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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 5:42:51 PM
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Zhi
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I'm fine with saying that Mary is blessed among women, because the Bible says she is. *shrug*
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 6:22:07 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 298
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Well we agree that she is blessed.
For me, her being blessed and that all generations should call her blessed, and the passages that tell me she or any saint will intercede for me, is enough to understand that words like helper, refuge, and comfort are very much in line with scripture.
Pax, and good night
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 6:29:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Simple question...
Why can't Catholic asked people on earth to pray for them like they do those in heaven? If it's God doing it as I was told why can't it take place here on earth as it does in heaven?
John
John,
Catholics can and do ask people on earth to pray for them and we as Catholics pray for others as well. And it can take place here on earth like it does in heaven. I don't think you will find a Catholic who isn't grateful for the prayers of their family, friends and strangers. Each mass we pray as a community for many intentions of our parish, and world, and often publish prayer requests in church bulletins and newsletters. We Pray and we want others to pray for us, those on earth and in heaven.
Pax,
Mary
I guess I am not making myself clear...
I would like to know why people on earth cannot ask those on earth to pray for them like they ask those alleged to be heaven to pray for them...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 8:00:55 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 547
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Zhi,
You wrote:
quote:
Jesus said "behold your mother" to John, and John alone. Not to the other disciples. Not to the other believers.
I just wanted to point out that I find it ironic that you prefer to interpret the referenced passage in such a way after I've seen so many non-Catholic Christians take John 16:13 as being personally spoken to them and a license to presume they are correct in every aspect of their biblical interpretation. For those who are unaware, the verse is [red-letter in the KJV, I expect?]:
"But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth."
I can't tell you how many times that verse has been thrown around by those who clearly do not adhere to the ancient faith. Why isn't that verse understood in context as being spoken to those who were in attendance at the Last Supper? I wonder what your stand is on that particular verse. Do you also recognize our Lord was speaking to those gathered in His Presence at that particular time, or do you believe this is a promise to all "believers" everywhere in every time?
Appreciate your thoughts.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 8:17:57 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 547
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Zhi,
You wrote: quote:
Why should I read a bunch of unscriptural propaganda? You might as well encourage me to "examine both sides" for Mormonism or Christian Science or Islam or any number of other religions.
I forgive you for the offensive comparison to Mormonism, Christian Science, and Islam, BTW. Whether you consider Catholicism "unscriptural" or not, if you choose to participate in a "Catholic discussion" such as this, it it reasonably expected that you are actually interested in gaining some insight into the Catholic perspective and willing to participate in a discussion. Call me "nuts," but it seems reasonable to me that Catholic Christian participants can expect their views will be reasonably addressed in any such discussion...so far, not much luck!
If you are not willing to actually discuss what we believe because you refuse to find out, I'm confused why you are here in the first place.
You are in my prayers.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 8:25:22 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 547
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John,
quote:
Why can't Catholic asked people on earth to pray for them like they do those in heaven? If it's God doing it as I was told why can't it take place here on earth as it does in heaven?
They can. I think Doghouse addressed this already. Why do you believe a Catholic Christian doesn't possess the faith to believe our Father can lay our prayer intentions on any brother or sister's heart, whether "in the body" or "out of the body?"
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2008 9:43:11 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1141
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
just wanted to point out that I find it ironic that you prefer to interpret the referenced passage in such a way after I've seen so many non-Catholic Christians take John 16:13 as being personally spoken to them and a license to presume they are correct in every aspect of their biblical interpretation. For those who are unaware, the verse is [red-letter in the KJV, I expect?]:
"But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth."
I can't tell you how many times that verse has been thrown around by those who clearly do not adhere to the ancient faith. Why isn't that verse understood in context as being spoken to those who were in attendance at the Last Supper? I wonder what your stand is on that particular verse. Do you also recognize our Lord was speaking to those gathered in His Presence at that particular time, or do you believe this is a promise to all "believers" everywhere in every time?
Well, do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit is available to all believers? I believe He is, as it is indicated in the Scriptures. I would therefore assume that the Holy Spirit is doing what Jesus revealed to be the Holy Spirit's job, as comforter, and guide, for all believers.
Basically if you refuse to accept that anyone outside of the Lord's Supper could be guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth, then your Popes are in trouble too, aren't they?
quote:
I forgive you for the offensive comparison to Mormonism, Christian Science, and Islam, BTW. Whether you consider Catholicism "unscriptural" or not, if you choose to participate in a "Catholic discussion" such as this, it it reasonably expected that you are actually interested in gaining some insight into the Catholic perspective and willing to participate in a discussion. Call me "nuts," but it seems reasonable to me that Catholic Christian participants can expect their views will be reasonably addressed in any such discussion...so far, not much luck!
I think you're kind of missing my point.
My point is that if we're allowed to use extra-scriptural revelations to teach us things that Scripture does not teach about our religion, then there's a whole host of religions that claim to use the Bible as a holy book in some sense (holding it, of course, slightly lesser to their own special spiritual revelations), and I listed a few. So, as such, I am not particularly impressed when the "reference proof" of spiritual truths given is random Catholic commentaries that have basically no Scriptural backing.
We know whether doctrines are true or not by whether or not God has said in His Word that they are true. Not because someone has had a "revelation" lately. Whether that's the Pope, or some oddball cult leader in the backwoods somewhere.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 1:07:46 AM
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2Preacher
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I have been reading through many of the posts here (not ALL, there are waaaaay too many) but most. In doing so I have noted many things which I never really thought of concerning this topic.
I am a Baptist minister. Just so you know, Baptists are NOT protestants and never were. Some mistakenly trace our roots back through the centuries to John the Baptist but it has always been more a matter of Biblical doctrine than relation to a particular group. Baptists were around before the Reformation took place. That being said, let me get back to what I was originally going to say.
The whole subject of Praying to Mary and the Saints is one which I find both intriguing and at the same time heretical and even blasphemous. It intrigues me because so many "christians" practice it. I know of many non-catholic, non-orthodox groups that practice it. My question is Why? The "saints" as they are called were only mere mortals here in this life. Maybe they had a special relationship with God but they were still ONLY human beings who lived and died. Mary falls into this same category. Although she was the human mother of Christ, she too was ONLY a human being who lived and died. Undoubtedly she is in Heaven with the Lord, but she was ONLY human with no special powers or grace.
Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is God in the flesh. He is totally human and totally God at the same time. Unlike his MOTHER and ALL OF THE "SAINTS" Jesus was absolutely HOLY and SINLESSLY PERFECT THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE. His was absolute righteousness with no possibility of sin AND he is the ONLY through whom we may reach the Father. (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) God's word, the Bible, plainly teaches that it is through him and by him that we are to pray to God. (John 14:13-14;15:7) The way I see it, since Jesus Christ is God's Son, yea He is God himself in the flesh, why would I want to pray to anyone else when I have a need?
Christians are to pray for each others needs as Jesus said. But "Saints" in the sense that the RCC, OC, and others refer to them, are DEAD Human beings and nothing more. They cannot pray for anyone and do not.
A more CORRECT view of Saints Biblically is that the word, as used in Scripture refers many more times than not to those who are not dead, but quite alive. ALL BELIEVERS ARE CALLED SAINTS. They are not a "special class" of believers. Note the Apostle Pauls letters. Over and over he addresses them "to the saints which are at . . ." or "to the saints which are in . . ." (Ephesians 1:1; Col. 1:2; Acts 9:32; Rom. 15:25; II Cor.8:4; 9:1)
Those to whom Paul refers to in these verses were NOT but LIVE and still in this world. These were perfectly capable of being prayed for and praying for Paul.
Another interesting thing about the word "saint" is that the word itself means "one who is set apart; sanctified". All believers are "set apart" by the Holy Spirit. (I Corinthians 1:2; 6:11; Hebrews 2:11;10:9-22) We are set apart i.e. Sanctified by Jesus Christ. HE MAKES US SAINTS, NOT THE CANNONIZATION PROCESS OF THE RCC OR ANY OTHER CHURCH.
Praying "to" or "with" the "saints" as has been stated many times is NOT taught in Scripture. It is a form of IDOLATRY because of the images which are used to focus the thoughts of the "faithful". God's Word the Bible condemns Idolatry. The Ten Commandments state that we are not to make "any graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven or in earth" (Exodus 20:1-5) I realize that this passage is written to the Israelites but the principle applies to us as well. The use of images is prohibited by God himself.
The practice of praying to the saints is heretical because it is no where taught in Scripture. It was brought into the church around the time that Charlemagne the Holy Roman Emperor made Christianity the state religion of the Holy Roman emperor. Up until that time, the Christians were being persecuted and many were martyred for their faith. With the edict of Charlemagne that declared Christianity to be the official religion of the Holy Roman Empire, suddenly it became popular to be a member of the Church. Many things were brought into the church which were NOT Christian or Biblical, but Pagan. Prayers for the dead, the use of Icons and images, etc. were brought in by the pagans who were looking for ways to get "next to the Emperor" and many of those things have been retained by the president day RCC and OC in the form of Church Traditions. NONE OF THEM ARE BIBLICAL and NONE WERE TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES OR CHRIST.
The practice is BLASPHEMOUS in my opinion because it takes the focus off of God and his Son and places it on MERE HUMAN BEINGS who are not able to answer the prayers of those who pray to them.
Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ ALONE is the Savior, not Mary nor any other "saint" (Acts 4:12; John 14:6; John 3:16-18; I John 5:12)
Scripture plainly teaches that God alone answers prayers. (Jeremiah 33:3; Psalm 27:7; 65:5;86:7; 91:15) There are many other references which could be mentioned.
Psalm 115 sums it up as to why one should not engage in the idolatrous practice of praying to any other than God himself. It reads:
"1 ¶ Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
9 ¶ O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
10 O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
12 The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron.
13 He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.
14 The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.
15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD."
With a God like this, with whom we can correspond in prayer directly, what need is there for any other.
The reason for this type of error in the church is that for years, the RCC has held that it is the SOLE interpreter of Scripture for the "faithful". It has discouraged its people from reading the word of God for themselves and declared that it is the way to God.
I realize that this is offensive to some, but I mean no offense. I have read up on RCC doctrine and practice. I do not say that all Catholics are certainly lost or unsaved. I believe that there are "true believers" in the RCC. They are, however, those who have placed their faith and trust IN the Lord Jesus Christ alone for salvation realizing that neither the church nor their works can save them. (Ephesians 2:8-9) Salvation is all of Grace without works of any kind. One must be born again by the Spirit of God to experience eternal life. Without it, man is condemned to HELL for all of eternity.
PEACE
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 2:16:35 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3711
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
You are still asserting that "to pray" means "to worship". Perhaps you are not aware of what it is exactly you're doing? You "pray TO" saints. The RC practice has nothing to do with asking a fellow living Christian "TO pray" for them.
If I ask a friend to pray for me, I am not engaged in a spiritual activity nor am I "praying TO" that friend.
Attempts by RC to obfuscate what is essentially a very clear line between asking a friend to pray and "praying TO" a spirit being, for whatever reason, is proof enough of RC's unbiblical practice.
And yes indeed, "praying TO" a spirit is definitely a form of worship.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 2:17:55 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3711
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
To be honest yes I can say it was Marys intercession, which helped me. However it was Jesus/God who answered Mary's prayers on my behalf.
It's interesting that even though it was in opposition to the Word of God brought by the prophet Jeremiah, this is the exact answer given by those in Jeremiah 44:17. They insisted they would continue to "pray TO" the queen of heaven because their prayers were answered.
And God responded with this condemnation:
"So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed;...Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good:...shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs...that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:"
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 2:19:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3711
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
I'm sorry, but giving me links to Catholic propaganda in an effort to convince me of Catholic propaganda is redundant and rather useless.
As usual trying to examine both sides is completely discouraged in the protestant mind-set.
quote:
S Apparitions to farm children in France? Not terribly scriptural.
I don't see any cars or computers or WWI or II, so those must not have happened as well.
So much for truth searching...
Otis
Seems to be a continual problem for RC - not recongizing the differences between what is spiritual and what is temporal.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 2:27:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3711
Status: offline
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quote:
When you give Mary those titles, and that credit, you are giving credit where credit is very much not due
Mary is who Mary is to Catholics, because God is who God is to Catholics, and Jesus is who Jesus is to Catholics.
Rather, Mary is who she is to Catholics ONLY because of who she is to a pope - all of which has nothing whatsoever to do with God.
quote:
When Catholics honor Mary, they are recognizing the action of the grace of God,... Not a word of truth there. It is clear from the words of many of the Marian prayers that Mary is not only worshipped but imbued with the attributes of God.
quote:
That's it. To read anything else into it is to construct strawmen. Just as RCs seem confused by what is essentially two very simple concepts that of "praying TO" and "TO pray" so too they seemed confused as to what a "strawman" is. There has been no misrepresentation of RC's position. The word of your popes, the words of your prayers prove worship of Mary....so now, that's it.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 7:31:21 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 915
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I have read up on RCC doctrine and practice. Hi - welcome to the site. Here comes the Baptism by Fire:
- Its obvious to me that in spite of your "reading up on RCC doctrine", you don't have much grasp or comprehension on the instruction and practices of the Roman Catholic Church or its members. Pity, because as a preacher, I would think that you would want to understand and know all you can in order to establish your credibility as a starting point to evangelize your faith to Catholics. As a lifelong Catholic, I can assure that I find nothing more annoying than being lectured by someone who hasn't the foggiest notion of what I practice or why, except to say that whatever I practice must be wrong, because it is Catholic, and that's what they taught you at the seminary...or wherever you guys get this stuff from. In order to really understand the communion of Saints, you have to read Summa Theologica and be familiar with the underpinnings of this practice in the Deposit of Faith. Then...you might be in a position to tell me I'm wrong on this. Where did you attend seminary?
- Historical fact shows the roots of the Baptist Faith to be descended from the 18th century. So not only are Baptists Protestant, they are actually "protesting" the original Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans and perhaps Presbyterians) as a 2nd round of innovation and invention of Faith. Some Baptists that I have been around have tried to lay claim to Anabaptists as a pre-Reformation lineage, but unless you are Mennonite or Amish - that genealogy holds very little water.
I mean no offense to you either. But if you want to come out of the gate swinging, it is suggested that you get your facts straight first. I am not sure where you were educated, but a simple Google search would reveal a lot of information out in the world from some authoritative people that contradict your assertion - both about the Catholic faith and about your own.
quote:
with no possibility of sin If Jesus couldn't possibly sin, then God is simply mocking humanity by coming to earth as Jesus. The fact is, Jesus was faced with the same choices, options and temptations we face every day, and yet chose "right" and "not sin" as opposed to "wrong" and "sin". Jesus operated our flesh to perfection - showing us that this can indeed be done and that there is not something inherently flawed with humanity the way God created it; the flaw is with human will and they way it chooses to operate God's creation. The fact that Jesus could operate our flesh perfectly is the root of justification. I believe to believe as you do is to cast hopelessness and perhaps even despair on humanity, as there is no way to be righteous as God has called us to be, because we would have to be divine to do so.
quote:
A more CORRECT view of Saints Biblically is that the word, as used in Scripture refers many more times than not to those who are not dead, but quite alive. ALL BELIEVERS ARE CALLED SAINTS. They are not a "special class" of believers. This statement is contradictory to your previous one. You claim no "special class" of believers, and yet you then divide into "dead" and "alive" - for starters. The fact is that believers are unequal in their efficacy - St. James instructs this to us - "The prayers of the righteous are powerful", noting that one can be a believer, and yet not be righteous, or be mired in sin, or be unable to discipline themselves from their previous lifestyle, habits and choices, and perhaps their prayers be "less powerful". So I don't get how you come to your position, except to ignore Scripture that does not support your position.
quote:
is a form of IDOLATRY because of the images which are used to focus the thoughts of the "faithful". Idolatry would be expecting a statue to pass high school Trig for me...this isn't what is going on. See my first set of responses above about understanding Catholic practices before accidentally erecting strawmen.
quote:
The practice of praying to the saints is heretical because it is no where taught in Scripture. It was brought into the church around the time that Charlemagne the Holy Roman Emperor made Christianity the state religion of the Holy Roman emperor. Up until that time, the Christians were being persecuted and many were martyred for their faith. With the edict of Charlemagne that declared Christianity to be the official religion of the Holy Roman Empire, suddenly it became popular to be a member of the Church. A reading of the Church Fathers and some basic history would establish that this practice pre-dates Charlemagne by hundreds of years. An example would be this quote from Origen in 233 - ""But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep". This the practice of the early Church - predating even Constantine and the establishment of Christianity as and "official" religion in 325. Hermas, in "The Shepherd" in 80 AD discusses the assistance of the believer by the "holy angel" that appeared to him with prayers. See my signature to understand the relationship between Church and Scriptures.
quote:
The practice is BLASPHEMOUS in my opinion because it takes the focus off of God and his Son and places it on MERE HUMAN BEINGS who are not able to answer the prayers of those who pray to them.
Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ ALONE is the Savior, not Mary nor any other "saint" (Acts 4:12; John 14:6; John 3:16-18; I John 5:12)
Scripture plainly teaches that God alone answers prayers. (Jeremiah 33:3; Psalm 27:7; 65:5;86:7; 91:15) There are many other references which could be mentioned.
Psalm 115 sums it up as to why one should not engage in the idolatrous practice of praying to any other than God himself. It reads: If the practices were as you describe and characterize them, then I would agree with you. However, either deliberately or accidentally, you are merely erecting strawmen here. The fact is that the invocation of the Saints is to join their prayers for our causes with our prayers for our causes. If you believe these souls have perished, then you do not accept the Biblical promise of eternal life, and you are making God out to be a liar. Now, who is being blasphemous here? The Saints cannot answer prayers, they can only join us in prayers to God asking Him for His help. And yes, God alone is the one who answers the prayers and petitions of the faithful. Mary saves no one, and can only offer her prayers for our causes. If you understood anything about what Catholics believe in this regard, you would not level such a charge as you did in your post.
And now a question for you: If you cannot be troubled to study and learn the practices against which you evangelize, and continue to mischaracterize not only the practices, but the people practicing them, is that action bearing false witness against your neighbor? And if you are bearing false witness against your neighbor, and bearing false witness is fully condoned and encouraged by your practice of faith, then who is the heretic here after all?
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 8:02:37 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 298
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I guess I am not making myself clear...
I guess I am not either.
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 8:21:38 AM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 103
Joined: 7/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Now, who is being blasphemous here? The Saints cannot answer prayers, they can only join us in prayers to God asking Him for His help. And yes, God alone is the one who answers the prayers and petitions of the faithful.
Catholic prayers:
Prayer to St. Anthony
Feast Day: June 13
O Saint Anthony, Saint of Miracles, Saint of Help. I also have need of your assistance; I have need of this special favor (mention your favor).
Therefore, console me in my present necessity and grant me the help that, with full confidence, I hope for.
Amen.
This prayer and many others can be found in:
"Catholic Prayers & Devotions"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Mary saves no one, and can only offer her prayers for our causes. If you understood anything about what Catholics believe in this regard, you would not level such a charge as you did in your post.
No? So why do Catholics pray this:
We turn to you for protection,
holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin
And don't forget the perpetual help:
O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary.
Looks to me like Jesus got completely bumped off there.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 8:48:35 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 298
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
To be honest yes I can say it was Marys intercession, which helped me. However it was Jesus/God who answered Mary's prayers on my behalf.
It's interesting that even though it was in opposition to the Word of God brought by the prophet Jeremiah, this is the exact answer given by those in Jeremiah 44:17. They insisted they would continue to "pray TO" the queen of heaven because their prayers were answered.
And God responded with this condemnation:
"So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed;...Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good:...shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs...that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:"
The difference being I give Mary credit for only her intercessory help, God answers the her, as was done at the wedding at Cana for example.
Pax
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 9:13:08 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
Why should I read a bunch of unscriptural propaganda? You might as well encourage me to "examine both sides" for Mormonism or Christian Science or Islam or any number of other religions.
This also demonstrates a closed mind-set. Our stuff propaganda? So can I also assume you think all protestant books are as well since they may cover "unscriptural" topics? How can you not make an argument with a person if you don't understand what they believe!
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Well, I can find evidence for cars and computers and WWI and WWII, so it's pretty proveable. When we're talking things that are spiritual, though, and only appeared to some of the people looking right at it (the very few instances in Scripture where there are apparitions, everyone in the area saw the apparition), there's no basis for just saying "Oh, well, SUPER! You saw an apparition! I'll just do whatever you tell me it said!" Tell me why I should believe in an apparition appearing to kids in France, and not in, say, aliens. Or ghosts.
FYI, over 70K people at Fatima witnessed a miraculous event. So there is evidence if you care to look. As with any topic such as ghosts, if one is just going to refuse to look then you could still very well believe the earth is flat.
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Well, I was kind of hoping for, you know, a Scriptural basis.
And as we have done on numerous times you would just dismiss Catholic scriptural references because it doesn't jive with your own personal interpretation. Even when supposedly agreed upon rules of interpretation are used more often then not (Peter vs rock for example) people still find a way to dismiss it.
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 11:01:40 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1141
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
This also demonstrates a closed mind-set. Our stuff propaganda? So can I also assume you think all protestant books are as well since they may cover "unscriptural" topics? How can you not make an argument with a person if you don't understand what they believe!
I check what Protestant books say against Scripture if they claim to be making doctrinal statements. If they don't jive, then I consider them propaganda for some sort of misguided practice or heresy as well. If what they're covering is an unscriptural topic, then I consider them mere opinion of the writer, not doctrinal truth of any kind.
Are you saying that worship of Mary and prayer to Mary is an unscriptural topic?
I would say that prayer and worship are very scriptural topics given how many warnings there are against praying to, and worshipping, the wrong things... as well as instructions on proper methods of prayer and worship.
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Well, I can find evidence for cars and computers and WWI and WWII, so it's pretty proveable. When we're talking things that are spiritual, though, and only appeared to some of the people looking right at it (the very few instances in Scripture where there are apparitions, everyone in the area saw the apparition), there's no basis for just saying "Oh, well, SUPER! You saw an apparition! I'll just do whatever you tell me it said!" Tell me why I should believe in an apparition appearing to kids in France, and not in, say, aliens. Or ghosts.
FYI, over 70K people at Fatima witnessed a miraculous event. So there is evidence if you care to look. As with any topic such as ghosts, if one is just going to refuse to look then you could still very well believe the earth is flat.
Some people saw the sun doing weird things, not an apparition giving instruction. Descriptions of what they actually saw varied. Some saw nothing. What the children saw was entirely different from what everyone else saw. Compare this to the OT meteorological and astronomical miracles, where what was seen was clear to everyone in the area and had a specific effect and purpose.
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And as we have done on numerous times you would just dismiss Catholic scriptural references because it doesn't jive with your own personal interpretation. Even when supposedly agreed upon rules of interpretation are used more often then not (Peter vs rock for example) people still find a way to dismiss it.
So far, every reference you have given is either unclear or obviously doesn't mean what you say it does. Wouldn't you expect such a scripturally contradictory and pervasive doctrine as praying to the saints and Mary to be clearly laid out in Scripture somewhere? Perhaps as clearly as Jesus taught his disciples to pray? If nothing else to make sure that the appropriate limitations in doing so are obvious and easy to follow.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 1:01:54 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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If they don't jive, then I consider them propaganda for some sort of misguided practice or heresy as well.
And so if you wrote something trying to explain a passage, then that guy could say your stuff is propaganda as well...now how fun would that be.
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Compare this to the OT meteorological and astronomical miracles, where what was seen was clear to everyone in the area and had a specific effect and purpose.
Try comparing it to NT miracles and then you will notice that Christ uses a different approach and one should not expect miracles of today to be perfect examples from the OT. "clear to everyone"??
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So far, every reference you have given is either unclear or obviously doesn't mean what you say it does.
Every reference to what? This topic or all?
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Wouldn't you expect such a scripturally contradictory and pervasive doctrine as praying to the saints and Mary to be clearly laid out in Scripture somewhere?
No, that is your incorrect expectation because your basic approach to scripture is misguided. Protestants have to think it is a clearly written text book that could be perfectly applied and understood by anyone if they just read it. In fact, it is a very complex set of books written in an ancient language that has been translated numerous time by...wait are you sitting...fallible humans. So as a fallible human I approach scripture with a healthy dose of fear and trepidation so I don't run off the rails and just read one passage and make up some new doctrine which is not what the author intended. That is a main reason for an organized Church that has preserved the intent as well as the written portions of what the apostles and writers intended. And since we can't interview them on 60 minutes anymore, the Church is in fact empowered by Christ to bind and loose the flock.
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Perhaps as clearly as Jesus taught his disciples to pray?
By this do you mean we are only to say the Our Father? Which version btw? Do we kneel or stand? Can we sing it? Is that ok? Can you only pray to the Father? How about the Holy Spirit? Does He specifically prohibit other types of prayer? He even talked to dead guys--Moses/Elijha--so He must have forgot that was prohibited.
So even these simple things are not as simply as you would like to make them appear.
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 2:45:34 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1141
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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And so if you wrote something trying to explain a passage, then that guy could say your stuff is propaganda as well...now how fun would that be.
He could if he would like, then we would discuss it on the basis of scripture, and how my interpretation of that passage holds up both against that passage, and against other passages of scripture with similar themes.
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Try comparing it to NT miracles and then you will notice that Christ uses a different approach and one should not expect miracles of today to be perfect examples from the OT. "clear to everyone"??
Okay, meteorological and astronomical miracles of the NT then. I can think of a couple... Jesus told the storm to stop. The storm stopped. Everyone saw that the storm stopped. You can't really have a storm in a given location that is both stopped and unstopped depending on your observer. When Jesus died, darkness covered the land for 3 hours and there was an earthquake in Judea. This is recorded in Scripture, by Thallus (as cited by Julius Africanus' "Chronography"), and by Phlegon in his "Olympiades".
Did you have a specific NT miracle involving meteorological and/or astronomical phenomena that you were referring to?
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Every reference to what? This topic or all?
Well, we're in this topic, so we should probably stick with this topic, don't you think?
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No, that is your incorrect expectation because your basic approach to scripture is misguided. Protestants have to think it is a clearly written text book that could be perfectly applied and understood by anyone if they just read it. In fact, it is a very complex set of books written in an ancient language that has been translated numerous time by...wait are you sitting...fallible humans. So as a fallible human I approach scripture with a healthy dose of fear and trepidation so I don't run off the rails and just read one passage and make up some new doctrine which is not what the author intended. That is a main reason for an organized Church that has preserved the intent as well as the written portions of what the apostles and writers intended. And since we can't interview them on 60 minutes anymore, the Church is in fact empowered by Christ to bind and loose the flock.
Your disdain for Scripture continues to astound me.
It's a complex set of books written in several ancient languages. It's been translated numerous times, but most current translations go back to the original languages (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic) and translate those directly, from the various manuscripts (there are 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the NT available, for example) which are compared and contrasted to make sure that the manuscripts are in agreement regarding what is said. 99% of the variants in those 24,000 manuscripts tend to be a missing letter in a word, or a word reversal that does not affect context. The remaining 1% of variants are not theologically significant. These manuscripts are translated by large teams of translators (some have over a hundred) to ensure that the translations are the best rendering of what is actually said, and not merely the opinion of a single translator.
Furthermore, we rely on God to guide the translators in their best efforts at translating, as He has promised that His Word will be preserved. And, there are thousands of people who can read the original languages (including the pastor of my church) who would certainly take issue if the translation said something it wasn't supposed to.
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."
1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."
So, when you ask me the question "Are you going to believe a direct translation of tens of thousands of agreeing manuscripts as translated by dozens of the best translators of those languages we have, with God's promise regarding that His words will be preserved, and triple checked by the thousands of people who are also trained in those languages, OR are you going to believe a word-of-mouth tradition that has been passed down over two millenia by people who often bribed their way into that position of power, were entirely depraved, burned at the stake people who tried to translate God's Word in order to hold their monopoly on religious power, and had their own agenda?", then I'm kind of going to have to look at you incredulously and say "I think I'm sticking with the Bible. Thanks though."
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By this do you mean we are only to say the Our Father? Which version btw? Do we kneel or stand? Can we sing it? Is that ok? Can you only pray to the Father? How about the Holy Spirit? Does He specifically prohibit other types of prayer?
Jesus said "This, then, is how you should pray". Not "specifically what you should pray". He's providing a model. So, while we don't need to pray the specific Our Father, we do have a specific guideline regarding how we are to pray there. As for positions or vocalizations, it would seem inconsequential given the command to "pray without ceasing" in 1 Thess 5:17, so it would be reasonable to assume we can pray regardless of what physical position or verbal/nonverbal form we are using at the moment.
As for the Trinity, they're all God, so that's kind of moot.
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He even talked to dead guys--Moses/Elijha--so He must have forgot that was prohibited.
There's nothing anywhere that says God can't talk to dead people. Quite the contrary, in fact. I hope we can agree that Jesus is God, so...
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/31/2008 4:30:38 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 69
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
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Doghouse:
It is obvious to me that the words of my previous post have offended you because you are obviously sincere in your belief and practice. Most of the Catholic friends I have known are very sincere people, as am I. That sincerity of faith and belief can cause one to become very defensive of their belief system. I appreciate your sincerity although I feel a bit like I have received a beating.
I still maintain that Baptists are not Protestants. We were never part of the Catholic church so there is nothing to protest. Baptist faith and doctrine, correctly based, is based on the words of Scripture alone. (I make this point because I notice that your post did not quote or reference one single verse of Scripture.) Other churches have creeds, confessions, and traditions, etc. on which they build their doctrines and beliefs ALONG with Scripture.
While Baptist do have a few Confession statements, and most have a Statement of Faith, the general practice is to base what we believe and state in those Confession Statements and Statements of Faith SOLELY on the SCRIPTURES. If the doctrine or belief is not supported by Scripture then the doctrine or belief is in error, NEVER the Scriptures.
Again I mean no offense and I am not saying that Baptists have a "corner on the market" concerning faith. I have come a long way from believing that any group or religion is absolutely right and all others are wrong. I am simply a "sinner saved by Grace" first of all and I am a Baptist by conviction. I base my personal beliefs SOLELY on the Scriptures and I believe that Baptist doctrine is most closely aligned with Scripture. Therefore, I am a Baptist.
You are correct, and I stand corrected, on the issue regarding Catholic Doctrine. I am not a student of Catholicism. My exposure to it has been through the many classes which I took in Seminary and College. Some of what I learned may be inaccurate being the teachings of men unfamiliar with the church. Most of the beliefs were documented, as are those of Lorrain Boetner, with statements excerpted directly from the literature and statements of the | | |
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