|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 10:54:15 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 549
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Zhi,
quote:
Well, do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit is available to all believers? I believe He is, as it is indicated in the Scriptures. I would therefore assume that the Holy Spirit is doing what Jesus revealed to be the Holy Spirit's job, as comforter, and guide, for all believers.
Obviously, friend, the Spirit is not leading all "believers" into all truth. If He was, there wouldn't be so many threads here.
quote:
Basically if you refuse to accept that anyone outside of the Lord's Supper could be guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth, then your Popes are in trouble too, aren't they?
There you go confusing threads again, but no....Christ established a Church with leaders who passed their authority on to their successors. He did not command the Apostles to write a book, nor did He promise the masses that the Spirit would guide them "in all truth." His promise was to His chosen Apostles. Once again, you are off topic.
quote:
My point is that if we're allowed to use extra-scriptural revelations to teach us things that Scripture does not teach about our religion, then there's a whole host of religions that claim to use the Bible as a holy book in some sense (holding it, of course, slightly lesser to their own special spiritual revelations), and I listed a few. So, as such, I am not particularly impressed when the "reference proof" of spiritual truths given is random Catholic commentaries that have basically no Scriptural backing.
Then I wonder why you are participating in the "Catholic discussions" here? If you are not willing to examine Catholic sources to gain insight into Catholic doctrine, you're just venting and blowing hot air against something you admit you refuse to investigate and don't understand.
quote:
We know whether doctrines are true or not by whether or not God has said in His Word that they are true.
Who is "we," I wonder? And right, "we know" because Christ promised Zhi and those who think like her that He would lead her and them "unto all truth as He promised His Apostles in John 16:13. Amazing...
Peace of Christ,
gatolover
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 12:06:55 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1184
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Obviously, friend, the Spirit is not leading all "believers" into all truth. If He was, there wouldn't be so many threads here.
Of course He is. Whether or not they listen is another matter entirely. And, a lot of threads involve a matter of preference, not doctrine.
quote:
There you go confusing threads again, but no....Christ established a Church with leaders who passed their authority on to their successors. He did not command the Apostles to write a book, nor did He promise the masses that the Spirit would guide them "in all truth." His promise was to His chosen Apostles. Once again, you are off topic.
So were the apostles disobedient in writing a book?
It's amazing to me how you can take a statement made directly to John and use it to say that Mary is the mother of us all, but you refuse to accept that a statement made to everyone in the general vicinity, giving a specific job description of the Holy Spirit who is demonstrably given to all believers, can mean "everyone". Let's look at more of the speech... was Jesus talking only to His disciples when He said He is going to prepare a place in Heaven? Is He talking only to the disciples when He says "No one comes unto the Father except through Me"? There is SO MUCH of our Christian doctrine that comes out of that upper room discussion. If all of it only applies to the disciples, then there's not a whole lot left for us.
quote:
Then I wonder why you are participating in the "Catholic discussions" here? If you are not willing to examine Catholic sources to gain insight into Catholic doctrine, you're just venting and blowing hot air against something you admit you refuse to investigate and don't understand.
The topic does not say "Catholics only". The topic is about whether or not praying to the saints and Mary is a valid practice. I say no. I will be happy to examine your sources when they are reasonable sources, but random stuff extolling the virtues of Mary when the very basis of the commentary is not Biblical is pointless.
quote:
Who is "we," I wonder? And right, "we know" because Christ promised Zhi and those who think like her that He would lead her and them "unto all truth as He promised His Apostles in John 16:13. Amazing...
"We", obviously, is whoever is trying to discern whether or not a given doctrine is Scriptural.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 12:28:17 AM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 80
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Gatolover :
I apologize for my rambling and "unloading" everything at once. As I stated in my earlier post and Doghouse pointed out, I am not a student of Catholicism. I do not wish to argue with anyone and will consider our point on whatever issues you raise. Please forgive my rambunctious nature.
I really meant no offense.
I use the KJV because I trust the KJV to be what it is - the Word of God. If I had been raised reading the Rheims-Douay or some other version, I would quote that version. If I am wrong for this, God will judge. I could quote Greek and Hebrew texts if you like? ( just kidding, but I could do it)
Doghouse:
I appreciate your candor. I don't feel quite as "beaten up" this time. I accept your challenge to check the Catholic Catechism.
You inadvertently backed up one of my views, did you realize it. The comment I made was about "most catholics being totally ignorant of what the Bible teaches". Your comment in reply was that "Catholics are instructed by the Church through a number of means, the least of which is self-discernment of the Bible." I wonder why this is the case? If one wishes to learn about God, Salvation, Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell, what better place to gain the truth than from the Word of God himself - the Bible!! Why would the church disapprove of people studying the Bible for themselves?
Our differences are seen here. Where you place emphasis on the teachings of the church, the saints, the "magisterium", I place the emphasis on the Scriptures alone as the written word of the Almighty. In my mind, that is what supersedes all the traditions of men. It is a difference of opinion and practice.
I will probably not return to this forum. I don't feel that I belong here and it is not beneficial to argue. We must agree to disagree. I will consider your thoughts on my posts. As I said before, I believe that you are sincere in your beliefs, as am I. It is doubtful whether either of us will change, so why butt heads. It only gives you a headache.
Peace to you.
2Preacher
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 4:38:21 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3747
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
To be honest yes I can say it was Marys intercession, which helped me. However it was Jesus/God who answered Mary's prayers on my behalf.
It's interesting that even though it was in opposition to the Word of God brought by the prophet Jeremiah, this is the exact answer given by those in Jeremiah 44:17. They insisted they would continue to "pray TO" the queen of heaven because their prayers were answered.
And God responded with this condemnation:
"So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed;...Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good:...shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs...that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:"
The difference being I give Mary credit for only her intercessory help, God answers the her, as was done at the wedding at Cana for example.
Pax
No matter who gets the "credit" the point is the similarity between saying you get your answers through Mary, therefore, you will continue the practice. This is exactly the same answer as those in Jer 44:17....when they pray to the "queen of heaven" their prayers are answered so they insist they will continue the practice regardless of the Word of God to the contrary.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 5:06:53 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3747
Status: offline
|
quote:
FYI, over 70K people at Fatima witnessed a miraculous event. So there is evidence if you care to look. As with any topic such as ghosts, if one is just going to refuse to look then you could still very well believe the earth is flat. And a lot more than that believe in alien space creatures and there's enough who even think they've been "beamed up". They even provide "evidence". So, your anecdotal "evidence" proves nothing. Besides, it should always be remembered that Satan has the ability to perform signs and wonders.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
quote:
And as we have done on numerous times you would just dismiss Catholic scriptural references because it doesn't jive with your own personal interpretation. Even when supposedly agreed upon rules of interpretation are used more often then not (Peter vs rock for example) people still find a way to dismiss it. Well, then we can be in the good company of many ECFs who didn't believe Peter was the rock Christ spoke about. And of those who did believe he was, many did not believe it offered him any more authority than the other Apostles.
quote:
By this do you mean we are only to say the Our Father? Which version btw? Do we kneel or stand? Can we sing it? Is that ok? Can you only pray to the Father? How about the Holy Spirit? Does He specifically prohibit other types of prayer? Do you see even ONE prayer to anyone but God in all of the 66 books of the Bible?....you do not. And, for good reason, prayer is worship and only God is to be worshipped. He declares that He will not share His glory with any other.
quote:
He even talked to dead guys--Moses/Elijha--so He must have forgot that was prohibited. Do you even realize this "He" is God Almighty?....and He may speak to whomever He pleases? He may even speak to and command the dry bones to live. When you can do that, you get to speak to the spirits of "dead guys".
quote:
So even these simple things are not as simply as you would like to make them appear. Oh, they're simple all right once you get past RC's attempts to obfuscate the clear scriptural commands. God gives very clear and simple commands as to whom we may pray. There is not the slightest ambiguity in this regard. That's why it's so amazing that this practice not only survives but flourishes.
quote:
So as a fallible human I approach scripture with a healthy dose of fear and trepidation so I don't run off the rails and just read one passage and make up some new doctrine which is not what the author intended. Why not?...your church has been doing that for centuries. So, it's obvious who's run "off the rails". They see "fire" and say, yeah, we can use that one for purgatory. They see "Mary, full of grace" and they say yeah we can use that one for our obsession of elevating Mary to the Godhead - we'll just declare her without sin.
As for praying to saints and Mary, they don't see anything; but, that doesn't stop them from contriving a whole legion of liturgies built around what God has clearly demonstrated to be against His will.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 5:10:57 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3747
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
But if the RCC teaches that a RC "saint"
can assist a RC while here on earth, of
course the well meaning RC will solicit
help from these other RC who have been
declared to be beneficial by the RCC.
This is what is so sad. You have an arrogant hierarchy bound and determined to follow errors begun centuries ago instead of humbly accepting the Word of God.
quote:
12 The mission of reconciliation is proper to the whole church, also and especially to that church which has already been admitted to the full sharing in divine glory with the Virgin Mary, the angels and the saints, who contemplate and adore the thrice-holy God The church in heaven, the-church on earth and the church in purgatory are mysteriously united in this cooperation with Christ in reconciling the world to God. RC demonstrates its disdain for Scripture as it disgards it in favor of their own personal desires. Scripture says only Jesus Christ can reconcile; and He grants believers ON EARTH the privilege of "cooperating" with Him by means of spreading the Gospel.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 6:51:45 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 911
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
"Catholics are instructed by the Church through a number of means, the least of which is self-discernment of the Bible." I wonder why This is the case? It is because so many are not properly equipped for this task. The ones that are are blessings to the rest of us, and we should yield to the knowledge, skill and gifts of those to assist us with that task, and we can then provide for them those things that we are truly good at. I accept the assistance of my brothers and sisters in Christ who are blessed with those skills and gifts of discernment. And I provide for them those things with which I am blessed and skilled (namely, my financial support of the Church through charitable contributions to her and her causes).
quote:
If one wishes to learn about God, Salvation, Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell, what better place to gain the truth than from the Word of God himself - the Bible!! Why would the Church disapprove of people studying the Bible for themselves? The Roman Catholic Church encourages those who wish to be familiar with Scriptures and the source of the faith instructed by her. However, Catholics are not allowed to define and discern faith - This is the authority and role of the Church (see my signature).
quote:
I place the emphasis on the Scriptures alone as the written word of the Almighty. In my mind, that is what supersedes all the traditions of men. It is a difference of opinion and practice. You didn't answer my question about "interpretation". You statement assumes that if three people read Scriptures, they will all discern the same meaning. This isn't the case - This is why we were left with a ministry and a Church - to preserve, guard and defend the deposit of faith and to spread it. In this way, the interpretation of the revelation of faith and its instruction comes from one place - you don't have every Tom, Dick and Harry out there running around coming up with their own take. If you say this doesn't happen, all I have to say back is Jimmy Swaggert, Benny Hinn and Joyce Meyers to make my point. These folks are an example of self-proclaimed authority of a self-discernment.
This discussion has gotten totally off-topic.
quote:
I will probably not return to this forum. I don't feel that I belong here and it is not beneficial to argue. Nobody should be here to argue, but to learn. You came in here asserting some "facts" which you are now pondering. In your deliberations, you will emerge a better evangelizer - you will be more effective in discussing what you disagree with in the Roman Catholic instruction of faith, because you will be more familiar with what is actually taught, and how this teaching is justified in Scriptures, and how you might convince someone of the error that you believe resides within. Before, you might just tell someone that they believe something (which they don't actually believe), and then evangelize against that.
And you would either get dismissed or you would get what you got in the last couple of posts. If you stick around and stick to the topic of the thread, I can educate you on what we Catholics believe, and why, and by what authority (Scriptural - Deposit of Faith stuff...). And you can educate me as to why you believe what I believe is in error. But first - you have to understand just what it is I believe, and why. And I have to consider your reaction to what I say. I have to check it against the Catechism, and Catechism against Scriptures.
Both of us may very well come away from that discussion better off than when we entered it.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/1/2008 7:07:30 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 8:44:10 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 307
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
The difference being I give Mary credit for only her intercessory help, God answers the her, as was done at the wedding at Cana for example.
Pax
No matter who gets the "credit" the point is the similarity between saying you get your answers through Mary, therefore, you will continue the practice. This is exactly the same answer as those in Jer 44:17....when they pray to the "queen of heaven" their prayers are answered so they insist they will continue the practice regardless of the Word of God to the contrary.
Kelman,
You are assuming that the only reason why I pray to the saints/mary is because I get the response I want. In my example to Zhi I did but this is not always the case. I pray to the saints/mary because of the scripture I and others have previously posted. The outcome "the answers" are always through God.
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 8:46:35 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
Now you can worship Mary on your fridge
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 9:59:36 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 307
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Now you can worship Mary on your fridge
Soxfan - I give you credit for finding the most interesting things on the Internet!
The fridge magnets of Mary are sold by Blue Q Corporation a novelty shop. I was going to post a link to show some of the other magnet sets they have but then changed my mind, lets just say they pretty much have something to offend anyone. These magnets are not being marketed to Catholics by Catholic companies, and the Catholic League has spoken out against them.
All that said thanks for posting a interesting "NO WAY" post this morning!
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 10:54:42 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Now you can worship Mary on your fridge
Soxfan - I give you credit for finding the most interesting things on the Internet!
The fridge magnets of Mary are sold by Blue Q Corporation a novelty shop. I was going to post a link to show some of the other magnet sets they have but then changed my mind, lets just say they pretty much have something to offend anyone. These magnets are not being marketed to Catholics by Catholic companies, and the Catholic League has spoken out against them.
All that said thanks for posting a interesting "NO WAY" post this morning!
Pax,
Mary
I enjoy that site. They have an entire section devoted to the various "Jesus Junk" that people try to sell to Christians
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 11:05:16 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 307
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Now you can worship Mary on your fridge
Soxfan - I give you credit for finding the most interesting things on the Internet!
The fridge magnets of Mary are sold by Blue Q Corporation a novelty shop. I was going to post a link to show some of the other magnet sets they have but then changed my mind, lets just say they pretty much have something to offend anyone. These magnets are not being marketed to Catholics by Catholic companies, and the Catholic League has spoken out against them.
All that said thanks for posting a interesting "NO WAY" post this morning!
Pax,
Mary
I enjoy that site. They have an entire section devoted to the various "Jesus Junk" that people try to sell to Christians
So you knew that this site was full of it and you still posted the mary stuff like tons of people would want it. Or did you mean it to be silly, maybe I just don't get your sense of humor  ?
Actually I spent WAY to much time this morning looking at Blue Q, the 1st few magnet sets I looked at were interesting but then they changed to just silly and much less offensive. I didn't see the "Jesus Junk" now I have to go back and look!
Have a good one!
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 12:11:28 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 80
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Doghouse:
My friend, once again you have answered my comments with candor. I appreciate it very much. You have given me much to consider.
To answer your question about "interpretation" the Scriptures teach us that believers have the Holy Spirit of God within them. Jesus himself taught this in John 14and 16 when he was discussing his going away with the disciples. He promised them a "Comforter" from God the Father who would be "with them" and abide "in" them. One who would remind them, teach them, convict them and guide them into "all truth" (John 14:16-17, 26; 16:7-15).
Yes we are to honor those who teach us the word of God as you say because they are given the gift of discernment and knowledge, BUT we are NOT to rely totally on their teaching for our education in doctrine and belief. II Timothy 2:15 states that each believer is responsible to study for himself. Yes, Timothy was a young minister under the great apostle Paul, but the injunction is written to ALL believers. Paul wrote, "STUDY to show THYSELF approved unto God, a WORKMEN that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
God has granted to his church to have many great men as teachers. Men who were completely devoted to the study and interpretation of his Word. These should be revered. Their writings read. Their sermons preached. Their thoughts and guidance heeded. We should trust them because they, as God said of Moses, stand in the stead (place) of God. "And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God." (Exodus 4:10-16) Ministers stand in the "stead of God" when they are preaching his Word.
If something that I believe as an individual does not line up with what my minister teaches or preaches, then I must question MY INTERPRETATION FIRST to see if it lines up with SCRIPTURE. If it does, then I can rest assured that it is RIGHT, God's Word is ALWAYS RIGHT. If my interpretation does not line up with Scripture as I rethink it taking into consideration what my pastor has taught. Then I must correct my view or go and discuss the matter with my minister to obtain a clearer understanding of the Scriptures.
We must remember that though they stand "in the stead of God" those to whom we grant honor and reverence as his ministers are in fact only human beings. They are fallible. ONLY THE WORD OF GOD ITSELF IS INFALLIBLE. In the end, when all other things have been weighed out and found wanting, ONLY the Word of God will be used to judge us, not the teachings of the church or of other men. This is why it is so utterly important for us to "STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD A WORKMEN THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH."
Yes, God has given us teachers, preachers, the church, the 'magisterium' to help us understand his Word. BUT he has also given us the Holy Spirit within who teaches us personally as we read and study his Word for ourselves as commanded. Too many people, as I previously stated, rely ONLY on other men for their knowledge of the Word and its meaning when we need to read and study it for ourselves. Read Psalm 119 and see David's perspective on the Word. Read the instructions of Paul to young Timothy and others in the prison epistles. Read the injunctions of Christ regarding the Word of God to his disciples. Each and every one emphasize's the INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY OF BELIEVERS TO READ AND STUDY THE WORD OF GOD FOR THEMSELVES.
Paul wrote of the Bereans that they "received the word (as preached by Paul and Silas)with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily (studied the Scriptures for themselves), whether those things were so.(to find out whether the things they were hearing from Paul and Silas were true)". (Acts 17:11) Can you imagine anyone questioning St. Paul's word? The Bereans did! They sought to verify what was being told to them by studying the Word of God - in their case the old testament which most likely was all they had in written form. May God help us to be like those Berean Christians.
I am not a fan of "bible teachers" such as Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, etc. either Doghouse. For the most part I have found them to be way off base when it comes to the teachings of Scripture. I agree that one should stick to the teachings of his / her particular church. I agree that we should listen to and respect those who "discern" the Scriptures and preach them to us. But, as stated before, I also believe that each of us is responsible before God to weigh everything we are taught, no matter who the teacher is, against the word of God. HOW CAN WE DO THAT IF WE DO NOT STUDY THE WORD OF GOD FOR OURSELVES?
Only those who are dishonest discourage others from verifying what they say. We are commanded "¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (test) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (I John 4:1-3)
I know that Catholics would not disagree with the last half of this statement, but the first half is what I am interested in. We "try" or test "the spirits" by the Word of God. How can we do this if we don't know the word of God for ourselves?
I realize that this is waaaaaay off topic, but YOU did ask. Sorry if I have over done it. Respond by PM if you like. We can talk further there if you wish and won't be taking up so much space here with "off topic" items.
Thanks again for your candor.
2Preacher 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/1/2008 5:12:48 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 911
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Now you can worship Mary on your fridge LOL!!!
The perfect stocking stuffer for Christmas.
Thanks for the heads-up man.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/4/2008 1:22:54 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3747
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
"Catholics are instructed by the Church through a number of means, the least of which is self-discernment of the Bible." I wonder why This is the case? It is because so many are not properly equipped for this task. Hmm, God appears to think differently since He has commanded man to meditate upon Scripture - not to meditate upon someone's authoritative interpretation of it. The Bereans knew they were to compare everything to the Word of God - they didn't leave it to the Pharisees and scribes to do what God commanded they themselves to do.
Those who follow the "little people" method of religion miss out on the most important part of Scripture - that of the Holy Spirit. While intellectual ability certainly plays its part, it should never be forgotten that the study of Scripture is first and foremost a spiritual endeavor.
It is possible, very possible, that the most brilliant intellect, versed in Hebrew and Greek can miss truth by a mile. In fact, many of these great intellects don't believe "all" Scripture is from God. They address the Bible as if it were simply another secular book.
While the one of more modest intellect, who humbly comes to the Word of God with the prayer "teach me Lord", is often blessed with God's truth. This one understands Scripture is God speaking to him. He also recognizes that all Scripture comes from the mouth of God and is true and trustworthy.
Come this way to Scripture and God just may bless us by opening our eyes to see the truths set forth on its pages.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/4/2008 1:27:01 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3747
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
The difference being I give Mary credit for only her intercessory help, God answers the her, as was done at the wedding at Cana for example.
Pax
No matter who gets the "credit" the point is the similarity between saying you get your answers through Mary, therefore, you will continue the practice. This is exactly the same answer as those in Jer 44:17....when they pray to the "queen of heaven" their prayers are answered so they insist they will continue the practice regardless of the Word of God to the contrary.
Kelman,
You are assuming that the only reason why I pray to the saints/mary is because I get the response I want. In my example to Zhi I did but this is not always the case. No, I'm not assuming anything. I was simply pointing out that Jer 44 gives the same reason for praying to someone other than God....they did so because it worked. And, God condemned them for this practice.
quote:
I pray to the saints/mary because of the scripture I and others have previously posted. The outcome "the answers" are always through God. There is no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God - that is abundantly clear from Scripture. Now, pray to others because your church tells you it is permissable; but, never ever believe you have biblical support for doing so.
Christ taught us specifically how and to whom we must pray. There is only one scriptural response to those who bring a different message than the one He brings.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/4/2008 9:42:51 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 307
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, I'm not assuming anything. I was simply pointing out that Jer 44 gives the same reason for praying to someone other than God....they did so because it worked. And, God condemned them for this practice.
Kelman,
This all comes down to the definition of prayer, which has already been posted here to have more then one meaning. Prayer (according to Webster) 1:earnest request 2:an addressing of a divinity. When I pray to the Saints and Mary my prayers to them fall into definition one a request for their prayers (see definition 2) to God. God condemned the prayers (as in definition 2 only) in Jer.
quote:
There is no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God - that is abundantly clear from Scripture. Now, pray to others because your church tells you it is permissable; but, never ever believe you have biblical support for doing so.
We disagree on the interpretation of some scripture passages then.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/4/2008 11:34:18 AM
|
|
|
onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
You are still asserting that "to pray" means "to worship". Perhaps you are not aware of what it is exactly you're doing? You "pray TO" saints. The RC practice has nothing to do with asking a fellow living Christian "TO pray" for them.
If I ask a friend to pray for me, I am not engaged in a spiritual activity nor am I "praying TO" that friend.
Attempts by RC to obfuscate what is essentially a very clear line between asking a friend to pray and "praying TO" a spirit being, for whatever reason, is proof enough of RC's unbiblical practice.
And yes indeed, "praying TO" a spirit is definitely a form of worship.
Hello kelman,
Since you are definitely saying that "praying TO" a spirit is definitely a form of worship.
Allow me to ask you the following questions again since you did not answer them before and I also do not think they are difficult questions for you to answer:
If a Christian brother were to ask another christian to "pray to" God for him, are you saying then that this christian brother is asking another christian to "worship" God for him?
Since you deny that "to pray" means "to ask", are you saying then that when christians ask other christians to "pray to" God for them they are actually asking these other people to "worship" God for them?
Are christians allowed to request someone else to worship God for them? Can you justify that?
Isn't it true that when a christian will ask another christian to "pray to" God for them, they are actually requesting the other christian to "ask" God for help for whatever are their intentions?
Allow me to ask another simple question for you:
When christians make statements saying "God answered their prayers." What do they mean by prayers in that statement? Doesn't prayers mean something which they asked or requested from God?
I hope you can clarify these things for all the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. who believe that the core, historical meaning of "pray" means "ask".
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/4/2008 3:52:35 PM
|
|
|
txtruthseeker
Posts: 2
Joined: 7/2/2008
Status: offline
|
Did anyone stop to consider that in John 3:13, that Jesus said "no one has acended to heaven except He that decended".
We are taught to use reasoning, so, what would the point be for resurrection if everyone who died was in heaven already???
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/4/2008 10:22:50 PM
|
|
|
Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 138
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
|
quote:
Why would the church disapprove of people studying the Bible for themselves?
The Church doesn't disapprove of people studying the Bible, it actually encourages people to study the scriptures.
The problem is with priv | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
