Salvation and Catholicism

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Salvation and Catholicism (4/11/2005 1:42:18 PM)
How does the Catholic teaching on salvation compare with evangelical Christianity?

gracewalk -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/11/2005 7:56:51 PM)
It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event. Evangelicals teach salvation is being personally regenerated in Christ and personally receiving His life in us where He resides in us always through the Spirit. By this act we are baptized by the Spirit into the church, the body of Christ. Man made institutions may require water baptism as an outward sign of that which has already happened in the believers life. This is a very simplisctic answer needless to say.. YBIC [&:]

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/11/2005 9:54:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gracewalk It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event. Evangelicals teach salvation is being personally regenerated in Christ and personally receiving His life in us where He resides in us always through the Spirit. By this act we are baptized by the Spirit into the church, the body of Christ. Man made institutions may require water baptism as an outward sign of that which has already happened in the believers life. This is a very simplisctic answer needless to say.. YBIC [&:] Dear gracewalk, Although there is a community aspect to salvation, Catholics are "regenerated" one at a time just like everyone else. We believe that Baptism is the outward sign of the inward work of God. In the case of some, it is the actualization of what they already desired. For others, it is the act by which they are brought from separation to communion with God and His people. It is God's work and command, not man's. Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!

Sleeker -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/12/2005 7:04:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gracewalk It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event. Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would.

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/12/2005 9:56:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sleeker quote: ORIGINAL: gracewalk It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event. Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would. Dear Sleeker, One does not gain salvation by being a Roman Catholic, explicitly or implicitly. Non-Christians may not gain salvation by acting how a Roman Catholic would. Salvation for everyone comes only by the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. While Catholics believe that Christ's saving work is realized though the Sacraments, and that non-Catholics are members of the One Church however separated, our salvation is God's work in us, not ours in Him. If non-Christians are saved, it is only due to God's desire to accomplish His own will that none be lost. The Church recognizes God's freedom to act. The late Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, addressed the issue quite well in "Dominus Jesus." None of this should be interpreted to mean that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

Sleeker -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/15/2005 10:42:42 PM)
quote: One does not gain salvation by being a Roman Catholic, explicitly or implicitly. Non-Christians may not gain salvation by acting how a Roman Catholic would. Salvation for everyone comes only by the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. While Catholics believe that Christ's saving work is realized though the Sacraments, and that non-Catholics are members of the One Church however separated, our salvation is God's work in us, not ours in Him. I'm not going to have a discussion over whether Catholics are "right" or not. I'm merely saying what a Catholic's position is. quote: If non-Christians are saved, it is only due to God's desire to accomplish His own will that none be lost. The Church recognizes God's freedom to act. The late Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, addressed the issue quite well in "Dominus Jesus." None of this should be interpreted to mean that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. I never said that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. What I said was that anybody, no matter what the person's religion was, can be saved, but it's definitely doesn't mean that everybody will. By the way, it's Dominus Iesus.

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 6:25:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sleeker quote: One does not gain salvation by being a Roman Catholic, explicitly or implicitly. Non-Christians may not gain salvation by acting how a Roman Catholic would. Salvation for everyone comes only by the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. While Catholics believe that Christ's saving work is realized though the Sacraments, and that non-Catholics are members of the One Church however separated, our salvation is God's work in us, not ours in Him. I'm not going to have a discussion over whether Catholics are "right" or not. I'm merely saying what a Catholic's position is. quote: If non-Christians are saved, it is only due to God's desire to accomplish His own will that none be lost. The Church recognizes God's freedom to act. The late Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, addressed the issue quite well in "Dominus Jesus." None of this should be interpreted to mean that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. I never said that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. What I said was that anybody, no matter what the person's religion was, can be saved, but it's definitely doesn't mean that everybody will. By the way, it's Dominus Iesus. quote: Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would. Dear Sleeker, You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would." I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. (That was your cue, Mike) I added the bit about universalism to clarify my post, not in response to yours. Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 8:05:29 AM)
quote: I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Faith alone? John

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 8:47:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Faith alone? John Dear John, Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes. Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 9:14:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Faith alone? John Dear John, Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes. I'm sure after a view posts we'd be neck deep in the RCC's doctrine of salvation via works... Faith alone means just that, faith alone... John

Sleeker -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 1:20:07 PM)
quote: You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would." I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Read the interpretations. Pope John Paul II said the third interpretation is right (Dominus Iesus). Also, Roman Catholics believe that faith and good works are needed, and that one usually brings about the other. Read the section of "What You Must Do to Be Saved" here.

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 1:54:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Faith alone? John Dear John, Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes. I'm sure after a view posts we'd be neck deep in the RCC's doctrine of salvation via works... Faith alone means just that, faith alone... John Dear John, You are right, we would be neck deep. However, faith alone doesn't even mean faith alone to most Protestants. A faith that is never alone is not faith alone. Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 2:52:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Faith alone? John Dear John, Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes. I'm sure after a view posts we'd be neck deep in the RCC's doctrine of salvation via works... Faith alone means just that, faith alone... John Dear John, You are right, we would be neck deep. However, faith alone doesn't even mean faith alone to most Protestants. A faith that is never alone is not faith alone. So much for, "She(RCC) teaches that we are saved by faith." John

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 7:43:08 PM)
Dear John, Saved by faith does not equal saved by faith alone. Saved by faith alone does not equal faith without work. Faith and works does not equal saved by works. Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!

meep meep -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 8:59:54 PM)
quote: So much for, "She(RCC) teaches that we are saved by faith." John I sincerely doubt the RCC teaches we are saved by faith, or "faith alone" - as that is unscriptural. We are, however, "saved" by GRACE - even non Catholics. Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save? More importantly, GOD looks upon the heart and at our motivations - if we are moved to serve God and perform good works out of our love for HIM - will that still condemn us? Read Acts 10 - let's think about those works Cornelius performed. When was he "saved"? What did Jesus say about giving someone a glass of water in his name? What happens to those who did not DO the WORKS of charity Jesus speaks about? Were they "saved" by faith or where they cast away for not DOING the works he named? Finally, if one is "saved" by FAITH (alone) then doesn't our "faith" itself become a "work"? No, it is Grace which saves us, it is Grace that moves our faith and it is ONLY Grace which gives us the requisite amount of faith (lest any should boast) that moves us to have our being in, and perform our "works" for - HIM. In Christ, By Grace Meep meep

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 11:08:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meep meep quote: So much for, "She(RCC) teaches that we are saved by faith." John I sincerely doubt the RCC teaches we are saved by faith, or "faith alone" - as that is unscriptural. We are, however, "saved" by GRACE - even non Catholics. Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save? More importantly, GOD looks upon the heart and at our motivations - if we are moved to serve God and perform good works out of our love for HIM - will that still condemn us? Read Acts 10 - let's think about those works Cornelius performed. When was he "saved"? What did Jesus say about giving someone a glass of water in his name? What happens to those who did not DO the WORKS of charity Jesus speaks about? Were they "saved" by faith or where they cast away for not DOING the works he named? Finally, if one is "saved" by FAITH (alone) then doesn't our "faith" itself become a "work"? No, it is Grace which saves us, it is Grace that moves our faith and it is ONLY Grace which gives us the requisite amount of faith (lest any should boast) that moves us to have our being in, and perform our "works" for - HIM. In Christ, By Grace Meep meep Dear Meep meep, I am not saying that the Catholic Church's view is justification by faith alone, or that works are not involved in some way. I shall let the Council of Trent speak for itself. "And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace." Whatever else may be involved, justification is by faith, not works. That is a very Scriptural position. It is therefore a very Catholic one as well. Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/16/2005 11:32:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sleeker quote: You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would." I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. Read the interpretations. Pope John Paul II said the third interpretation is right (Dominus Iesus). Also, Roman Catholics believe that faith and good works are needed, and that one usually brings about the other. Read the section of "What You Must Do to Be Saved" here. Dear Sleeker, What is your source for the bit about "acting like a good Roman Catholic would"? Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

Sleeker -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 12:38:43 PM)
quote: Dear Sleeker, What is your source for the bit about "acting like a good Roman Catholic would"? Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord! Don't over analyze this. EENS says that all who gain salvation only do it by the Roman Catholic Church, whether implicit or explicit. So if you aren't a good Roman Catholic, but you act like one, then you will still get salvation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 2:10:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sleeker quote: Dear Sleeker, What is your source for the bit about "acting like a good Roman Catholic would"? Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord! Don't over analyze this. EENS says that all who gain salvation only do it by the Roman Catholic Church, whether implicit or explicit. So if you aren't a good Roman Catholic, but you act like one, then you will still get salvation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus Dear Sleeker, Please, for the benefit of onlookers, please don't use acronyms that are obscure. (EENS= extra ecclesia nula salus = outside of the Church there is no Salvation) That would be an interesting thread, to discuss that idea from a Christian versus Non-Christian point of view, but I digress. . . It isn't overanalyzing anything to refute the belief that people are saved by acting like something they are not. Catholics are saved by faith in Christ, and by obedience to His commands, just like everyone else. You post gives the impression that one doesn't have to believe, one just needs to act like someone who believes. Nonsense!!! Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

Ezra -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 4:29:06 PM)
quote: Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save? Would you be happier if we said "by living faith alone" (dead faith being in reality no faith)? Whenever you reduce salvation to a formula you are bound to fall into error. Salvation is NOT a formula but a Person. A Divine Person -- the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who possess Chirst within their spirits are saved. Those who profess Christ and have all the formulas down pat are not necessarily saved. And those who depend on their obedience to the RCC and sacramentalism are simply deluded. So what is "salvation"? Salvation is God's GIFT of eternal life by His grace -- God's gift of Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) -- to the one who believes that Christ died for his sins and rose again for his justification, repents, and receives Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior by faith. Since salvation is God's gift to the sinner, and constitutes "eternal life", those who are born again by the Holy Spirit cannot lose their salvation, though from time to time they may lose their fellowship with God because of sin in their lives. Those who wilfully and persistently sin and will not repent after salvation face premature death.

Sleeker -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 5:24:42 PM)
quote: Please, for the benefit of onlookers, please don't use acronyms that are obscure. (EENS= extra ecclesia nula salus = outside of the Church there is no Salvation) That would be an interesting thread, to discuss that idea from a Christian versus Non-Christian point of view, but I digress. . . Which is why I gave the link... quote: It isn't overanalyzing anything to refute the belief that people are saved by acting like something they are not. Catholics are saved by faith in Christ, and by obedience to His commands, just like everyone else. It it the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that in order to gain salvation, you need to receive God's mercy and get his grace. We get his grace by faith and good works, but we still do not earn it. We get it by his mercy. Having faith and doing good works are what Roman Catholics should do, and therefore, with God's mercy, they will be saved. However, even if one isn't Roman Catholic, but behaves like one should, they too can get salvation by God's mercy. quote: You post gives the impression that one doesn't have to believe, one just needs to act like someone who believes. Nonsense!!! I use the word "act" to mean "behaves." I do not use it to mean "pretend."

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 8:32:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sdaw Dear John, Saved by faith does not equal saved by faith alone. Saved by faith alone does not equal faith without work. Faith and works does not equal saved by works. At least now we have you saying it's faith AND works, not just faith... You posted: "The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith. " John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 8:43:20 PM)
quote: I sincerely doubt the RCC teaches we are saved by faith, or "faith alone" - as that is unscriptural. I agree that it doesn't... I responded to the following, posted by a Catholic... "The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith." quote: We are, however, "saved" by GRACE - even non Catholics. I hear this on this fourm quite a bit , but on mainly Catholic only forums salvation outside the RCC isn't all that common... quote: Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save? The problem with the RCC equation is that when it really comes down to it faith and works are two items, not one having really having to do with the other... And for the record one can say "faith alone" since the faith that does lead to salvation will produce the good works that God prepared beforehand so they we would walk in them... Mainly because that faith is of God, not man... quote: More importantly, GOD looks upon the heart and at our motivations - if we are moved to serve God and perform good works out of our love for HIM - will that still condemn us? Moved by what? quote: Finally, if one is "saved" by FAITH (alone) then doesn't our "faith" itself become a "work"? Only for those who believe that salvation is something that man has a hand in other than being made the willing servant by the grace of God, according to nothing but the will of God and His own purpose... quote: No, it is Grace which saves us, it is Grace that moves our faith and it is ONLY Grace which gives us the requisite amount of faith (lest any should boast) that moves us to have our being in, and perform our "works" for - HIM. Are you saying that salvation is 100% in the hand of God? John

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 8:45:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sleeker quote: Please, for the benefit of onlookers, please don't use acronyms that are obscure. (EENS= extra ecclesia nula salus = outside of the Church there is no Salvation) That would be an interesting thread, to discuss that idea from a Christian versus Non-Christian point of view, but I digress. . . Which is why I gave the link... quote: It isn't overanalyzing anything to refute the belief that people are saved by acting like something they are not. Catholics are saved by faith in Christ, and by obedience to His commands, just like everyone else. It it the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that in order to gain salvation, you need to receive God's mercy and get his grace. We get his grace by faith and good works, but we still do not earn it. We get it by his mercy. Having faith and doing good works are what Roman Catholics should do, and therefore, with God's mercy, they will be saved. However, even if one isn't Roman Catholic, but behaves like one should, they too can get salvation by God's mercy. quote: You post gives the impression that one doesn't have to believe, one just needs to act like someone who believes. Nonsense!!! I use the word "act" to mean "behaves." I do not use it to mean "pretend." Dear Sleeker, I am not trying to be picky, nor am I trying to be condescending. I am just trying to be clear. I offer this in a good spirit, and I hope it is taken that way. You are right to say that, to be saved, one must receive God's mercy and grace. You are right to say that neither mercy nor grace can be earned. You are correct to say that we must have faith and do good works. Salvation stems from faith, not works. The relationship between faith and works is a thorny one, even among Protestants. I think we need to be careful about the "We get his grace by faith and good works." We must be given grace to have faith. We must be given grace to perform good works. I think it is correct to say that sanctifying grace, the participation in the Divine nature, can be increased by good works, in that they can enable us to love God and our fellow man more, and love our sins less. With the help of God's grace, we can thereby obey Christ's command to "be perfect as the Father is perfect." We don't not become perfect this side of Heaven, but we can become more nearly so. I remember thinking about all this as if good works got me some kind of spiritual brownie points. I want to avoid giving that impression to others. To those who would criticize the notion of the increase of grace on the grounds that we are given at the moment of salvation all the grace we will ever have, I have no quarrel with you. But I would say grace is like money in an escrow account. It's there for you to have, but it does you no good unless it is in your pocket. Eternal rest grant onto them, O Lord!

sdaw -> RE: Salvation and Catholicism (4/17/2005 9:27:12 PM)
Dear John, The Council of Trent said it best. "And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace." And again, " CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema." Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!

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