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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 6:15:15 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
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Why is it that self-discernment is never "man-made"? The "man" in this case is - self, isn't it?
If you claim "no. Holy Spirit inspired", then why is it such a leap that the Faith discerned by the Roman Catholic Church is also "Holy Spirit inspired" - and that I choose to assent to that defined Faith, rather than the randomness that I may come up with on my own?
Isn't this position and argument a bit like having your cake, and eating it too?
It reminds me of a line from a movie - where a guy is talking to a reporter about the fairness and accuracy of what's in the paper. The reporter claims tha the paper is not reposnsible for what people think, because people think whatever they want, regardless of what's in the paper.
To which the guy asks the reporter, "well then, who writes the news in the paper - nobody?"
It just seems somehow that when its "me", that somehow that is a different case. Its not - if you read and decide - you are creating "man-made" doctrine.
What are then left with discussing is who's "man-made doctrine" is more Faithful and accurate to what Jesus intended and what doctrine represents the fullness of Faith prescribed in the relationship to which God has called us - in Scriptures and through what was handed to us by the Apostles and those that bore witness first-hand to Christ.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 8:56:27 PM
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superdave
Posts: 25
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From: Atlanta, Georgia!
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You can forget that. I don't think there are many Protestants that will acknowledge the truth about Luther. I remember seeing a special on PBS where it showed a Catholic Church constructed in the attic space of several joined houses. They were persecuted by the followers of the great Luther and could not openly practice their faith. Swedish Protestants also went to Russia and burned 1,000 year old monasteries, churches and killed monks. Amazing how so Protestants either don’t know about this sort of thing or excuse it while condemning Catholic actions.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 9:33:04 PM
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TimL
Posts: 409
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Hi Superdave,
I have really enjoyed your specials on TV. I really appreciate all that tongue in cheek humor.
I forget who said this but the quote goes sort of like this:
"To become a student of history is to cease to be a Protestant."
As an amatuer student of history, I know how convincingly history can be warped and/or ingored by those who have an agenda that is not supported by actual history. Just look at how Japanese textbooks, used in their schools, treat the issue of Pearl Harbor, and their treatment of the Chineese and the Koreans.
History is not written by the victors as is commonly held. History is written by anyone with a cause, right or wrong.
The history of the Reformation is written from two different persectives; Catholic and Protestant. The only way to discern the truth is to read the actual writings of the forces on both sides. A reading of Luther's actual words reveals him to be exactly what he was, and actually reveals his relationship with God.
The truth about Luther, the "Father of the Reformation", reveals the man for what he was, and cannot do anything but place doubts about his attack on the Church and his actual relationship with God once read. It is his own words he indicates that he hates God, and as such, cannot be trusted to preach the word of God or to be an authority on anything associated with God.
Nothing that Martin Luther taught, in defiance of 1500 years of Christianity, not "Faith Alone", not Sola Scriptura, can be viewed in the same light once you have read the actual writings of the man himself. Once you read the actual writings of Luther, it is impossible to view his revolt against the Catholic Church in the same manner as before. While Luther was rightfully opposed to certain abuses within the Church, he ended up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Anyone who is willing to study the writings of Luther will come to the same conclusion that I have. This was not a man of God. He was not qualifed to lead Christians anywhere, let alone away from the Church that Christ established; the Church that was led by the Holy Spirit, as promised the the Scriptures; the Church that at the time had been led by the Holy Spirit for almost 1500 years.
The Protestant faiths generally ignore the history of early Christianity and also ignore the teachings of the Fathers of the Church; those men who represent the teachings of the Church prior to the canonozation of the New Testament, 350 years after the time of Christ. The teachings of the Fathers are important in that they represent the teachings of the Church that wrote and canonized the Bible, the same Bible (almost) that is used by both Catholics and Protestants alike.
God Bless
< Message edited by TimL -- 4/20/2005 9:49:02 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 9:47:48 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
My view on the need of the office of pope? By their fruit ye shall know them.
Dear JoToP,
Judging by the last several who have taken on the evils of both capitalism and communism, not to mention defending revelation against the godless, not to mention the half godless, we are on a roll. Maybe y'all ought to get y'alls selves one.
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 9:58:15 PM
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jgarden
Posts: 62
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The Pope can be a force for good on the world stage unlike any other Christian leader. Unfortunately, there is a disconnect between the Vatican and many of its adherents on a multitude of issues. Jesus was relevant to the people to whom He ministered: there is no virtue in dealing with the world as it was, as opposed to the way it is!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 10:01:24 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jgarden
The Pope can be a force for good on the world stage unlike any other Christian leader. Unfortunately, there is a disconnect between the Vatican and many of its adherents on a multitude of issues. Jesus was relevant to the people to whom He ministered: there is no virtue in dealing with the world as it was, as opposed to the way it is!
Dear jgarden,
All things considered, I am glad there is a disconnect between the Vatican and many so-called adherents on a multitude of issues. If only these latter would see themselves in need of a change of attitude.
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 10:19:24 PM
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jgarden
Posts: 62
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Allowing Cardinal Law (Boston) to conduct a Mass just prior to the election of a new Pope, shows a total lack of understanding of the dilemma Catholics are facing in North America. The Vatican just doesn't get it!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 11:28:53 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jgarden
Allowing Cardinal Law (Boston) to conduct a Mass just prior to the election of a new Pope, shows a total lack of understanding of the dilemma Catholics are facing in North America. The Vatican just doesn't get it!
Dear jgarden,
Cardinal Law celebrated one of the Masses in mourning of Pope John Paul II, because he, Cardinal Law, is the pastor of one of the four major churches in Rome, and the pastor of that church, by custom, celebrates one of these Masses. You might say, and I would agree, that he should have declined to do so, because he would call more attention to himself than to the late pope. However, in the interregum, there is no one in the Vatican with the authority to order him to do this. I'm not defending Law, just explaining what I think happened.
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 11:36:10 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: Andy M
What is his job? Are you serious? He runs the 1 billion member Catholic Church...every aspect of the Church.
What's even more serious and sinful is that according to pope Leo XIII in his encyclical "The Reunion of Christendom" (1885), the pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty"!
He is, according to Catholic dogma, the ruler of the world (and the underworld), as well as the ruler of the Roman Catholic Church. He is just like Jacob the supplanter -- he supplants Christ on earth.
Hope you're not planning to kiss his feet and call him "Holy Father", a title he has usurped from the Lord God Almighty. Such blasphemy! Peter called Rome "Babylon" exactly for this reason.
Dear Ezra,
That paragraph is: "But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, who when about to return to heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest prayer, that His disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray ... that they all may be one, as thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us. And as this divine prayer and supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the unity of divine faith. "
As I have said before, the pope is Christ's vicar, not His replacement. I am proud to call him "Holy Father." The Lord God Almighty is a Trinity, one Person of which is "The Father."
Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/20/2005 11:50:04 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
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Nothing like a bit o' context, eh, sdaw?
Pax,
Michael, the Ratzfan.
[There was no doubt in my mind that the Holy Spirit would prevail over the U.S. Catholic liberal agenda. Not so sorry there are a few disappointed name-only "Catholics" around.]
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 12:32:56 AM
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son_of_angels
Posts: 7
Joined: 4/21/2005
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Ezra, you said
"Hope you don't plan to kiss his feet and call him Holy Father, a name he has usurped"
If I meet him any time, I most certainly will. He is the Vicar of Christ, the foundation, existent upon the one foundation of Christ, of all of Christendom, and the Church entrusted to him. His characterization as "Holy Father" is not something he has "usurped" from God but something which represents that aspect of God. Rather, he does not receive the title upon the basis that he holds it exclusively, even along with, God, but because God IS the Holy Father. His office, based exclusively upon the Fatherhood of God and the Kingship of Christ, is representative to mankind of those two aspects of God. Furthermore, these titles and, indeed, his authority are the perfect icon of the saving work and authority of the Risen Christ, just as the Blessed Virgin Mary is the perfect image of chastity and motherhood.
Long Live the Pope, Vicar of Christ, Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World!
Praise Christ our King!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 7:01:55 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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Dear Ezra,
Besides, one kisses his ring, not his feet. One kisses the ring of any bishop. The ring is the symbol of his authority, all of which flows from the Father, through Christ, to His Church.
On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 11:41:17 AM
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Pyre
Posts: 30
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Pit is renovating... stuck at VCU
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quote:
What is the pope for? What is his job? What is his purpose? I dont see what the big deal is
He runs the Catholic church, and because of history and position is still one of the most powerful people in the world.
quote:
O.k.-but what is the purpose of the pope, if he is nessessary? This is new to me. I never looked into the whole pope thing. If I am pope to me, then why do we need an actual pope?
If your not catholic then you dont really need a pope, if you are then you do, since its one of the pillars the church is based on. (unless your eastern catholic)
_____________________________
I less than three Maynard
Touched By His Noodly Appendage, Im a Pastafarian. (hehe that sounds funny)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 11:48:09 AM
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Pyre
Posts: 30
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Pit is renovating... stuck at VCU
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quote:
Unfortunately, there is a disconnect between the Vatican and many of its adherents on a multitude of issues. Jesus was relevant to the people to whom He ministered: there is no virtue in dealing with the world as it was, as opposed to the way it is!
Of course this is because Jesus would always adjust his teachings to be more favorable to people of the time? I dont get it, some things are right and some are wrong, if theres a disconnect between the vatican and its adherents maybe the adherents need to look at whether or not they are actually believing the right things....
quote:
All things considered, I am glad there is a disconnect between the Vatican and many so-called adherents on a multitude of issues. If only these latter would see themselves in need of a change of attitude.
Yes, its better to lose followers for what is right, then gain followers and lose your souls... This is true in any case, whether it be religion, politics or life.
_____________________________
I less than three Maynard
Touched By His Noodly Appendage, Im a Pastafarian. (hehe that sounds funny)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 11:48:24 AM
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son_of_angels
Posts: 7
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Pyre,
for quick correction a true "Eastern Catholic" as opposed to "Eastern Orthodox" (although I dislike the terminology, as only the Roman Church is both catholic and orthodox, seems the easterners have hijacked the term, like the terms "Church of Christ" the "Disciples of Christ" and "Assembly of God" all properly belonging to Christ's Church, the Holy Catholic Church) anyway DOES believe the pope to be instrumental to his faith. An Eastern Catholic, or, more properly, the Eastern Church sui juris admits that the Successor of St. Peter has the power of primacy and infallibility, and is the foundation of the True Church on Earth. An "Eastern Orthodox" member does not acknowledge these essential doctrines.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 12:15:55 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
[Original post deleted for violating TOS #6]
God bless you Catholics ...!
Catherwood
Dear Catherwood,
He can. He does. John Paul II was a blessing. I believe Benedict XVI will be another.
Thank you for your concern.
On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
< Message edited by BenQuebec -- 4/21/2005 2:41:40 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 12:58:41 PM
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superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
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Sorry but the Orthodox Church did not "hijack" those terms. The fact is the Orthodoc Church is the one that has remained true to the faith and teaching of the Apostles. The Roman church has added many new doctrines over the years that were never taught nor believed by the early Church. A lttle serious research on the internet will prove this beyond doubt.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/21/2005 1:58:22 PM
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bettyg51
Posts: 28
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: catherwood
[Original post deleted for violating TOS #6]
I think this post is a TOS violation.
< Message edited by BenQuebec -- 4/21/2005 2:38:29 PM >
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I am guessing that only someone of your Faith would propose that God might have difficulty doing something. We Catholics believe that God CAN do anything.