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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 10:04:39 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
in John 6:45-59, Jesus says that He is the bread from heaven
Been there...done that
Jesus also says He is a gate.
A door, a way, a truth.
How fundie are you willing to go ?
Stick to your principle.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 10:09:57 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
in John 6:45-59, Jesus says that He is the bread from heaven
Been there...done that
Jesus also says He is a gate.
A door, a way, a truth.
How fundie are you willing to go ?
Stick to your principle.
Speaking of "Fundies": They say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. They quote John 6:35: "Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’" They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.
But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense" (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.
Fundamentalist writers who comment on John 6 also assert that one can show Christ was speaking only metaphorically by comparing verses like John 10:9 ("I am the door") and John 15:1 ("I am the true vine"). The problem is that there is not a connection to John 6:35, "I am the bread of life." "I am the door" and "I am the vine" make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).
He continues: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me" (John 6:57). The Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 10:10:00 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
In 1 Cor. 11:27, Saint Paul says if we partake of the bread unworthily, we are guilty of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of Christ. Ask your daughter, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, then how can we be guilty of profaning Christ's body and blood? You can't murder a symbol. This means that either the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, or St. Paul (the divinely-inspired writer) is imposing an unjust penalty on us.
No need to examine self...all are unworthy.
Let us however examine Christ !!!
Yea, He is altogether lovely !
You can't murder Christ...this is idle.
Unless, you are resurrecting Him again,
time after time, in order to re-sacrifice Him.
Now, that might be in the CCC or magisterium.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 10:13:10 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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No, its in the Bible.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 10:21:17 PM
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PeterD
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question only a question
Acts 15:27-29
27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
to abstain from blood, what kind of blood and all blood?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/26/2008 7:08:37 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
question only a question
Acts 15:27-29
27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
to abstain from blood, what kind of blood and all blood?
Look at the above quote: I changed where the bold text goes. Jesus wasn't strangled and He wasn't sacraficed to idols.
Also, Jesus would never tell us to do something wrong, even IF Hhe was speaking symbolically. He would tell us to have a symbolic sex ritual or a symbollic murder ritual would he? So, if eating blood was bad, He wouldn't even tell us to do it symbolically. Therefore I don't think you can use blood prohibition vereses in this matter
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/26/2008 2:19:47 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
In 1 Cor. 11:27, Saint Paul says if we partake of the bread unworthily, we are guilty of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of Christ. Ask your daughter, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, then how can we be guilty of profaning Christ's body and blood? You can't murder a symbol. This means that either the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, or St. Paul (the divinely-inspired writer) is imposing an unjust penalty on us.
What of The RCC re-presenting ?
What of the RCC continual sacrifice ?
Yet, Jesus has sat down as High Priest...
Here the pope says that the sacrifice of Jesus on
the cross is the SAME as the one the priest performs.
Then The Body of Christ that hung on the cross, is
the same body the RCC eat at communion time.
IOW, same sacrifice = same body.
The RCC says this is what communion is.
WOW !
Dominicae Cenae
On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist
His Holiness Pope John Paul II
Promulgated on February 24, 1980
The Eucharist is above all else a sacrifice. It is the sacrifice of the Redemption and also the sacrifice of the New Covenant,[46] as we believe and as the Eastern Churches clearly profess: "Today's sacrifice," the Greek Church stated centuries ago, "is like that offered once by the Only-begotten Incarnate Word; it is offered by Him (now as then), since it is one and the same sacrifice."[47]
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/26/2008 3:26:35 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello Mannamucher!
I think I told you in another thread that I am Lutheran. Here is my take on the Eucharist.
1 Corintians 10:16
16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (ESV)
Here, the Apostle Paul is connecting the wine to the blood of Christ and the bread to the body of Christ. Clearly Paul here does believe that Jesus is truly present in the meal and that we do partake of His Body and Blood.
1 Corinthians 11:27-30
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (ESV)
Now in this passage The Apostle is saying if we eat of the bread and drink of the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner we will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Sounds pretty serious. The bread and wine of communion are not just symbols, they are the body and blood of Christ.
Now Paul goes further into telling the Corinthains that is the reason why many are sick, and some have died. Some of the Corinthains when they ate of the Lord's table in such a sinful manner some actually fell dead!
If you are going to ask me if I believe in transubstantiation, I am going to answer that right now, the answer is no! We Lutherans believe in something called sacramental union, which means we believe the Eucharist is both bread and wine, and body and blood of Christ simultaneously. Sort of like the union of the 2 natures of Christ, similarly.
And Lutherans absolutely do not believe the Sacrament of the Altar is a re-sacrificing of Jesus. We absolutely do not believe that at all! What we believe is that Jesus sacrificed himself one time in Calvary on the Cross for our sins, and that in the Sacrament Christ distributes that same body and blood to us in the Sacrament of the Altar. But it's about Christ giving His Body and Blood to us in the sacrament, not us giving a sacrifice to Him, as the Roman Catholics teach.
Soli Deo Gloria!
(To God Alone be the Glory)
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/29/2008 11:36:11 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2840
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If you disagree with the RCC
they say you are ANATHEMA !!!
SESSION THE THIRTEENTH,
Being the third under the Sovereign Pontiff, Julius III., celebrated on the eleventh day of October, MDLI.
DECREE CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
CHAPTER VIII.
On the use of this admirable Sacrament.
ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
CANON V.-If any one saith, either that the principal fruit of the most holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or, that other effects do not result therefrom; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that it is not lawful for the sacred Eucharist to be reserved in the sacrarium, but that, immediately after consecration, it must necessarily be distributed amongst those present; or, that it is not lawful that it be carried with honour to the sick; let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-lf any one saith, that Christ, given in the Eucharist, is eaten spiritually only, and not also sacramentally and really; let him be anathema
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/30/2008 7:48:30 AM
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martyfran
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What is your point, Manna?
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/31/2008 4:33:11 AM
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kelman
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quote:
In 1 Cor. 11:27, Saint Paul says if we partake of the bread unworthily, we are guilty of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of Christ. Ask your daughter, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, then how can we be guilty of profaning Christ's body and blood? The verse doesn't say guilty of "murder". It simply says "guilty". That Greek word is used 8 times in Scripture, it means the following:
1) bound, under obligation, subject to, liable
a) used of one who is held by, possessed with love, and zeal for anything
b) in a forensic sense, denoting the connection of a person either with his crime, or with the penalty or trial, or with that against whom or which he has offended
1) guilty, worthy of punishment
2) guilty of anything
3) of the crime
4) of the penalty
5) liable to this or that tribunal i.e. the punishment to by imposed by this or that tribunal
6) of the place where punishment is to be suffered
quote:
This means that either the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, or St. Paul (the divinely-inspired writer) is imposing an unjust penalty on us.
No, it only means RC is imposing an unbiblcal view on the "body and blood" of Christ. Christ always taught in metaphors; and, He was doing precisely that here.
The Corinthians were basically making a mockery of the simple Communion service by their feasting; they conducted themselves with irreverence and rudeness. They were not "discerning the Lord's body" with their actions by coming to the Communion table as if it were "common bread".
BTW, throughout the chapter Paul is clear that even after the blessing the bread remained bread - it had not changed.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/31/2008 4:35:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3854
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
question only a question
Acts 15:27-29
27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
to abstain from blood, what kind of blood and all blood?
Look at the above quote: I changed where the bold text goes. Jesus wasn't strangled and He wasn't sacraficed to idols.
Also, Jesus would never tell us to do something wrong, even IF Hhe was speaking symbolically. He would tell us to have a symbolic sex ritual or a symbollic murder ritual would he? So, if eating blood was bad, He wouldn't even tell us to do it symbolically. Therefore I don't think you can use blood prohibition vereses in this matter
.
Exactlly right - Jesus would never tell us to do anything wrong. It is for this reason that He would NEVER command the drinking of blood because it is a sin to do so. It is a command from the OT and one which was reissued in the NT.
God was gracious enough to include in the NT the prohibition against the drinking of blood so that we have further proof from Scripture that Christ is teaching metaphorically in John as He always did elsewhere in Scripture.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/31/2008 6:48:15 PM
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JesKlu
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Kelman I am going to have to disagree with ou on your take of the Eucharist. Now, I do not believe in transubstantion, but the Lutherans do believe the bread and wine in the supper are truly Christ's body and blood. Why? We take the words of Christ at face value at that point because He was not speaking symbolically anymore. They were the words of a covenant.
1 Corinthians 11:23-25
23For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
This is my body, this is my blood. These are the words of a covenant. So, these words are to be taken literally, nothing less. So the bread and wine are then truly Christ's body and blood. And Kelman, you cannot compare it to cannabolism, because Jesus is Divine, He is God. He can give us His Body and Blood in the supper without it being cannabolism.
How Jesus gives us His Body and Blood is a mystery. But we know He gives us His body and blood in the Lord's Supper, and that is all we need to know.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/31/2008 10:27:31 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2840
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, it only means RC is imposing an unbiblcal view on the "body and blood" of Christ. Christ always taught in metaphors; and, He was doing precisely that here.
The Corinthians were basically making a mockery of the simple Communion service by their feasting; they conducted themselves with irreverence and rudeness. They were not "discerning the Lord's body" with their actions by coming to the Communion table as if it were "common bread".
BTW, throughout the chapter Paul is clear that even after the blessing the bread remained bread - it had not changed.
What the RCC forgets (amazingly) is
that Jesus Christ is a Jew ! Not a RC.
You clearly and unequivocably posted this
earlier, that Jesus would obey Jewish (God's)
commands and not condone, and certainly
not endorse, any type of blood consumption.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 8/1/2008 12:04:35 AM
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JesKlu
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I also found the writings of the Early Church Fathers to agree that the bread and wine in Holy Communion are the true body and blood of Christ, as it is said in the Scriptures.
Iraneus of Lyons
Chapter 2 of Book 5
11 And as we are His members, we are also nourished by means of the creation (and He Himself grants the creation to us, for He causes His sun to rise, and sends rain when He wills12 ). He has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.13
3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made,14 from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?-even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that "we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones."15 He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh;16 but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,-that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
The Early Church Fathers believed exactly as the Lutherans do today. When the Word of God, the words of Instituion, are said over the bread and wine, the bread and wine, because of the Word and promise of Christ, are then truly Christ's body and blood. Iraeneus and the Apostle Paul seem to agree.
Iraneus personally knew Polycarp. Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle (the one whom Jesus loved). So, I would then have to trust his words, because he lived MUCH closer to the time of the Apostles.
It was never a belief in Christendom that the bread and wine are merely symbols. That came about as a result of Calvin, trying to mess with the Historic Christian faith. Martin Luther, on the other hand, never touched that area. He didn't believe in transubstantiation as Roman Catholics do, but neither do the Eastern Orthodox for that matter. But Martin Luther did not make up some new interpretation about the Lord's Supper. He kept to it that the Communion Supper (The Sacrament of the Altar), is truly Christ's body and blood, as evidenced in the Early Writings of Scripture, and the Early Church Fathers. And Iraeneus is no 4th century father either. He is like, beginning of 2nd century, personally knowing Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle.
Soli Deo Gloria!
(To God Alone be the Glory)
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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