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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/7/2007 10:40:38 AM
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milletics
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jmeert
quote:
What YEC organization is demanding that YEC be taught along side evolution in public schools?
Just about all of them. They call it 'equal time' or 'teach the controversy'. The problem is (as Judge Jones noted) there really is no scientific controversy about the age of the earth or evolution. Here's the rub though and one that most ID/creationists ignore. Science welcomes controversial views so if ID/creationism really wants to be heard amongst scientists it can do so very easily. All ID/creationism needs to do is behave like science. Do the experiments, get dirty, publish and present in front of peers. I won't hold my breath, but the path to scientific acceptance is crystal clear.
Cheers
Joe Meert
Sorry dude but it should be taught in our(USA) schools. It was in the past, it should be now. And why shouldnt it be? MOST people believe in creationism.
Its only not taught now because its a Godless country/world and every year it is becoming more Godless.
You say apologetics and want ID taught gives christians a bad name (in other words, I give you a bad name). I say nay but it is you.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/7/2007 11:09:23 PM
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Quasar6
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Can we please stay on topic? Meteorite impacts! There's one very good reason Young Earth Creationism shouldn't be taught!
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"If Americans descended from Europeans, why are there still Australians?" Quasar
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/7/2007 11:35:40 PM
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softrain
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Didn't God say:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
*******Sounds like there was alot of moving and heaving going on. Don't you think that when God created gravity, it caused alot of activity aka meteorite impacts?
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/7/2007 11:41:50 PM
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Quasar6
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quote:
*******Sounds like there was alot of moving and heaving going on. Don't you think that when God created gravity, it caused alot of activity aka meteorite impacts?
A nice theory, if not for Noah's flood. The meteorite craters would have been destroyed by a Global Flood capable of carving the grand canyon. Since our craters show no such catastrophic destruction, they must have come after or during the flood... also impossible, for reasons stated only a few posts ago.
_____________________________
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
"If Americans descended from Europeans, why are there still Australians?" Quasar
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/8/2007 12:04:10 AM
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softrain
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Quasar6
A nice theory, if not for Noah's flood. The meteorite craters would have been destroyed by a Global Flood capable of carving the grand canyon. Since our craters show no such catastrophic destruction, they must have come after or during the flood... also impossible, for reasons stated only a few posts ago.
Can you explain simply what the reasons are in three sentences or less? I got muddled down in all the posts....and speaking of mud, the earth would have been one big mudball after the flood.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/8/2007 12:56:10 AM
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Quasar6
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quote:
Can you explain simply what the reasons are in three sentences or less?
Alright, I'll try.
There are more than 150 meteorite craters on earth... and thats only on the land, including the expected ones under the ocean would raise this number to over 400.
Any one of these impacts would be powerful enough to cause a local mass extinction... and some are large enough to cause a global one.
Spread evenly over 6000 years, that would mean one every few decades... life would have enough trouble surviving one, let alone a continual bombardment.
And all at once would wipe the earth clean of life, vaporise the atmosphere, boil the oceans and cause a centuries long "nuclear winter" scenario, from which nothing could recover.
OK, so thats 4 sentences. [childish giggle] Anyhow, that is the reason why the observable Meteorite craters demolish Young Earth theory.
(Note: The effects of these impacts would be devastating even if they hit the oceans (ever seen 'deep impact?'), and hitting mud would be far more explosive. Life wouldn't survive)
_____________________________
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
"If Americans descended from Europeans, why are there still Australians?" Quasar
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/8/2007 8:46:29 PM
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softrain
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Thanks. IMO Either (1) a shower of meteorites happened during the flood because the heavens "opened" . Or (2) during the flood earth (maybe Pangea) cracked and this spewed debris into the air and back down again. Or (3) who says it has to be meteorites? It could have been water that hit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Quasar6
and hitting mud would be far more explosive. Life wouldn't survive)
150 meteorites or even 400 doesn't seem like a whole lot considering it's a big sky up there.
A little rock thrown into mud makes a big splat!
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/8/2007 11:05:25 PM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: softrain
Thanks. IMO Either (1) a shower of meteorites happened during the flood because the heavens "opened" . Or (2) during the flood earth (maybe Pangea) cracked and this spewed debris into the air and back down again. Or (3) who says it has to be meteorites? It could have been water that hit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Quasar6
and hitting mud would be far more explosive. Life wouldn't survive)
150 meteorites or even 400 doesn't seem like a whole lot considering it's a big sky up there.
A little rock thrown into mud makes a big splat!
Yes, precisely. A little rock thrown into mud makes a big splat. Now try having a quite large rock hit that mud at tens of thousands of miles per hour, and you'll find it makes a splat big enough to make a crater sometimes many tens of miles across. That's a huge volume of earth to displace, and comes at a big cost.
1 As Quasar just pointed out, a shower of 150 of the larger meteorites we see evidence of would have wiped out all human and animal life. No chance for anyone, least of all an Ark, to survive.
2 Come on, think about it - meteorites hit the Earth travelling at tens of thousands of miles per hour. By contrast, the fastest speed anything can travel unpropelled down through the atmosphere is a few hundred miles per hour. Anything thrown up by the earth & landing again can't possibly do anything like the damage required to generate the craters we see. Sorry, but this suggestion is just plain silly.
3 Who says it has to be meteorites? The evidence! It is an indisputable fact that meteorites have and will continue to hit the Earth, and it is an indisputable fact that some of the past ones were large enough to wipe out local populations of animals. It's quite reasonable to conclude that the largest might have been so devastating as to cause mass extinction on a global scale (that's just one of them). Now make it 150 or 400 or whatever all at once and there is not the remotest chance anything could have survived.
Now, given that enough did survive to continue life, where'd all the craters come from?
Regards, Ian
Regards, Ian
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/15/2008 10:12:44 AM
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BVZ
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Does any creationist have a response yet?
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/15/2008 4:14:22 PM
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scutus
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174 meteorite impact sites have been found on land so far. There are of course many more that have been obscured completely by geological processes or that are still waiting to be found under the ocean (although many more have probably been subducted along with the crust).
Each of these impacts profoundly changed the climate, landscapes and life on the planet. The problem then is how to square these impacts with the belief in a 6000 year old Earth.
It's not very likely that a pre-Fall paradise had asteroids hitting every so often. So lets say they hit after the Fall. But it doesn't seem likely that Adam and Eve's small progeny of humans could survive 174+ (remember the ones hidden under the oceans) asteroid impacts.
So lets say they happened during the Flood. Why not after the Flood? The animal gene pool would be susceptible to extinction (what would you expect after a ridiculous population bottleneck) and not numerous enough to survive multiple world-changing impacts. And indeed, it gets worse as we get closer and closer to our time, because of course all sorts of civilisations were around then, ready to record any world-ending asteroid impact with stylus or chisel in hand.
So, the asteroid impacts must have happened during the Flood, which Answers in Genesis dates to 2348 BC. The Flood of course, was only a year long.
The same rationale for placing the impacts during the Flood applies to the other natural events that I've previously listed. Not only bolide impacts, but supervolcano eruptions and large igneous events. Include in the creationist idea of catastrophic plate tectonics, and you've got hundreds of millions of years worth of end-of-the-world events, squished by necessity into a single year.
There's a lot of problems with this scenario however. Most importantly, the Biblical account does not mention any of these catastrophic events, any one of which would be sufficient to radically alter the world's climates/landscapes/lifeforms.
Second, even if by some incredibly bizarre miracle the Ark survives the hundreds of metres tall waves, or the trillions of tonnes of superheated water vapour, acid rain, rock, dust blanketing the world - it's not possible for the world to do the same. Floating vegetation, fish, crustaceans, krill, phytoplankton, whales, insects and so on cannot survive nuclear winter conditions brought on by the asteroids alone.
The flood basalt events are worse, coinciding with three of Earth's biggest mass extinctions. The Deccan Traps with the K-T extinction, the Central Atlantic Magmatic Province with the Tr-J extinction and the biggest extinction of them all, the Permian Triassic with the Siberian Traps. All three would pump mind-boggling amounts of sulfuric aerosols and dust into the atmosphere, further shutting down photosynthesis if it wasn't dead already, also pumping massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere causing severe global warming. This severe global warming by the way would be long lasting, and still with us today - those creationist efforts to date the (multiple) ice ages would be fruitless, since there likely wouldn't be one. One eruption after the other, one impact after the other, compounded by the supervolcanos, and that's if the oceans haven't been boiled off by the continents separating!
God may have supernaturally protected the Ark, but all the animals outside wouldn't have been. They'd be deader than dead.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/15/2008 8:38:02 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I don't know much about this subject, but I've always wondered where the meteorites go after they hit the earth. Are they under the dirt, and how far? Have they been able to find them?
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/15/2008 11:55:10 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I don't know much about this subject, but I've always wondered where the meteorites go after they hit the earth. Are they under the dirt, and how far? Have they been able to find them?
At Meteor Crater in Arizona, chunks of iron-y meteorite were found in the area around the crater, but in the crater itself, the energetics of the collision are such that the meteorite was, I believe, entirely vaporized.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 3:42:36 AM
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scutus
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quote:
I don't know much about this subject, but I've always wondered where the meteorites go after they hit the earth. Are they under the dirt, and how far? Have they been able to find them? They usually vaporise on impact, especially the big ones.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 8:41:11 AM
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Consecrated2God
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Vaporize? How do they know that?
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 8:49:47 AM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Vaporize? How do they know that?
I don't know but I'll guess - I'd say that one the one hand, we can calculate what would happen to a meteorite of size x made up of given materials (based on the assessment of known examples).
Also presumably since if evidence of the meteorite has been found, in the absence of any other explanation for an enormous hole shaped just like other holes formed by meteorites, it's reasonable to assume that it vaporised on impact.
Anyway the key point here is that we know for a fact that some very large meteorites collided with Earth, and if this had happened after the Flood it would have made life impossible on Earth. So when did they all hit Earth? If before/during the Flood, why does the evidence remain - why was it not washed away by the Flood?
This topic is a good example of the fact that there is a great deal more evidence to dismiss than simply Evolution Theory for one to accept a YEC position.
Regards, Ian
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 8:55:30 AM
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Consecrated2God
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It just seems a little incredible to me that a rock that could survive going through the atmoshphere could just vaporize. Have they tried experiments to see if that's even possible?
I'm wondering if there's another explanation other than meteorites, such as volcanos or something.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 9:15:44 AM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
It just seems a little incredible to me that a rock that could survive going through the atmoshphere could just vaporize. Have they tried experiments to see if that's even possible?
I'm wondering if there's another explanation other than meteorites, such as volcanos or something.
There might be other explanations - but the result of the impact is the same. An amount of soil was displaced, which required a great deal of explosive impact energy.
Also meteorites leave traces for us to detect - just googled this interesting article, for example.
Volcano eruptions is another interesting topic - consider the number of catastrophic volcanic events which have occurred. Squishing all of them, not to mention a few ice ages, into the very very short time period between the Flood and the first written human history, makes for a turbulent period on Earth. Especially when one also considers continental movement.
Regards, Ian
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 9:22:03 AM
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Consecrated2God
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I do believe that there wa a very turbulent time in history right after the Flood. The continental movement is probably referred to in this passage:
quote:
Gen 10:25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided, and his brother's name was Joktan.
Earthquakes and volcanoes would have been numerous after the foundations of the deep were violantly broken up. Maybe there were meteorites during that time, too. That would definitely be a scary time to be alive.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 9:27:44 AM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I do believe that there wa a very turbulent time in history right after the Flood. The continental movement is probably referred to in this passage:
quote:
Gen 10:25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided, and his brother's name was Joktan.
Earthquakes and volcanoes would have been numerous after the foundations of the deep were violantly broken up. Maybe there were meteorites during that time, too. That would definitely be a scary time to be alive.
However the turbulence you describe, caused by meteorites alone, would have been ample to wipe out all life on Earth. It's not a case of maybe meteorites occurring those times - we have clear evidence of their impact. They did hit the Earth. We can quite easily calculate the consequence of each impact.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 9:44:17 AM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
However the turbulence you describe, caused by meteorites alone, would have been ample to wipe out all life on Earth.
At that point there wasn't much life on earth anyway. God had already wiped it all out, except for Noah and his family and two of every kind of animal (plus extra for sacrifices). There may have been some reproducing during that time, but they didn't spread out until the time of the tower of Babel.
quote:
It's not a case of maybe meteorites occurring those times - we have clear evidence of their impact. They did hit the Earth. We can quite easily calculate the consequence of each impact.
Except no one has actually seen a meteorite so they guessed it must have vaporized. That still seems a little far-fetched to me, personally. I think I'll wait and ask God when I get to heaven what actually happened before assuming the craters were left by metorites.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 9:53:45 AM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
It's not a case of maybe meteorites occurring those times - we have clear evidence of their impact. They did hit the Earth. We can quite easily calculate the consequence of each impact.
Except no one has actually seen a meteorite so they guessed it must have vaporized. That still seems a little far-fetched to me, personally. I think I'll wait and ask God when I get to heaven what actually happened before assuming the craters were left by metorites.
I'm afraid you are mistaken - we have many meteorites. Sometimes they vapourise before they hit Earth's surface, and sometimes they don't.
One passed over our house recently. It was about the size of a small coin. Nonetheless, the sonic boom was heard over a 300 mile path. If a coin-sized meteorite can create that kind of effect, it's horrifying to contemplate what one a few miles across would do.
It is of no consequence what the population on Earth was at the time they hit - in fact, the smaller the population, the more risky the consequences.
Regards, Ian
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 9:59:34 AM
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Consecrated2God
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I mean the big ones, of course. I know people have seen the smaller ones. I'm just wondering if there's any proof that a big giant rock could vaporize. Has anyone ever seen that happen?
quote:
It is of no consequence what the population on Earth was at the time they hit
God just brought these people through a flood. His hand of deliverance was on them. He had called them and set them apart to bring them through the disaster He had planned for the earth. I don't think it would have been hard for Him to protect them from the effects of meteorites upon the earth as well.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 10:11:28 AM
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ianz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I mean the big ones, of course. I know people have seen the smaller ones. I'm just wondering if there's any proof that a big giant rock could vaporize. Has anyone ever seen that happen?
quote:
It is of no consequence what the population on Earth was at the time they hit
God just brought these people through a flood. His hand of deliverance was on them. He had called them and set them apart to bring them through the disaster He had planned for the earth. I don't think it would have been hard for Him to protect them from the effects of meteorites upon the earth as well.
I've got no problem with this faith-based position - to my mind, this is the most honest YEC position, that God actively helped the people and animals. It's a lot more satisfying as an answer than coming up with implausible natural-world explanations.
But it completely eliminates the possibility of debate. If the response is that where the natural world could not support life, God helped out, then we cannot observe the natural world and conclude what too place.
One might ask the question - why did God not inspire Moses to write of these events? Our calculations tell us that the Flood, by comparison, would have been a picnic compared to the havoc wreaked on Earth by meteorites, let alone all the other events. He wrote of many other occasions when God helped the people, but none nearly as dramatic as these events would have required.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 8/16/2008 10:30:52 AM
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scutus
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Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:
Vaporize? How do they know that?
Vaporisation describes liquid changing to a gaseous state, so it is technically incorrect to describe an asteroid vaporising, but in everyday lingo when something blows up, we say it's 'vaporised'. It gets the point across that when an asteroid explodes, the constitutent parts become really, really, really small bits, melted or otherwise.
So are you asking how scientists know that asteroids explode into really small bits when they hit the atmosphere or the ground?
quote:
It just seems a little incredible to me that a rock that could survive going through the atmoshphere could just vaporize. As explained above, it's not really vaporisation.
A 10 km diameter asteroid, the sort that contributed to the extinction of the dinosaurs, travelling at 20 km/sec, punches through the atmosphere and ocean like it wasn't there. The asteroid is melted, along with the impact site, and the effect is akin to vaporisation - you can see that in the layer of iridium from the asteroid in the K-T boundary.
Also, an asteroid doesn't have to reach the ground to 'vaporise'. The Tunguska asteroid exploded some 12 km above ground, yet it was the resulting shockwave that caused the devastation. The asteroid debris didn't meet the ground. By the way, the latest research places the magnitude of the event at only 3-5 megatons. Still powerful enough to easily flatten any city on Earth, but a pipsqueak to the 100 million megatons released at Chicxulub.
And it's only third in the rankings of the biggest asteroid impacts.
quote:
Have they tried experiments to see if that's even possible? Yes, they have and do. Geologists punch objects into various types of materials to see how craters form.
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