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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/6/2008 1:04:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
This all comes down to the definition of prayer, which has already been posted here to have more then one meaning. Prayer (according to Webster) 1:earnest request 2:an addressing of a divinity. When I pray to the Saints and Mary my prayers to them fall into definition one a request for their prayers (see definition 2) to God. God condemned the prayers (as in definition 2 only) in Jer. When you pray to the saints and Mary it falls into the category of a spiritual practice - prayer - thereby making it a form of worship.
In Scripture, God condemns any prayer that is not to Him. When prayer was offered to any but Him it was condemned. There is not one instance of approved prayer to any but God.
When asked "how should we pray", Christ answered...."our Father". This is not a "suggestion" by Christ. If He declared it, it is a command. And, this command is being ignored and another substituted in its place.
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There is no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God - that is abundantly clear from Scripture. Now, pray to others because your church tells you it is permissable; but, never ever believe you have biblical support for doing so. We disagree on the interpretation of some scripture passages then.
There really is nothing to disagree on since no passages have been offered that could even remotely be considered evidence of engaging in the spiritual practice of praying to anyone but God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/6/2008 1:07:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
If a Christian brother were to ask another christian to "pray to" God for him, are you saying then that this christian brother is asking another christian to "worship" God for him?
The act of prayer is a form of worship. When this Christian brother prays to God, for WHATEVER reason, it is an act of worship.
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I hope you can clarify these things for all the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. who believe that the core, historical meaning of "pray" means "ask".
What you consistently fail to admit is that while in the act of prayer - a spiritual worshipful act - one usually does "ask" for something. But, that does not change the "core" aspect of prayer - worship.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/6/2008 6:51:18 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Hope that helps. I'll try that next time. I appreciate the help.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/7/2008 10:15:42 AM
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2Preacher
Posts: 85
Joined: 2/7/2008
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Dona Nobis Pacem:
quote:
The problem is with private interpretation.
Five people can read the same passages and come up with five different doctrines.
I understand your point concerning "private" interpretation. There are however many places in Scripture where NO INTERPRETATION is needed i.e. the Ten Commandments are very clear. "Thou shalt not steal", "thou shalt not commit adultery." etc. No interpretation needed. God said it that settles it.
Those areas where interpretation is needed, must be interpreted through prayerful comparison of SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE first. The question is "what does the Bible as a whole say" about the particular subject i.e. salvation, sanctification, etc. How does God himself define this issue? This practice, when done correctly and in humble submission to the Holy Spirits leading settles the issue. God does not ask us to "interpret" his Word, He only asks us to BELIEVE it and ACCEPT it by faith for what it is - His Word.
If further interpretation is needed as to meaning, such as in the area of prophecy etc. , the second step is comparison of ones interpretation with that of other trusted sources. In your case "trusted sources" would be the magisterium, the catechism, the early church fathers, etc. I am Baptist, so in my case, "trusted sources" would be commentaries such as those written by C.H. Spurgeon and the like and again COMPARE THE SECONDARY SOURCE (COMMENTARY) WITH SCRIPTURE in order to determine meaning.
One should never build a doctrine or belief on ONLY one passage or verse of Scripture by itself. We must take the Bible as a WHOLE and pay attention to the CONTEXT i.e. the who, what, why, when, and where questions of interpretation in order to determine meaning. MOST IMPORTANTLY, and I should have said it first, we must ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as we study the Scriptures. He is the Author of Scripture II Tim. 3:16-17.
"Private interpretations" occur because we humans like to believe that we are "right" even if others disagree. We like God to "agree with us rather than us agreeing with HIM." That being the case, we sometimes "twist" his Word, "dissect" his Word, "correct" his Word, and even "change" or "add to" his Word to fit OUR ideas of meaning. This is dangerous and misleading and is true "private" interpretation.
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The Church doesn't disapprove of people studying the Bible, it actually encourages people to study the scriptures.
If this is so, then why the inquisition? Why were men like Martin Luther, Zwingli, Tyndale, and countless others persecuted and even martyred? Why was it illegal during their time for a laymen to simply "own" a copy of the Word of God - the Bible?
The RCC certainly did not "encourage" people to study the Scriptures during that time. In fact, for any one other than the Church and her Priests to study and interpret the Scriptures was illegal and punishable by imprisonment and even death especially if the conclusions one came to believe were in conflict with the teachings of the Church.
I realize that the church today is "different" in some regards than the church during Martin Luther's time. No longer does she "criminalize" Bible ownership or study. Now she "actually encourages people to study the scriptures" BUT she discourages them from "thinking for themselves" by reserving the "right of interpretation of Scripture" to herself and her priests. Is this not the same thing she did during Luther's time only now she is less able to enforce it in most places?
Again, I realize that this is waaaaay off topic so I encourage you to respond by PM if you like. I don't mean to offend, although I know I probably have, I seek only the Truth and wish only to proclaim the same.
I am willing to listen to and consider your point of view, as I hope you will mine.
Peace to you,
2Preacher
"Only those who are dishonest discourage others from verifying what they say." Read I John 4:1,2
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/7/2008 11:19:15 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11589
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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Hi, 2Preacher, and welcome to the community!
As you have already noted, we are drifting far off the topic of Praying to the Saints and Mary.
HERE is a link to the Catholic Discussion Index. I am sure one of the threads will be appropriate for what you are wanting to talk about.
Thanks!
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/7/2008 6:45:44 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Mannamuncher - no one commented on your post #4176 7.29.08 - which covers the mandate set out by the church for RC's to adhere too - it's pretty clear about praying to the saints and Mary, as well as with regards to the power they attribute to Mary with regards to "salvation".
As you stated at the end of the post.....WOW!
[image][/image][image][/image]
Any comments????
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Pray TO Mary for indulgences:
Plenary Indulgence for the Solemnity of Mary's Immaculate Conception
Source Vatican City
Date 11/29/2005
"On this Solemnity, the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, when he renders public homage of praise to Mary Immaculate, has the heartfelt desire that the entire Church should join with him, so that all the faithful, united in the name of the common Mother, become ever stronger in the faith, adhere with greater devotion to Christ, and love their brothers with more fervent charity. From here--as Vatican Council II very wisely taught--arise works of mercy towards the needy, observance of justice, and the defense of and search for peace."
In the eighth century St. Germanus of Constantinople addressed Mary in these moving words: "Most chaste, good, and merciful Lady, strength of Christians ... shelter us under the wings of your loving-kindness. Intercede for us and protect us; win eternal life for us. You are the Christians' hope, and that hope will not be disappointed. ... Your favors are beyond counting. No one wins salvation except through you, Most Holy One; no one is freed from sin except through you. Who bestows such care upon mankind as you do in union with your only Son?"
WOW !!!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/7/2008 7:12:17 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Any comments???? Welcome to the site and to the forums...
Comments? Sure...
These sentences and thoughts are also quoted from the same letter:
"The Holy Spirit First - Mary Second"
"Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have one godhead, equal glory, and co-eternal majesty"
"The Catholic Church has always believed, moreover, that when the Holy Spirit intervened in a personal way (even though inseparably from the other Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity) in the work of man's salvation, he made the humble Virgin of Nazareth his associate in that work."
"It was the Holy Spirit who filled Mary with grace ... thus redeeming her ... in view of the merits of Christ, the Savior of mankind"
It just goes to show you that if one has chickens, one can choose to market either chicken poop or chicken soup. There are many agendas at work sometimes in human endeavors; there are those who wish to correct and dispel myth, and those who wish to perpetuate it for various reasons.
And we all are aware of what Scripture instructs us about "bearing false witness against thy neighbor..."
Everyone reading these posts has to decide who is pushing what here. Sometimes, it's not that easy to tell. Sometimes, it takes a little time, a little research, a little reflection. Its not always just as easy as reading what somebody posted and jumping right on-board with it, as if it were the Gospel Truth.
Again, welcome. We all look forward to your insights and observations.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/8/2008 1:25:43 AM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Any comments???? Welcome to the site and to the forums...
Comments? Sure...
These sentences and thoughts are also quoted from the same letter:
"The Holy Spirit First - Mary Second"
"Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have one godhead, equal glory, and co-eternal majesty"
"The Catholic Church has always believed, moreover, that when the Holy Spirit intervened in a personal way (even though inseparably from the other Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity) in the work of man's salvation, he made the humble Virgin of Nazareth his associate in that work."
"It was the Holy Spirit who filled Mary with grace ... thus redeeming her ... in view of the merits of Christ, the Savior of mankind"
It just goes to show you that if one has chickens, one can choose to market either chicken poop or chicken soup. There are many agendas at work sometimes in human endeavors; there are those who wish to correct and dispel myth, and those who wish to perpetuate it for various reasons.
Yes....as I read the complete letter, that understanding quickly became apparent to me. The letter can be found for viewing as posted by the Marian Library/International Marian Research Institute. Letter from Pope Paul V1 to Card.Leon Josef Suenens-International Marian Congress May 13,1975
And we all are aware of what Scripture instructs us about "bearing false witness against thy neighbor.
???????????? - sorry, lost me here
Everyone reading these posts has to decide who is pushing what here. Sometimes, it's not that easy to tell. Sometimes, it takes a little time, a little research, a little reflection. Its not always just as easy as reading what somebody posted and jumping right on-board with it, as if it were the Gospel Truth.
Again, yes, that became apparent as I did a little research and looked up and read and reflected on the "complete" letter.
Again, welcome. We all look forward to your insights and observations.
Well...it appears to me that the Pope was trying to "straddle-the-fence" a bit...addressing the Marian Congress and urging them to remember that devotion to the Holy Spirit is primary...Mary second....but then of course listing all the "special attributes" that have been accepted now with regards to Mary - her assumption, her work as Mediatrix - the belief that she's still active in the salvation of people....
however what I found really interesting - and a bit confusing - was where he tries to clarify the work of Mary...
Thus it is always in dependence on the Holy Spirit that Mary leads souls to Jesus, forms them in his image, inspires them with good counsel, and acts as a living bond of love between Jesus and the faithful.
I believe this is the express full time job of the Holy Spirit and always has been. But it is interesting to me to see that even the Pope felt it necessary to clarify that the Holy Spirit is the main character...making me come to the conclusion that perhaps he knew how dangerous and out of hand a doctrine of this nature can be.
It seemed to me that at this point he may have felt it necessary to draw back a bit and give the Marian supporters a bit of "air time", and felt it necessary to point out that some of the statements may be surprising, .....then quickly cushioning that remark by stating ...read on and you'll see what I mean...
By way of support for the reflections we have been offering, we may recall the testimony which the Fathers and Doctors of the Eastern Church, so exemplary in their faith and devotion to the Holy Spirit, have given to the faith and devotion of the Church to the Mother of Christ as Mediatrix of God's gifts. The statements of these writers may prove surprising, but they should upset no one, for they always presuppose, and at times explicitly affirm, (by these examples - not too often) the dependence of the Virgin's mediatorial activity on the activity of God's Spirit as its source. -
Thus, St. Ephraem, for example, exalts Mary in this unrestrained fashion: "Blessed is she who became the fountain of all blessings for the whole world,"(21) or, again: "Most holy Lady ... sole repository of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit."(22)
Holy Spirit at least got a mention here....
St. John Chrysostom summed up Mary's part in our salvation with this striking encomium: "A virgin drove us from paradise; through the intervention of another virgin we have recovered eternal life. As we were condemned through the sin of one virgin, so we have received our crowns through the merits of another virgin."(23)
and finally...the quote that was initally posted....
His statements are echoed in the eighth century by St. Germanus of Constantinople, who addressed (prayed to )Mary in these moving words: "Most chaste, good, and merciful Lady, strength of Christians ... shelter us under the wings of your loving-kindness. Intercede for us and protect us; win eternal life for us. You are the Christians' hope, and that hope will not be disappointed. ... Your favors are beyond counting. No one wins salvation except through you, Most Holy One; no one is freed from sin except through you. Who bestows such care upon mankind as you do in union with your only Son?" oh....Jesus gets a mention at the end.....
....and then he brings his letter to a conclusion.....
At the present time, so critical for the Church and the destiny of mankind, when the interior renewal of Christians and their reconciliation with God and each other are an absolute necessity if the Church is to "exist in Christ as a sacrament or sign and an instrument of intimate union with God and of the unity of the whole human race,"(26) the faithful must cultivate an outstanding devotion to the Spirit as the supreme source of love, unity, and peace. At the same time, however, and in harmony with this first devotion which draws ever new strength from the fire of the Divine Love, the faithful should also be deeply devoted to the great Mother of God who is Mother of the Church and incomparable model of love for God and our brothers.Jesus is a pretty good model of love for God and our brothers...don't you think....in fact, I'd say, incomparable.
.....that's what I mean about "straddling-the-fence"..... or maybe "covering all bases"....or maybe, as you yourself stated above,
'There are many agendas at work sometimes in human endeavours; there are those who wish to correct and dispel myth...and those who wish to perpetuate it for various reasons.'
And again...choosing you're own words - from above....chicken poop!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/9/2008 8:55:35 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
And again...choosing you're own words - from above....chicken poop! What is your answer to the following questions to one inquiring about Christian Faith:
- Could Mary have chosen not to bear Jesus? Was it Mary's freewill by which she accepted the role of mother of Jesus?
- Why would God put man on the critical path to man's Salvation? Or did He?
- If Mary had said "no", (presuming that you answered the first question "yes"), would God have found and prepared another, or would that have been the end of salvageability of man?
- Why did the plan for salvation and redemption required that The Redeemer be born of a woman? Isn't that plan pretty flawed, being fully dependent upon the one's to be redeemed to affect their own redemption?
- If your answer to the first question is "no", then is man really redeemable? So it takes an iron hand from God for men and women to make "right" decisions and for there to be justice?
Answer these for me, please. Use Scripture, if you like. Realize that if you can't answer them (or won't), you are telling your inquirer to go find a Christian faith that can.
Mine can - since the first century. Can yours?
quote:
Jesus is a pretty good model of love for God and our brothers...don't you think....in fact, I'd say, incomparable. Jesus is God. If you are saying that the only model that we have is God and we must become one too, then you are espousing the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Is this your intention - to lead us all to Salt Lake? The models of the Saints are examples (hundreds of them) of plain ol' folk, just like me, and just like you, cooperating with the grace of God to accomplish God's work and do God's actions. This is the model of Mary and the Saints for the faithful - ordinary folks (Mary was "ordinary folk") doing the extraordinary - by the action of Grace. Mary is the most complete example for us of cooperation of grace, this is what the letter said and you quoted in your post "Most holy Lady ... sole repository of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit." - this is recognizing the source of good (the graces of the Holy Spirit), and attributing the actions and choices of Mary to them.
Is that the part you are refering to as chicken poop? That God's grace acting in people is the source of the good in the people? Is that the part you are taking exception to?
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/9/2008 9:05:05 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/9/2008 10:37:25 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2318
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bonlee
Mannamuncher - no one commented on your post #4176 7.29.08 - which covers the mandate set out by the church for RC's to adhere too - it's pretty clear about praying to the saints and Mary, as well as with regards to the power they attribute to Mary with regards to "salvation".
As you stated at the end of the post.....WOW!
[image][/image][image][/image]
Any comments????
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Pray TO Mary for indulgences:
Plenary Indulgence for the Solemnity of Mary's Immaculate Conception
Source Vatican City
Date 11/29/2005
"On this Solemnity, the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, when he renders public homage of praise to Mary Immaculate, has the heartfelt desire that the entire Church should join with him, so that all the faithful, united in the name of the common Mother, become ever stronger in the faith, adhere with greater devotion to Christ, and love their brothers with more fervent charity. From here--as Vatican Council II very wisely taught--arise works of mercy towards the needy, observance of justice, and the defense of and search for peace."
In the eighth century St. Germanus of Constantinople addressed Mary in these moving words: "Most chaste, good, and merciful Lady, strength of Christians ... shelter us under the wings of your loving-kindness. Intercede for us and protect us; win eternal life for us. You are the Christians' hope, and that hope will not be disappointed. ... Your favors are beyond counting. No one wins salvation except through you, Most Holy One; no one is freed from sin except through you. Who bestows such care upon mankind as you do in union with your only Son?"
WOW !!!
Yeah, that surprise you ?
The RCC don't know that we know stuff ?
Or they just don't have a valid response ? 
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/9/2008 10:46:21 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2318
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
There really is nothing to disagree on since no passages have been offered that could even remotely be considered evidence of engaging in the spiritual practice of praying to anyone but God.
Yep, right yet again Mr. Kelman !!!
Jesus tells us the HOW TO & the WHO.
Also, The Bible gives us this as well:
Romans 8:26-27 (King James Version)
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
God has left clear instruction...
To deviate from that is imprudent.
Not to mention lack of efficacy.
The Spirit is plainly called INTERCESSOR !
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/9/2008 4:58:47 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
And again...choosing you're own words - from above....chicken poop! What is your answer to the following questions to one inquiring about Christian Faith:
- Could Mary have chosen not to bear Jesus? Was it Mary's freewill by which she accepted the role of mother of Jesus?
- Why would God put man on the critical path to man's Salvation? Or did He?
- If Mary had said "no", (presuming that you answered the first question "yes"), would God have found and prepared another, or would that have been the end of salvageability of man?
- Why did the plan for salvation and redemption required that The Redeemer be born of a woman? Isn't that plan pretty flawed, being fully dependent upon the one's to be redeemed to affect their own redemption?
- If your answer to the first question is "no", then is man really redeemable? So it takes an iron hand from God for men and women to make "right" decisions and for there to be justice?
Answer these for me, please. Use Scripture, if you like. Realize that if you can't answer them (or won't), you are telling your inquirer to go find a Christian faith that can.
Mine can - since the first century. Can yours?
quote:
Jesus is a pretty good model of love for God and our brothers...don't you think....in fact, I'd say, incomparable. Jesus is God. If you are saying that the only model that we have is God and we must become one too, then you are espousing the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Is this your intention - to lead us all to Salt Lake? The models of the Saints are examples (hundreds of them) of plain ol' folk, just like me, and just like you, cooperating with the grace of God to accomplish God's work and do God's actions. This is the model of Mary and the Saints for the faithful - ordinary folks (Mary was "ordinary folk") doing the extraordinary - by the action of Grace. Mary is the most complete example for us of cooperation of grace, this is what the letter said and you quoted in your post "Most holy Lady ... sole repository of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit." - this is recognizing the source of good (the graces of the Holy Spirit), and attributing the actions and choices of Mary to them.
Is that the part you are refering to as chicken poop? That God's grace acting in people is the source of the good in the people? Is that the part you are taking exception to?
Greetings Doghouse!
Thank you for your welcome, it was encouraging to see how open and responsive you were to my "insights and observations".
I tried to relay them as openly and honestly as possible - I apologize if this has offended you in anyway, but the format of online "forums" is new to me and I'm hopeful that as I participate in the discussions more, that my skills will improve. Especially the one where we go completely off the topic at hand.
However, in response to your welcoming post - the one just prior to this one - I thought I would also address some of the comments made therein - mainly referring to some of the other sentences and thoughts that you quoted from the letter the Pope had written - and also to your comment with regards to either making "chicken poop or chicken soup" according to whatever agenda one was following...that just begged for a response. I assumed you were getting the point across about picking and choosing and posting "portions" of articles that fit whatever agenda one wished to put forward - so I made sure to read the complete letter in question and then offered - as invited to do so - my "insights and observations" on the whole letter while at the same time, trying to stay focussed on the "topic" of "praying to Mary". ( so the moderator wouldn't ask me to move to another area ).
My final "insight and observation" of "chicken poop" is in reference to the Pope's whole letter and the "straddling-the-fence" impact it had on me as I read it through....and NOT to what you so desparately try to steer it towards.
However, since you brought it up, I will note here that while you may be in accordance with the quote of St.Ephraem as he "exalts Mary" in "unrestrained fashion" : "Blessed is she who became the fountain of all blessing for the whole world" or again, " Most holy Lady...sole respository of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit."
I simply do not.
As for my "Jesus as an incomparable model...." entry - and your hasty implication (which could be construed as "bearing false witness" - a reminder of your own from your first reply) - that I espouse the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - my reply is that while Jesus is God....He was also man....and by His incomparable love for God to whom He prayed and obeyed during His walk on this earth and by His incomparable love for us by giving His life so that we may have eternal life...that is why I say He - JESUS- is an incomparable model...the best one.
Again I apologize for my lack of skill here - hopefully it will improve as I go along - especially the "staying on topic" part.
I have taken up a lot of space and time with this response, however I will be happy to answer the other 5 questions in this forum if allowed - or is there another page to go too for that topic.
As far as "Salt Lake City" goes....never been there....have no desire to go there....my intention is to continue to speak up and give my "insights" and "observations" whenever I feel the need to do so.
God Bless!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/9/2008 5:37:04 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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Greetings Doghouse!
I'll take a chance here - and post with regards to the list of questions - so we can get back on topic about "praying"....
After reading your 5 main questions - I have simply 2 of my own in response:
Where did you get this list of questions?????
and
Why???????
In answer to your very last question - my "faith" is in tact (thank you for asking) it's based even prior to the first century.....in Jesus Christ.
John Ch.1 -
In the beginning ws the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2/The same was in the beginning with God.3/All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.4/In him was life; and the life was the light of man.5/And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.6/There was a man sent from God, whose name was Joh. 7/The same came for a witness, to bear witness of that Light, that all men through him might believe.8/ He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.9/That was the true Light, which lighteth every man, that cometh into the world.10/He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.ll/ He came unto his own, and his own received Him not. 12/But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13/Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14/And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. KJV
Thank you for suggesting I could use scripture if "I liked" - most gracious of you to do so. I sincerely mean that, I love the scriptures.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/10/2008 9:46:08 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I'll take a chance here - and post with regards to the list of questions - so we can get back on topic about "praying"....
After reading your 5 main questions - I have simply 2 of my own in response:
Where did you get this list of questions?????
and
Why???????
The thread here is about the communion of Saints and who is a member of this group. I find that by posing questions that might be posed of one inquiring about your faith as opposed to mine, that it forces one to ponder or consider how these inquiries would be answered.
In the questions I posed, it is fair game for a catechuman to ask if Mary had a choice in the matter of bearing God's Son, our Savior. Depending on how you would answer that query from your faith and its instruction, I would follow with additional questions, to lead you to the logical and Scripturally founded conclusion of Roman Catholics everywhere - Mary is the example of Christian obedience and charity. And as such, she is due an honor of a greater degree than my Saintly grandmother, as an example.
I made up the list of questions on my own on the spot as I was typing away, so they are a product of my fertile mind. I asked them because I have been asked these before by people considering coming into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and I was prepared to answer them. So, I am asking them of you to see how what you believe and what you have been instructed would be formulated into an answer for them.
As to why, I want to see what your answers are. Or if you can provide answers. If you expect me to abandon my life-long Roman Catholic Christianity and take up your...whatever it is... version of Christianity, then I am going to need to get some answers to some questions that I have about what you believe to be correct, to test the validity of it and to test your authority as one to lead me in defining my beliefs and what I accept to be contained within Scriptures.
That's all there is to it, really.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/10/2008 9:52:50 AM >
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/10/2008 5:13:29 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
I'll take a chance here - and post with regards to the list of questions - so we can get back on topic about "praying"....
After reading your 5 main questions - I have simply 2 of my own in response:
Where did you get this list of questions?????
and
Why???????
The thread here is about the communion of Saints and who is a member of this group. I find that by posing questions that might be posed of one inquiring about your faith as opposed to mine, that it forces one to ponder or consider how these inquiries would be answered.
In the questions I posed, it is fair game for a catechuman to ask if Mary had a choice in the matter of bearing God's Son, our Savior. Depending on how you would answer that query from your faith and its instruction, I would follow with additional questions, to lead you to the logical and Scripturally founded conclusion of Roman Catholics everywhere - Mary is the example of Christian obedience and charity. And as such, she is due an honor of a greater degree than my Saintly grandmother, as an example.
I made up the list of questions on my own on the spot as I was typing away, so they are a product of my fertile mind. I asked them because I have been asked these before by people considering coming into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and I was prepared to answer them. So, I am asking them of you to see how what you believe and what you have been instructed would be formulated into an answer for them.
Bonlee
(well you see...this is the problem....these are your questions, based on how youwould go about trying to convert (?) a catechuman to Roman Catholic beliefs...I would never entertain such a thought myself...so I wouldn't bother asking them at all...)
As to why, I want to see what your answers are. Or if you can provide answers. If you expect me to abandon my life-long Roman Catholic Christianity and take up your...whatever it is... version of Christianity, then I am going to need to get some answers to some questions that I have about what you believe to be correct, to test the validity of it and to test your authority as one to lead me in defining my beliefs and what I accept to be contained within Scriptures.
Bonlee
When I first read this, I thought you meant that I had stated somewhere or gave you the impression in one of my posts that I was trying to lure you away from your life-long Roman Catholic Christianity - but then that simply didn't make any sense, as that's never happened....then I realized you were continuing your train of thought from the previous paragraphs...as to how I would formulate what I believe into answers to these questions if they were posed to me....)
That's all there is to it, really.
Thank you Doghouse for your response....I had to stop and look up the word "catechuman" before I could reply...and having done so, feel certain that I don't actually fit into this category, having not actually asked any questions of you with regards to your faith....rather I posted my insights and observations, as welcomed to do, with regards to a letter written by the Pope.
Then I replied to your response clarifying any misconceptions that may have arisen from some of your entries.
The first thing I would do if a life-long practicing Roman Catholic Christian came to me and wanted answers to the questions you posed, would be to set the questions aside and bow and pray with them, asking God, in Jesus' name, to reveal His truth to us, through His word, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then we'd go through the gospels together - trusting and believing - that He will lead us, guide us and by His grace and mercy and love, will turn our hearts and minds and spirits in the direction of where His will wants us to focus in all things, including prayer .....on Him.
(wasn't sure if I could do it - but I think I was able to steer back to the forum topic "Praying to the Saints & Mary?")
Eph.6 V14 - 17
14/Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;15/And your feet shod wit the preparation of the gospel of peace;16/Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.17/And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God..... KJV
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/11/2008 7:01:03 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 909
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Then we'd go through the gospels together - trusting and believing - that He will lead us, guide us and by His grace and mercy and love, will turn our hearts and minds and spirits in the direction of where His will wants us to focus in all things, including prayer .....on Him. So...are you saying you can't answer my question, or that you won't answer my question?
quote:
Thank you Doghouse for your response....I had to stop and look up the word "catechuman" before I could reply...and having done so, feel certain that I don't actually fit into this category, having not actually asked any questions of you with regards to your faith....rather I posted my insights and observations, as welcomed to do, with regards to a letter written by the Pope. I am not talking about me converting you...I am talking about you converting me. If you feel my faith to be in error, and that your's holds the truth, then I have just asked you a question by which you can demonstrate the depth and fullness of your faith. A catechuman is one who is investigating and querying the aspects of faith - this includes one who is thinking of accepting and following yours.
Simply telling me that I'm wrong and you're right simply because I am Roman Catholic and the Holy Spirit has lead you to the truth is not going to cut it.
From my perspective, the Holy Spirit has been responsible for guarding the Catholic Church for 2,000 years and making this resource available to all of us for the development and practice of our faith (in spite of the flawed humans running it), and that those who do not avail themselves of this God-given resource are abandoning that which the Holy Spirit has helped Jesus Himself give to all of us.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/11/2008 7:13:38 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/11/2008 1:56:46 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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Doghouse
quote:
I made up the list of questions on my own on the spot as I was typing away, so they are a product of my fertile mind. I asked them because I have been asked these before by people considering coming into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and I was prepared to answer them. So, I am asking them of you to see how what you believe and what you have been instructed would be formulated into an answer for them.
Bonlee
(well you see...this is the problem....these are your questions, based on how you would go about trying to convert (?) a catechuman to Roman Catholic beliefs...I would never entertain such a thought myself...so I wouldn't bother asking them at all...)
Doghouse:
I am not talking about me converting you...I am talking about you converting me. If you feel my faith to be in error, and that your's holds the truth, then I have just asked you a question by which you can demonstrate the depth and fullness of your faith. A catechuman is one who is investigating and querying the aspects of faith - this includes one who is thinking of accepting and following yours.
[b]Bonlee: I don't "expect" you to abandon your life-long Roman Catholic Christianity and have never even suggested or implied such a thing to you....I live in "hope" and in "faith" that God is now and will continue to complete His work of grace in you...and me... and all of my RC friends, bringing us all to His "version of Christianity".
Simply telling me that I'm wrong and you're right simply because I am Roman Catholic and the Holy Spirit has lead you to the truth is not going to cut it.
Bonlee: I don't believe I actually said that. What I did say was:
The first thing I would do if a life-long practicing Roman Catholic Christian came to me and wanted answers to the questions you posed, would be to set the questions aside and bow and pray with them, asking God, in Jesus' name, to reveal His truth to us, through His word, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then we'd go through the gospels together - trusting and believing - that He will lead us, guide us and by His grace and mercy and love, will turn our hearts and minds and spirits in the direction of where His will wants us to focus in all things, including prayer .....on Him.
It is not within my power (or anyone elses for that matter) ...to convert anyone....be it from - or - to an institution such as the RCChurch or any other denomination....that is God's domain.....but by the grace and power of God it is within my limited ability...all of our limited abilities as "believers", to present to enquiring people the best source of truth........His word...inspired by the Holy Spirit and as powerful as a "two edged sword".
Doghouse:
From my perspective, the Holy Spirit has been responsible for guarding the Catholic Church for 2,000 years ( which is an understandable perspective as this is what you have been taught by the Catholic [i]Church ) and making this resource available to all of us for the development and practice of our faith (in spite of the flawed humans running it), and that those who do not avail themselves of this God-given resource are abandoning that which the Holy Spirit has helped Jesus Himself give to all of us. (again - this is what you've been taught, and by who(m?) - by the "flawed humans running it").
Bonlee:
[b]From my perspective, the Holy Spirit has been responsible for the "church" from what Paul states in his epistle to the all the "ordinary" Ephesian believers.
Eph. Ch. 1 V11 - 13
11/In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12/ That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13/ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
-and-
V.16 - 23:
16/Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;17/ That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18/ The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. 19/And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20/ which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places. 21/ Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22/ And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church. 23/ WHICH IS HIS BODY, THE FULNESS OF HIM THAT FILLETH ALL IN ALL.[/color]
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/11/2008 2:06:17 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 28
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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Moderator - I apologize....the "topic of the forum" seems to have been lost...so to that last post I will add.....
......and this is why I believe that prayer should not be addressed to the Saints or Mary, as it states in the scripture in my last post and a portion copied here below....
20/ which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places. 21/ Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.....
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