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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 3:02:08 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1509
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From: Connecticut
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First of all, if I come to someone ALIVE with a prayer request, I do not pray to them to pray for me.
I could just see it now, going to my wife and saying: "Oh most Glorious Cindy, I come to you on my knees and ask that you intercede in my behalf and relay my prayer request to God.....etc, etc, etc"
She would probably smack me in the head and tell me to bring it to Jesus!
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Holy Cow. All this has to do with is asking people to pray for you. Thats it.
Dead folks are not people
Why would those in Heaven want to concern themselves with what's going on here on earth? I don't know about you, but when I get to Heaven and meet my Savior, the last thing on my mind will be what I just left behind!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 9:25:02 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2840
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
This in no way indicates the level of omniscience/omnipresence necessary to hear, comprehend, and forward thousands of simultaneous prayers around the world. It doesn't even indicate that those who have died and are in Heaven are at all aware of our requests or what's going on down here.
Very wise and astute post.
Spiritual discernment tells us this.
Plus, NOTHING outside of RCC confirms.
Why would one want to believe that there
are folk in Heaven scurrying around in some
kind of supersonic frenzied mode, listening
in order to process a petitioner's prayer ?
It's added comfort and support for a RC.
IOW, it's almost a numbers game.
These few RC we have here give us
their isolated opinion and viewpoint.
Go to RC websites or converse with RC.
If you ask a RC why they pray to others,
they will tell you the church encourages it.
They did when I was RC. Did to my family.
This is how RC are raised and taught.
Prayer cards, novenas, litanies,...intercession.
St Joseph's, any breviary, a missal...prayers.
Why would you need a saint to pray for you ?
You would have to think their prayer better !
Is the prayer being "handed off" to the saint ?
Is the saint being buttered up or cajoled into
petitioning God on one's behalf. Unnecessary !
We can boldly approach The Throne of Grace !
I have no need for anyone. A saint can't help.
The saint enjoys no special audience.
There is no "A" list of people God listens to.
Is Jesus too busy ? Is He sharing the work ?
Are the saints like Santa's elves ? Helpers.
That sounds so offensive I hate to type it.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 9:38:07 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Is there anyone of the Catholic faith that will answer my question?
John
Sure but what exactly was your question?
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 10:03:48 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Plus, NOTHING outside of RCC confirms.
Did you miss all the posts about the other denominations that pray to Mary and the saints it isn't a Catholic only thing.
quote:
IOW,
What does this mean please?
quote:
it's almost a numbers game.
These few RC we have here give us
their isolated opinion and viewpoint.
There may only be a few Catholics on this post but this is not our opinion. This is the opinion of the Catholic Church not just a handful of us who post on message boards.
quote:
Go to RC websites or converse with RC.
If you ask a RC why they pray to others,
they will tell you the church encourages it.
They did when I was RC. Did to my family.
This is how RC are raised and taught.
Yes the Catholic Church encourages prayers to the saints the church encourages us to go to our brothers and sisters in christ who lead holy lives to request they join us in prayer.
quote:
Prayer cards, novenas, litanies,...intercession.
St Joseph's, any breviary, a missal...prayers.
Why would you need a saint to pray for you ?
You would have to think their prayer better !
Is the prayer being "handed off" to the saint ?
Is the saint being buttered up or cajoled into
petitioning God on one's behalf. Unnecessary !
We can boldly approach The Throne of Grace !
I have no need for anyone. A saint can't help.
The saint enjoys no special audience.
There is no "A" list of people God listens to.
Is Jesus too busy ? Is He sharing the work ?
Are the saints like Santa's elves ? Helpers.
That sounds so offensive I hate to type it.
Santa's elves - I have to say I haven't heard that one before.  and it make me kinda happy that you see that as offensive.
There is nothing that I think I or any of the Catholics (or anyone from another denomination that prays to the saints) here can say to make you understand what these prayers from the saints mean to us and how much they can help, and even if we tried you don't think we should be doing it so I don't think you would believe us anyway.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 10:09:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Is there anyone of the Catholic faith that will answer my question?
John
Sure but what exactly was your question?
First I asked
If one can ask a friend in heaven to pray for them why can't they ask a friend on earth in the same manner?
I was told we can't... So I asked the following...
So we have reach a place where you clearly state that you cannot ask those on earth to pray for you like those on heaven... Why?
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 10:24:32 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Is there anyone of the Catholic faith that will answer my question?
John
Sure but what exactly was your question?
First I asked
If one can ask a friend in heaven to pray for them why can't they ask a friend on earth in the same manner?
I was told we can't... So I asked the following...
So we have reach a place where you clearly state that you cannot ask those on earth to pray for you like those on heaven... Why?
John
1st Catholics can and do ask those on earth to pray for us.
Is it in the same manner? Not always but its just a different form of conversation. for example - I type much differently on these posts then I would speak to you if we were in person. A lot can be said from tone and body movements which neither of us can gather over the internet. BTW some prayers to the saints are as simple as St Joseph - Pray for us(me, name) which would be very much like speaking to a friend (John would you pray for me.)
Hope that helps, gotta run!
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/28/2008 10:58:37 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
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And yet some are like the Marian prayer I quoted earlier, in which Mary is accorded a bunch of attributes and actions that are really only true of God.
So, do you reject the more worshipful prayers?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 1:22:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3854
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quote:
My perception of the problem between Catholics and Protestants in this regard is that this is a valid practice, practiced i this way since the first of the earliest Church. Somewhere in the middle of the 16th century, in a move designed to differentiate or discriminate the "new" religion from the old.... The "old" religion had become so corrupt it cried out for the "new"; and by the grace of God He heard the "cry".
quote:
....in terms of "market discrimination", the idea that this practice is somehow now invalid was invented. The "invention" of the invalidity was God's invention since no where in His Word do we find prayer to anyone but Him. Regardless of the age of this invalid practice, God's Word precedes it in both age and truth.
quote:
By now, the notion that our Christian walk was meant to be a solo act, without fellowship, support and participation with our fellow Christians, is deeply ingrained in a sliver of the total of those who practice Christianity - errantly, I believe. Oh, please. Some Christians prefer their fellowship to be with God and their fellow church members just as God commands – rather than with the spirits of the dead as RC teaches – a practice which is without the support of God.
quote:
but, the fact remains that prayer is form of worship.
...actually, the fact remains that you BELIEVE prayer is a form of worship.
Nope, check out a dictionary. They "believe" that prayer is a form of worship - right along with your own popes - and, of course, the evidence from the worshipping Marian prayers.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 1:59:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3854
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
When you say prayer is worship are you saying then that the use of the word "pray" in the biblical passages that I shared previously meant that Paul, David, Jacob, etc. were worshipping the creatures with whom they were "praying" to?
These posts are simply so preposterous they really do not deserve a response. So, I'll simply repeat:
I really hope, but I fear it isn't, that this was a "joke" post.
I suppose if you enter a fastfood joint you beseech and pray the clerk to prepare you a WHOPPER.....lol
Come on guys, get a grip. You simply have no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God. Prayer is worship and God alone is worthy of worship AND prayer.
Seeing now that it is actually not a joke, those who equate praying to spirit beings with "praying" for a WHOPPER; it is not only preposterous but actually pathetically sad.
Hello kelman,
You are asserting that prayer is worship and you are also saying that there is no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God and therefore you are making the charge that catholics "worship" the saints when they "pray" to them.
Will it be unfair to you if you be asked to defend the assertions that you are making? No more unfair than asking you to defend this practice. Actually, what is "unfair" is your refusal to acknowledge ALL the consistent answers given to your questions and answers which prove this practice to be unscriptural. Your problem remains the inability to pose any reasonble questions.
Why RC continues to portray their practice of “praying” to saints as equal to that of ordering a Whopper is really quite amusing. Since you so confuse a temporal act with that of a spiritual act, the contents of your post and the scripture you quote is irrelevant to the topic.
quote:
Here's some of the biblical passages again:
The biblical passages you offer have nothing to do with praying to spirits in heaven. So, again they are irrelevant to this discussion.
quote:
Allow me to ask the question again:
When you say prayer is worship, are you saying then that in the biblical passages above Paul, David, Jacob, etc. were worshipping the creatures with whom they were "praying" to? You asked before and I answered before. Why insist that praying to and beseeching of the clerk when you order a WHOPPER is the same as the spiritual practice of praying to SPIRITS? It’s so laughable still RC persists. Your argument(used very loosely) deserves no further answer because its lack of validity has been covered in full. And frankly, it stands a monument to RC's irrational confusion between a temporal act and a spiritual one.
quote:
Now, you refused to answer that question before and it is very understandable as to why you choose not to. Because in order for you to be consistent with your assertions that:
LOL….waste your time building your strawman. Your questions have been answered so why not attempt to find a legitimate point? Although, I do understand why you will not present a legitimate point. Really, because your premise is so preposterous it deserves no further answer....actually, it never deserved an answer to begin with; but, I was being kind to even bother with such silliness.
quote:
Can you still say that the Catholic position does not have biblical and historical support to say that to "pray to" someone does not mean they are "worshipping" that someone?
Most emphatically the RC position is completely scripturally groundless, notwithstanding all attempts to twist and decimate Scripture to comply with modern RC teachings.
quote:
Or are you still saying that to "pray to" someone equals worshipping that someone? Certainly, since that's what it is. Even some of your popes agree that it is. You've accomplished nothing with your verses because they have nothing to do with praying to SPIRITS. It is most unfortunate that RC feels the need to use such a totally nonresponsive noncompelling argument(again loosely used).
quote:
Kelman, since you claim to be an ardent believer of the Word of God, can you verify from Scripture (the KJV in particular) if those passages are true or just a joke? Of course, the passages are true regardless of your attempt to make them into a joke. But, it is written "God will not be mocked".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 8:34:59 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
And yet some are like the Marian prayer I quoted earlier, in which Mary is accorded a bunch of attributes and actions that are really only true of God.
So, do you reject the more worshipful prayers?
Zhi - To be honest I have not seen a Marian prayer which gave me pause about the language in the prayer. But I have been a Catholic and around these prayers my whole life. And at the same time I was being taught the words to the prayers the relationship that we as Catholics are call to have with God, Mary and the saints was also being taught. There has never been any confusion as to were were God/Jesus was placed or Mary and the Saints.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 10:48:00 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Zhi - To be honest I have not seen a Marian prayer which gave me pause about the language in the prayer. But I have been a Catholic and around these prayers my whole life. And at the same time I was being taught the words to the prayers the relationship that we as Catholics are call to have with God, Mary and the saints was also being taught. There has never been any confusion as to were were God/Jesus was placed or Mary and the Saints.
Okay. Let's look at the prayer I quoted again then.
"Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying. We promise to be faithful disciples of Jesus Christ, your Son, to proclaim His Good News of God's love for all people, and to work for peace and justice in our world. With faith in your intercession, we pray for the Church, for our family and friends, for the poor and abandoned, and all the dying. Grant, O Mary, Help of Christians, the graces of which we stand in need. (Mention your intentions.) May we serve Jesus with fidelity and love until death. Help us and our loved ones to attain the boundless joy of being forever with our Father in heaven. Amen."
Do you see any problem with this prayer at all (I got it off a Catholic website of common prayers to Mary)? Do you have any issues with Mary being referred to as our help, refuge, hope, comfort, etc, attributes and actions ascribed in the Scripture to God alone? Or are you okay with everything this prayer says?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 10:53:26 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
help, refuge, hope, comfort, etc,
My parents have provided me many of these gifts...how about yours! ;)
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 11:52:44 AM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
...
I really hope, but I fear it isn't, that this was a "joke" post.
I suppose if you enter a fastfood joint you beseech and pray the clerk to prepare you a WHOPPER.....lol
Come on guys, get a grip. You simply have no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God. Prayer is worship and God alone is worthy of worship AND prayer.
Regardless of the errors RC teaches, all "intentions" are brought before the throne of grace - that is what God teaches.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Hello kelman,
You are still asserting that "to pray" means "to worship".
Let us assume that you are correct in your assertion that "to pray" means "to worship" and not "to ask".
Question:
If a Christian brother were to ask another christian to "pray" to God for him, are you saying then that this christian brother is asking another christian to "worship" God for him?
Since you deny that "to pray" means "to ask", are you saying then that when christians ask other christians to "pray" to God for them they are actually asking these other people to "worship" God for them?
Are christians allowed to request someone else to worship God for them? Can we actually delegate that obligation to someone else?
Can you justify that?
Isn't it true that when a christian will ask another christian to "pray" to God for them, they are actually requesting the other christian to "ask" God for help for whatever are their intentions?
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 12:07:40 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
My parents have provided me many of these gifts...how about yours! ;)
I would say there's a big difference between saying "you've helped me" and "you are the Help of Christians". There's a big difference between saying "you've given me refuge" and "you are the Refuge of sinners". Especially when we're talking about a dead person here, who is not supposed to have any interaction with the living for fear of violation of necromancy rules.
The prayer takes attributes that have been SPECIFICALLY said about God in Scripture, and ascribes them to Mary, to whom they are NEVER assigned in Scripture.
Why would you do that?
Help of Christians
Psalm 121:1 1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. 2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble
Hebrews 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Philippians 4:19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 13:5-6 God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
Refuge of sinners
The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, A refuge in times of trouble. And those who know Your name will put their trust in You; For You, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You. (Ps 9.9-10)
Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Hope of the hopeless
1 Thess 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Job 5:8 "But if it were I, I would appeal to God; I would lay my cause before him. 9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted. 10 He bestows rain on the earth; he sends water upon the countryside. 11 The lowly he sets on high, and those who mourn are lifted to safety. 12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success. 13 He catches the wise in their craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are swept away. 14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime; at noon they grope as in the night. 15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth; he saves them from the clutches of the powerful. 16 So the poor have hope, and injustice shuts its mouth. "
Psa 38:15 For I hope in You, O LORD; You will answer, O Lord my God.
Psa 43:5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why are you disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, The help of my countenance and my God.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Consoler of the afflicted and Comforter of the dying
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
2 Cor 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2 Thess 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Granter of grace
Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor 1:3)
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Assistance in attainment of the joy of being forever with our Father in heaven
Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.' John 14:6
None of those verses have an "and Mary" tacked on to them. Why? Because Mary is a person, just like you or me. She's not the fourth part of the Godhead, she doesn't have any inherent power in her, the only reason she's special is that God did a great work in her, in His glory and power. To ascribe to her attributes that Scripture ascribes solely to God Himself is giving glory where glory is not deserved. Mary does not deserve to be called any of those things... because Mary is not any of those things. God is. And, if you insist on insulting God by attributing to Mary those things that are God's domain alone, I fear for you.
Mary is GONE. She is not omnipresent or omniscient or omnipotent as God is. She cannot help us, she cannot comfort us, she can't get us to heaven any more than she could get herself to heaven on her own power. If you claim she does any of these things you're stating you have two-way communication with a dead person, and you've just violated your own necromancy rules.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 1:04:46 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1509
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL:
Okay. Let's look at the prayer I quoted again then.
- "Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, - Where is this in Scripture?
- Help of Christians - Where is this in Scripture?
- we place ourselves under your motherly protection - Where is this in Scripture?
- Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. - Where is this in Scripture?
- Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying. - Where is this in Scripture?
- Grant, O Mary, Help of Christians, the graces of which we stand in need. (Mention your intentions.) - Where is this in Scripture?
Catch the pattern here?
Zhi has provided numerous Scriptures that assign these attributes to God Almighty.
Now it is YOUR turn to provide Scripture that assigns these attributes to MARY
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 2:38:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Is there anyone of the Catholic faith that will answer my question?
John
Sure but what exactly was your question?
First I asked
If one can ask a friend in heaven to pray for them why can't they ask a friend on earth in the same manner?
I was told we can't... So I asked the following...
So we have reach a place where you clearly state that you cannot ask those on earth to pray for you like those on heaven... Why?
John
1st Catholics can and do ask those on earth to pray for us.
Is it in the same manner? Not always but its just a different form of conversation. for example - I type much differently on these posts then I would speak to you if we were in person. A lot can be said from tone and body movements which neither of us can gather over the internet. BTW some prayers to the saints are as simple as St Joseph - Pray for us(me, name) which would be very much like speaking to a friend (John would you pray for me.)
Hope that helps, gotta run!
Pax,
Mary
Didn't help... Why can't Catholic asked people on earth to pray for them like they do those in heaven? If it's God doing it as I was told why can't it take place here on earth as it does in heaven?
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 5:31:24 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 95
Joined: 7/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Zhi has provided numerous Scriptures that assign these attributes to God Almighty.
Now it is YOUR turn to provide Scripture that assigns these attributes to MARY
Mary has one title that's in the bible.
Mary the Queen of Heaven. Jer 7 and 44.
She comes in different forms. This time as Mary.
Different time, different form but the same procedure.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 5:47:45 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4216
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Now by my reading, it appears God isn't too happy with the people making cakes for the "queen of heaven."
Jeremiah 7
16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?
Jeremiah 44
15 Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, [c] said to Jeremiah, 16 "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 5:56:13 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Didn't help... Why can't Catholic asked people on earth to pray for them like they do those in heaven? If it's God doing it as I was told why can't it take place here on earth as it does in heaven? Allow me to carry on from this post...
- When I pray to God, I am praying for those things which He can change and effect, including my comprehension and understanding of things He plans on throwing at me.
- When the Saints pray in intercessory prayers, some of their causes are my causes too, but their prayers are more effective than mine.
- Ergo, their prayers for my causes make my prayer more effective.
St. Thomas Aquinas offers this explanation:
"Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): 'The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): 'And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel' (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4). "
It dawns on me that maybe we all need to stop and define just exactly what "prayer" is.
Prayer is not "Dear God, please let my football team win this weekend..."
Prayer is rarely what God can do for us, but what God can do for us to help others, or for others to get God's help, perhaps, as well as a means and nmechanism to unsderstand and cope with those things with which we are faced. If there are Christians out there praying to win the lottery, they better throw in the caveat "so that I may donate the money to the curing of the sick, the feeding of the poor and the housing of the homeless - to Your glory..." or something similar. Maybe we just don't agree on what prayer is and what it is supposed to be doing for us in our faith walk. And this disagreement over just what it is that we are doing when we "pray' is the source of the confusion and disagreement.
This article I found to be informative and somewhat authoritative on the subject. I like this article as well.
Either the Saints are alive in Christ or they are not. And either they are aware of the needs of humanity or they are not. And in this awareness, they either offer their prayers or they don't. The answers to these questions span the gamut, from Catholics who believe that to be in heaven is to be alive in Christ and in that life, fully aware of what is going on and able to offer requests about it, all the way to Calvin, who claims that the Saints are not alive, and even if they were, they couldn't possibly care less what goes on with humanity ("Gall. Confess.", art. xxiv; "Remonst. Conf." c. xvi, sect. 3).
All positions discerned from the same Bible.
Choose your camp.
Another way to parse the discussion would be to divide the "intercession" of the Saints from the "invocation" of the Saints. Are there souls in heaven and do they pray for Christiani causes? Are these Christian causes the same ones we still pray about? Does the combination of their prayers with our prayers make our prayers more effective? This is then the "intercessory" discussion.
Can the Saints hear our requests for their prayers? Do they then pray for these causes on our behalf? This is the "invocation" discussion.
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 6:30:54 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 95
Joined: 7/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
"Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him.
And which way is this?
quote:
Dear St Anthony, Please guide me ...
my dear st anthony, please i beg in front of you to ... i need your immediate assistance to ... my dear st anthony i need your blessing
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 7:44:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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Simple question...
Why can't Catholic asked people on earth to pray for them like they do those in heaven? If it's God doing it as I was told why can't it take place here on earth as it does in heaven?
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 8:33:50 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1509
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
Mary has one title that's in the bible.
Mary the Queen of Heaven. Jer 7 and 44.
She comes in different forms. This time as Mary.
Different time, different form but the same procedure.
Please tell me you are not serious. First, where n those verses does it say that the "Queen of Heaven" is Mary?
Second...seems to me that God is quite upset at what these people are doing
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2008 8:39:03 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1433
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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I'm pretty sure the reference was tongue-in-cheek.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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