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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 8:16:01 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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wkirscher,
quote:
I suggested a possible solution to this some time ago … ignore the person who perpetually posts the nonsense we’ve responded to countless times.
There happen to be a few of us on this thread that agree with each other.
Lets see.....how did that text go on being made alive?
Was it that I must eat RCC wafers and drink RCC wine?
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever eats Roman Catholic wafers and drinks papal wine shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through the pope and his rules and regulations.
18Whoever eats Roman Catholic wafers and drinks their wine while believing it is actually Jesus Christ is not condemned, but whoever does not eat these special wafers and drink this special wine stands condemned already because he has not believed in papal laws and hitched up with the Roman Catholic church.
Sheeesh....that must of been re-written. Here is how it really goes;
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
I guess that text might take a back seat when held to Holy Roman Catholic oral hand me downs.
Let me see how I was made alive.
Was it by eating Roman Catholic wafers and drinking their special wine?
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
There is a great way to test this stuff out for what it really is.
I wonder what would happen if the RCC let each kid in mass drink a whole bottle of this converted material.
If they started out with real wine I can assure you they would be real drunk.......I guess you could always have faith that they were real sober.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 9:21:47 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
You are right.........no is the real Roman Catholic answer! That is why they had so many anathemas and an anathema actually meant something.
KJB,
Didn't we talk about this at great length before?
Lets do it again, you or anyone who is interested, go to the correct thread in the salvation area and I'll talk about the Churches view of salvation as it is written in the CCC.
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 10:56:05 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
There is a great way to test this stuff out for what it really is.
I wonder what would happen if the RCC let each kid in mass drink a whole bottle of this converted material.
Some of us know the Scriptures about rudely testing God, rather than trusting Him.
On the last day, many will say "Lord, Lord." But if any won't accept the whole, historic Christian faith, they will damn themselves.
Do we want to follow Jesus, or are we lukewarm? Do we want to open our hearts fully, or do we want to follow the un-Biblical, conflicted traditions of the "reformers"?
It is interesting to note that in John 6:66, many didn't accept Christ's words--though emphasized over and over. And a few words after this, Jesus spoke of Judas's betrayal. In between, the first Pope answered for the Twelve and preserved the unity of the Christian faith.
"Protestant attacks on the Catholic Church often focus on the Eucharist. This demonstrates that opponents of the Church—mainly Evangelicals and Fundamentalists—recognize one of Catholicism’s core doctrines. What’s more, the attacks show that Fundamentalists are not always literalists. This is seen in their interpretation of the key biblical passage, chapter six of John’s Gospel, in which Christ speaks about the sacrament that will be instituted at the Last Supper. This tract examines the last half of that chapter."
For more of this article ["Christ in the Eucharist" Catholic Answers. San Diego 2004:]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
___________________________________________________________
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again"
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to Smyrnaeans,7,1(c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/27/2009 11:17:51 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 11:22:52 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever eats Roman Catholic wafers and drinks papal wine shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through the pope and his rules and regulations.
18Whoever eats Roman Catholic wafers and drinks their wine while believing it is actually Jesus Christ is not condemned, but whoever does not eat these special wafers and drink this special wine stands condemned already because he has not believed in papal laws and hitched up with the Roman Catholic church.
Sheeesh....that must of been re-written. Here is how it really goes;
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
You forgot the RC version of Romans 10:11-13:
"11 For the Scripture says, Everyone who believes in him (AND also gets baptized with three magical head sprinkles, AND gets rubbed with magical Chrism oil by a priest casting a special incantation, AND eats mystical crackers and wine while pretending they are really flesh and blood after a priest casts a magical incantation, AND doesn't die before confessing a sin to a magic priest, AND accepts the Papacy, AND doesn't break any other obscure rules) will not be put to shame.
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him (AND also gets baptized with three magical head sprinkles, AND gets rubbed with magical Chrism oil by a priest casting a special incantation, AND eats mystical crackers and wine while pretending they are really flesh and blood after a priest casts a magical incantation, AND doesn't die before confessing a sin to a magic priest, AND accepts the Papacy, AND doesn't break any other obscure rules).
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (AND also gets baptized with three magical head sprinkles, AND gets rubbed with magical Chrism oil by a priest casting a magical incantation, AND eats mystical crackers and wine while pretending they are really flesh and blood after a priest casts a magical incantation, AND doesn't die before confessing a sin to a magic priest, AND accepts the Papacy, AND doesn't break any other obscure rules) will be saved."
The problem is that they don't understand that we aren't writing this to be mean, we are writing it to demonstrate how much violence Roman Catholicism has done to God's Word through centuries of piling on bureaucratic extra-biblical and un-biblical doctrine and tradition to a very simple Gospel message!
It isn't, "saved by grace through faith" PLUS this work and that work! Justification by works belongs to cults, idolaters, and pagans! It is one huge thing that separates Christianity from EVERY OTHER RELIGION in the world: we don't save ourselves by rituals and works, rather God saved us by doing the work Himself and then giving us the wages for that work as an undeserved gift!
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 2:31:04 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The problem is that they don't understand that we aren't writing this to be mean,
Let me ask you this then what virtue should I find of yours in the tone/meaning of the words in purple in your above post.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 4:20:25 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2719
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The problem is that they don't understand that we aren't writing this to be mean,
Let me ask you this then what virtue should I find of yours in the tone/meaning of the words in purple in your above post.
Um. Manimal's tone is no different than a lot of Catholics I have encountered who actually do say that stuff . . some of them posting in this thread. It may not all be put into one string of thought like Manimal did, but look around and you'll see Catholics proclaiming that if you don't believe in Mary's Virginity, Mary's Sinlessness, Transubstantiation, etc, then you are not saved; that salvation only comes through the acceptance of the RCC doctrine.
At least Manimal's tone was to make a point; the tone of those Catholic posters is condemnation.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 6:20:50 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The problem is that they don't understand that we aren't writing this to be mean,
Let me ask you this then what virtue should I find of yours in the tone/meaning of the words in purple in your above post.
My words in purple reflect the words that the Roman Catholic Church adds to the already complete Word of God.
I used words like "magical", because that is the only explanation for the power that is accredited to "special words" that have to be spoken by priests to make things happen. "Special words" and verbal formulas that cause some sort of "mysterious" effect are a completely unbiblical fabrication, a perversion of normal prayer.
"The essential rite of Confirmation is the anointing with Sacred Chrism (oil mixed with balsam and consecrated by the bishop), which is done by the laying on of the hand of the minister who pronounces the sacramental words proper to the rite." SOURCE: http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#The%20sacraments%20of%20Christian%20initiation
In essence, a magical spell cast by a priest, just like in communion to supposedly conjure and command Jesus, as if that were possible.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 6:49:26 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Amen to that!
quote:
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Right. So when Paul athathematized people who changed the Gospel in Gal 1:8, he wasn’t condemning anyone, nor declaring that any particular people had no chance of repentance He was stating that one must accept the whole Gospel as it was given, without corruptions or changes.
quote:
You forgot the RC version of Romans 10:11-13: "11 For the Scripture says, Everyone who believes in him (AND also gets baptized with three magical head sprinkles, AND gets rubbed with magical Chrism oil by a priest casting a special incantation, AND eats mystical crackers and wine while pretending they are really flesh and blood after a priest casts a magical incantation, AND doesn't die before confessing a sin to a magic priest, AND accepts the Papacy, AND doesn't break any other obscure rules) will not be put to shame.
I really don’t see an argument which would make me abandon Christ’s teachings about Baptism (1 Pt 3:20-22), Confirmation (Heb 6:2) or the Mass (cf. Jn 6:51-58), or Confession (cf. Jn 20:23)
I think it’s like a family. There is one rule: “love”, or “faith, hope, and love”. It’s all about Jesus. But being a part of a family means following the head of the family’s rules, and his wife’s rules. These are not rules separate from “faith, hope, and love”. Rather, they are the living expressions of faith, hope, and love.
For example, “don’t have sex before marriage”, may sound like a silly rule or legalism to a teen-ager, but it is implied by “believe in Jesus”.
Likewise, a little boy—or even a man—may feel sick of taking a bath. But in fact water is one of the Lord’s greatest gifts, and he has made our health of body dependent upon it, even though we are totally free in Christ.
Likewise, "be at the family's one table on time" is not an arbitrary rule, but a request for one's presence, and faith in what the father has to say to his children.
quote:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him (AND also gets baptized with three magical head sprinkles, AND gets rubbed with magical Chrism oil by a priest casting a special incantation, AND eats mystical crackers and wine while pretending they are really flesh and blood after a priest casts a magical incantation, AND doesn't die before confessing a sin to a magic priest, AND accepts the Papacy, AND doesn't break any other obscure rules).
Some of this is false, by the way. First of all, sprinking (cf. Ez 36:25) is not a required form for baptism. Also, Confirmation isn’t always necessary for salvation. Also, “magic” can be applied to the action of the Holy Spirit, but in this context such a word seems rude and irreverent toward Christ… Yeah, you are over the line here. The Eucharist is Jesus, not a cracker. He allows the appearance of a wafer to remain, in order to let us believe in His Word, and to show his power and humility.
Also, it is not always necessary to confess to a priest, though it is normally necessary if one has deliberately violated a commandment.
The Church is very clear that God works through his sacraments, but is not bound by his sacraments. She really is everything good about being a hippie, along with everything good about being careful.
Yes, all must accept the Papacy, since this is Christ’s authority. “Obscure rules” is vague. Catholic living is difficult, but also easy, and very simple. It is complex in a sense, but that’s because life is very interesting, and agonizing.
quote:
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (AND also gets baptized with three magical head sprinkles, AND gets rubbed with magical Chrism oil by a priest casting a magical incantation, AND eats mystical crackers and wine while pretending they are really flesh and blood after a priest casts a magical incantation, AND doesn't die before confessing a sin to a magic priest, AND accepts the Papacy, AND doesn't break any other obscure rules) will be saved."
The problem is that they don't understand that we aren't writing this to be mean, we are writing it to demonstrate how much violence Roman Catholicism has done to God's Word through centuries of piling on bureaucratic extra-biblical and un-biblical doctrine and tradition to a very simple Gospel message!
Well, the Church is Christ’s Body. A body is very simple, since it has one soul and one meaning: to love. But it is also very complex, as anyone who has done a rudimentary study of biology knows. Likewise, family rules are very simple and also complex. The Catholic Church is very clear in her Catechism that we will be judged on one thing: love (for Jesus).
quote:
It isn't, "saved by grace through faith" PLUS this work and that work!
Faith involves work.
quote:
Justification by works belongs to cults, idolaters, and pagans! It is one huge thing that separates Christianity from EVERY OTHER RELIGION in the world: we don't save ourselves by rituals and works, rather God saved us by doing the work Himself and then giving us the wages for that work as an undeserved gift!
Protestants teach that we are saved by hearing the Gospel preached to us, and accepting it. This is the same thing Catholics believe. For some reason, many protestants think that Catholics believe they are saved by other works than preaching and accepting the Gospel. But it is not so.
quote:
some of them posting in this thread. It may not all be put into one string of thought like Manimal did, but look around and you'll see Catholics proclaiming that if you don't believe in Mary's Virginity, Mary's Sinlessness, Transubstantiation, etc, then you are not saved; that salvation only comes through the acceptance of the RCC doctrine.
Not really. We have pointed out how some people can be saved even without explicit knowledge of Christ, or without explicit submission to the Papacy. For this we are mocked and accused of double-talk. But in reality, we are just saying that we are not God, but that all must truly accept the whole Gospel with their heart, even if their head knowledge is pretty vague.
I can’t vouch for my tone all of the time. I am a physically ill person and I’ve always been a poor communicator in many ways, especially when my Lord’s teachings are being attacked. But I am very optimistic about the salvation of those on this board, and about the vast majority of the human race. Is it necessary to accept all Christian teachings? Is the Gospel all or nothing? Yes, thank God. I find this simplicity refreshing!
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/27/2009 7:12:38 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 8:01:15 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 681
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Hi ManimalX,
I know for a fact I've addressed this before at least once with somebody, but what the heck...one more time.
quote:
Why in the world would Jesus "offer Himself" again every day?!?!
Because He is our Heavenly High Priest. I noticed you quoted passages from Hebrews 7 and 9, but what do you make of Hebrews 8:1-6?
The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; THUS THE NECESSITY FOR THIS ONE ALSO TO HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER. If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are those who offer gifts according to the law. They worship in a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary, as Moses was warned when he was about to erect the tabernacle. For he says, "See that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises.
If Christ is our High Priest and has a "ministry" in Heaven, it is necessary that He have something to "offer" according to Scripture. Catholic Christians believe He eternally offers His once-for-all Perfect Sacrifice as our Heavenly High Priest, and by His Grace and Command, us lowly slobs are called to participate in the Heavenly Banquet of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world and standing as if slain at then end of it.
quote:
P.S. In reading the Scriptures to formulate this post, it occurred to me that Rome probably hates the book of Hebrews, as that letter does a great deal of violence against some very coveted Roman doctrine.
On the contrary, Hebrews is filled with insight into the Catholic Faith. It speaks of Christ's Eternal High Priesthood; it refers to the "basic teaching" of the Faith; i.e., repentance, faith, baptism, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment, all of which are subjects continually argued about here; it refers to the Communion of Saints as the great cloud of witnesses who surround us. No friend, Hebrews is a very "Catholic" book when read in context and in its entirety. IMHO, it's not a big surprise to me that Luther wanted it removed from the Canon of Scripture, along with the Book of James and others.
Anway, for what it's worth.
Christ's Peace,
gatolover
Doghouse...I agree 100%. Sometimes it feels like I'm in the core of a nuclear power plant about to blow sky high...too many breeder reactors!
< Message edited by gatolover -- 10/27/2009 10:58:54 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 8:45:11 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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ManimalX,
quote:
The problem is that they don't understand that we aren't writing this to be mean, we are writing it to demonstrate how much violence Roman Catholicism has done to God's Word through centuries of piling on bureaucratic extra-biblical and un-biblical doctrine and tradition to a very simple Gospel message!
Amen!
Why oh why cant they just dialogue on the doctrine and stop taking all this stuff so personal?
I dont know how many times I have told them that my wife was Roman Catholic, and I married her!
My mother has alzheimers and the person that we have trusted to come over to watch over my mother every day while we go to work is Roman Catholic!
Our niece in the Philippines is Iglesia ni Cristo and if you study their doctrine it is a load of cultish rubbish and I have told her so. I tell her flat out. I write to her flat out. But, we still help her kids go to school, we bought them a piece of land to build and live on, we help them with food, we helped them to purchase a vehicle, we help them with many things because even though their doctrine is something I hate with a passion....I dont hate them with any passion at all!
You are right....it is not mean. Some of the things we say should actually show them the absurdities of their beliefs.
People need to concentrate on the doctrines and how absurd they are or are not without all of this emotional hog-wash that keeps coming out as if I am going to start loving their doctrines because they start whining and crying and feel bad that we hate their doctrine.
I hate Iglesia ni Cristo doctrine if it is pertaining to the doctrines of the cult in the Philippines. I hate it. It stinks. I hate it I hate it I hate it. It is lousy. It is unBiblical. It is absurd. But......I dont hate my niece or her family! We actually help to take care of them. I am not going to cave in to their doctrines to be in unity if I am not in unity on their doctrines. It also does not mean I should hate my niece and her family just because I hate the doctrines they love.
quote:
It isn't, "saved by grace through faith" PLUS this work and that work! Justification by works belongs to cults, idolaters, and pagans! It is one huge thing that separates Christianity from EVERY OTHER RELIGION in the world: we don't save ourselves by rituals and works, rather God saved us by doing the work Himself and then giving us the wages for that work as an undeserved gift!
You are exactly right. The simple message of the gospel is just too simple for all the people that think they must add because Jesus is not good enough.
The gospel is the power of God to salvation.
Bread and wine handled by fancy priests are not with any power to do anything.
The only thing they really have is a belief in a ritual.
Having a belief that the world is flat just does not make the world flat just like believing magic priests changing wine into blood does not change wine into blood.
quote:
My words in purple reflect the words that the Roman Catholic Church adds to the already complete Word of God.
Yup.......and I dont know why people would not have understood it that way.
quote:
I used words like "magical", because that is the only explanation for the power that is accredited to "special words" that have to be spoken by priests to make things happen. "Special words" and verbal formulas that cause some sort of "mysterious" effect are a completely unbiblical fabrication, a perversion of normal prayer.
You are correct. In reality it is like a big hocus pocus show with priests as the sacred magicians. Can the lay people perform this "act" in the Roman Catholic mass? Nope.
quote:
"The essential rite of Confirmation is the anointing with Sacred Chrism (oil mixed with balsam and consecrated by the bishop), which is done by the laying on of the hand of the minister who pronounces the sacramental words proper to the rite." SOURCE:
quote:
In essence, a magical spell cast by a priest, just like in communion to supposedly conjure and command Jesus, as if that were possible.
You got it!
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 8:59:27 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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patricius79,
You posted something on this thread that really deserves an answer in truth;
quote:
I think what some people don't understant is that Christianity is not an individualism or an ideology.
We either follow Christ or we don't.
We either believe that God can do anything, or we don't.
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you."
I am concentrating on the text you provided as if you wanted to use it to prove your point of obtaining life by way of the Roman Catholic Eucharist. It is a simple concept and for you to remain consistant with your doctrine you would have to agree with the Council of Trent and claim that protestants are anathema.
The simple Roman Catholic concept was that eternal life came from Jesus Christ and to obtain this life a person would have to eat Him.
Unless you eat and drink...........you have no life within you.
To remain consistant with Roman Catholic doctrine a person would have to eat and drink or at least have the desire to eat and drink the Roman Catholic sacrament to have eternal life.
These are the kinds of things the RCC has taught for a long time.
In essence.....according to the RCC even though I have faith in Jesus Christ......I have no life within me and am as dead as can be.
At least let us be honest and consistant.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 9:26:47 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
To remain consistant with Roman Catholic doctrine a person would have to eat and drink or at least have the desire to eat and drink the Roman Catholic sacrament to have eternal life.
These are the kinds of things the RCC has taught for a long time.
In essence.....according to the RCC even though I have faith in Jesus Christ......I have no life within me and am as dead as can be.
I won't say anything about what your desire or openness to Christ is or the like. I leave this to God, who knows you personally.
Must a person be open to eating and actually eat the flesh of Jesus Christ to have Life? Yes. This is stated explicitly in Jn 6:51-58. There are ways that our Lord can work outside of his ordinary ways--the Sacraments--but there is no way around the meaning of Jn 6:51-58.
Moreover, ridiculing the Christian teaching about the Mass is a very serious matter, though I am assuming freedom of the will.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/27/2009 9:33:33 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 9:40:48 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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patricius79,
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you."
quote:
I won't say anything about what your desire or openness to Christ is or the like. I leave this to God, who knows you personally.
Must a person be open to eating and actually eat the flesh of Jesus Christ to have Life? Yes. This is stated explicitly in Jn 6:51-58. There are ways that our Lord can work outside of his ordinary ways--the Sacraments--but there is no way around the meaning of Jn 6:51-58.
Moreover, ridiculing the Christian teaching about the Mass is a very serious matter, though I am assuming freedom of the will.
Just as I thought...........total inconsistancy.
You keep harping on whether other people follow the Lord with notes like these;
I think what some people don't understant is that Christianity is not an individualism or an ideology.
We either follow Christ or we don't.
We either believe that God can do anything, or we don't.
We have Jesus saying this;
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you."
And you respond with;
Must a person be open to eating and actually eat the flesh of Jesus Christ to have Life? Yes. This is stated explicitly in Jn 6:51-58. There are ways that our Lord can work outside of his ordinary ways--the Sacraments--but there is no way around the meaning of Jn 6:51-58.
That text did not say a person must be open..........that is your perverted twist.
The text said;
........unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood.......
Where did the text say there is another way?
I think Jesus would have noted.....
......unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood or are at least open to doing so, you have no life within you, unless you have life in you from some other way.
Roman Catholic contradictions and double talk, now showing in a theater near you.
LOL
KJB
_____________________________
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 10:11:19 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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The text said;
quote:
........unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood.......
Where did the text say there is another way?
I think Jesus would have noted.....
......unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood or are at least open to doing so, you have no life within you, unless you have life in you from some other way.
Roman Catholic contradictions and double talk, now showing in a theater near you.
Isn't it a violation of the commandment to accuse people of such things without evidence?
I was very clear that a person must actually eat Jesus Christ to have life within them, just as Scripture says. Jn 6:51-58, 1 Cor 10:16. I did not say that a desire alone was sufficient. I would encourage you to read the other person's post before responding.
Above all, I would encourage you to make a logical argument, since such practice helps men to think clearly.
___________________________________________________________
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).
For more:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/27/2009 10:24:28 PM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 10:21:04 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 681
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Hey RJKGB,
quote:
Why oh why cant they just dialogue on the doctrine and stop taking all this stuff so personal?
Actually, some of us Catholic Christians have been doing so for years....and years...and years....though you would never be able to tell by the current "rebuttals."
*sigh*
I miss the old days when people engaged in these "discussions" civilly and with a view to grow in understanding.
Lately, it's more like a free-for-all cage match. Sad and unChrist-like, IMHO.
Have a good night. I hope the KGB doesn't come knocking at your door. If they do, be sure to slap them first. 
gatolover
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 11:36:56 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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patricius79,
quote:
Isn't it a violation of the commandment to accuse people of such things without evidence?
I was very clear that a person must actually eat Jesus Christ to have life within them, just as Scripture says. Jn 6:51-58, 1 Cor 10:16. I did not say that a desire alone was sufficient. I would encourage you to read the other person's post before responding.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct07.html
You sure have a hard time keeping up with basic Roman Catholic doctrines dont you?
Proper Roman Catholic doctrine claims that the sacraments are needed for salvation but that this does not apply in instances where a person might convert while in prison and is not able or capable of participating in the sacraments. In such a case the desire to partake is acceptable.
Dont worry..........they have a lot of junk to try and keep up with. 
The Roman Catholic church has already described and made as public knowledge what they deem as a sacrament.
The Eucharist exactly as they describe it is a sacrament.
Protestants do not practice this sacrament.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s1c1a2.htm
1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."134 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."135
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm#I
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/27/2009 11:51:29 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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gatolover,
Instead of trying to win me over.....just try presenting the truth of Roman Catholic doctrine honsetly and let me decide on my own. If people would stop with the tries at sugar coating and cover-ups, people could make their own decisions based on reliable doctrine.
The truth of the matter is that there is so many Roman Catholic doctrines that make it well known that people with faith in Jesus Christ are not saved and have no life in them unless they partake in or desire the RCC sacraments. That is Roman Catholic doctrine even though you just cant get patricius79 to spit it right out.
I do not agree with RCC doctrine on that!
Roman Catholics have a faulty understanding of when Jesus said;
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you."
If this "life within" comes only from literally eating and drinking His body parts......and His body is not here with us......and His body parts are only drummed up by Roman Catholic priests......according to Roman Catholic doctrines I have none of this life within me.
I have no desire for the RCC sacrament and I have not and do not partake in it.
I have faith in Jesus Christ though. If I have none of this life I am dead and unsaved....."anathema".
If I have new life within, it must have come from somewhere, someone, or something OTHER than that of the Roman Catholic Eucharistic sacrament. In that case the sacraments are not needed for salvation.
I want to understand the correct doctrines.....not junk that you all throw at me as you try to tickle my ears and sugar coat just for the sake of unity.
I dont want to be united on doctrines that I do not agree with just like you do not want to be united on doctrines that you do not agree with.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 2:11:51 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
ManimalX,
quote:
We all know the honest Roman Catholic answer is "no, you are headed to hell because you are outside of the REAL church", but 1) they are afraid to say it out loud and 2) if they did, it would probably violate TOS as "questioning someone's salvation".
You are right.........no is the real Roman Catholic answer! That is why they had so many anathemas and an anathema actually meant something. RC takes its condemnation to a new level in the following:
"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. xxv. 41), unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church;"(Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
And yet some posters want us to believe RC doesn't send anyone to hell!
quote:
If they answered that we did have life within us they would have to explain past the same Scripture they gave as to how we have this life. We can see from the above quote that a belief in "infallibility" must accompany salvation. But, otoh, the "infallible" church proclaims that practicing Muslims may be saved even though they believe that the Lord Jesus is simply a lesser prophet. These two declarations on issues of faith and moral cannot be reconciled. They clearly contradict each other.
There is only one possible conclusion - there is no "infalliblity" in the RC.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 3:38:05 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. xxv. 41), unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church;"(Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
And yet some posters want us to believe RC doesn't send anyone to hell!
quote:
If they answered that we did have life within us they would have to explain past the same Scripture they gave as to how we have this life. We can see from the above quote that a belief in "infallibility" must accompany salvation. But, otoh, the "infallible" church proclaims that practicing Muslims may be saved even though they believe that the Lord Jesus is simply a lesser prophet. These two declarations on issues of faith and moral cannot be reconciled. They clearly contradict each other.
There is only one possible conclusion - there is no "infalliblity" in the RC.
Yet another example of the ridiculous asinine doctrine of the RCC, and another example of why it is so great to be a "protester": If this kooky statement would have been made by some false teacher who was a "Protestant", it would be easy to marginalize and dismiss. Instead, it was made by a supposedly "infallible" Roman Pope in his pointy hat and has to be accepted by every future slave to the Roman bureaucracy, lest the "protester" be damned to hell.
I find it funny to the point of tears and then beyond to the point of tears of sorrow. When the church of Christ is faced with some ridiculous false teacher such as a Benny Hinn or a Kenneth Hagin, we as Protestants not enslaved by extra-biblical and unbiblical tradition and doctrine are free and duty-bound by Scripture to reject such a fool. However, when some Roman fool manages to manipulate his way into being a Pope, his ridiculous anti-biblical words have to be "ooh-ed" and "ahh-ed" at as if they were the very words of God, and then Roman Catholics for centuries after have to make excuses.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 7:02:35 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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Kelman wrote:
quote:
And yet some posters want us to believe RC doesn't send anyone to hell!
So now you admit that the Catholic Church has the authority to excommunicate. Interesting.
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock;
Yes, this is true.
Getting back to some other facts:
1) Jesus teaches that there is no salvation except through the one, historic Christian Church.
2) this Church has always believed in a literal interpretation of Jn 6:51-58.
P.S., Kelman[/],
I read that article about how the "early Church was Jewish and not Catholic." I don't see any evidence to that effect in the article. You will have to explain what you are holding up as evidence to this effect.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/28/2009 7:23:19 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 7:26:13 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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kelman,
quote:
RC takes its condemnation to a new level in the following:
"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. xxv. 41), unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church;"(Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
And yet some posters want us to believe RC doesn't send anyone to hell!
Yup......and dont they know that all those rejecting the RCC sacrament as it is described by the RCC are heretics?
That means that you and I are heretics according to the RCC! 
quote:
We can see from the above quote that a belief in "infallibility" must accompany salvation. But, otoh, the "infallible" church proclaims that practicing Muslims may be saved even though they believe that the Lord Jesus is simply a lesser prophet. These two declarations on issues of faith and moral cannot be reconciled. They clearly contradict each other.
There is only one possible conclusion - there is no "infalliblity" in the RC.
Yup. To admit they had error in doctrine is like you say.....well, their whole house of cards crumble.
"Heresy is a technical theological term. It is the denial of a dogma of the church. A dogma, in turn, is a doctrine that has been infallibly taught, usually by an ecumenical council or by a pope acting as earthly head of the church (I leave aside here the debatable concept of the ordinary universal magisterium, which applies to teachings that have never been formally defined but which are claimed to have been held and taught by the hierarchical magisterium over a long period of time.)"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n42_v34/ai_21255775/
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 7:27:58 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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KJB wrote:
quote:
Yup. To admit they had error in doctrine is like you say.....well, their whole house of cards crumble.
You are definitely correct that if a person could show that even one Christian dogma were false, then the whole Christian faith would fall, including our dogmatic certainty about the Biblical Canon.
To do this would require clear logic. I would encourage you and Kelman to put your argument into a syllogism, and then we can see if it stands up, or not.
You might want to use that syllogism I gave which proved that Sola Scriptura says there is a higher authority than the Word of God.
That was the one that nobody has disproven. One person tried to disprove it by saying that according to the Scriptures, the Bible alone is the Word of God. (But this person didn't give even one verse for this idea, thus showing how Sola Scriptura is a self-contradictory doctrine.)
1. Scripture says that the oral Gospel is the Word of God (Is 59:21, 1 Thes 1:8, 2:13.).
2.Sola Scriptura Christians say that “Scripture alone” is the highest authority.
3.Therefore, S.S. Christians say that "Scripture alone" is a higher authority than the Word of God.
It is interesting that the Gospel does not always have to be stated verbatim from Scripture. Often when we are sharing Christ with people, many of our phrases are not verbatim from Scripture. Yet this is the Word of God, inasmuch as we speak in harmony with the Body of Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Tim 3:15, Eph 1:22-23), which is filled with all the fulness of God. Cf. Eph 3:19.
Manimal wrote:
quote:
we as Protestants not enslaved by extra-biblical and unbiblical tradition and doctrine are free and duty-bound by Scripture to reject such a fool.
Manimal, why do you keep using Sola scriptura as a premise when I've already disproven it logically, and you haven't shown how any of my premises were false, nor that my conclusion doesn't follow?
______________________________
Fundamentalists insist that when Christ says, "This is my body," he is speaking figuratively. But this interpretation is precluded by Paul’s discussion of the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 11:23–29 and by the whole tenor of John 6, the chapter where the Eucharist is promised. The Greek word for "body" in John 6:54 is sarx, which means physical flesh, and the word for "eats" (trogon) translates as "gnawing" or "chewing." This is certainly not the language of metaphor.
For more of this article: ["The INstitution of the Mass." Catholics ANswers San Diego 2004.]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/28/2009 8:01:18 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 7:56:41 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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patricius79,
quote:
You are definitely correct that if a person could show that even one Catholic dogma were false, then the whole Christian faith would fall.
To do this would require clear logic. I would encourage you and Kelman to put your argument into a syllogism, and then we can see if it stands up, or not.
You might want to use that syllogism I gave which proved that Sola Scriptura says there is a higher authority than the Word of God.
That was the one that nobody has disproven.
It is nothing but a diversion.
Roman Catholic dogma shows that anyone flat out rejecting the Roman Catholic sacrament relating to the Eucharist is a heretic. I flat out reject it! Roman Catholic dogma shows that heretics are going to hell unless they unite with the RCC and that would mean they would accept the sacraments (at least in desire).
That is why when the Council of Trent used the term "ANATHEMA" in regard to their doctrines on the Eucharist and since the Council was put together to battle the claims of protestors.....it applied to people like myself and kelman that have faith in Jesus Christ but NO faith at all in the RCC ritual.
The "ANATHEMA" that RCC councils declared had REAL meaning and were not just some trivial words or warnings to people. They were a declaration of an individuals condition if that individual rejected the dogmas that the council had set forth.
That is why you cannot give a solid and straight answer on Roman Catholic doctrines when I give you the same Scripture text that you gave me: "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you"
You are the one that becomes inconsistant with the Words of Jesus Christ AND Roman Catholic dogma when you imply that I could have gotten this life in some other way: "There are ways that our Lord can work outside of his ordinary ways--the Sacraments"
Contradictions.
There is no other way a person can have this new life within them unless they are born again and this has to do with what Jesus was speaking about earlier in the same area;
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."
I do not hunger for your wine or your bread. I have already come to Jesus Christ. I was enabled to do so.
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life.
And I believe!
Your councils can call people that have faith in Jesus Christ "heretics" and "anathema" and stomp their feet all they want.
They might even have the power to hog tie human beings and make doctrines that call on civil authorities to force people to fess up and recant......but those with faith in Jesus Christ I will consider as secure as secure can be.
They dont need to watch or join the greatest show on earth where RCC priests invoke the Holy Spirit to change bread into flesh and wine into blood so they can all feast.
No one needs it because eternal life is found outside of the Roman Catholic Eucharistic sacrament.
It is found in Jesus Christ...........not your "wonder" bread.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 8:01:28 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
Roman Catholic dogma shows that anyone flat out rejecting the Roman Catholic sacrament relating to the Eucharist is a heretic. I flat out reject it! Roman Catholic dogma shows that heretics are going to hell unless they unite with the RCC and that would mean they would accept the sacraments (at least in desire).
Yes, and I would think that we believe that anyone "flat out rejecting"--i.e. freely rejecting--Jesus Christ (the Eucharist) would be an apostate. Whether that fits you or not, I don't know. As you know, history shows that the Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus Christ.
With all of your zeal against the Catholic Church, why haven't you shown how my syllogisms against Sola Scriptura are false, based on evidence? Can you unite your zeal with logic?
1.Sola Scriptura Christians say that the Bible alone is the source or standard of Christian doctrine.
2.But the Bible does not teach that it alone is the source or standard of Christian doctrine.
3.Therefore, Sola Scriptura Christians teach a self-contradictory doctrine.
Cf. Luke 10:16. Cf. 2 Tim 2:2, 2 Thes 2:15.
If one changes the definition of Sola Scriptura to the idea that “Scripture alone is the highest authority”:
1.For a doctrine to be sure, it must be confirmed by the highest doctrinal authority.
2.S.S. proponents say that Scripture alone is the highest doctrinal authority.
3.But the Scriptures do not teach that they alone are the highest authority.
4.Therefore, those with the S.S. doctrine are not sure of this doctrine.
"In John 6:63 "flesh profits nothing" refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me." So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true. "
For more of this article--"Christ in the Eucharist." Catholic Answers. San Diego, 2004]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
__________________
"You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made,it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ....When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body."
Athanasius,Sermon to the Newly Baptized,PG 26,1325(ante A.D. 373),in ECD,442
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/28/2009 8:19:38 AM >
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 10/28/2009 8:43:20 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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patricius79,
quote:
Yes, and I would think that we believe that anyone "flat out rejecting"--i.e. freely rejecting--Jesus Christ (the Eucharist) would be an apostate. Whether that fits you or not, I don't know. As you know, history shows that the Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus Christ.
You have no idea if I am in the body of Christ?
You dont know? You sure have a hard time wading through Roman Catholic doctrines dont you? I told you that I do not reject Jesus Christ, but I flat out reject the RCC Eucharistic sacrament.
Jesus is not in your bread and you guys are not ripping Him apart over and over again chewing Him up. What goes into the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated. Flesh avails nothing.....it is the Spirit that gives life.
If you think the Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life" you are as wrong as wrong can be!
Bread/flesh.....flesh/bread.....is all to no avail!
The Spirit gives life and the Spirit is not held in the hands of the Roman Catholic church as if the Roman Catholic church moves the Spirit to and fro at their beck and call.
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
The RCC has no monopoly or control over the Holy Spirit in giving life and it is not in your bread.
The real bread of life is Jesus Christ..........not RCC wafers!
quote:
With all of your zeal against the Catholic Church, why haven't you shown how my syllogisms against Sola Scriptura are false, based on evidence? Can you unite your zeal with logic?
I think you should stop with your word games. I have no zeal against the Catholic church.
I am opposed to ROMAN Catholic doctrines.
Your Sola Scripture diversion does nothing at all.
You like oral tradition and you think it should have some equal footing with Scripture?.........fine!
Here is some oral tradition for you;
Roman Catholic doctrine is lousy. The Holy Spirit told me that.
Do you see how that works.......anyone can do it!
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
http://www.constitutionparty.com/
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