17/2008 9:56:46 AM
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/17/2008 11:37:49 AM
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drmark
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Say, while you are here, emerging, would you please share the doctrinal stance of the UMC on Scriptural authority/inerrancy. Is the qualifier "for all things concerning our salvation" or similar wording incorporated into the Methodist positional statement?
I just briefly looked at the Wesleyan Church statement on the Holy Scriptures and it specifically separates the authority/inerrancy creed from the following sentence on suffiency and necessity for salvation. Perhaps this is more an issue of style rather than substance?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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[Deleted] - 9/17/2008 11:45:59 AM
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/17/2008 2:15:51 PM
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selahgirl
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A light just went on... I was given a book to read for a new sunday school class I was looking into... JESUS FOR PRESIDENT. I was researching some reviews online concerning it... and came upon some interesting information about the NEW MONASTICISM movement. That's it... that's what I've been smelling in this place... I have discussed it and posted some links concerning it on the EMERGENT church thread.
This is the doctrine that the pastors of my former church and current church are teaching...
My first impression of it is not a good one... but I am open for discussion concerning it all. I would like to understand how they explain the overriding effects of such a doctrine. All the lingo is very churchy and Godly sounding, but the fruit that I am seeing is very questionable.
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[Deleted] - 9/17/2008 2:33:09 PM
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/17/2008 3:30:59 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I was researching some reviews online concerning it... and came upon some interesting information about the NEW MONASTICISM movement. I don't know anything about the "New Monasticism" movement but the "old" Monasticism definitely resulted in some heretical splinter groups in the Early Church. I will try to read your links from the other thread and comment when I have time, selahgirl.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/17/2008 4:17:45 PM
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drmark
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I found these characterisitics of "New Monasticism" on their website. Is there anything in particular that "smells bad" on this list, selahgirl?
quote:
Moved by God’s Spirit in this time called America to assemble at St. Johns Baptist Church in Durham, NC, we wish to acknowledge a movement of radical rebirth, grounded in God’s love and drawing on the rich tradition of Christian practices that have long formed disciples in the simple Way of Christ. This contemporary school for conversion which we have called a “new monasticism,” is producing a grassroots ecumenism and a prophetic witness within the North American church which is diverse in form, but characterized by the following marks:
1) Relocation to the abandoned places of Empire.
2) Sharing economic resources with fellow community members and the needy among us.
3) Hospitality to the stranger
4) Lament for racial divisions within the church and our communities combined with the active pursuit of a just reconciliation.
5) Humble submission to Christ’s body, the church.
6) Intentional formation in the way of Christ and the rule of the community along the lines of the old novitiate.
7) Nurturing common life among members of intentional community.
8) Support for celibate singles alongside monogamous married couples and their children.
9) Geographical proximity to community members who share a common rule of life.
10) Care for the plot of God’s earth given to us along with support of our local economies.
11) Peacemaking in the midst of violence and conflict resolution within communities along the lines of Matthew 18.
12) Commitment to a disciplined contemplative life.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/18/2008 3:11:32 PM
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selahgirl
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The concepts are basic Christian concepts, but the approach that I am seeing in the people operating in the New Movement that is arising is one of an elist mindset. Perhaps it will follow the path of many other new movements, which is to be expected... perhaps it will eventually split into a wild tangent that is consumed with the eccentric masked in false-humility. While another portion of the movement may emerge as a genuine return to the stated values. My experience so far is the addiction to be eccentric in the name of Christ, community, and working for the Kingdom more than anyone else. Arrogance and pride labeled as humility. It's a lie.
I pray a genuine move of God somehow emerges... but for now what I am seeing is dangerous and heartbreaking.
I guess it is simply one of those wait and see movements.
My main concern is the seeming abandonment (demeaning) of Scripture. As well as the claim that the Bible contains contradictions in one breath... then to mumble that they are not claiming the Bible to be untrue. It's that talking out both sides of the mouth. I understand that the church is entering a time of needed transition... but to tear at the foundation of our faith seems to be a dangerous trend.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever...
we know that because the Word of God tells us so. But once we deny the inerrancy of the Scriptures, we know nothing but the whims and opinions of men. Our freedom in Christ is gone, and we become open game for manipulation by those driven by selfish ambition -- no matter how soft spoken they may appear, or how much they speak of being peace-makers. The Bible warns that when they speak peace, sudden destruction will come. We are in an age of deception... the word of God it the only Truth, and if we fail to hold it as prominent and precious... we die, as do our children.
I have seen these eccentric men rule based on the 12 tenants listed.
I have seen them murder in secret, as they walk ever so gently and humbly thru the congregation.
I have seen them put the will of their leaders above the word of God and to justify it.
It has the potential for great evil, but it could birth something beyond it, that could lead to true revival. The church should be praying like never before. All things are in the balance right now, in these last days.
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/18/2008 3:34:30 PM
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drmark
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Well, selahgirl, I truly appreciate your sensitivity and depth of concern for your local church. Obviously, I do not know the situation any more than you have posted here. I do know that the Church of the Nazarene has a very accountable system of church government and polity. If you sincerely believe that the doctrinal slant of this local church "has the potential for great evil", that should be addressed immediately and firmly. If you are uncomfortable discussing this with the pastor or a church board member, please consider a PM and I can attempt to assist you.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/18/2008 5:24:24 PM
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selahgirl
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The church that had a corrupt leadership was a Vineyard church that I left four years ago. But it is very active in this small city and that leadership is active with other clergy in town. None who know all that they have done. It is a complicated mess and quite unbelievable. But the root of it all is a leadership of professional men that are addicted to the eccentric and governed by selfish ambition.
So many markers that later proved to be serious character issues seem to be vaguely appearing in the Nazarene church that I am attending in the same city. I know that when you experience such things you can become hyper-sensitive to them... but there are things that I find very concerning. The subtle suggestions that the word of God is not completely reliable... or at best slightly biased as the work of flawed men. Though when asked, the response remains that they are not saying that the Bible is untrue.
That drifting from the authority of Scripture was one of the first markers as this former leadership began revealing what spirit it was truly of.
Not only is that drift apparent in the Sunday School class my husband and I have attended, but now a teen that has grown up in that church commented randomly making reference to the same unreliability of Scripture (and referencing our sunday school teacher as the pastor that taught it to him). There is also a strong stance against violence in any form, even to the point of hinting at the suggestion that a military man doing his job is less Godly than someone who rejects all violence. There is an anti-American flavor that echoes the sentiment of the book they are teaching in this new class, one that attacks capitalism as an enemy of the church... and one that has caused recent conversation among some highschoolers sitting under such teaching to confess that at times they are ashamed to be an American or ashamed of their country.
I am reading this book, as much as I don't want to. One because I am hoping that I am very mistaken about it's message. And two, I want to be able to communicate to my teens what exactly is being taught by these leaders. Yes, my experience in my former church has caused me to not trust people or pastors as freely as I once did. My eyes were forced open to the fact that just because someone is held more accountable by God than others doesn't mean that they will honor the title given them or the character expected of them. We are all sinners and capable of ungodly actions. I pray God's discipline and his mercy on us all.
There is a very unusual mix in this Nazarene church. The messages preached on Sunday morning are Truth and very scriptural, challenging and calling ppl into the community as servants. But the Sunday school class that we've been attending for almost a year now is very political and very supportive of a liberal agenda. Many have left the class, not sure why. Others have drifted in. Sunday school across the board seems to be very lacking, but the same pastor who teaches the class is also over the Sunday School. At a friend day recently, my husband and I were trying to find a new class and realized that there is no schedule of classes provided or posted. We mentioned it to one of the pastors and he is going to get something together listing the classes. We ended up attending a class that one of the other couples attends that left our current class. But the teaching is still somewhat lacking. We are contemplating not attending a class at all and just going home to read the Bible or watch a message on TV. Which I detest doing.
I have talked openly with my teens about my concerns. After sitting under so much error at our former church, we have emphasized more than ever for them to measure all things to the Word of God no matter who is teaching it... even my husband and I. At the same time, we have stressed to be respectful and not argumentative in any way. They love their teachers and leaders and friends at this church, so we are not planning to move them. Altho they are confused about the support of some of the pastors for pro-abortion candidates. Pro-Life is the major factor in elections for our family.
We will remain in this church... but are holding many of the perspectives of it's leaders and teachers at arms length. From what I have learned formally about Nazarene doctrine, I am in agreement that it is absolutely Bible based. However, we have not joined this church because my husband and I are not willing to abstain from all alcohol. (We abstained for 11 years in obedience to the doctrine of the AG church where we were discipled). We feel it is a sin to get drunk, but alcohol with a meal or during times of celebration or for medical reasons does not seem sin to us. The AG church was the hardest place we have ever left, because we did not leave mad and we loved everyone dearly. But we just couldn't continue teaching a doctrine that we didn't believe.
I feel that the Nazarene denomination is the most honest in it's doctrine concerning the matter of alcohol. Asking people to abstain because of the social ills associated with it rather than writing it off as a blatant sin... is one of the most honest and mind-shattering things I have ever heard. I have great respect for the leadership of the denomination for their unique and extreme honesty in the matter.
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/18/2008 7:08:53 PM
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drmark
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Well, again I am sort of at a loss for words. This situation is obviously bearing heavy on your heart, selahgirl. I will pray for you and your family to continue seeking God's Will and I trust His wisdom will guide you to holy choices. God bless.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Nazarene Denomination ??? - 9/19/2008 11:02:57 AM
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selahgirl
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If you have access to the book JESUS FOR PRESIDENT that they are teaching in this class, it might help explain my concern. Or maybe you could read thru the first 34 pages or so at the book store. It makes some pretty big jumps to parallel civilization to the imperialist dream, which my sunday school teacher parallels to the American dream. All of which takes on a very anti-American sentiment as though it is a sin to be patriotic or to love your country.
(I understand that that love is to be kept in order as Love for God and Love for people remains foremost).
It tears at the fabric of civilization and blames it for the evils in the world, rather than presenting war and such as the effects of sin. It blames systems of government and democracy for the evils of the world. Just in the first 34 pages. It subtly mocks growing up in American Christian homes just in the intro.
I agree that there are serious problems in our nation and in the church at large... but this book is very politically charged and attempts to blame the state and civilization for every evil. Tearing down civilization leads ppl to savagery, as symbolically illustrated in William Golding's LORD OF THE FLIES. Such a mindset that is rising up in Christian circles wants to tear down society as we know it with no rational approach to remain civilized.
It seems to want to bring change by throwing civilization into chaos. But it has the same feel as when Abraham and Sarah tried to force God's hand and produced Ishmael.
I do not see George Washington and Lincoln and family life in America as something negative, but that is the smell that I referred to earlier that is in this book and in the church. Change must come, but I'm not sure this is the right direction... drifting from the Bible as a whole as our authority, creating a disdain for our nation, blaming systems rather than bringing it back to the root of the problem... personal sin... the need for a personal savior.
Perhaps the book will bring it back around and justify it's claims in the end... but my first impression is not a good one. And the fact that it is being taught in a Sunday School class to impressionable teens by young pastors concerns me. For now, it remains a wait and see.
As for your prayers...
Thank you so much. I cherish them, sincerely.
They are a help and an encouragement <3
(I read further than I thought ^_^)
< Message edited by selahgirl -- 9/19/2008 11:42:46 AM >
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