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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 9:01:30 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
You dont know? You sure have a hard time wading through Roman Catholic doctrines dont you? I told you that I do not reject Jesus Christ, but I flat out reject the RCC Eucharistic sacrament.
Wading through Christian doctrines... well it's more like swimming according to Ezekiel (cf. Ez 47)
I don't know whether you are free. That is betweeen God and you.
quote:
Your Sola Scripture diversion does nothing at all.
So you agree that my syllogism against Sola Scriptura is logical and true? Once a person begins to think more logically, they invariablly move toward Christianity, or more deeply into a relationship with Jesus Christ.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/28/2009 9:09:03 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 4:23:43 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Patricius, you keep banging your own drum about how great your syllogism is, but it has already been demonstrated false. Why do you keep bragging about something that is false?
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
1.For a doctrine to be sure, it must be confirmed by the highest doctrinal authority.
True
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2.S.S. proponents say that Scripture alone is the highest doctrinal authority.
True
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3.But the Scriptures do not teach that they alone are the highest authority.
False
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4.Therefore, those with the S.S. doctrine are not sure of this doctrine.
False
From Old Testament to New, the written word always holds precedent over oral teaching and tradition. Scripture itself is chock full of this truth.
Rome has maybe two verses that they try to force into elevating oral tradition to the status of "Word of God". I find that endlessly ironic, since in order to claim that oral tradition is an equal authority to written Scripture, Rome has to appeal to written Scripture!
Here is a syllogism for you:
1. Rome claims that the authority of oral tradition is equal to the authority of written Scripture
2. In order to claim that the authority of oral tradition is equal to the authority of written Scripture, Rome has to appeal to written Scripture
3. Therefore, Rome admits that written Scripture is the standard by which oral tradition must be judged and contradicts its own teaching
LOLlerskates! 
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 4:33:08 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
1. Rome claims that the authority of oral tradition is equal to the authority of written Scripture
True. Neither can stand without the other.
quote:
2. In order to claim that the authority of oral tradition is equal to the authority of written Scripture, Rome has to appeal to written Scripture
True. Likewise, to claim authority for the written Scriptures, we must appeal to the oral Word. (For example...apart from the extra-biblical tradition of the Catholic Church, we have no source of the N.T. Canon.)
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3. Therefore, Rome admits that written Scripture is the standard by which oral tradition must be judged and contradicts its own teaching
How so?
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quote:
3.But the Scriptures do not teach that they alone are the highest authority.
False
Evidence?
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From Old Testament to New, the written word always holds precedent over oral teaching and tradition. Scripture itself is chock full of this truth.
Evidence?
In the case of the Sacrament of the Lord's Table, the Scriptures are explicit in Jn 6:51-58. The "pure symbolism" argument is an oral tradition which does not reflect the Word of God, in either the written or the oral form.
"It is good and beneficial to communicate every day, and to partake of the holy body and blood of Christ. For He distinctly says, 'He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life.' And who doubts that to share frequently in life, is the same thing as to have manifold life?"
Basil,To Patrician Caesaria,Epistle 93(A.D. 372),in NPNF2,VIII:179
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/28/2009 8:59:08 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 5:53:52 PM
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AskSeekKnock
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/9/2005
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Deuteronomy 8:3 "So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
John 6:60-63 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 8:55:26 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AskSeekKnock
Deuteronomy 8:3 "So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
John 6:60-63 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Thanks, AskSeekKnock, those are all very relevant verses it seems to me.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 8:40:11 AM
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AskSeekKnock
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/9/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
ORIGINAL: AskSeekKnock
Deuteronomy 8:3 "So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
John 6:60-63 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Thanks, AskSeekKnock, those are all very relevant verses it seems to me.
Thanks patricius79, I'm glad you think so. I'm not trying to defend the RCC view here though. I am trying to defend that the written word always holds precedent as ManimaX put it. That's why the verse in 2 Timothy is relevant because it says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
And, the symbolism you say isn't there, is seen in the verses from John. The flesh profits nothing, it is the words that Jesus spoke that are spirit, and they are life.
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 9:10:19 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
Thanks patricius79, I'm glad you think so.
You are welcome. Any Spiritually quoted Scripture will help us to see clearly.
quote:
I'm not trying to defend the RCC view here though. I am trying to defend that the written word always holds precedent as ManimaX put it.
That the written Word holds precedence over the oral Word is an idea not in the Word.
quote:
That's why the verse in 2 Timothy is relevant because it says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work
Scripture is “profitable” (and indispensable)—but not all-sufficient—for teaching, correction, rebuke, and training in rightousness, so that a man be complete for every good work.
This is the Catholic position, that the Scriptures, with the oral Tradition as preserved by those with corrective authority in the Church (the Magisterium), make a man complete for every good work.
For more on this issue:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
quote:
And, the symbolism you say isn't there, is seen in the verses from John. The flesh profits nothing, it is the words that Jesus spoke that are spirit, and they are life.
Ordinary bread symbolizes Jesus Christ. Totally down with that.
However, I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of “flesh” in this context. Jesus is certaintly not saying that his body is of no avail. He just said in Jn 6:51 that he would give his flesh for the life of the world. Likewise, he couldn’t mean that our bodies are of no avail, since the Scriptures teach that our bodies are instruments of righteousness and holy and living sacrifices which we are to keep whole and undstained until the Day. Cf. e.g. Romans 12:1.
Rather, “the flesh” Christ refers to in Jn 6:63 is the human weakness which refuses to accept the teaching of the Holy Spirit, as given in Jn 6:51-58.
I don't object to symbols or seeing symbols. I do take exception to any denial of the literal sense of a text. The reduction of Jn 6:51-58 to symbolism--as against the historic understanding of the Body of Christ-- is very contrary to the text as given.
For more on this Scripture:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
for the historical Church's understanding of these verses:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/29/2009 9:58:36 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 10:58:20 AM
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AskSeekKnock
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
Thanks patricius79, I'm glad you think so.
You are welcome. Any Spiritually quoted Scripture will help us to see clearly.
quote:
I'm not trying to defend the RCC view here though. I am trying to defend that the written word always holds precedent as ManimaX put it.
That the written Word holds precedence over the oral Word is an idea not in the Word.
quote:
That's why the verse in 2 Timothy is relevant because it says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work
Scripture is “profitable” (and indispensable)—but not all-sufficient—for teaching, correction, rebuke, and training in rightousness, so that a man be complete for every good work.
This is the Catholic position, that the Scriptures, with the oral Tradition as preserved by those with corrective authority in the Church (the Magisterium), make a man complete for every good work.
For more on this issue:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
quote:
And, the symbolism you say isn't there, is seen in the verses from John. The flesh profits nothing, it is the words that Jesus spoke that are spirit, and they are life.
Ordinary bread symbolizes Jesus Christ. Totally down with that.
However, I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of “flesh” in this context. Jesus is certaintly not saying that his body is of no avail. He just said in Jn 6:51 that he would give his flesh for the life of the world. Likewise, he couldn’t mean that our bodies are of no avail, since the Scriptures teach that our bodies are instruments of righteousness and holy and living sacrifices which we are to keep whole and undstained until the Day. Cf. e.g. Romans 12:1.
Rather, “the flesh” Christ refers to in Jn 6:63 is the human weakness which refuses to accept the teaching of the Holy Spirit, as given in Jn 6:51-58.
I don't object to symbols or seeing symbols. I do take exception to any denial of the literal sense of a text. The reduction of Jn 6:51-58 to symbolism--as against the historic understanding of the Body of Christ-- is very contrary to the text as given.
For more on this Scripture:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
for the historical Church's understanding of these verses:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
Yes, I agree the flesh is weak, but I thought that when Jesus spoke of "flesh" in John 6:63 we had to go back to the previous use of the word that was mentioned last to be in context, right? Seems like I have read that somewhere before. And sense the last use of flesh was in John 6:56 "For my flesh is food indeed , and my body is drink indeed. So, the reference of flesh in John 6:63 would have to reference John 6:56 right? Therefore; the flesh profits nothing. And if you look at the opening line of 6:63, It is the Spirit who gives life;
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 1:12:18 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
Yes, I agree the flesh is weak, but I thought that when Jesus spoke of "flesh" in John 6:63 we had to go back to the previous use of the word that was mentioned last to be in context, right? Seems like I have read that somewhere before.
This may be true if such an interpretation weren't a contradiction. Obviously, we can't hold that Christ's flesh gives life to the world (cf. Jn 6:51), and then hold that his flesh is "of no avail." Over and over in the immediate context, Jesus affirms that his flesh is life-giving, and that if we recieve it, we will have life. (And Scripture says our own bodies do avail. Cf. Rom 6:13, 12:1)
Morever, between Christ's emphatic statements about his flesh (verses 51-56etc) and the "the flesh is no avail statement", you have the passage about how some were murmuring (i.e. those who refused to believe and then departed in verse 6:66.) It is apparently to this unbelief (indocility to the HolySpirit) that Christ refers. Otherwise, I would have no understanding of why Christ said what he did at all in verses 61-66.
quote:
And since the last use of flesh was in John 6:56 "For my flesh is food indeed , and my body is drink indeed. So, the reference of flesh in John 6:63 would have to reference John 6:56 right?
Again, this would make sense if we think that Jesus was contradicting himself. But since Christ would not have given us his flesh if it were not nourishing, we can hardly say that his body is of no avail, with the blood which washes us from sin, being Life itself. As Leviticus teaches us: "the life of a living body is in the blood." (Lev 17:11).
quote:
Therefore; the flesh profits nothing. And if you look at the opening line of 6:63, It is the Spirit who gives life
Yes, and the Spirit came to us through the offering of Christ's Body once for all. Cf. Jn 6:51. To hold that the blood of God the Son is of no avail will lead us into the ancient position called gnosticism or manichaeanism, and there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ's Body on the Altar of the Cross, since this offering would be as unavailing as the body iself.
May we all gently return to the original Christian faith.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/29/2009 2:54:57 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 9:49:54 PM
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AskSeekKnock
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline
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I thought that it's the Spirit that gives us life? John 6:63
Maybe they were murmuring because they were thinking does Jesus want us to eat His body and drink His blood? So, Jesus said the flesh profits nothing. It is the Spirit that gives life. Eating flesh profits nothing.
Was Jesus contradicting Himself when He told Nicodemus that one had to be born again (John 3:3), and then said born of Spirit (John 3:5)?
Just a question, but why didn't John being at the crucifixion take some of Jesus's body and blood with him if it is the actual body and blood? Doesn't it also say that he who eats this bread will live forever? (John 6:58) By the literal interpretation of Jesus's body and blood that means people of the RCC will live forever right?
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 10:09:34 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 681
Joined: 6/23/2006
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KingJamesBond,
quote:
Instead of trying to win me over.....just try presenting the truth of Roman Catholic doctrine honsetly and let me decide on my own.
I have no intention of winning you over. You are responsible for your own choices in this life of yours, which is a gift of God.
quote:
If people would stop with the tries at sugar coating and cover-ups, people could make their own decisions based on reliable doctrine.
I have no idea what you are accusing Catholics of "sugar coating." The truth is, the Church was one when the anathemas of Councils were issued. You are not old enough, I presume, to fall under their dictates. You are a product of your generation, training, familial background, and your own disposition. Your faith is God's alone to judge...just as the Catholic Church affirms. Why you and kelman keep trying to align yourself with those of your ilk centuries dead is a mystery to me. If you want to play the martyr of Protestantism, why not believe in the same way they did?
quote:
The truth of the matter is that there is so many Roman Catholic doctrines that make it well known that people with faith in Jesus Christ are not saved and have no life in them unless they partake in or desire the RCC sacraments.
And you, my friend, are in no position to judge the "faith" of anyone. Only God is able to judge the heart. It's Scriptural.
The rest of your post is just more of the same, so I'll refrain from responding....again.
Peace,
gatolover
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 10:15:22 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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AskSeekKnock,
quote:
That's why the verse in 2 Timothy is relevant because it says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
And, the symbolism you say isn't there, is seen in the verses from John. The flesh profits nothing, it is the words that Jesus spoke that are spirit, and they are life.
quote:
Yes, I agree the flesh is weak, but I thought that when Jesus spoke of "flesh" in John 6:63 we had to go back to the previous use of the word that was mentioned last to be in context, right? Seems like I have read that somewhere before. And sense the last use of flesh was in John 6:56 "For my flesh is food indeed , and my body is drink indeed. So, the reference of flesh in John 6:63 would have to reference John 6:56 right? Therefore; the flesh profits nothing. And if you look at the opening line of 6:63, It is the Spirit who gives life;
quote:
I thought that it's the Spirit that gives us life? John 6:63
Maybe they were murmuring because they were thinking does Jesus want us to eat His body and drink His blood? So, Jesus said the flesh profits nothing. It is the Spirit that gives life. Eating flesh profits nothing.
Very enjoyable to read.
I could not find a smiley that was kicking back, relaxing, and enjoying a good read like I did with your posts.
I found this one though;
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 10:15:50 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
I thought that it's the Spirit that gives us life? John 6:63
Yes. Why do you ask?
quote:
Was Jesus contradicting Himself when He told Nicodemus that one had to be born again (John 3:3), and then said born of Spirit (John 3:5)?
Not at all. Why do you ask?
quote:
Just a question, but why didn't John being at the crucifixion take some of Jesus's body and blood with him if it is the actual body and blood?
He did. But he did not eat from Christ's mortal body. Cf. Mt 26:26, 1 Cor 15:44.
As Scripture says,
"I AM the Resurrection and the Life."
quote:
Doesn't it also say that he who eats this bread will live forever? (John 6:58) By the literal interpretation of Jesus's body and blood that means people of the RCC will live forever right?
Yes. But one must do so worthily, or they eat and drink judgment on themselves. Cf. 1 Cor 11:23-29.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/29/2009 10:25:21 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 10:18:30 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 681
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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ManimalX,
I wonder if you missed my response in #5259?
I hope to hear your thoughts soon...like in a real discussion.
Thanks.
Peace,
gatolover
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/29/2009 11:06:05 PM
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AskSeekKnock
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
AskSeekKnock,
quote:
That's why the verse in 2 Timothy is relevant because it says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
And, the symbolism you say isn't there, is seen in the verses from John. The flesh profits nothing, it is the words that Jesus spoke that are spirit, and they are life.
quote:
Yes, I agree the flesh is weak, but I thought that when Jesus spoke of "flesh" in John 6:63 we had to go back to the previous use of the word that was mentioned last to be in context, right? Seems like I have read that somewhere before. And sense the last use of flesh was in John 6:56 "For my flesh is food indeed , and my body is drink indeed. So, the reference of flesh in John 6:63 would have to reference John 6:56 right? Therefore; the flesh profits nothing. And if you look at the opening line of 6:63, It is the Spirit who gives life;
quote:
I thought that it's the Spirit that gives us life? John 6:63
Maybe they were murmuring because they were thinking does Jesus want us to eat His body and drink His blood? So, Jesus said the flesh profits nothing. It is the Spirit that gives life. Eating flesh profits nothing.
Very enjoyable to read.
I could not find a smiley that was kicking back, relaxing, and enjoying a good read like I did with your posts.
I found this one though;
KJB
Thanks KJB
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 8:02:41 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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AskSeekKnock,
quote:
Thanks KJB
Well.....you do make good points!
The Spirit does not need wine or bread to mutate and transform into Jesus to give life.
A person can have life.....and fully, without the Roman Catholic sacrament.
John 6;
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
and;
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
and;
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 8:58:37 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
KJB
Since God has already refuted this argument, I wanted to address a different one.
KJB says that the Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. But KJB says that he knows for sure that the Catholic teaching is false, since he can tell by the appearancce of what is on the altar, that the Bread is only ordinary Bread and not Jesus.
Does the Bible look like Jesus?
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/31/2009 9:55:50 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 12:58:45 PM
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AskSeekKnock
Posts: 35
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline
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When was communion instituted?
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 4:19:07 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
ManimalX,
I wonder if you missed my response in #5259?
I hope to hear your thoughts soon...like in a real discussion.
Thanks.
Peace,
gatolover
With all due respect, I didn't respond because Hebrews 8:1-6 does not refute anything I wrote in post #5230: http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4597531
In fact, by bringing it up you actually reinforced my point.
I asked patricius79 about his unbiblical claim that Jesus has to "offer Himself" on a repeated basis. I provided plain Scripture that shows that Jesus made ONE sacrifice for ALL TIME.
Making ONE sacrifice for ALL TIME and making a NEW sacrifice EVERY DAY are mutually exclusive positions.
In other words, Roman doctrine that claims Jesus is being re-sacrificed every day is completely contrary to plain Scripture that teaches Jesus as making an all sufficient one-time sacrifice after which none other is required. In fact, that is exactly the point in the passage from Hebrews you wanted me to respond to: the old system of repeated sacrifices is over. The new system of an all sufficient one-time sacrifice has come. The passage of Hebrews 8 to which you wanted me to respond concludes thus:
"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. - Hebrews 8:13"
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 4:21:36 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2719
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
KJB
Since God has already refuted this argument, I wanted to address a different one.
KJB says that the Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. But KJB says that he knows for sure that the Catholic teaching is false, since he can tell by the appearancce of what is no the altar, that the Bread is only ordinary Bread and not Jesus.
Does the Bible look like Jesus?
No one has ever claimed that some book made of pages made from a tree is literally flesh.
If you can understand the metaphor of Yeshua being "The Word" then why can you not understand the metaphor of Him being "The Bread?"
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rawr.ben
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 4:34:29 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
KJB
Since God has already refuted this argument, I wanted to address a different one.
KJB says that the Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. But KJB says that he knows for sure that the Catholic teaching is false, since he can tell by the appearancce of what is no the altar, that the Bread is only ordinary Bread and not Jesus.
Does the Bible look like Jesus?
No one has ever claimed that some book made of pages made from a tree is literally flesh.
If you can understand the metaphor of Yeshua being "The Word" then why can you not understand the metaphor of Him being "The Bread?"
A great question and one repeatedly left unanswered.
Is Jesus a gate? He said He was. Is He made out of wood or iron? Does He need to have His hinges oiled?
Is Jesus a Lamb? He said He was. Does He have black wool or white? How often does He need to be sheared?
Is Jesus a vine? He said He was. What kind of fertilizer does He prefer? How often do we need to water Him?
Why is it that these statements are understood symbolically as they were intended, but when Jesus said His body was bread, we have to take it literally?
Jesus is present through the Holy Spirit in all believers at all times. Jesus is physically in "heaven" right now, as He has been since His ascension. He doesn't sneak in the back door of the church building disguised as wheat bread and grape wine. When He physically returns to Earth, we will ALL know about it.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/30/2009 9:41:11 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rawr.ben,
quote:
No one has ever claimed that some book made of pages made from a tree is literally flesh.
If you can understand the metaphor of Yeshua being "The Word" then why can you not understand the metaphor of Him being "The Bread?"
Exactly! Jesus claims He is the Word........do they suppose their priests are going to change Jesus into Words now?
ManimalX,
quote:
A great question and one repeatedly left unanswered.
Is Jesus a gate? He said He was. Is He made out of wood or iron? Does He need to have His hinges oiled?
Is Jesus a Lamb? He said He was. Does He have black wool or white? How often does He need to be sheared?
Is Jesus a vine? He said He was. What kind of fertilizer does He prefer? How often do we need to water Him?
Why is it that these statements are understood symbolically as they were intended, but when Jesus said His body was bread, we have to take it literally?
The reality of the Roman Catholic stance if it is held consistant is that their priests must be able to change Jesus into all of those things!
quote:
Jesus is present through the Holy Spirit in all believers at all times. Jesus is physically in "heaven" right now, as He has been since His ascension. He doesn't sneak in the back door of the church building disguised as wheat bread and grape wine. When He physically returns to Earth, we will ALL know about it.
Amen.
KJB
_____________________________
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Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/31/2009 9:53:44 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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ASKSEEKNOT WROTE:
quote:
When was communion instituted?
At the Last Supper.
MANIMALX WROTE:
quote:
I asked patricius79 about his unbiblical claim that Jesus has to "offer Himself" on a repeated basis. I provided plain Scripture that shows that Jesus made ONE sacrifice for ALL TIME.
Amen brother! He is a priest forever, this his sacrifice covers all time, which is why we offer him day by day(cf. Rom 12:1), since this one offering covered "forever".
ALL GLORY BE TO JESUS CHRIST, OUR PASCH!
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/31/2009 10:03:18 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/31/2009 10:17:11 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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Fact: Nobody on this board has shown one document that says that Catholics believe that Christ is killed again at each Mass, or that he dies again at each Mass.
MANIMAL WROTE:
quote:
From Old Testament to New, the written word always holds precedent over oral teaching and tradition. Scripture itself is chock full of this truth.
If this is really from Scripture alone, then why don’t you cite even one verse?
GATOLOVER WROTE:
quote:
I have no idea what you are accusing Catholics of "sugar coating." The truth is, the Church was one when the anathemas of Councils were issued.
KJB and others refuse to judge St. Paul (cf. Gal 1:8etc) by the same standard by which they judge the rest of the Catholic Church, with the Papacy.
KJB WROTE:
quote:
Roman Catholic doctrines that make it well known that people with faith in Jesus Christ are not saved and have no life in them unless they partake in or desire the RCC sacraments.
That is not my understanding of the Catholic faith. However, it is true that anyone who freely rejects the Eucharist—meaning historic Christianity--and does so to the end, well…you know.
ASKSEEK WROTE:
quote:
That's why the verse in 2 Timothy is relevant because it says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I know KJB liked this one, even though it doesn’t teach his modern idea of Sola Scriptura. I love this passage, because it shows Catholic teaching, as does Acts 17:11.
KJB WROTE:
quote:
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Amen!
MANIMAL WROTE:
quote:
In other words, Roman doctrine that claims Jesus is being re-sacrificed every day is completely contrary to plain Scripture that teaches Jesus as making an all sufficient one-time sacrifice after which none other is required.
If Catholics believed that Christ had to die again, you would be right, and historic Christianity would be false. Cf. Rom 12:1.
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