Purgatory and life after death (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Purgatory and life after death (4/11/2005 1:52:48 PM)

This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.

Why do catholics and protestants disagree on life after death?

Is there a purgatory? What happens when I die?

Discuss those questions and the differences in this doctrine.



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/11/2005 9:59:24 PM)

Catholic doctrine concerning Purgatory is very brief.

There is a purification of all attachment to sin which follows death.

Those undergoing this purification are helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Questions concerning the nature of Purgatory, its location, and its duration are all theological opinion, however well or ill-founded they may be.

Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!



gtbecksr -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/12/2005 5:21:54 PM)

Why do we need to be "purified" after death?

1 Peter 1:21-23 (New King James Version)
21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

Acts 13:38-39 (New King James Version)
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Justified means:
To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

Hebrews 10:1-3 (New King James Version)
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

Hebrews 10:11-18 (New King James Version)
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Are we saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross wasn't good enough to cleanse us from our sins therefore we have to go to purgatory to "finish the job"?



Hischild1994 -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/13/2005 10:49:47 AM)

Did the Pope go to purgatory when he passed away?



GoodME -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/13/2005 5:55:03 PM)

quote:

Catholic doctrine concerning Purgatory is very brief. There is a purification of all attachment to sin, which follows death. Those undergoing this purification are helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Questions concerning the nature of Purgatory, its location, and its duration are all theological opinion, however well or ill-founded they may be.


There is more to it than this, actually. Purgatory also serves the purpose of serving temporal punisihments for sins.

Anyone want to see a dissertation on that - just holler.

Those from the old site should be familiar with "Jesus doesn't give the car back".



GoodME -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/13/2005 5:57:00 PM)

quote:

Did the Pope go to purgatory when he passed away?

If he needed to, he did. I find it hard to believe - based on my understanding of this doctrine - that he would require much time there.

At least, that's my prayer to God for him, the cute ol' guy.



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/13/2005 6:55:24 PM)

Dear gtbecksr,

Jesus' death and resurrection were sufficient for the forgiveness of sin. That is not what we are talking about here. Nor, strictly speaking, are we talking about the forgiveness of sin. That has been taken care of as well.
Even sin that has been forgiven may require expiation. Ask Moses.
Ask David.
It comes down to a question of one's view of how the justification and sanctification of the believer is achieved. If we are simply "covered by the Blood," as if the Father does not see us as we are, then Purgatory makes no sense. If the the final achievement of sanctification is that we truly become what we are said to be, then that small part of us which is not yet fully reconciled to God must be restored to Him.
No one impure may enter Heaven. If he does, Heaven will become Hell for him. As sin is an act of the will, so must the will be brought into final accord with God.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/13/2005 6:59:21 PM)

Dear GoodME,

As I have said, there is a great deal of theological opinion. Theological opinion, no matter how well reasoned, is not binding belief.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



gambit -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/19/2005 4:31:46 PM)

Does the Catholic Church view purgatory as the same place as Abraham's Bosom?



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/19/2005 6:18:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gambit

Does the Catholic Church view purgatory as the same place as Abraham's Bosom?


Dear gambit,

I don't think the Church is locked into the concept of purgatory as a "place" at all. It might be. It might be an event or a process.
But, even assuming it to be a place, it is not the same as Abraham's Bosom. To put it simply, Abraham's Bosom was a kind of holding tank for the pre-Christ saved until the Gates of Heaven were opened by Christ's death and resurrection. There is not need for it anymore.
By the way, that is popular theological opinion, not a formal teaching of the Church.

Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!



gambit -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/20/2005 9:10:03 AM)

Dear sdaw,

Yes, I agree about our view of Abraham's Bosom. I just wasn't sure if that was the Catholic Church's interpretation as well. Of course, the Bible does not mention purgatory at all.

I've read that pugatory was something that the Catholic Church made up as a way to raise funds by charging people to pray for their loved ones to be released from this place. I'm not sure if this is true or not.



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/20/2005 12:51:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gambit

Dear sdaw,

Yes, I agree about our view of Abraham's Bosom. I just wasn't sure if that was the Catholic Church's interpretation as well. Of course, the Bible does not mention purgatory at all.

I've read that pugatory was something that the Catholic Church made up as a way to raise funds by charging people to pray for their loved ones to be released from this place. I'm not sure if this is true or not.


Dear gambit,

Although Purgatory was understood and used that way by some, it was not "made up" for that purpose.
The Council of Trent forbade for all time the attachment of an indulgence to almsgiving. It is not unlike shutting the barn door after the horse has escaped, but that's the way it is. It is customary to offer a stipend (usually around $10 in the US) for a priest to offer a Mass for one's intention, whatever that may be. Usually, the priest may only say one such Mass a day, and only for one such stipend. It is sort of like a "love-offering." One may ask a priest to offer a Mass for one's intention, and make no such stipend, and the priest is "required" to offer the Mass for that intention. It is hardly a money-making venture, although many missionaries are supported this way.

Viva il papa!
Es lebe der Papst!



gambit -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 8:48:53 AM)

They spoke about that issue briefly in the movie Luther, I was wondering about it afterwards. Thanks.



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 8:52:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gambit

They spoke about that issue briefly in the movie Luther, I was wondering about it afterwards. Thanks.


Dear gambit,

Anytime! God bless you for asking.

On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



anti-sin -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 9:01:12 AM)

I beleive that Purgatory is a man made story to keep people in check with the church. I dont believe that there is anything in the Bible that speaks of this. So Please enlighten me.

PS. the Pope needs to be saved too. I wonder if he has come to a time when he died to his sins...hmm



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 12:49:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anti-sin

I beleive that Purgatory is a man made story to keep people in check with the church. I dont believe that there is anything in the Bible that speaks of this. So Please enlighten me.

PS. the Pope needs to be saved too. I wonder if he has come to a time when he died to his sins...hmm



Dear anti-sin,

For a link to enlightment go to www.newadvent.com and look up "Purgatory"
The Pope died to his sins in Baptism. If his life did not bear out his commitment to Christ,
his salvation experience was in vain. This is true of everyone. Have you died to your sins?. . .hmm

On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



anti-sin -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 1:11:36 PM)

I died to my sins not only in an "act" of baptism but I also died to my sins when Jesus Broke me and I came to a saving faith an have been on fire for about 1 year now. But I was baptised about 5 years ago. What I am saying is that Baptism isnt what saves you its an outward profession of your faith in Christ. But when You are broken and reach out to christ thats what really counts. But I am open minded and will look into this purgatory stuff. But I want verses Brother.



anti-sin -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 1:13:06 PM)

Checked it out and I see nothing of it in the bible...please scriptures?



ToolmanUF -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 4:09:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anti-sin

Checked it out and I see nothing of it in the bible...please scriptures?


This argument is useless as Catholics/ Orthodox have more books in their Bibles than Protestants. Also, Catholics don't accept the Bible as the sole rule of faith, but also the traditions of the church, ancient apostolic writings, church/ papal declarations, and the decisions of the councils.

So, a Catholic will quote a book from the deuterocanonical book, a letter from St. Augustine, or a creed from an ecumenical council as their proof for Purgatory and the Protestant won't accept it as authoritive. Thus, I guess both sides need to just accept the others beliefs.



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 4:26:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anti-sin

Checked it out and I see nothing of it in the bible...please scriptures?


Dear anti-sin,

Purgatory is an implicit, not explicit doctrine of Scripture.

On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



anti-sin -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 5:30:39 PM)

ok..so good for u?



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/21/2005 8:42:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anti-sin

ok..so good for u?


Dear anti-sin,

It's good for me.

On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



manwe -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/27/2005 6:19:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Dear gtbecksr,

Jesus' death and resurrection were sufficient for the forgiveness of sin. That is not what we are talking about here. Nor, strictly speaking, are we talking about the forgiveness of sin. That has been taken care of as well.
Even sin that has been forgiven may require expiation. Ask Moses.
Ask David.
It comes down to a question of one's view of how the justification and sanctification of the believer is achieved. If we are simply "covered by the Blood," as if the Father does not see us as we are, then Purgatory makes no sense. If the the final achievement of sanctification is that we truly become what we are said to be, then that small part of us which is not yet fully reconciled to God must be restored to Him.
No one impure may enter Heaven. If he does, Heaven will become Hell for him. As sin is an act of the will, so must the will be brought into final accord with God.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!


Okay, I can understand this position, I don't agree with it, but this post helps me understand it.

I personally believe the blood of Christ washes our sins away, such that God doesn't see us for what we are (sinners)

e.g., Isaiah 43:25 "I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Because of the shed blood of Christ and because of God's mercy our sins are blotted out and at death whatever attachments to sin we may have, in the power of the Spirit, we are transformed, renewed, and healed. The attachements to sin will no longer be there.



sdaw -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/27/2005 6:30:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manwe

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Dear gtbecksr,

Jesus' death and resurrection were sufficient for the forgiveness of sin. That is not what we are talking about here. Nor, strictly speaking, are we talking about the forgiveness of sin. That has been taken care of as well.
Even sin that has been forgiven may require expiation. Ask Moses.
Ask David.
It comes down to a question of one's view of how the justification and sanctification of the believer is achieved. If we are simply "covered by the Blood," as if the Father does not see us as we are, then Purgatory makes no sense. If the the final achievement of sanctification is that we truly become what we are said to be, then that small part of us which is not yet fully reconciled to God must be restored to Him.
No one impure may enter Heaven. If he does, Heaven will become Hell for him. As sin is an act of the will, so must the will be brought into final accord with God.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!


Okay, I can understand this position, I don't agree with it, but this post helps me understand it.

I personally believe the blood of Christ washes our sins away, such that God doesn't see us for what we are (sinners)

e.g., Isaiah 43:25 "I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Because of the shed blood of Christ and because of God's mercy our sins are blotted out and at death whatever attachments to sin we may have, in the power of the Spirit, we are transformed, renewed, and healed. The attachements to sin will no longer be there.


Dear manwe,

I am glad that we have achieved some understanding, if not agreement.

I would say, that after whatever Purgatory is, the Blood of Christ has washed the last trace of sin away. We are no longer sinners, but righteous. God then sees us as we are. All praise be to Him!

On the Feast of St. John of Constantinople
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



bettyg51 -> RE: Purgatory and life after death (4/28/2005 2:50:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF

quote:

ORIGINAL: anti-sin

Checked it out and I see nothing of it in the bible...please scriptures?


This argument is useless as Catholics/ Orthodox have more books in their Bibles than Protestants. Also, Catholics don't accept the Bible as the sole rule of faith, but also the traditions of the church, ancient apostolic writings, church/ papal declarations, and the decisions of the councils.

So, a Catholic will quote a book from the deuterocanonical book, a letter from St. Augustine, or a creed from an ecumenical council as their proof for Purgatory and the Protestant won't accept it as authoritive. Thus, I guess both sides need to just accept the others beliefs.

Hi anti-sin,
Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." True repentance requires making amends for the sins we have commited. If I steal something, I have not really repented if I don't pay back what I stole. It would not be fair to send people with minor (venial) sins (1 Jn 5:14-17) to hell, so there must be some way for the sins for which one has repented to finish the process of making amends. None of us are perfect when we get to heaven. We all have a tendency to sin, so how do we get to where we no longer have a tendency to sin? Something must happen to us after we die.

1 Cor 3:12 "If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." The people Paul is talking about can't be people who are going to hell because they will be saved. So some people will be saved, but will be purified through fire.

Mt 12:31 "Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This implies that some sins will be forgiven in the age to come. It doesn't make sense that these sins would be mortal sins, because those who commit mortal sin go to hell and will not be forgiven. So the sins that are forgiven in the age to come are minor (venial) sins.

Here are some more verses about Purgatory:

Lk 12:59; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-14, ... God's painful discipline.
Heb 12:23 to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
1 Pet 3:19 ... he also went to preach to the spirits in prison (purgatory?).
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
God bless,
Betty G.



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