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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/16/2006 8:00:32 PM
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SuperFork
Posts: 96
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quote:
I'm I forgiven? Perhaps. Is justice served and restored? Nope; I still have the car.
Perhaps?! PERHAPS? Perhaps you meant to say Absolutely!
What if i became a mass murderer and killed 20 million people...oooh thats pretty bad right? But then i come to my senses, am truly sorry, and ask for forgiveness for my sin. am i forgiven? ABSOLUTELY! WHY you say? I will TELL YOU my good friend!
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. oh, wait, does that include the so called "Mortal sins?" I mean, murder is pretty bad right? NO, well, its not any worse than all the other sins. WHY? WHY DO I CLAIM THAT ALL SIN IS EQUAL? THAT IS CRAZY YOU SAY? i say NOT.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life trough Christ Jesus our Lord.
ALL sin has the SAME price...DEATH. And ALL sin is forgiven COMPLETELY because the PRICE (wages) was PAID. Even if i kill 20 million people, I AM PERFECT IN THE EYES OF THE LORD. Therefore, no need for purgatory. I AM ALREADY PURIFIED (1 john 1:9)
TAKE THAT SUCKA 
< Message edited by SuperFork -- 2/16/2006 8:04:14 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/17/2006 1:05:31 AM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
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Not denying you your forgiveness - but....
How sincere is a confession of sin and a request for forgiveness from someone who still has the knife in their hand?
You are denying the accountability of the temporal aspects of your actions. 20 million orphans, widows and grief strickened fellow humans. The Bible tells us in a number of places that a profession of Faith is not a "get out of jail free" card. Paul begins Chapter 2 of Romans with a nice description of final judgement being a review of performance, not privelege. We are repayed according to our perserverence in good works or our selfish disobedience of the truth and our obedience to wickedness. In 1 Cor 3, Paul alludes to a testing of one's "works" that is laid upon the foundation of Jesus. This description is speaking to the temporal punishments that are the results of sin choices - if one builds on the foundation with wood, hay and straw rather than with gold silver and precious stones - testing will reveal that work.
This is a description of final judgement. Building with newspaper doesn't condemn you, but there is a difference to building with rock and this will be revealed. There is a result and accountability; "the person will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). This is a description of temporal punishments - justice must be served.
The concept of purgatory then is a visualization of these Scriptural concepts. The bottom line - try not to sin, and if you offend - genuinely seek to right it or seek forgiveness from the offended. Settle your dispute before being taken to the judge, who will throw you to the guard, who will imprison you - and you will not be released until every penny is paid (Matt 5:23-26).
Note that - when the last penny is paid - you get released. That last penny is the last remant of temporal punishments. Then - justice is served and the soul is clean.
That is what is involved in purgatory.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/17/2006 2:46:58 PM
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SuperFork
Posts: 96
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actually, my example was inaccurate. I made it sound like i would be forgiven after i ASKED for forgiveness when in fact, i was forgiven before i asked. When i became a christian, then my sin was forgiven. Although i ask for forgiveness on killing 20 million people, i am already forgiven. I simply ask because i truly am sorry. I could have killed 20 million people, NOT asked for forgiveness and went about my business, and would have been forgiven (That is, if i was a christian). Why? because Jesus paid for my sin in full, HE became guilty for my sin on the cross. HE was punished for my sin.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/17/2006 3:05:24 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
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From: Mississippi
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"Why? because Jesus paid for my sin in full, HE became guilty for my sin on the cross. HE was punished for my sin. "
Not exactly...actually not even close on the last two points. He did pay for our sin in a sense...but He did not become guilty...He was and is ever guiltless. Nor was He punished for our sin...though He died to give His life for us and for the whole word.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/17/2006 10:55:59 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
"Why? because Jesus paid for my sin in full, HE became guilty for my sin on the cross. HE was punished for my sin. "
Not exactly...actually not even close on the last two points. He did pay for our sin in a sense...but He did not become guilty...He was and is ever guiltless. Nor was He punished for our sin...though He died to give His life for us and for the whole word.
2Corinthians 5:21 " For he made HIM (to be is in italics) SIN for us"
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he has borne our grief and carried our sorrows"
Isaiah 53:5 " But he was wounded FOR OUR transgressions, he was BRUISED FOR OUR INIQUITIES"
Isaiah 53:6 "THE LORD HATH LAID ON HIM...THE...INIQUITY...OF...US...A-L-L"
Isaiah 53:11 " He (God) shall see the travail of his (Jesus) soul, AND....SHALL...BE....SATISFIED: by his (Jesus) knowledge shall my righteous servant JUSTIFY many; FOR HE(Jesus) shall BEAR THERE INIQUITIES"
Isaiah 53:12 " HE BARE THE SIN OF MANY". Gods Justice has been met at the terrible cost of our Lord's life.
Isaiah 53:10 " It pleased the LORD TO BRUISE HIM" this is why God can be Just and the Justifier of rotten sinners like us.
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2006 12:42:43 AM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
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From: Mississippi
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Dear Saved34
You are reading those verses from the forensic pov, not the ontological. The meanings and interpretations of those verses read from the ontological perspective are quite different from the forensic view you are used to. I dispute nothing in the verses...just your understanding of them.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2006 3:46:12 AM
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Giulia
Posts: 887
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From: Giulia
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He became sin for us.
Even God the Father could not look at Him on the cross because God cannot look on sin and that is exactly what Jesus became.
I don't know nor wish what theological jargon you are talking unworthy seraphim and you keep up with that thinking you will not be converted from unworthy to worthy.
_____________________________
Rejected by the world but loved by heaven
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2006 10:33:23 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Saved34
You are reading those verses from the forensic pov, not the ontological. The meanings and interpretations of those verses read from the ontological perspective are quite different from the forensic view you are used to. I dispute nothing in the verses...just your understanding of them.
Or, you could be talking around in circles to prove some man made point. I'm sorry friend, but I look at these verses from the *FAITH* point of view. It's the age old man made argument, "God must require us to do something else besides Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?"
Remember brother, man by wisdom knows not the things of God - 1Corinthians 1:18-31
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by WISDOM knew not God, it pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching to SAVE...THEM...THAT...BELIEVE"
You're allowing Satan to over complicate the Gospel brother. "Believe and be Saved" is the Holy command to all mankind. Not forensic interpretations.
It's very simple, mankind is sold under sin -Romans 5:12-14
God's Holy and righteous Law has declared mankind, both religious and unreligious condemned and under sin even those who vainly attempted to keep the good works found in the Law of Moses - Romans Romans 3:9-20
But now God himself has provided a Righteous covering for all who place their trust in his beloved Son, in fact, this is the ONLY righteousness that is accepted of God - Romans 3:21-28.
God IMPUTES Righteousness to the person who accepts Christ redeeming work - Romans 4:24, 25
Sin in the actual life of the Saint is taken up effectively by the Holy Spirit who literally upon faith in Christ Baptizes us into the death burial and Resurrection of our Lord - Romans 6:3-13 ; Ephesians 1:13 ; 1Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 5:22; Romans 8:11
"But if the Spirit of of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies BY HIS SPIRIT"
Our STANDING before God is completely secure, but our actual STATE needs to be brought into compliance with that.
Standing - Romans 5:1 " Therefore being JUSTIFIED by faith, WE HAVE peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
State - Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren , by the MERCIES of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice , holy, acceptable unto God, WHICH IS YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE"
Loss of rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ is the penalty for believers who live defeated lives on earth - 2 Corinthians 5:10
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2006 7:14:28 PM
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Giulia
Posts: 887
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From: Giulia
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AMEN to that!!!
_____________________________
Rejected by the world but loved by heaven
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2006 7:41:58 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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Funny how different they look to my *faith* compared to yours...unless of course you are just repeating some man made point of view. They probly looked different in Joseph Smiths *Faith* reading as well. It is simply not useful to call your reading the *faith* reading and mine the *man made* before you know anything about it.
Do you know the differece that approaching these verses with an onotlogical predisposition rather than a foresinc one reveals? How can you be so sure of your forensic reading when you know nothing of the ontologial reading? You are willing to dismiss as a doctrine of man something you know little or nothing about. Did you know the ontological reading antedates the forensic by about 400 years. The way you read these verses was unknown for the first 400+ years of Christianity. No one read them and interpreted them as you are doing. So who is following a doctrine of man?
Here is the key difference. The Forensic view is vested in casting salvation in juridical/courtroom terms, expressing salvation (without really comprehending what it is) in terms of debit/and accounting and guilt and crime and punishment. Righteouness is funamentally a marker in a ledger...it "counts for us but is fundamentally inaccessible to us. Right relationship with God is established by the satiesfaction of a legal breech. The ontological understands salvation in terms of a broken ontology. Our original communion of God was lost and thus our life. Sin brouth death adn fear of death ushered in more sin. Our image was marred, our life forsaken, our ontological relationship with God severed. Christ through the whole of his Incarnation assumed all that humanity was in its fallen state, and in the crucifixtion he drank the cup of death for man...assuming his mortality, but being Life Himself death could not contain Him. The Father raised Him up and He trampled down death by death, rupturing the prison of Hades, trampling down its gates and leading captivity captive. In Him our ontology with God is restored for He is the 2nd Adam, He heals us from the corruption of this world. He restores us to the image of God unmarred adn then begins to lay upon it the colors of His likeness so that we may fulfill the calling of man creation back in the beginning to be both the image and likeness of God. Christ heals us. He didn't appease the wrath of God...who was never our enemy to begin with, He affirmed God's love for us and in Himself became the content and end of our Salvation.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2006 8:11:09 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Funny how different they look to my *faith* compared to yours...unless of course you are just repeating some man made point of view. They probly looked different in Joseph Smiths *Faith* reading as well. It is simply not useful to call your reading the *faith* reading and mine the *man made* before you know anything about it.
Do you know the differece that approaching these verses with an onotlogical predisposition rather than a foresinc one reveals? How can you be so sure of your forensic reading when you know nothing of the ontologial reading? You are willing to dismiss as a doctrine of man something you know little or nothing about. Did you know the ontological reading antedates the forensic by about 400 years. The way you read these verses was unknown for the first 400+ years of Christianity. No one read them and interpreted them as you are doing. So who is following a doctrine of man?
Here is the key difference. The Forensic view is vested in casting salvation in juridical/courtroom terms, expressing salvation (without really comprehending what it is) in terms of debit/and accounting and guilt and crime and punishment. Righteouness is funamentally a marker in a ledger...it "counts for us but is fundamentally inaccessible to us. Right relationship with God is established by the satiesfaction of a legal breech. The ontological understands salvation in terms of a broken ontology. Our original communion of God was lost and thus our life. Sin brouth death adn fear of death ushered in more sin. Our image was marred, our life forsaken, our ontological relationship with God severed. Christ through the whole of his Incarnation assumed all that humanity was in its fallen state, and in the crucifixtion he drank the cup of death for man...assuming his mortality, but being Life Himself death could not contain Him. The Father raised Him up and He trampled down death by death, rupturing the prison of Hades, trampling down its gates and leading captivity captive. In Him our ontology with God is restored for He is the 2nd Adam, He heals us from the corruption of this world. He restores us to the image of God unmarred adn then begins to lay upon it the colors of His likeness so that we may fulfill the calling of man creation back in the beginning to be both the image and likeness of God. Christ heals us. He didn't appease the wrath of God...who was never our enemy to begin with, He affirmed God's love for us and in Himself became the content and end of our Salvation.
Once again, you're over complicating things. You're confusing Reconciliation with Imputation. Romans 4:4 " Now to him that WORKETH is the reward not of grace , BUT OF DEPT"
Romans 4:5 "But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that JUSTIFIETH the ungodly, his FAITH is COUNTED for righteousness" - that's Imputation and that's very clear and simple.
Reconciliation is what you are reffering to. Although this also is IMPUTED to the believer. But in Christ we "TURN TO GOD FROM IDOLS TO SERVE THE LIVING AND TRUE GOD" - 1Thessalonians 1:9
Please donot confuse the two.
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 1:04:37 AM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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Dear Saved,
Something I hope you will understand...none of what I am saying is anything I've made up. This has been the teaching of the Church from as far back as we have record or memory.
And I'm not confusing anything...I'm trying to show you how the ancient church entered into and understood these passages. That's all.
What you do with that is your concern.
Reconciliation: To my knowledge there is no such thing as imputed reconciliation. That's like an imputed marriage....good luck with that one.
Our reconciliation with God is not forensic it is ontological.
Justification: Look again at Romans 4:5 where it says God justifyeth the ungodly. That is not vitural righteousnes but actual. God doesn't just "declare" someoen righteous forensically...He makes them actually righteous....which is ontological, and real.
Works: you really don't understand about works. Somewhere it is stuck in your head that works=works of the law=trying to earn salvation. This is just miguided and miles from the truth. Works are given us to infuse and show forth the salvation of God. The power is His, but we must cooperate..just as a patient must cooperate with his doctor and the prescribed regimine of therepy. That is how the patient is healed. And that is how we are healed (saved) in Christ. Salvation is not a static event..but a path and a journey of transformation and transfigureation.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 8:39:59 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Saved,
Something I hope you will understand...none of what I am saying is anything I've made up. This has been the teaching of the Church from as far back as we have record or memory.
And I'm not confusing anything...I'm trying to show you how the ancient church entered into and understood these passages. That's all.
What you do with that is your concern.
Reconciliation: To my knowledge there is no such thing as imputed reconciliation. That's like an imputed marriage....good luck with that one.
Our reconciliation with God is not forensic it is ontological.
Justification: Look again at Romans 4:5 where it says God justifyeth the ungodly. That is not vitural righteousnes but actual. God doesn't just "declare" someoen righteous forensically...He makes them actually righteous....which is ontological, and real.
Works: you really don't understand about works. Somewhere it is stuck in your head that works=works of the law=trying to earn salvation. This is just miguided and miles from the truth. Works are given us to infuse and show forth the salvation of God. The power is His, but we must cooperate..just as a patient must cooperate with his doctor and the prescribed regimine of therepy. That is how the patient is healed. And that is how we are healed (saved) in Christ. Salvation is not a static event..but a path and a journey of transformation and transfigureation.
With all due respect brother, what the "Ancient Church" taught has no bearing on what is clearly taught in scripture. I could give you lists upon lists of great men and women of the Faith who held the position of Salvation by Grace through Faith.
But that would be silly of me to do so. In fact, it's silly for the CC ,EOC, COG, and other earthly denominations to lay claim that THEY are the true Church. It reveals their spiritual ignorance to the utmost.
The legalizers of Galatia tried to use that same method of some sort of Apostolic authority to support their false teachings.
Galatians 2:6 "But of these who who seemed to be somewhat,(whatever they were, IT MAKETH NO MATTER TO ME:God accepteth NO MANS PERSON :)"
In respects to Salvation, works has absolutely nothing to do with it. Scripture is very clear on the matter
"For by Grace are ye saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD" "NOT OF WORKS,LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"- Ephesians 2:8,9
"NOT OF WORKS" includes the Law of moses, giving up cigarettes, abstaining from meats, giving to the poor, praying all night, giving your body to be burned, Not fornicating, not drinking, not gambling, not eating too much, attending Mass, faithfully attending service, going TO PURGATORY, fasting, and ALL OTHER "WORKS".
I'm dealing strictly with the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION. Let's be completely honest about it, if it's a Gift then it's a GIFT! If it's of works then it's Works, it cannot be both!
Romans 4:4 "Now to him that WORKETH is the reward NOT RECKONED OF GRACE, BUT...OF...D-E-P-T"
Works follow Salvation but they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. Nobody has to put rules and regulations on a Born Again believer, he has a new nature and " He delights in the Law of God" - Romans 7:22
What legalist and rule setters fail to realize is, Grace is Holy and POWERFUL. The same Grace that saves us also ENABLES us to live unto God.
Titus 2:11,12 "For the GRACE of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that denying ungodlyness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly , righteously, and godly , in this present world"
2Timothy 2:1 "Thou therefor my son , BE STRONG IN THE UNMERITED FAVOR AND KINDNESS(Grace) that is in Christ Jesus"
2Corinthians 12:9 "My GRACE is sufficient for thee:FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS"
Works has it's place in STEWARSHIP, but NOT in God's saving grace. Christ alone finished this work. All we can do is stand back and thank him for it.
John 6:28 "Then said they unto him , WHAT SHALL WE DO , THAT WE MIGHT WORK THE WORKS OF GOD?"
John 6:29 " Jesus answered and said unto them , THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE B-E-L-I-E-V-E on him whom he hath sent"
Luke 10:39 "Mary, which also SAT AT JESUS FEET and heard his word"
Luke 10:40 "But Martha was cumbered about MUCH SERVING, and came to him , and said Lord , DOST THOU NOT CARE that my sister left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me"
Luke 10:41 "And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:" BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND mARY HATH CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM HER"
May God grant us the wisdom to get our eyes off of our filthy works and let us all sit at rest near Our Lord's feet and learn. God cannot lie, he GAVE us Eternal life as a free gift. We cannot earn it or keep it.
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 12:53:15 PM
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SuperFork
Posts: 96
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
"Why? because Jesus paid for my sin in full, HE became guilty for my sin on the cross. HE was punished for my sin. "
Not exactly...actually not even close on the last two points. He did pay for our sin in a sense...but He did not become guilty...He was and is ever guiltless. Nor was He punished for our sin...though He died to give His life for us and for the whole word.
He was not guilty for sin? oh, then God turned his back on Jesus because....?
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Maybe God was just bored of Jesus.
____________________________________________________________
HOW could he pay for our sins and not be guilty? And HOW could he pay for our sin without being punished for them? THE punishment of sin is DEATH (separation from GOD)(Romans 6:23). Jesus WAS punished, Jesus WAS separated from God (Mat. 27:46) HOW can you say he was not punished? HOW??
And if Jesus was not punished for our sins, then we are ALL in debt. Because SOMEONE has to pay the price of sin. IT DOES NOT GO AWAY.
Romans 6:23
FOR THE WAGES (price) OF SIN IS DEATH....
If Jesus was not punished for our sins, THEN WE MUST PAY FOR THEM. AND THE PUNISHMENT IS SEPARATION FROM GOD (death).
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 1:45:35 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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Saved34,
quote:
With all due respect brother, what the "Ancient Church" taught has no bearing on what is clearly taught in scripture. I could give you lists upon lists of great men and women of the Faith who held the position of Salvation by Grace through Faith. Yes, and all the great Fathers of the Ancient Church believed this as well.
However, that is far from what you are explaining. You have not even gotten to the "through faith" part. You got hung up on the salvation of mankind. Your total misunderstanding of works is made manifest in every post you write.
UWS has just explained to you once again what it actually means, scripturally, what it has meant for the ages since the Apostles.
Here are the examples of your confusion or misunderstanding.
quote:
In respects to Salvation, works has absolutely nothing to do with it. Scripture is very clear on the matter Both I and UWS recognize this as we both have pointed this out to you. For me, several times, but we are not asking you to believe, but to follow the argument, follow what is actually being stated.
What you are referring to is the salvation of our souls or the sanctification of man as a believer. But the text refers to the salvation of mankind. That Christ overcame the fall, that Christ trampled down death. Man could not do this with any amount of works. How could man, a dead being, mortal, restore himself to life by simply doing good works?
quote:
"For by Grace are ye saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD" "NOT OF WORKS,LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"- Ephesians 2:8,9 It is all Grace. God does all the work on both sides of the justification through faith. But the point is this text has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do directly with our walk with God. this text is referrencing the saving of mankind which was done by Christ. It is NOT referencing our walk with Him. A freely chosen path to live our lives IN HIm. Because He lives, we can live AND WE CAN LIVE MORE ABUNDANTLY BECAUSE WE CAN LIVE IN HIM.
quote:
I'm dealing strictly with the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION. Let's be completely honest about it, if it's a Gift then it's a GIFT! If it's of works then it's Works, it cannot be both! Well, that is where you are confused on this matter. If you are actually speaking about the Gift then you are correct. But I and UWS have not been speaking of the Gift. We are speaking of the OFFER of that Gift to all mankind. By faith we accept and lay claim to the whole Gift. Once we accept, then it is all about walking in faith IN Christ. That takes work, lots of work to overcome the trials, temptations, the wiles of the devil who is seeking only to snare us away. It is man that chooses to accept or reject the Gift.
How this disussion even got connected to this thread about Purgatory is above me.
quote:
What legalist and rule setters fail to realize is, Grace is Holy and POWERFUL. The same Grace that saves us also ENABLES us to live unto God. Now, this is absolute Truth. But man is the only one that can permit God to rule via the Holy Spirit in his life. That is that free choice we make to accept and to remain IN HIm. Man, a believer is surely free to depart at any time, thus all the exhortations to the contrary.
quote:
Works has it's place in STEWARSHIP, but NOT in God's saving grace. Christ alone finished this work. All we can do is stand back and thank him for it. Ah, so you call it stewardship. Sanctification, walking in the Light, being transformed into His Likeness, that is what I have been speaking about all along. But you got confused and wanted to speak about the salvation of mankind. That part we cannot do with works, that part that Christ did for us, all of mankind. But sanctification is a mutual, synergistic walk to the saving of our souls. That is the work for which we were created to perform and the works made for us in which to walk. That is the salvation of our souls.
quote:
John 6:29 " Jesus answered and said unto them , THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE B-E-L-I-E-V-E on him whom he hath sent" Yes, it is all about believing having faith. We need to stay in the believing and having faith department. If we leave faith, or belief, then we are no longer being saved.
quote:
May God grant us the wisdom to get our eyes off of our filthy works and let us all sit at rest near Our Lord's feet and learn. God cannot lie, he GAVE us Eternal life as a free gift. We cannot earn it or keep it.
We have long ago. He gave eternal life to all of mankind. It is a Gift. But we need to accept that Gift and then be saved through faith. Being saved through faith is all about walking IN Christ which is a ton of works. Christ came not to abolish the law, but to establish it. Rom 3:31.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 4:10:28 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
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Wow - still trying to contemplate going to heaven with 20 million murders on your soul...
Where do I begin with some of the above?
Let's start with "Thou shalt not murder", or the NT version of that - "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
If we disobey the instruction, if we break the commandment, if we violate the teaching, any profession we would make about "Faith" is rendered meaningless. We clearly are acting one way, while verbalizing another.
So let's say that it is not 20 million murders, but one. And let's say that after the murder, there is true repentence and a true turning away from the former to a renewed self. Now, we are talking "born anew".
Within this nature is a new heart. A heart of compassion, a heart filled with love - and maybe even remorse. This remorse, this guilt, this shame IS an effective Grace from God. It motivtes us to seek to right our wrongs and to wrong no more. It is what acts within us to change us (obviously a serial murderer of 20 million people has no such burden on the soul).
This sense of justice and an illumination as to wrong and right IS what is the difference in a new nature, along wih the compulsion to act on these feelings. The righteous are just that - righteous. God makes them that way.
So your description of "get out of jail free" violates most every Scriptural instruction about Faith. Righteous is as righteous does - and the Creator of all that is righteous is God. It is this that God demands - not by instruction (The Law) but by the heart (Relationship). This is basic ot / NT stuff here.
So again, if the soul perishes without the resolution of just punishments (temporal effects of sin - not eternal), there is a repose of the soul - for justice to be done. God works this in the hearts and minds and lives of the victims.
When the smoke is clear - so is the soul.
This is shorthand to me for the difference in a real, lived Faith and a superficial professed Faith. Real Faith yields real change and real results - for the better. The other; in my experience many are "saved" in a moment of passion, walk up to an "altar call", and then....wonder what in the world this whole "Faith-thing" is supposed to be about, because they feel no change or no difference.
Change is something we have to work at and God supplies His Grace to allow that for us, if we would just yield to it and disobey our own impulses. In my mind - this should be true regardless to which denomination you subscribe for assistance in your walk.
How are some of the above posts not some sort of "legalism"? Another thread, I suppose.
A Faith that is not active and effective should be re-examined, per James.
There are a number of Pauline references for this concept of "just punishments" and "temporal punishments" along with Gospel references. I guess I'll get cracking on some references for you.
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"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 4:27:16 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
Works: you really don't understand about works. Somewhere it is stuck in your head that works=works of the law=trying to earn salvation. This is just miguided and miles from the truth. Works are given us to infuse and show forth the salvation of God. The power is His, but we must cooperate..just as a patient must cooperate with his doctor and the prescribed regimine of therepy. That is how the patient is healed. And that is how we are healed (saved) in Christ. Salvation is not a static event..but a path and a journey of transformation and transfigureation.
Man...I love this. Just what I wanted to say (just now going back and really READING).
This makes think of the following:
I get Ephesians 2:8-9 thrown at me all the time by those that profess what I am reading in some of these posts -
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast."
Funny how verse 10 is often left off of this citation, because you can't make your theology work if you include it:
"10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them."
God has prepared some good works out there, in advance, and He has created some in Jesus Christ. These creations are His (God's) handiwork, and they were created that they should live in those good works.
So in other words, and to paraphrase James on the subject (who was preaching against the very theology some are describing above), if you profess Faith and to be in God through Jesus, and you have no good works in your life - well guess what? You'd best sit and have a think on that. We are the instruments through which these actions happen - care, charity, love, worship. When we talk of God working miracles etc., we are always talking about people - doing God's work, under God's Grace, to acheive God's plan.
Not exactly purgatory - but it is a Salvation issue.
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"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2006 4:50:08 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
He was not guilty for sin? oh, then God turned his back on Jesus because....?
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Maybe God was just bored of Jesus.
I have not heard of this one before. WHere did you learn this discernment of this part of Matt? I have a thing about mis-guided pastors.
Jesus could not have been guilty of anything - He had to be perfect, guiltless and blameless. That is what makes Him the expiation - the perfect Sacrifice for offering to God for our sins (this is a very Jewish concept - if you are unaware of temple practices, you should read up. It will give you a better understanding of Romans, where Paul pretty much lays out the Christian theology).
quote:
HOW could he pay for our sins and not be guilty? And HOW could he pay for our sin without being punished for them? THE punishment of sin is DEATH (separation from GOD)(Romans 6:23). Jesus WAS punished, Jesus WAS separated from God (Mat. 27:46) HOW can you say he was not punished? HOW??
And if Jesus was not punished for our sins, then we are ALL in debt. Because SOMEONE has to pay the price of sin. IT DOES NOT GO AWAY.
Romans 6:23
FOR THE WAGES (price) OF SIN IS DEATH....
If Jesus was not punished for our sins, THEN WE MUST PAY FOR THEM. AND THE PUNISHMENT IS SEPARATION FROM GOD (death).
Man, this is way not right, in my opinion. Again, an understanding of Leviticus and temple practice would help put this in perspective. Jesus was not being punished for sin - He was being VICTIMIZED BY it.
Reading Psalm 22 in its entirety (Jesus is quoting it with Aramaic in your refernce above - using the Hebrew "Eli" for the word "God") to see what Jesus is really saying.
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"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/20/2006 6:19:35 AM
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SuperFork
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obviously Jesus had to be perfect, for if he was not, he could not pay for my sin because he would have a debt of his own. What does this word VICTIMIZED mean? And i was being sarcastic about God being bored with Jesus..
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/20/2006 1:32:15 PM
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milesjesu
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SuperFork,
Pardon the late entry, but I could not help but wonder after considering the following post:
quote:
ALL sin has the SAME price...DEATH...
I may have missed how you reconcile this with 1 John 5:16-17
KJV "16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
NRSV "16 If you see your brother or sister F26 committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God F27 will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal."
Your thoughts would be appreciated. Additionally, in light of these questions:
quote:
HOW could he pay for our sins and not be guilty?
If I got a traffic ticket, could my father pay for my fine? If so, could you please clarify your question?
quote:
And HOW could he pay for our sin without being punished for them?
See the above example. If it is given freely, is it really punishment?
quote:
THE punishment of sin is DEATH (separation from GOD)(Romans 6:23). Jesus WAS punished, Jesus WAS separated from God (Mat. 27:46) HOW can you say he was not punished?
How exactly is Jesus separated from God when He is God? An explanation of what you mean by this would be helpful when considering an answer to your question.
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/20/2006 9:16:27 PM
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milesjesu
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superfork,
quote:
Exactly , Your father would be paying the price.
The same way Jesus paid the price for our sin. Thank you for putting that in better terms than i had.
But in this example, my father would not be guilty. You asked: "HOW could he pay for our sins and not be guilty?"
That is why I provided the example of the traffice ticket.
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/20/2006 9:19:35 PM
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SuperFork
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but in the same way your father takes the punishment, so it was with Jesus.
< Message edited by SuperFork -- 2/20/2006 9:24:28 PM >
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, Your father would be paying the price.