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ORIGINAL: USincognito

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ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
As for signs that it happened...the many fossils that are found is one sign. A world-wide flood would surely leave a lot of dead animals in its wake that would be rapidly buried and hence fossilized. (I know you probably see the fossil record as evidence of millions of years of animals dying, being buried, etc.)

Do Creationists even stop and think about what they're saying when they make this rediculous assertion?

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Do they even stop for one moment and consider that all those plants and animals would be living at the same time so the Earth must have been covered with wall to wall (er... pillar to pillar?) with plants and animals living on top of each other so there would have been enough to drown and fill the entire geological column with their fossils? I guess that's the beauty of ad hoc assertions, you don't need to sweat or even think about the details.

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ORIGINAL: scutus
2.5 And God chuck a hissy fit...

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ORIGINAL: shernren

Then again, the "perfect" Garden of Eden apparently had a Tree of Doom complete with complimentary reptilian marketer. Who's to say what God's idea of "very good" is? :P

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ORIGINAL: Plebe

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ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Any thing I show you will be interpretations of the evidence from YEC's that you have probably already seen and rejected.

Have you ever thought about this? Might it be that it is rejected because their claims run contrary to evidence?

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There are too many fossils to be explained by a singular event, much less a young earth.

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For example, the Appalachians are made up of thousands of feet of dead marine invertebrates. The chalk in the cliffs at Dover are made up of hundreds of feet of tiny little single celled animals. These can not be explained by a flood, much less a 2,000 year history before a flood.

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ORIGINAL: jmeert

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By the way, I do believe that the global flood was miraculous..

It HAS to be because it came and went without any physical trace.

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People posting here usually have already made up there minds and many times are only posting to "set a trap" as it were,

Or maybe simply to make sure that trashy creation/ID politics does not permeate the internet masquerading as science.

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I am growing curious as to your purpose in debating this and other issues like it.

I am growing curious as to your purpose.

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What I mainly have recently been doing now is looking for people that post with questions that are trying to find out information they do not know or fully understand because they are looking for the correct world-view, looking for the best way to interpret the Bible, etc. I also look for when the YEC view is misrepresented by those that do not accept it.

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I am not sure of your stance on Scripture and what you consider yourself (Christian, agnostic, etc.). I understand that you do not accept the YEC position and am curious just what type of world-view you hold to - theistic evolution, naturalistic (materialistic) evolution, some type of OEC.

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You saying such does not make it true.

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If creationism is so weak and unsupported as you claim, then why worry if people see what YEC teaches?

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To add to this, as a Christian I hope to lead the lost to Christ.

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Your stance on Scripture and your world-view?

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ORIGINAL: jmeert

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If creationism is so weak and unsupported as you claim, then why worry if people see what YEC teaches?

In the privacy of the pulpit, or the home I really don't care. When YEC/ID try to legislate their views to others or demand it be taught on equal footing with solid science, I'll step in as often as is necessary.

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What YEC organization is demanding that YEC be taught along side evolution in public schools?

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(Calling long-age evolution "solid science" is debateable - I know what you believe about it; I am just pointing out that not everyone agrees with you call "solid science")

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ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Care to explain why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an "evil" or "imperfect" creation of God's? Do you know just what the "reptilian marker" was to which I assume you are referring? Your comment seems to indicate that either you do not have an accurate understanding of it or you are deliberating trying to misrepresent it (or you do not care).

(The tree itself was not imperfect nor was the fact that God put the tree in the garden. The "imperfection" came about because of Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God's command regarding the tree. Satan (the serpent) had already sinned before Adam and Eve. If one believes that God created the angels during creation week, this would have included the angel that later would become Satan. This would mean that at the end of creation week, when God pronounced His creation "very good", the angel that would become Satan would not have sinned yet. It would have been some time between the end of creation week and when Satan tempted Eve that the angel would have sinned. Yes, I know this is way off topic, but off topic comments keep being made that deserve a response. This above could have its own thread.)

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ORIGINAL: CCCdnt

Have you ever studied just what it is that creationists actually believe?

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ORIGINAL: scutus

CCCdnt, do you have an explanation yet for the meteorite impacts?

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ORIGINAL: jmeert

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What YEC organization is demanding that YEC be taught along side evolution in public schools?

Just about all of them.

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I know that one of the more well-known organizations - Answers in Genesis - does not support this.

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Answers in Genesis sincerely hopes that Ohio will make an unambiguous stand in defense of the liberty of teachers and students to discuss the problems with evolution and to offer alternative explanations.

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Although we oppose evolution, Answers in Genesis does not believe that the government should compel teachers to teach creation. (It would be counterproductive to make an atheist teach creation, anyway!). However, it seems reasonable that state and local officials should take steps to protect the liberty of individual teachers and students who wish to discuss the problems with evolution and offer alternative explanations.

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ORIGINAL: jmeert

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I know that one of the more well-known organizations - Answers in Genesis - does not support this.

Really, then why does their website state the following:

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Answers in Genesis sincerely hopes that Ohio will make an unambiguous stand in defense of the liberty of teachers and students to discuss the problems with evolution and to offer alternative explanations.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/1017ohio.asp

or

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Although we oppose evolution, Answers in Genesis does not believe that the government should compel teachers to teach creation. (It would be counterproductive to make an atheist teach creation, anyway!). However, it seems reasonable that state and local officials should take steps to protect the liberty of individual teachers and students who wish to discuss the problems with evolution and offer alternative explanations.

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I guess I did not understand the view in detail enough. From this I would interpret AiG's stand to be that they do not believe that the government should try to force public school teachers to teach creation. However, they have no problem with school teachers that want to present an alternate view of origins from doing so. I also think that teachers should be allowed to present the problems with evolution and make known alternate theories.

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ORIGINAL: scutus

CCCdnt, have you gotten an explanation yet?

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ORIGINAL: CCCdnt

No. As I said, this will probably take a while. Researching this is not on my top priority list. I have many other areas that take up my time - family for one.

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For those of you who think the world is geologically young e.g. <6000 years.

How do you explain meteorite impacts? There are over 150 major impact sites found on Earth, all or most of them dated by geologists to be much, much older than 6000 years. So if the Earth is only 6000 years old, then all 150 major meteorite impacts must have happened since the creation of the world. The combined impacts are powerful enough to destroy all or most multicellular life on Earth. So how did life survive?

Can't have happened pre-Fall. Obviously, the Fall was 'perfect' and you can't have apocalyptic, extremely destructive asteroids raining in on your paradise.

So some time in the last 6000 years, when man was cast out of Eden and was walking the Earth, the biggest asteroids in Earth's history were impacting.

Pff, so what you say? A little asteroid impact can't hurt. Or...can it?

The Hiroshima bomb was rated at 15 kilotons of energy and it pulverised the city.

The largest nuclear bomb ever made was the Tsar Bomba. It is the most powerful weapon humanity has ever created. It rates at 50 megatons (millions of tonnes of TNT). Nuclear weapons at about 10 megatons or less will utterly destroy any city on Earth.

The Chicxulub Crater located on the Yucatan Peninsula is at least partly responsible for the mass extinction at the end of the Late Cretaceous period. The crater is 170 km in diameter. The asteroid that created it was about 10 km in diameter. It struck with the estimated energy of 15 billion Hiroshima bombs. Or about 100 million megatons. Immediately, immense firestorms, titanic tsunamis and indescribably destructive hurricane-force winds (as well as super-hurricanes themselves) swept across the world. The energy released was so great, that the ejecta composed of billions of tonnes of rock and soil rose above the Earth's atmosphere, and covered the world. For up to 2 years, the dust blocked the sunlight. For some time, it was too dark to see anything. Imagine the immense and immediate impact it had on plants that needed photosynthesis. Imagine the impact on the phytoplankton in the seas, the basis of the marine food web. Temperatures dropped below freezing in many places around the world.

That was the K-T extinction event. And that was apparently, only 6000 years ago according to YECs.

But there were even bigger impact events.

The Wilkes Land Crater, found in Antarctica is hypothesised to be an impact crater. It is about 500 km wide. The asteroid that created this crater would need to be six times bigger than the Chicxulub asteroid. It could have contributed to the biggest mass-extinction of all time that occurred in the Permian-Triassic boundary, some 250 million years ago. Using this impact calculator: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/

I get something around the order of 1.03 x 10^10 MegaTons TNT. But my maths is abhorrent. I don't think it's right. 1.03 x 10^10 is 10 300 000 000, but that can't be right.

Distance from Impact: 100.00 km = 62.10 miles
Projectile Diameter: 65000.00 m = 213200.00 ft = 40.37 miles
Projectile Density: 1500 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 20.00 km/s = 12.42 miles/s
Impact Angle: 45 degrees
Target Density: 1500 kg/m3
Target Type: Crystalline Rock

Still, I don't even want to think about the apocalyptic effects of this one. If this crater is the real deal of course.

But wait. There are more:

How about the Vredefort crater? The crater is 300 km wide, nearly double the Chicxulub crater's width. It is the oldest and biggest (verified) crater on Earth. At the least, it is a 100 million megaton event. More likely, it is on the order of twice that, but the impact was so long ago that it is difficult to be certain.

The second largest confirmed crater is at Sudbury in Canada. The asteroid that caused it was 10 km in diameter (similar to the K-T extinction event). The crater is 260 km wide. Still yet larger than the Chicxulub crater. It hit nearly 2 billion years ago.

These are all extremely large meteorite impacts, yet there are over a hundred other major ones that we can still observe on the Earth's surface.

So how do YECs explain all this mass devastation? How did life and more importantly, man survive the repeated impacts of a hundred and fifty major asteroids that released hundreds to tens of millions of megatons? Why have a Flood in the first place? Why not use these asteroids?

More info on the apocalyptic nature of just one of these world-screwy-uppy asteroids: http://users.tpg.com.au/users/horsts/climate.htm

The effects are GLOBAL. MASS EXTINCTIONS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

We're also forgetting the impacts that hit the sea floor but were subducted under and so we cannot see their craters anymore. That boosts the numbers of impacts up, although by how much can't be said. But consider that most of the planet is covered in water.

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Why have a Flood in the first place? Why not use these asteroids?

Because we can come up with a way to survive a flood (build a big boat) but we can't come up with a way to survive half the earths surface being turned into a fiery hell hole (after the massive shockwave, which would sythe off just about everything) and a massive dust cloud blocking out all sunlight for a couple years, dropping world temperature to record breaking levels everywhere (this is after the global burning rain, by the way)...

Not to mention the tidal-waves, hypercanes (like hurricanes, but more so), radiation, etc...

You know, that is a very good question. It also raises philosophical issues about the nature of God. BOOM! BURN! FREEZE! DIE! Hardly the actions of a merciful creator.

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Needless to say, this is just one evidence from literally thousands and thousands that go directly against a global Flood. IT NEVER HAPPENED. Geologists would know!

6000 years divided by 170 land meteorite impacts = a meteorite impact every 35 years. So every couple of decades, a big meteorite hits somewhere in the world. Every couple of centuries, a mass-extinction type asteroid hits the Earth. Organisms are set alight, broken in half, drowned, frozen and starved. The Permian asteroid kills off 95% of all living creatures.

This is what you get when you spread the asteroid impacts out evenly over 6000 years.

But that's not logical. If a major asteroid kept hitting the Earth regularly all the way to the present, we'd know about it. More importantly, the Ancient Egyptians and the Ancient Chinese and the Ancient Indians would have known about it. They lived >3000 years ago. So it must have happened in a short stretch of time when all these ancient civilisations didn't exist, but still after the creation of the Earth.

So you're looking at 2000 years of free-time for the asteroids to hit the Earth, without any major civilisations writing about it. Of course, we're forgetting the Australian Aboriginals, who lived in Australia for 60,000 years. And there's a big, BIG (claimed) crater in Australia called the Bedout crater. It is a contender for the mass extinction event at the end of the Permian. The crater is 200 km across. Still bigger than the Chicxulub. You'd think the Australian would notice that earth-shattering asteroid and pass that knowledge down through rock drawings or oral traditions. Of course, there's a high probability that they'd be DEAD. The Bedout impact would be absolutely devastating. So sometime in the last 6000 years, an impact bigger than the one that killed the dinosaurs hit Australia and wiped out the Australian Aboriginals. But sometime in the last 3000 years, new Australian Aboriginals migrated over from some Pacific Islands and colonised their ancient land? Does this make sense AT ALL?

Getting back to the main point. Ignoring the Australians, we have 2000 years (at best) of free-time before someone writes or draws about the mass shower of life-ending asteroids.

That also brings up the interesting question of why all the asteroids fell in a short stretch of time but not any more. What stopped them?

Explain how life survived when all 170 major asteroids hit within a 2000 year stretch.

[edit] Actually, lets bump up those 170 asteroids to 300. We're forgetting the ocean-hitting asteroids of course.

[edit] And if it hit all at once...not much better. The effects of one mass extinction event is staggering, but add half a dozen more at the same time and...well, game over.

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Five impact sites are more than 100 km wide. Including Chicxulub.

Twenty impact sites are 40 km or more wide, including the five +100 km craters.

Please, oh please. Someone explain this to me.

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But wait...it's not only the meteorite impacts that happened in the last 2000 years. It was the SUPERVOLCANOES TOO! And the Deccan Flows! And the Ice Age! And the separation of Pangaea!

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Lets talk a bit about supervolcanoes. Supervolcanoes are volcanoes that produce the biggest sorts of eruption on Earth. These are absolutely titanic eruptions of tens of billions of tonnes of ash, rock and sulphuric acid. It's hard to get your head around the idea of how mind-numbingly powerful these eruptions are compared to normal volcanoes. It's like comparing firecrackers to nuclear weapons.

There is a lake in Indonesia, called Toba. It is a supervolcano and it erupted 75,000 years ago.

Mount St Helens produced 0.2 cubic kilometres of ash.

The largest historical eruption was Tambora. It killed tens of thousands of people and the ash released caused the global climate to swing: quote:

The eruption created global climate anomalies in the following years. 1816 became known as the Year Without a Summer because of the extreme weather impact on North America and Europe. The global summer temperature dropped 0.5°C (32.9°F) below average, snows fell in midsummer and Europe experienced an unusually stormy winter. In the Northern Hemisphere, agricultural crops failed and livestock died. It was the worst famine of the century.[3]It produced about 40 cubic kilometres of ash.

Mount Toba produced...800 cubic kilometres of ash alone. Its effects on fledgling humanity was devastating to say the least. Even though Toba is in Indonesia, you can find ash all the way over in India that is up to your ankles. In some places, it's 6 metres.

The nuclear winter type scenario that resulted from the eruption and the amount of sulphur and ash that would block the sunlight, decreased the global average temperature by 3 to 3.5 degrees for a couple of years. Crops would die. Just one centimetre of ash can ruin agricultural crops in their growing season. Genetic evidence suggests that the human species underwent a severe genetic bottleneck at that time. It's been suggested that between 1000-10000 humans survived the event. We are all descendants of those survivors.

Geologists call the amount of matter produced 'magnitude' and the rate of magma eruption 'intensity'.

Vesuvius erupted 100,000 cubic metres of magma per second over 24 hours. That is mind-boggling. Yet supervolcanoes can produce a hundred million cubic metres per second. Like I said before, it is hard to even imagine the sheer destructive force that a supervolcano has.

So Toba punted humanity to the edge of extinction. Yet it is still small fries to larger supervolcanic eruptions that happened hundreds of thousands of years ago.

For example, the Yellowstone Caldera. It measures a staggering 72 kilometres long and 55 kilometres wide. It has undergone three seperate supervolcanic explosions, the most recent of which is 640,000 years ago.

In the latest event, 1000 cubic kilometres of material was released.

The second eruption sent up 250 cubic kilometres and it was about 1.2 million years ago.

The biggest and first eruption produced 2500 cubic kilometres about 2.2 million years ago.

All three eruptions sent up vast, vast amounts of ash that covered states as far away as California and Iowa, choking animals and plants to death. All three eruptions would release vast amounts of gases like sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere, affecting the global climate. The effects would be similar to the Toba supervolcano, except even worse. If it happened now, there's a real chance that the human species could be threatened as agriculture collapses and millions (possibly a billion) people die from starvation.

Of course, we're forgetting the immediate impacts of the IMMENSE pyroclastic flows that would swallow up all living creatures in their path. Nothing living and I mean nothing, can survive these vast clouds of hot ash that can travel at 100m/s.

Gases, dust and ash reflect solar radiation back into space or absorb the heat. Global winter will arrive for years. The Toba eruption alone caused changes in the atmosphere for 6 years, which we can check with ice cores.

These are just two supervolcanoes. There are more:

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Many other supermassive eruptions have also occurred in the geological past. Those listed below measured 7 on the VEI scale. Most of these were larger than Tambora's eruption in 1815, which was the largest eruption in recorded history.

* Aira Caldera, Kyûshû, Japan - 22,000 years ago (110 km³)
* Aso, Kyûshû, Japan - four large explosive eruptions between 300,000 to 80,000 years ago (Total volume 600 km³)
* Kikai Caldera, Ryûkyû Islands, Japan - 6,300 years ago (150 km³ (bulk volume))
* Lake Taupo, North Island, New Zealand - 181 AD (100 km³)
* Long Valley Caldera, California, United States - 760,000 years ago (600 km³)
* Valle Grande, New Mexico, United States - 1.12 million years ago (~600 km³)
* Bruneau-Jarbidge, Idaho, United States - 10-12 million years ago (>250 km³) (responsible for the Ashfall Fossil Beds 1,600 km to the east[1])


How do young earth creationists fit these supervolcano eruptions into 6000 years? And how did humanity survive when they had to contend with massive asteroids too at the same time?

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How do you explain meteorite impacts?

Hey, this is a neat thread. True colors are showing all over the place.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0524impact.asp


http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i1/crater.asp

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Hey, this is a neat thread. True colors are showing all over the place.

Well, what do you expect if you just leave us chat among ourselves?

PS: Neither of your two links give any explanation whatsoever for how life survived over 170 impacts (If some of them are "Verneshot explosion's", it makes no difference, they'd have much the same effect on life), AND the super-volcano's going off on the other side of the world (Its true, both craters have a period of super-volcanic activity, dated at the same time, on the opposite side of the earth. Its generally believed that the massive seismic waves created by the impact passed around and through the earth, meeting each other on the opposite side and destabilising the local volcanos).

This sounds like Armageddon type stuff, but according to you guys it happened at most 6000 years ago (Edit: 4400 years ago, acording to UncleMonkey), and humans survived it.

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So... Noah built a wooden boat, got on and hoped for the best. Then:

The entire earth was literally carpet bombed with massive rocks, which caused all the supervolcano's to let off at the same time. Not only would such an event burn up the atmospheres supply of oxygen, it would create tidal waves possibly as high as Everest. The massive shockwaves would have torn apart anything exposed, the country-sized lava flows would have fried everything left and to top it all off you are then looking at possibly centuries of nuclear winter because of the global dust cloud.

All fine so far... God protected them (sort of demolishes you're "how did the plants survive" theory, though). So they go out into... well, that depends...

If the short term aftereffects are still continuing... burning rain, acute radiation poisoning, earthquakes, lava-flows...
If the short term stuff has stopped... close to absolute-zero temperatures, total darkness, ash everywhere (volcanic ash is made up of tiny, razor sharp particles, which damage the lungs and eyes, causing blindness and suffocation)... Disease from the corpses everywhere...

Need I continue?