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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 3:04:33 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 622
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
WILDBYNATURE WROTE:
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The doctrine of “the Trinity” took centuries to develop, but the roots of the doctrine can be seen from the first century.
Correct. The same is true with the Marian doctrines and the intercession of the saints.
Incorrect. First, we are talking about a biblical doctrine -- the Marian doctrines and the intercession of the saints are not found in the Scriptures and cannot be proven by the Scriptures. Second, we are talking about "from the first century" -- there is no evidence of the Marian doctrines and the intercession of the saints prior to end of the 4th Century -- which, coincidently, is about the time the CC was established -- and, who you have admitted, accepts pagan practices.
Let's take a look:
“Thus reliable evidence of prayers being addressed to her, or of her protection and help being sought, is almost (though not entirely) non-existent in the first four centuries…There is evidence, sparse but persuasive, that a genuine cult of the Virgin was emerging about this time, and that prayers were beginning to be addressed to her. Thus Epiphanius, writing in the 370s, describes a sect, the Collyridians, who celebrated a form of worship in connection with her. He was at pains to refute such heretical practices, protesting like other orthodox writers that, while Mary was beautiful, holy and deserving of great honour, worship should be confined to Almighty God alone.” –J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, rev. ed. (Peabody, MA: Prince Press, reprinted 2003), pp.491, 497-498.
Here are some of the quotes from ECFs that confirm this:
“For every prayer, and supplication, and intercession, and thanksgiving, is to be sent up to the Supreme God through the High Priest, who is above all the angels, the living Word and God. And to the Word Himself shall we also pray and make intercessions, and offer thanksgivings and supplications to Him, if we have the capacity of distinguishing between the proper use and abuse of prayer. For to invoke angels without having obtained a knowledge of their nature greater than is possessed by men, would be contrary to reason. But, conformably to our hypothesis, let this knowledge of them, which is something wonderful and mysterious, be obtained. Then this knowledge, making known to us their nature, and the offices to which they are severally appointed, will not permit us to pray with confidence to any other than to the Supreme God, who is sufficient for all things, and that through our Saviour the Son of God, who is the Word, and Wisdom, and Truth, and everything else which the writings of God’s prophets and the apostles of Jesus entitle Him...Celsus forgets that he is addressing Christians, who pray to God alone through Jesus.” -Origen, Against Celsus 5.4-5, 8.37
“Moreover, when we stand praying, beloved brethren, we ought to be watchful and earnest with our whole heart, intent on our prayers. Let all carnal and worldly thoughts pass away, nor let the soul at that time think on anything but the object only of its prayer. For this reason also the priest, by way of preface before his prayer, prepares the minds of the brethren by saying, ‘Lift up your hearts,’ that so upon the people’s response, ‘We lift them up unto the Lord,’ he may be reminded that he himself ought to think of nothing but the Lord. Let the breast be closed against the adversary, and be open to God alone…” -Cyprian, On the Lord’s Prayer 31
“…it is manifest that those who either make prayers to the dead, or venerate the earth, or make over their souls to unclean spirits, do not act as becomes men, and that they will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt, who, rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, have undertaken inexpiable rites, and violated every sacred law.” -Lactantius, The Divine Institutes 2.18
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Tertullian coined the term "Trinity". Clearly the doctrine of the “Trinity” cannot be credited to the CC as the idea was truly implicit before the CC existed.
I think nobody has given evidence that the Catholic Church is not the Biblical Church.
Sure they have, you just don't want to believe it.
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The Church in Tertullian’s time was called “the Catholic Church”, and held to the distinctively Catholic doctrines, including prayers for the dead.
I'm afraid not. The "catholic" church of Tertullian's day was not the CC/RC of today. In fact, Tertullian rejected the invocation of the saints and even denied that the saints "went at once and forthwith to glory". Tertullian opposed may CC doctrines such as the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity, the use of "relics" and "statutes" in the church -- and even said "the making of an idol is worship". Not to mention he opposed infant baptism, and believed schisms and dissention were necessary according to God's will. Does that sound like the CC you know? Does that sound like "unity" in the "historical Church"?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 3:49:21 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
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WILDBYNATURE WROTE:
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We know the RC accepts pagan and secular sources,
Not in the sense which you seem to mean. I think that the Biblical Church had always believed the Catholic Marian doctrines.
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
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If you believe 1Kings 2:19 is speaking of Mary, then you must also believe that Jesus bows down before Mary: "And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her".
I think that Jesus Christ, in his all-sovereignty, can bow to whomever he wishes.
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Lame.
Where in Scripture do the Apostles or Christ cite Scripture by chapter and verse?
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Exactly ... we belong to GOD, not Mary.
I totally agree with the first part. After a lot of study, I think the Scriptures indicate that we are children of Mary, also.
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The only intercessor we have is Jesus Christ. There is no other who can intercede for us.
I think this is a false dichotomy which contradicts the Scriptures, such as Rev 5:8:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
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As for it being “bad” to communicate with those in the grave (dead) … Deut 18:10-11…..
So was Jesus violating this injunction when he conversed with Moses and Elijah? Do all the prohibitions of the Old Covenant apply in the same way in the New? I don’t think there is anything wrong with somebody humbly asking their faithful, departed mother or friend to pray for them.
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Your turn … where does Scripture say Mary is "the preeminent Christian"?
The Scriptures testify to the one, historic Church, which testifies that Mary is the model disciple of Jesus Christ. And as the Scriptures record the words of Mary:
“Behold, the slave of the Lord. Be it done to me according to your word.”
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Where in these verses do you see prayers directed to anyone or anything other than God?
Paul was asking others to pray for him. That’s what Catholics mean by “prayer to the saints”: asking the Saints to pray for us. Historically, the Catholic Church is the only source of the N.T. Canon
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm
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Where is praying to a dead guy in any of those verses?
The N.T. never calls the faithful depart “dead guys”. The N.T calls them “the spirits of the just made perfect” (cf. Heb 12:23). I don’t believe that praying to the saints is explicit in the N.T.
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You assume the spirits you are praying to are in heaven.
I think they are in heaven. You think that Sola Scriptura is Biblical.
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Sorry, no. I don’t accept any Catholic teaching. I believe in the “Canon” and the “Trinity” because they are taught in the Scriptures.
I agree they are implicit both implicit in some manner in the Scriptures. I think this is true also of all of the Catholic beliefs, including Marian doctrine and prayer to the saints.
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So where is this clear teaching that Mary is the “queen of heaven”? I must have missed it
Right. Go back and look at Jer 13:18-20, 1 Kings 2:19:20, Rev 12:1, and the other "Queen Mother" verses from the O.T. As Scripture says,
"At your right hand stands the Queen in gold of Ophir".
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The “Biblical Church” has never believed in Apostolic succession, church infallibility, Peter Pebble or the pope.
I agree that the Church has never believed that “Petros” means pebble. Historically, the Church has always believed in Apostolic Succession and Church infallibility, which is supported by Her Scriptures.
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BTW, isn’t it interesting that Propaganda is the name of a RCC division of the Roman Curia that has authority in the matter of preaching the gospel, of establishing the Church in non-Christian countries, and of administering Church missions in territories where there is no properly organized hierarchy.
Interesting that you bring that up. I was just reading how the early protestant missionaries said the best Biblical translations were those of the “Roman Propaganda”. (Propaganda doesn’t necessarily have a deceptive connotation.).
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711clas.asp
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Expressed orally and then in writing – thus we have the Scriptures.
Right; unless by this you mean that the basis of the Christian faith changed, or that the Scriptures are the sole form of the Word of God, which is an un-Biblical idea.
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If that is the case, then why is the RC’s “word of mouth” separated from the “writ”.
I don’t think they are. I think Church history is very helpful in understanding how the Holy Spirit understands the Scriptures.
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If the Ethiopian could not understand the Scriptures without Philip’s help, then how come after he believed God took Philip away from him?
That he couldn’t understand without Philip is clear in the text. As far as why Phillip was taken away…that is a matter of speculation.
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Actually, the “automatic out” was the way the RC defines the “Word of God” to include extra-biblical sources which are claimed to be as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves.
Catholics follow the Scriptural and constant Christian historical practice. As Scripture says,
“Therefore hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by a letter or ours.” (2 Thes 2:15) cf. 2 Jn 12.
If there were a confict between the constant Tradition and the Scriptures this would be another matter.
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Mary gave birth to “the man Christ Jesus” – not the divinity.
The man, Christ Jesus, is also God.
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God existed long before Mary. 1Tim 2:5; Rom 5:15-17; John 8:58.
We totally agree there.
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Syllogisms may be a valid form of logic, but they are meant to be used with valid premises or the conclusion is nothing more than deception.
Correct, and one of my syllogisms has been problematic in the past. I think the one about Mary—which is confirmed by the only historic Church--is irrefutable.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
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The problem with the one above, is that the Jesus that walked among us was the Son of God, not God the Father –
My syllogism does not require belief that Mary pre-dated the Son of God, or that Jesus is God the Father.
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as your “premise” wants us to believe in order for Mary to be worshipped as being divine by association.
My syllogism did not show that Mary should be worshipped.
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Here’s a perfect example of the deception behind your logic:
1. Mary was married to Joseph.
2. Mary gave birth to the Son of God.
3. Therefore, Joseph is God.Or, how about: 3. Therefore, Mary was an adulteress.
These two alternate and contradictory “conclusions” show that this syllogism is far from certain.
Could you show what is wrong with the premises or conclusion of “my” syllogism?
I.Mary is the mother of Jesus (Jn 2:1)
2.Jesus is God.
3.Then Mary is the Mother of God.
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Have the dead been raised already?
The saints are alive, as Scripture says. I think they don’t have their bodies, however, which is why they are called “spirits” (cf. Heb 12:23)
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”Jer 13:18-20” If you believe this is speaking of Jesus (king) and Mary (queen), then you are saying they were so full of pride that God had to punish them and humble them by removing their crowns
I’m simply showing how the Bible calls the King’s Mother “the Queen Mother”, and that she had responsibility for the flock.
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It's a mess alright. You have been unable to prove the Scriptures teach Mary is the "queen of heaven", and your other two reasons are simply "because the RC tells you to believe it" -- based on extra-biblical traditions of man and false apostles.
We disagree in our interpretations. You say that the Queen Mother concept isn’t in Scripture. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, et al, say that the Trinity concept isn’t in Scripture.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/8/2009 4:26:14 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 4:10:12 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2719
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
I think that Jesus Christ, in his all-sovereignty, can bow to whomever he wishes.
Pure blasphemy.
Repent, Patricius, of this atrocity.
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I think they are in heaven. You think that Sola Scriptura is Biblical.
Typical form of diversion.
Bottom line, you *think* they are in heaven, but you don't *know,* so as far as I am concerned, you are praying to, somewhere along the line, dead heathens. Which is condemned by Scripture.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 6:06:33 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3711
Joined: 12/2/2006
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WildByNature,
You take oral traditions that are thrown at you along with incorrect and muddled up doctrines that are thrown at you and you chew them up and spit them out in a way that makes sense.
Anyways........it is nice to read your posts.
KJB
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Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 7:15:59 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
there is no evidence of the Marian doctrines…. prior to end of the 4th Century
This is incorrect.
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
For the other Marian doctrines:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
In all fairness, that was a good link... Right up until the quotes from about the end of the 4th century start, just like WBN stated.
First, I really like this bit:
"Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
I don't see a problem calling Mary the mother of God. The only other views are soundly refuted by Scripture: Ebionism claims Jesus was fully human, but denies His deity. Docetism claims Jesus was fully divine, but denies His humanity. Apollinarianism claims Jesus had a human body but had His spirit replaced with a divine one, and so denies He was truly human. Eutychianism claims Jesus was only partly divine and partly human, thus denying His full deity and full humanity. Nestorianism claimed that Jesus was fully divine and fully human, but that they were essentially two separate persons.
All of these are unbiblical and thus heretical. The only correct position is that which was stated above.
Regarding the quotes provided, they do not, as WBN claimed, teach Marian doctrine as it is now known. She is nowhere equated with God, she is nowhere the object of prayer, and her veneration is nowhere required for salvation.... until you get to the quotes around 300 A.D.!!!! You can see a progression, quote by quote, from the very early quotes from approx. 100-300 A.D. which merely acknowledge of what is actually IN Scripture about Mary, to full out unbiblical Mary worshiping heresies starting around the early 4th century. It just gets worse and worse as the quotes move forward through time! (Though not ALL of the quotes after 300 A.D. are bad, just noting the trend of Marian doctrine going from Scriptural to purely made-up)
For example, one of the early quotes:
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189])."
That is fantastic! Just a reiteration of Scripture!
But, jump forward to, say, Methodius in 305 A.D.:
"Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away
We somehow moved from mere reiteration of Scripture to praying and worshiping a dead human woman! What a load of garbage!
Anyway, take out the heretical quotes and your link is very good!
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 9:17:31 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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WILDBYNATURE WROTE:
quote:
the Marian doctrines and the intercession of the saints are not found in the Scriptures and cannot be proven by the Scriptures.
So we disagree on this point.
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Second, we are talking about "from the first century"
Right, but you yourself said that the doctrine of the Trinity developed over the centuries, though it was present from the beginning. The same is true of other doctrines, such as invocation of the saints in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
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there is no evidence of the Marian doctrines…. prior to end of the 4th Century
This is incorrect. Here is St. Irenaeus in the 100s:
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Irenaeus. Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
For the other Marian doctrines in the Fathers:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
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there is no evidence of…the intercession of the saints prior to end of the 4th Century
I think this is incorrect. For instance, here is St. Methodius in about 305 A.D.
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women…that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us…. " (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
For more:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
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prior to end of the 4th Century -- which, coincidently, is about the time the CC was established --.
I don’t think I have ever been given convincing evidence of this. (See the long quotation just below.)
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and, who you have admitted, accepts pagan practices
No… at least not in the sense you seem to mean. The Church does not assume that something—such as ritual meals, or ancestor veneration--is entirely wrong simply because pagans believed or practiced it. Cf. 1 Cor 11:23-29.
"According to modern Fundamentalists, the original Christian Church was doctrinally the same as today’s Fundamentalist churches. When Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in A.D. 313, pagans flocked to the Church in hopes of secular preferment, but the Church could not assimilate so many. It soon compromised….
“The trouble with this history is that there are no historical facts whatsoever to back it up. Distinctively Catholic beliefs—the papacy, priesthood, invocation of saints, sacraments, veneration of Mary, salvation by something besides "faith alone," purgatory—were evident long before the fourth century, before Constantine….Another difficulty is that there are no historical records—none at all—which imply an underground Fundamentalist church….In those years there were many schisms and heresies, most now vanished, but present-day Fundamentalists cannot find among them their missing Fundamentalist church. There were no groups that believed in all or even most, of the doctrines espoused by the Protestant Reformers (e.g. sola scriptura, salvation by "faith alone," and an invisible church).
For more of this article: [“Catholic or Fundamentalist”. Catholic Answers San Diego 2004]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Fundamentalist_or_Catholic.asp
To see that this is true in regard to this article’s claims about the early Catholic Church:
http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm
To see the parallels between Protestantism and ancient pagan religions, see:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp
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“Christians, who pray to God alone through Jesus.” -Origen, Against Celsus 5.4-5, 8.37
Right. It is not clear to me, however, that Origen is addressing the matter of humbly invoking the saints. Certainly, it is not clear that he thinks the saints are “dead”, or that the early Church thought this. As Scripture says,
“whoever lives and believes in Me will never die.”
Certainly, Origen does recognize that that the saints and angels are alive and intercede for us:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Origen. Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
As I understand it, from here the Church discerned that we may ask these saints and angels for prayers—just as the Biblical saints asked others for prayers--which clearly does not equate with worshipping them.
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”….also the priest, by way of preface before his prayer, prepares the minds of the brethren by saying, ‘Lift up your hearts,’ that so upon the people’s response, ‘We lift them up unto the Lord,’ he may be reminded that he himself ought to think of nothing but the Lord. Let the breast be closed against the adversary, and be open to God alone…” -Cyprian, On the Lord’s Prayer 31
This does suggest Cyprian’s teaching that an ordained Catholic priest “takes the place of Jesus Christ” as he says elsewhere. I don’t find that it addresses the issue of prayer to the saints.
Here St. Cyprian on prayer to the saints:
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
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[pat said]“I think nobody has given evidence that the Catholic Church is not the Biblical Church.” Sure they have, you just don't want to believe it.
No….I really think I would be willing to leave the Catholic Church if I could find a historical (and) Biblical basis for distinguishing Her from the fullness of Christianity.
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The "catholic" church of Tertullian's day was not the CC/RC of today.
Based on my reading of the Biblical and post-Biblical fathers, I can’t agree, but I respect your sincerity.
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In fact, Tertullian rejected the invocation of the saints and even denied that the saints "went at once and forthwith to glory".
This is possible since Tertullian eventually fell away very much from the Church (and into Montanism) but do you have documentation on these points?
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Tertullian opposed many CC doctrines such as the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity, the use of "relics" and "statutes" in the church
I didn’t know that--except about the Perpetual Virginity, which you are right about. Do you have documentation links?
I know from my reading of his writings that around 200 A.D. he was mostly an orthodox Catholic, especially on the doctrines which were more thoroughly developed at that time. For instance here is Tertullian on the doctrine of prayers for the dead, which is related to the doctrine of prayers to the saints:
"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).
"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
See below where I show Tertullian’s teachings on Apostolic Succession.
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Not to mention he opposed infant baptism,
This is true—at least in regard to his own preference—though he did adhere to the ancient Catholic teaching on Baptismal regeneration.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp
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and believed schisms and dissention were necessary according to God's will.
Could you explain this more and give document/s? I would agree in some sense that divisions must come in order to separate the “approved” from the unapproved (as Paul says), but not in the sense that God wills disunity within the Church, which is one Body, in One Spirit. Cf. Jn 17:11, 1 Cor 12:12-13.
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Does that sound like the CC you know? Does that sound like "unity" in the "historical Church"?
Well, let’s please see what the documentation shows about Tertullian, first. For instance, please see what Tertullian writes about the Church’s doctrine of Apostolic Succession and Unity at:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp
But in any case, the unity of the historic Church certainly does not stand or fall based on the views of Tertullian, whom Catholics recognize as a heretic, though we value the historical value of his writings.
But the unity, infallibility, and perpetuity of the historic Church is the teaching of the the Scriptures, which say,
"...and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Mt 16:18
And again:
"...on His throne, and over His Kingdom, which He confirms and sustains, by judgment and justice, both now and forever." Is 9:7
Cf. Eph 1:23, 1 Tim 3:15, Jn 16:13, Lk 1:32-33.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/8/2009 10:26:58 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/8/2009 10:24:14 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Pat:
All you did was regurgitate nearly word for word copy/paste what you already posted. Please don't do that, it wastes everybody's time. Just say, "Refer to post #xxxx", please, and then post any new thoughts.
Have the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church? (Not the Roman denomination, but the actual entire Church).
Has His kingdom ceased?
No & no. Not because of the Roman denomination, but in spite of it.
And regarding, "Tertullian is a heretic": ROFLMBO! The exact same tactic you accuse us Sola Scriptura folks of using! LOL! If they agree with your doctrine, well, they are obviously correct! But if they disagree, well, they are heretics!
Pot, meet kettle. 
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2009 1:06:12 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 622
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
And regarding, "Tertullian is a heretic": ROFLMBO! The exact same tactic you accuse us Sola Scriptura folks of using! LOL! If they agree with your doctrine, well, they are obviously correct! But if they disagree, well, they are heretics!
ManimalX, you are exactly right! Tertullian wasn't declared a heretic until after he left the church -- he was never excommunicated or anathematized.
But, the real kicker is that even in the encyclical Fides et Ratio, John Paul II uses Tertullian’s words to support his arguments concerning the distinction between theology and philosophy. And isn’t this something we often see with Catholic theologians and apologists? A source is a heretic or mighty man of God, depending upon how his words are to be used. Notice how even patricius79 uses Tertullian to defend the views which agree with his. This is one of the major failings of reliance on "tradition" for dogma and doctrine.
----------------------------------------
Patricius -- I will try to respond to your post as time allows. Monday's are very busy days for me.
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2009 3:44:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
kelman,
quote:
The "locomotive" remarks do not rise anywhere near to the level of dishonor and disrespect done to Mary than what RC is doing to her memory.
Addressing Mary by the title given to a pagan goddess...is this anything a Christian should be doing?
Ascribing to Mary all the unique qualities of the Lord Jesus Christ...is this anything a Christian should be doing?
True.
Think about this one phrase in a prayer to Mary;
I greet thee, Mary,
Lady and Mistress,
to whom all power has been given
in Heaven and on earth.
This woman, which was no doubt blessed by God and had a unique role in history, is made out to be some sort of super all powerful hero of the universe. I would think if she had all the power in heaven and on earth she would be able to either propel or halt any locomotive with ease! Of all the unbiblical RC doctrines, I think this is the most serious. It is simply indefensible. Mary is afforded the worship which God commands must be reserved for Him alone.
Regardless of RC's denials, these prayers to her are pure worship and labeling them something else is done simply to appear not to be in "outright" contradiction of Scripture. The fact is, it is a very serious offense.
quote:
Those in the RCC would like to instantly scream "offensive" because it takes the reader away from the absurdity of the phrase and tries to pull at the heart strings (emotions) of the reader instead of anything factual. If the phrase is factual and based on facts she should be faster than any speeding bullet and stronger than any locomotive and it should not be offensive to claim that she is. This business of "emotionalism" is very relevant. It is a religion of "emotion". We see it in its "art"...the bleeding heart of Jesus', and as we know the Lord Jesus cannot be unique, therefore, Mary also be depicted with a bleeding heart.
We see images of a beautiful regal woman holding a powerless babe. We see Mary with a crown standing atop the universe obviously implying she is the ruler of it. So, RC art and its prayers, like the one above, go hand in hand to import the message of her power and authority.
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The thing is, most Roman Catholics do not want to bring people into their group by using facts......they appeal to emotions without facts and Roman Catholics are a very emotional and superstitious people. Yes, do we even need to address all the phony "apparitions"?....these and all the above meant to appeal to the senses and not the spirit. God is Spirit and it is our spirit which must be changed. From all the outward evidence it is apparent that RC prefers God's creature to God Himself. We do know, however, that on occasion exteriors can be deceiving and that God alone knows the heart.
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That is why they have lists of saints to pray to for all of the things of the world......it comforts them emotionally. Yes, precisely why the pagans gathered many gods so as to "cover all the bases".
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It is not dis-respectful to the person of Mary to mention things that bring out the absurdity of the absurd phrase itself. It is the phrase that is absurd. Exactly, demonstrating absurdity with absurdity.
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It is the reading of the phrase and then being told we dont know how to interpret or understand what it means as if Roman Catholic English is not understandable by English speaking protestants. Isn't that interesting? I mean we're all reading the same prayer and yet RC asserts we are not reading about "worship". They apply the old joke..."who 'ya gonna believe...me, or your own eyes ?". Basically, it goes like this "we'll call it by another name and God will never know the difference."
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2009 3:47:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
The Church has never rejected anything good or salvage-able in pagan or secular sources, This is an extraordinary sentence, although, it explains much. The pagans obviously had many gods and goddess. The "church" wanted converts, therefore, the "church" provided the pagans with what they were used to - many gods.
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By the way: the practice of giving chapter and verse is not not Scriptural, though it is no prohibited by Scripture.
What does this even mean?....Christians should not appeal to Scripture(chapter and verse) for its doctrines? Wherever does this type of thought originate?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2009 3:48:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
I think that Jesus Christ, in his all-sovereignty, can bow to whomever he wishes.
Pure blasphemy.
Repent, Patricius, of this atrocity. The more one learns about RC theology and the beliefs of its adherents, the more disturbing it becomes.....declaring that the Creator of heaven and earth, God Almighty Himself should bow before the creature Mary.
This is heartbreaking yet not totally unexpected. RC makes similar assertions in other areas also - that the Lord Jesus Christ is subservient and obedient to that which He created:
"The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest's command."
Written by a RC priest who received the Imprimatur of RC for such blasphemy.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2009 3:07:00 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
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MANIMALX WROTE:
quote:
And regarding, "Tertullian is a heretic": ROFLMBO!
(I don’t know what "ROFLMBO!" means.) As I understand it Tertullian fell into Montanism, which Catholics—and protestants--regard as a heresy.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp
quote:
The exact same tactic you accuse us Sola Scriptura folks of using! LOL! If they agree with your doctrine, well, they are obviously correct! But if they disagree, well, they are heretics!
I don’t recall making this argument, which is obviously so simplistic as to be useless.
WILDBYNATURE WROTE:
quote:
But, the real kicker is that even in the encyclical Fides et Ratio, John Paul II uses Tertullian’s words to support his arguments concerning the distinction between theology and philosophy.
It is true that Catholics quote from Tertullian—for example, the Catholic Catechism does—when Tertullian was correct on a point. He seems to have been regarded as a brilliant exegete of Scripture before his fall from grace, and his documents are early, and indicates—when read with other documents, primarily being the Catholic Canon—what the early Church was teaching.
quote:
And isn’t this something we often see with Catholic theologians and apologists? A source is a heretic or mighty man of God, depending upon how his words are to be used. Notice how even patricius79 uses Tertullian to defend the views which agree with his. This is one of the major failings of reliance on "tradition" for dogma and doctrine.
I’m not sure exactly what you mean to be proving logically….
Let’s take Tertuallian on Apostolic Succession, which I had brought up, along with on prayers for the dead. I don’t assume that because Tertullian taught these, they are true. But when I see Tertullian’s teaching as an example of what the other fathers clearly taught and what the Scriptures teach, then I am impressed on these two doctrines, and consider this doctrine or practice to be the Word of God.
In other words, the arguments against the Catholic view seem to necessarily assume that there WAS NO continuous historical consensus in the early Church. I find this impossible and contradictory of the Scriptures, which teach that the Church is one historic Body--hence "unanimous"--and perpetual (Dn 2:44). The other documents seem to support this view:
http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp
Let's take a practical instance...
For instance, here is Hilary of Poitier on the Communion of Saints:
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
Now, when I look at this, I don’t think, “Wow. Hilary is considered a doctor of the Church by Roman Catholics: therefore, this must be true, since I would just die if I didn’t follow the religion I was raised in.”
What I think goes more like this, which is a somewhat “stream-of-consciousness” summary of my thinking:
1)Hilary could be wrong, since any given father can err, even if they are better-regarded than Tertullian or Origen.
2)what Hillary says usually seems to concur with my own interpretation of Scriptures.
3)there doesn’t seem to be any sort of good evidence for the "invisible Church" or "fallible Church" ideas, which contradict the Scriptures, such as Mt 5:14, 1 Tim 3:15.
4)the consensus of the continuous early Church between 33 A.D. and 500 A.D. is clearly Catholic, though the Church fathers were human.
5)the Catholic Church teaches dogmatically that it is okay to pray to the saints.
6)I personally don’t have significant experience of danger in praying to the saints devoutly,though I do awarely experience temptations to idolatry elsewhere.
7)I don’t find the arguments against the Catholic Church to be logically conclusive. And I find the Sola Scriptura idea to be self-contradictory since it is not in Scripture.
8)when I pray to God, he doesn't seem to be telling me to abandon this practice or leave any Catholic doctrine. I would be willing to listen, since I want--above all--to go to heaven.
9)based on historical documents, Christianity must be true, since belief is the only way to account for the data.
10)so I think that if I am going to be a Christian, then this means being Catholic.
WILDBYNATURE WROTE:
quote:
ManimalX, you are exactly right! Tertullian wasn't declared a heretic until after he left the church -- he was never excommunicated or anathematized.
That may be true. I don’t know.
_____________________________________________________
"Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom...."
Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18(A.D. 157),in ANF,I:43
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/saints.htm
Cf. (2 Kgs. 13:20-21).
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/10/2009 2:54:46 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/20/2009 5:59:19 PM
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seekeratthesea
Posts: 30
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: seekeratthesea
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
Do Catholics pray to the saints or Mary?
Discuss the differences in this doctrine and come to a better understanding of those who believe differently.
I used to be catholic and catholics definitely pray to the saints and especially to Mary....something I see no reason for.
The problem I've seen is that I ended up with people who have a chip on their shoulder about catholicism trying to tell that it automatically equals worship, which every catholic and ex catholic on the planet knows isn't true.
Well, this is one ex-catholic who knows that it is, in fact, true. Prayer to spiritual beings is worship. When we pray to God, we're worshipping Him. If, God forbid, prayer is directed to Mary or the saints - it is worship.
Now, the harisplitting obfuscation of "degrees" may be employed for the purpose of alleviating guilt. However, Scripture knows nothing of "degrees" - only of prayer to God. Of course, that's excepting the praying done by the pagans.
It's not worship and ex-catholics know it. There is anti-catholic theology out there which teaches it to be worship. There are also many ex catholics who embrace anti catholic theology as a means of explaining to themselves or others why they left the catholic church.
And when it comes to anti catholics, the hairsplitting of degrees is done to assign guilt onto catholics for practicing their faith in a way that anti catholics disapprove of. It only works amongst other anti catholics though. Christianity at large recognizes catholicism as legitimate Christianity and affords catholics the benefit of the doubt when they say they don't worship Mary......which is the right thing to do. It's only the anti catholic crowd that doesn't afford catholics the normal right to speak for themselves on this issue.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/20/2009 8:54:37 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2071
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quote:
It's not worship and ex-catholics know it.
Praying to anyone other than God would be better defined as idolatry.
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"You are never more free than when you fulfill the plan God has for your life." Warren Wiersbe
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/20/2009 9:48:37 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 592
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
Praying to anyone other than God would be better defined as idolatry.
I think that idolatry is when somebody believes something or someone other than God is God....but Catholics don't believe that Mary is God....I was just reading Vatican II's dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium), which is very clear to point out that all exaggeration about Mary must be avoided, and that Mary can add nothing to the unique grace of the one Mediator....
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/20/2009 10:29:51 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/21/2009 4:22:55 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2719
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
Praying to anyone other than God would be better defined as idolatry.
I think that idolatry is when somebody believes something or someone other than God is God....but Catholics don't believe that Mary is God....I was just reading Vatican II's dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium), which is very clear to point out that all exaggeration about Mary must be avoided, and that Mary can add nothing to the unique grace of the one Mediator....
It is nice to redefine idolatry so you don't fit under its umbrella, isn't it?
Webster has this to say about what idolatry is:
"Excessive attachment or veneration for anything; respect or love which borders on adoration."
Another definition is:
"Blind or excessive devotion to something."
With that in mind, on to Mary:
After giving doctrinal justification to veneration of the Blessed Virgin, the Second Vatican Council exhorts all the faithful to promote it: "The Sacred Synod teaches this Catholic doctrine advisedly and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries, be highly esteemed" (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
The conciliar text goes on to ask believers "that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the veneration of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed" (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
"Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile nor transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to recognize the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love towards our Mother and to the imitation of her virtues" (Lumen gentium, n. 67).
Sounds like idolatry to me.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/21/2009 4:28:37 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2719
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
which is very clear to point out that all exaggeration about Mary must be avoided, and that Mary can add nothing to the unique grace of the one Mediator....
From the Catechism:
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
Hmm. Not only exaggerated, but she is able to gift us with eternal salvation . . . how is that NOT adding to what the Mediator has?
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rawr.ben
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/21/2009 6:18:31 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
I was just reading Vatican II's dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium), which is very clear to point out that all exaggeration about Mary must be avoided, and that Mary can add nothing to the unique grace of the one Mediator....
Umm... I seem to be detecting a pattern in these threads of claims that contradict the Catechism. This is another one.
Here are some "exaggerations" of Mary found in the Catechism itself.
All from the Catechism:
quote:
"491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135
492 The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
"Let it be done to me according to your word. . ."
quote:
Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."
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Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ.
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507 At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the Church
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511 The Virgin Mary "co-operated through free faith and obedience in human salvation" (LG 56). She uttered her yes "in the name of all human nature" (St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.
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967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity.
quote:
971 "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
And that isn't even getting into some of the blatantly idolatrous prayers to Mary in the Catechism.
Sorry, Pat, but your claim that "all exaggeration about Mary must be avoided" by the Roman church is (with the most respect I can muster) eye-rollingly false. Worship and exaggeration of Mary infects Roman doctrine like an incurable plague.
If you want to properly denounce such heretical exaggerations, you would do well.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/21/2009 6:19:48 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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rawr.ben: Jinx!
I guess we both found out how silly Pat's claims are that Mary's status is not "exaggerated" by Rome. That claim is seen to be ludicrous in light of the Catechism, their standard of faith.
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 11/21/2009 6:47:32 AM >
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/21/2009 10:24:05 AM
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seekeratthesea
Posts: 30
Joined: 12/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
It's not worship and ex-catholics know it.
Praying to anyone other than God would be better defined as idolatry.
It's not worship OR idolotry and ex catholics know it. Switching from one false claim to another doesn't make EITHER one true.
_____________________________
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Elijah the Tishbite
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/21/2009 11:26:58 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 12133
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please keep this thread on the topic of praying to the saints and Mary.
The portions of the catechism that were posted belong in the Sinlessness thread.
And keep it civil.
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
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