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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 2:09:51 AM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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quote:
scripture is very clear that works does not Justify us before God
Oh yes...crystal.
Jas 2:21 -
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:24 -
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 -
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 3:20:55 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
Now concerning what James says about works. It's two aspects of one glorious truth. James is speaking of what MEN SEE concerning faith. Paul is speaking of what GOD SEES. If one truly believes God, he'll ACT upon God's word. scripture is very clear that works does not Justify us before God, but if one claims to believe God, he'll demonstrate this by ACTING upon his word. (see Hebrews 11:13)
James 2:18 " SHEW ME thy faith without works , and I WILL SHEW YOU my faith BY MY WORKS"
Romans 4:2 " If Abraham were Justified by works , he hath whereof to glory, *BUT NOT BEFORE GOD*"
"BEFORE GOD"
[edited by moderator for formatting]
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 2/21/2006 9:35:15 AM >
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 2:43:53 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
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From: Mississippi
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Who says James is just talking about what men see and not what God sees. Your interpretation does not square with the text or with the Tradition.
As for these works no being before God, Romans 2:6 begs to differ. Seems very much before God to me.
I'll stick with what has been taught since the foundation of the Church... not with such innovations as you seem to be advocating.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 4:56:04 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
Now concerning what James says about works. It's two aspects of one glorious truth. James is speaking of what MEN SEE concerning faith. Paul is speaking of what GOD SEES. If one truly believes God, he'll ACT upon God's word. scripture is very clear that works does not Justify us before God, but if one claims to believe God, he'll demonstrate this by ACTING upon his word. (see Hebrews 11:13)
James 2:18 " SHEW ME thy faith without works , and I WILL SHEW YOU my faith BY MY WORKS"
Romans 4:2 " If Abraham were Justified by works , he hath whereof to glory, *BUT NOT BEFORE GOD*"
"BEFORE GOD"
[edited by moderator for formatting]
Thanks moderator! 
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 5:03:19 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Who says James is just talking about what men see and not what God sees. Your interpretation does not square with the text or with the Tradition.
As for these works no being before God, Romans 2:6 begs to differ. Seems very much before God to me.
I'll stick with what has been taught since the foundation of the Church... not with such innovations as you seem to be advocating.
That's fine brother, it's not like you were gonna change your entire doctrinal stance in the first place. Purgatory is unscriptural IMO.
Believe what you will brother, I could give you a thousand scriptures and you wouldn't acknowledge it anyway. God bless
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 5:08:03 PM
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SuperFork
Posts: 96
Joined: 6/17/2005
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quote:
I may have missed how you reconcile this with 1 John 5:16-17
KJV "16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
NRSV "16 If you see your brother or sister F26 committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God F27 will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal."
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
I do not know what this passage means.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 5:36:01 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
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From: Mississippi
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Dear Save 34,
I don't believe in purgatory either.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 5:38:54 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Save 34,
I don't believe in purgatory either.
 Wow!
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 6:28:35 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/21/2006 8:06:14 PM
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SuperFork
Posts: 96
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quote:
Because Christians base our doctrine on the word of God. Roman Catholics base their doctrines on the word of the pope.
Catholics are Christians. The believe in Jesus and that is all that matters
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[Deleted] - 2/21/2006 8:54:03 PM
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/22/2006 1:43:32 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Save 34,
I don't believe in purgatory either.
Just to help clarify Unworthyseraphim's statement.
Here's a brief snippet from www.goarch.org, the Greek Orthodox dicoese of America's site:
quote:
"Our physical death, a consequence of the first man's sin that we still suffer, can be seen in two ways:
1. negatively, as a kind of catastrophe, especially for those who do not believe in Christ and life everlasting in Him; and
2. positively, as the end of a maturation process, which leads us to the encounter with our Maker. Christ has destroyed the power of the "last enemy," death (1 Cor. 18:26).
A Christian worthy of the name is not afraid of this physical death insofar as it is not accompanied by a spiritual or eternal (eschatological) death.
A partial judgment is instituted immediately after our physical death, which places us in an intermediate condition of partial blessedness (for the righteous), or partial suffering (for the unrighteous).
Disavowing a belief in the Western "Purgatory," our Church believes that a change is possible during this intermediate state and stage. The Church, militant and triumphant, is still one, which means that we can still influence one another with our prayers and our saintly (or ungodly) life. This is the reason why we pray for our dead. Also, almsgiving on behalf of the dead may be of some help to them, without implying, of course, that those who provide the alms are in some fashion "buying" anybody's salvation. "
source
In some ways the Eastern Church and the Western Church simply see things from a different angle. The Roman Catholics see this possibility of cleansing as an actual place, whereas the Eastern Orthodox sees it as a process. I'm stuck somewhere in between seeing as I'm becoming a Byzantine Catholic. In the end, the result is still the same. The idea that prayers on the behalf of the departed can be fruitful is the key. It's a bleif that is attested to throughout history, dating back to ancient Judaism. In fact, it's still a part of Judaism today as well. I believe I posted a bit about the Jewish mourner's Kaddish earlier in the thread, which is essentially a precursor to the more defined idea of Purgatory.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/24/2006 12:42:42 AM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
Joined: 6/22/2005
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superfork,
As for the earlier post, the question you asked was whether someone could pay the penalty without being guilty. The example I gave was someone paying the penalty without being guilty.
As for the passage:
NRSV "16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal."
I chose the NRSV because it actually uses the words MORTAL sin. In other words, the distinction is made between sin that is mortal and sin that is not mortal. In the ESV:
1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jo 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
I think the meaning is rather uncomplicated, but what do you think it means?
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/24/2006 12:46:30 AM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
Joined: 6/22/2005
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Lurker,
Not to pick nits, but...
quote:
The Roman Catholics see this possibility of cleansing as an actual place, whereas the Eastern Orthodox sees it as a process.
From the CCC, paragraph 1030 and 1031:
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606
It is a state/process not necessarily a place.
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/24/2006 12:50:49 AM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
Joined: 6/22/2005
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saved34
In your post #125, I am still unclear as to what you intended concerning the scripture passages you provided. The works that Paul was discussing focused on the works of the law, not the works of Christ or more specifically, the works of Christ working through us.
Additionally I did not catch your answser to:
quote:
Where in scripture do you develop this doctrine, that works follow salvation but have nothing to do with it? I mean, is there a specific verse that clearly states this principle? Particularly in light of James 2:26 "26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead" which in any case, would make the connection of faith and works like the body and the spirit. Does the spirit flow from the body?
Did I miss your answer?
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/24/2006 9:53:36 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: milesjesu
Lurker,
Not to pick nits, but...
quote:
The Roman Catholics see this possibility of cleansing as an actual place, whereas the Eastern Orthodox sees it as a process.
From the CCC, paragraph 1030 and 1031:
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606
It is a state/process not necessarily a place.
Peace,
MilesJesu
That's the Latin rite Catechism. :)
As I mentioned, the Western and Eastern Churches believe in the same things, but see them from different angles. In the east, there was never a need to formally declare what the process of purification is and give it a name. We tend to keep things simple. As such, Purgatory is one of them. To an Eastern Rite Christian, they simply believe that some sor tof cleansing is possible and occurs. They don't really go into too many details on if it's a place or a process or both, and they don't feel a need to name it. The Church says we are purified and that our prayers on the behalf of the dead are beneficial, so we believe.
:)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/24/2006 11:33:04 PM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
Joined: 6/22/2005
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Lurker,
Good thing I wasn't try to nit any more picks! I would have really overstepped my bounds.
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/25/2006 1:01:25 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: milesjesu
Lurker,
Good thing I wasn't try to nit any more picks! I would have really overstepped my bounds.
Peace,
MilesJesu
Don't fret. :) I'm grateful that we could help further each other's understandings. :)
Your words weren't out of malice, but out of brotherly love. Therefore I am grateful for them. :D
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/25/2006 1:53:18 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
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quote:
Because Christians base our doctrine on the word of God. Roman Catholics base their doctrines on the word of the pope.
Yeah, this is how it works......your use of "our" and "their" is noted, as well.
quote:
No.
It's simply a scheme by the Roman Catholic church to hold power over their followers.
Call the National Enquirer.......I believe we've found ourselves a scandal!!!!
You almost had me believing you because your spelling was so good.
Lurker, I am kind of "process" leaning about this, but recognize that "place" is an aspect of it (it is not Heaven, it is not hell, it is not "earth". It is a place that God is or isn't? The only place God "isn't" is hell, because God chooses to remove Himself from there, so that souls that have chosen to be absent eternal life with Him may be placed there, therefore this "place" of purgatory is ...., etc.).
If that's the kind of differences we are down to, hey - I can deal with that, man.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/26/2006 12:00:20 AM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
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Who says God is not in Hell?
He must be if any souls are there. In Him we live and move adn have our being. Where He is not, there is no being...even in hell.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/26/2006 1:09:00 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
Lurker, I am kind of "process" leaning about this, but recognize that "place" is an aspect of it (it is not Heaven, it is not hell, it is not "earth". It is a place that God is or isn't? The only place God "isn't" is hell, because God chooses to remove Himself from there, so that souls that have chosen to be absent eternal life with Him may be placed there, therefore this "place" of purgatory is ...., etc.).
If that's the kind of differences we are down to, hey - I can deal with that, man.
Perhaps it's both. I can see it as being the stairway to Heaven that Jacob saw. Along the way we are slowly cleansed and made pure, so that when we arrive at the heavenly gates, we're greeted by Our Lord who bids us enter into His kingdom.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/26/2006 2:27:27 AM
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Daylights_56
Posts: 33
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: Seattle, WA
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GoodMe,
Here is a good website that a Catholic apologist gave me, its a good read. I will warn you it is quite long.
http://www.envoymagazine.com/PlanetEnvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm
_____________________________
“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.” - St. Francis of Assisi
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/26/2006 7:33:52 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Daylights_56
GoodMe,
Here is a good website that a Catholic apologist gave me, its a good read. I will warn you it is quite long.
http://www.envoymagazine.com/PlanetEnvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm
Bless you for your link. Very good.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/26/2006 9:27:54 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
The only place God "isn't" is hell, because God chooses to remove Himself from there, so that souls that have chosen to be absent eternal life with Him may be placed there, therefore this "place" of purgatory is ...., etc.). quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Who says God is not in Hell?
He must be if any souls are there. In Him we live and move adn have our being. Where He is not, there is no being...even in hell. I agree with UWS. God is omnipresent, so that includes Hell as well.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 3/1/2006 8:54:50 PM
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SuperFork
Posts: 96
Joined: 6/17/2005
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Im a little late but...
quote:
Man, this is way not right, in my opinion. Again, an understanding of Leviticus and temple practice would help put this in perspective. Jesus was not being punished for sin - He was being VICTIMIZED BY it.
Isaiah 54:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
Jesus Christ was punished instead of us. Therefore there is no need for purgatory BECAUSE, how can we be "cleansed" of sin that has already been punished? Also,
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...
And we only have to ask for forgiveness ONCE, when we become christians. WHY? because it is then that Jesus has taken ALL of our sin on himself and is PUNISHED for it all, therefore making us CLEANSED OF ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
Ok, carry on.
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