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is the stage being set for confrontation? - 9/24/2008 12:20:03 PM
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Fledgling
Posts: 71
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Russian troops are in possession of the route between Moscow & Israel
(the mountains of Georgia).
Zion Oil http://www.zionoil.com/ begins drilling in
the 'foot of Asher' (Dt. 33:24) in November 2008, expecting to hit
the largest pool of oil in the Middle East (located in the Valley of
Megiddo). http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-10.html
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/19/2008 2:46:11 AM
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dramagal
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Looking at those countries on the way south from Russia, one sees:
Russia is friendly wiht Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia, and is working on Turkey. In supporing Iran (which has been sending fighters into Iraq to destabilize Iraq), Russia was also trying to gain access in Iraq.
Georgia, Azerbiajian and Armenia are in the ones in the way. The got "just two provinces of Georgia" now, but they've also managed to intimidate other countries, and their goal was not to militarily conquer all of Georgia, but to destabilize Georgia so that a new government friendly to Russia would be installed.
Putin's goal is to more than recreate the old Soviet Union as a Russian Empire, but to make it bigger and its influence stronger through its control of oil and natural gas (thus the alliances with oil countries).
_____________________________
Who let the wild donkey go free? Job 39:5.
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/19/2008 10:16:34 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
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quote:
Putin's goal is to more than recreate the old Soviet Union as a Russian Empire, but to make it bigger and its influence stronger through its control of oil and natural gas (thus the alliances with oil countries).
Gog is coming!!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/19/2008 9:46:24 PM
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A_Name_Written
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Russian troops are in possession of the route between Moscow & Israel
(the mountains of Georgia).
The invention of the airplane has made the necessity for a land route, uh, plain ol silly, don't ya think? Really, come on now, neither Russian soldiers, Chinese soldiers, or Persian soldiers, are gonna walk from their home land to the mountains of Israel; ya people gotta look around sometime: 1 soldier 1 bullet 1 enemy down, vs, 1 pilot 1 plane 1 missile, 500 enemy down. It's called modern warfare! Lastly, what do you think Israel will do when they see a whole bunch of Russians, Persians, or Chinese taking a stroll where they ought not be taking a stroll? Did you forget Israel has nukes? Honestly, I just can't believe the nonsense scenario that the majority of christians have been led to believe about how the end-times will play out!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 12:30:16 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1385
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
The invention of the airplane has made the necessity for a land route, uh, plain ol silly, don't ya think? Really, come on now, neither Russian soldiers, Chinese soldiers, or Persian soldiers, are gonna walk from their home land to the mountains of Israel; ya people gotta look around sometime: 1 soldier 1 bullet 1 enemy down, vs, 1 pilot 1 plane 1 missile, 500 enemy down. It's called modern warfare! Lastly, what do you think Israel will do when they see a whole bunch of Russians, Persians, or Chinese taking a stroll where they ought not be taking a stroll? Did you forget Israel has nukes? Honestly, I just can't believe the nonsense scenario that the majority of christians have been led to believe about how the end-times will play out!
While I don't agree or disagree with you, it seems that overall, many of the interpretations are based on ancient interpretations and I think that we need to look for more modern interpretations. It seems like the Bible even tells us that we need to look for modern interpretations when it comes to prophecies in the Bible (that the prophecies are not meant for the time of those who wrote it). I think you will be more open minded on the subject and I wrote some threads with more modern interpretations (ie: ones that involve America) and I think that those interpretations fit well. Daniel 8, for instance, seems to be referring to America, and the second beast of Revelation 13 also seems to be referring to America.
Here (posts 40 - 41)
here (posts 171 - 172)
Here (posts 74 - 75)
I used to spend a lot of time debating these issues (and defending my position on them) a long time ago on these forums, though I can no longer find those posts. Nevertheless, whatever the interpretation, I really suggest that we try to find a more modern interpretation than the traditional ones and I don't think that we should exclude America as an entity described in biblical prophecy just because some Christians can't bear the thought of America being mentioned in the Bible. I think that we need to be more open minded (and critical of all interpretations, including my own of course). The prophecies about Christ weren't meant to be understood by those who came long before the time that the prophecized events took place and the prophecies on the End times aren't meant to be understood by those who aren't in or close to the end times.
quote:
But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12:4 MKJV)
Notice how it says to "seal" the words, they're not meant for the time of those who wrote it.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 10/20/2008 12:37:37 AM >
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 1:25:08 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 394
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, A_Name_Written!
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Russian troops are in possession of the route between Moscow & Israel
(the mountains of Georgia).
The invention of the airplane has made the necessity for a land route, uh, plain ol silly, don't ya think? Really, come on now, neither Russian soldiers, Chinese soldiers, or Persian soldiers, are gonna walk from their home land to the mountains of Israel; ya people gotta look around sometime: 1 soldier 1 bullet 1 enemy down, vs, 1 pilot 1 plane 1 missile, 500 enemy down. It's called modern warfare! Lastly, what do you think Israel will do when they see a whole bunch of Russians, Persians, or Chinese taking a stroll where they ought not be taking a stroll? Did you forget Israel has nukes? Honestly, I just can't believe the nonsense scenario that the majority of christians have been led to believe about how the end-times will play out!
Umm... Kinda depends on the near-future cost of jet fuel, doesn't it? Even the USA can't keep the jets in the air indefinitely! They need a place to land, re-fuel, reload, and a base of operations. This could be a sea-going vessel, but more than likely for Russia it would be a land-based operation.
Furthermore, neither we nor Isra'el has admitted that Isra'el has nukes. We've both left that up to the very vivid imaginations of her Arab neighbors. That keeps them at arm's length more effectively than actually demonstrating whether they have the nukes!
Anyway, I'd hope that they would be enough sense to PRAY!
Retrobyter
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 1:36:59 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3608
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
neither we nor Isra'el has admitted that Isra'el has nukes.
Oh, they got nukes alright..............LOL.
All they need is the "finger of God."
That's nuke enough for me. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 2:49:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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A country can be weakened from the air but the only way to win a war (precluding total destruction) is by occupation. The intent of any invasion of Israel is to occupy the land so there will be an army close at hand.
Anyway we know there will be troops involved because the bible tells us so.
It seems the only nuclear weapons anyone will employ in the region will neutron weapons which kill but allow the land to be occupied. Can you imagine a dirty bomb going off in the region...I really don't thing anyone would want to live there for maybe the next 1000 years.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 8:47:08 PM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
A country can be weakened from the air but the only way to win a war (precluding total destruction) is by occupation. The intent of any invasion of Israel is to occupy the land so there will be an army close at hand.
Anyway we know there will be troops involved because the bible tells us so.
It seems the only nuclear weapons anyone will employ in the region will neutron weapons which kill but allow the land to be occupied. Can you imagine a dirty bomb going off in the region...I really don't thing anyone would want to live there for maybe the next 1000 years.
Bob
I didn't say there wouldn't be troops; I said Russian troops aren't going to get to Israel by land, neither will Persian troops. They have planes; and planes carry troops. That's how US troops ended up in Iraq. It is the failure of christian interpretation that seems to think modern troops need to get from point A to point B by land routes. The book of Revelation is very symbolic, so maybe it should not be read literally. I for one do not expect to ever see a seven headed beast. Do You ?
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 8:58:21 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
I for one do not expect to ever see a seven headed beast. Do You ?
That's a good question...every once in a while when I look at the political news it's almost like I'm seeing one today.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 9:03:43 PM
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A_Name_Written
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Joined: 4/3/2008
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Revelation tells us that the waters of the Euphrates will be "dried up". It also tells us that waters have a symbolic meaning, "people, tongues, nations". Ok, knowing that the angel TELLS JOHN that "waters" represents something other than H2O, how do we know that the "waters" which are to be dried up of the Euphrates isn't telling us that maybe the REGION of the Euphrates will be deprived of NATIONHOOD. Think for a moment people; look for a future literal fulfillment of a river drying up, or an in your face fulfillment of a nation losing soverign rule. Lastly, neither Russia, the Chinese, nor the Persians, would be stopped because of a river. Just take a look at a map. Between Russia and Israel there is rough terrain, mountains, and several water ways; between Persia and Israel there is the Tigris and the Euphrates, and a HUGE desert; between China and Israel there are SEVERAL water ways, several nations, a HUGE desert, and rough terrain. COME ON NOW; in this day and age, what military general is so stupid as to have his troops go over these land routes, which will take days, allowing the enemy (Israel) plenty of time to prepare. That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. You are defending a ludicrous scenario based on a literal interpretation, where a literal interpretation is SO OUTDATED!!!
I'd like to add, with regard to the "waters" of the Euphrates being "dried up" to make a way for the Kings of the East; think about it, the Persians would have never been in a position to wage any sought of war on Israel as long as Iraq, it's greatest enemy, remained soverign. With Saddam gone, and Iraq controled by Shiites, Iran (the Kings of the East? MAYBE?) has no impediment between them and Israel !!! Something to think about, MAYBE?
< Message edited by A_Name_Written -- 10/20/2008 9:24:49 PM >
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 9:10:55 PM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Russian troops are in possession of the route between Moscow & Israel
(the mountains of Georgia).
Though I do believe the stage is being set for confrontation, I do not think Russian troops need to travel through Georgia to get to Israel.
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 9:13:24 PM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
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The coalition that will go up against Israel will do so in the name of peace, not war. The coalition will be called a peace-keeping force. The whole thing will look very similar to when a coalition of the willing sent peace-keping forces to remove a Dangerous Saddam with invisible boogey-man weapons.
There is already an initiative to rid the Mideast of nukes. After Israel is accused of nuking Damascus, the world will be outraged, and this coalition of the willing will be used to force Israel to give up it's nukes.
The USA will be bogged down in political and economic turmoil, with an incredibly weak leadership. The EU will be too dependent on foreign oil, and they will see the USA sitting by the sidelines, and will be forced to the same.
I'd like to add, occupation will never be the PUBLICLY STATED goal of any modern coalition. The mantra will be "Regime Change" and "Nuclear Disarmament". Oh, and by the way, the UN will have ceased to exist, making the option of a UN Resolution impossible. The ONLY possible recourse will be the scenario I've stated.
< Message edited by A_Name_Written -- 10/20/2008 10:20:20 PM >
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/20/2008 11:34:16 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Hi Name_Written...
When you make all of these statements, who are you talking about or what event?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 2:10:00 AM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written...
When you make all of these statements, who are you talking about or what event?
You may call me "genunely naive/ignorant", but I don't understand your question, especially regarding "what event" ? ? ?
As for the "who", I am speaking of Israel and whatever coalition of nations forms against her.
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 10:42:55 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi Name_Written...
Are you relating to the Gog/Magog war of Eze 38/39? If so when do you see it occurring and do you consider Gog as being the Antichrist?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 11:01:36 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 394
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Bob!
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
A country can be weakened from the air but the only way to win a war (precluding total destruction) is by occupation. The intent of any invasion of Israel is to occupy the land so there will be an army close at hand.
Anyway we know there will be troops involved because the bible tells us so.
It seems the only nuclear weapons anyone will employ in the region will neutron weapons which kill but allow the land to be occupied. Can you imagine a dirty bomb going off in the region...I really don't thing anyone would want to live there for maybe the next 1000 years.
Bob
Right you are! Furthermore, tanks and convoys take a ground route (or at least a water route) to deploy them. If I'm not mistaken, our equipment got there by ship, right?
Oh, and the plague described in Z'kharyahu's prophecy (Zech. 14:12) doesn't truly sound like the results of a nuclear bomb, to me. It kinda reminds me more of a scene out of "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark!"
Retrobyter
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 12:10:44 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 394
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, A_Name_Written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
Revelation tells us that the waters of the Euphrates will be "dried up". It also tells us that waters have a symbolic meaning, "people, tongues, nations". Ok, knowing that the angel TELLS JOHN that "waters" represents something other than H2O, how do we know that the "waters" which are to be dried up of the Euphrates isn't telling us that maybe the REGION of the Euphrates will be deprived of NATIONHOOD. Think for a moment people; look for a future literal fulfillment of a river drying up, or an in your face fulfillment of a nation losing soverign rule. Lastly, neither Russia, the Chinese, nor the Persians, would be stopped because of a river. Just take a look at a map. Between Russia and Israel there is rough terrain, mountains, and several water ways; between Persia and Israel there is the Tigris and the Euphrates, and a HUGE desert; between China and Israel there are SEVERAL water ways, several nations, a HUGE desert, and rough terrain. COME ON NOW; in this day and age, what military general is so stupid as to have his troops go over these land routes, which will take days, allowing the enemy (Israel) plenty of time to prepare. That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. You are defending a ludicrous scenario based on a literal interpretation, where a literal interpretation is SO OUTDATED!!!
I'd like to add, with regard to the "waters" of the Euphrates being "dried up" to make a way for the Kings of the East; think about it, the Persians would have never been in a position to wage any sought of war on Israel as long as Iraq, it's greatest enemy, remained soverign. With Saddam gone, and Iraq controled by Shiites, Iran (the Kings of the East? MAYBE?) has no impediment between them and Israel !!! Something to think about, MAYBE?
Okay, you MIGHT be right about "a region deprived of nationhood," but rivers may also be diverted or dammed up to allow for dry ground where a road might go. Just because "waters" were said to represent "peoples" in one place of Revelation does NOT mean that it must represent "peoples" EVERYWHERE the word occurs! That's a dangerous precendent that can cause all sorts of misfires in the interpretation of Scripture. It's similar to the way "leaven" has been treated in typology (or should I say "typolatry," "the WORSHIP of types" instead of "the study of types?"):
Leaven has been said so long and so often to be a "type of sin," that some folks can't see it as representing anything else! Yet, I know of one location, however, where it would be better to approach the parable with an open mind: Matthew 13:33 says,
Matt 13:33
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV
I really don't know anyone who would want to say that "the Kingdom of heaven is like unto sin!" So, in this particular case, to say that the leaven of this verse should be a type of sin is, IMO, just wrong.
Even in analogies, sometimes you have to leave certain elements of the analogy to be literally interpreted. Otherwise, the comparisons of the analogy have no anchors and your analogy could float away! For instance, if I said that something was "hard as nails," and then proceeded to mention the fact that steel could melt with sufficient heat, what did that do to my original comparison? Analogies and allegories have their place WITHIN the method of literal interpretation, but to give them free reign is dangerous.
Especially in the book of the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ), one must be extremely careful with what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken symbolically, as a simile or a metaphor. Wherever it is pointed out directly, you are safe. Where the words "like" or "as" are employed, you are safe, but in the case of metaphors and more covert symbolism, one should probably hedge his/her bet! For instance, in the case of the seven-headed beast, you're probably right to see it as symbolism. However, in the case of the scorpion-tailed locusts of chapter 9, I can see these creatures as literal insects which had been trapped underground since the days of Noach's global Flood! I do NOT see them as "demons" or symbols representing anything else. They are what they are.
In this particular case, we are not told that the waters of the Euphrates River, a real river in Mesopotamia that extends all the way up the east side of the Fertile Crescent through the land of Syria all the way into Turkey, represent peoples. To the contrary, the river itself is a very REAL river that is a very REAL obstacle to land travel from the Eastern nations. Perhaps what they are trying to do is avoid going through Syria altogether! As far as the four "angels" bound in the river, the word "angel" itself is a word to which we have given a more fable-like interpretation. The word simply means "messenger" and doesn't always have to be a "spirit" creature! "Messengers" can refer to HUMAN messengers or even normally inanimate objects sent--or hurled--as messengers, such as the "star" (Greek: aster) in Rev. 9!
Hope this helps.
Retrobyter
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 10/21/2008 1:13:13 PM >
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 1:12:12 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 58
Joined: 4/12/2005
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To All
The time is now being prepared for Ezekiel 38 and 39 to occur. But according to Ezk 39:2 KJV, only 1/6 of the invading armies will remain alive. Ezk 38:4 - mentions horses and horsemen (for this is prophecy from God).
What about our present financial crisis and the oil crisis. Don't look down the road (future) and say that it will be the same as it is today. If there is no oil, no fuel to run tanks, trucks, planes, etc. , Then this prophecy from God could be exactly as foretold. This could happen within the next 2-4 years.
As to the drying up the the Eurphrates River, which is the 6th Bowl of Revelation. A very specific location, for a very specific reason. So the 200,000,000 man army from the East (China) can cross and make their way to Armageddon. Look at some of the preceding events, 1/3rd of the seas become as blood, 1/3 of the rivers turn bitter. There is a great earthquake Rev 6:14 (6th Seal) in which every mountain and island was removed from its place. No bridges, roads destroyed, water systems broken, communication destroyed: destruction of the total infrastructure of society. Horses might now seem to be a good way to travel. This last paragraph is near the end of the 70th week of Daniel.
Montana Marv
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 8:25:09 PM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written...
Are you relating to the Gog/Magog war of Eze 38/39? If so when do you see it occurring and do you consider Gog as being the Antichrist?
Hi bob97...
I am; I believe it will occur much sooner than everyone thinks; there are many antichrists, all who say Christ has not come in the flesh are antichrist, having the spirit of antichrist, which has been with us now 2000 years.
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/21/2008 11:46:06 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi Name_Written..
Do you think Putin could be the AC then?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/22/2008 1:18:44 AM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written..
Do you think Putin could be the AC then?
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Ok, after reading the verses, over and over again, I come to the same conclusion that I have always come to: THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ANTICHRIST. That said, singling out one man as THE Antichrist makes zero sense to many. I realize that statement goes against church tradition, but I don't think this thread should be hijacked to discuss it.
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/22/2008 11:56:55 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Is Gog a single person? Is the King of the South a single identity? Is the individual who sets in the temple many or one?
Seems to me that there is one major central individual.
But I agree...everyone who rejects Christ is an Antichrist.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/22/2008 1:41:38 PM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Is Gog a single person? Is the King of the South a single identity? Is the individual who sets in the temple many or one?
Seems to me that there is one major central individual.
Gog may be an individual, a nation, or an office.
Bible Speak: The king of the south (or king of anything else for that matter); may refer to a specific king, or to a dynastic king, or even an entire dynasty. For example; at times the Emporer of the Roman Empire was from the Germanic kings, in which case, "biblically" speaking, the phrase "king of germany", can be used to mean any or all of the Germanic Roman Emporers. The key difference is that prophetic events regarding a specific king must come to pass during the lifetime of one man, whereas the events foretold regarding a dynasty may span several lifetimes.
I don't know anything about any individual sitting in any not-yet-existing temple. We can bring this one up again AFTER a temple exists. Your original question was if I though Putin was "THE" antichrist, which you now say is one individual that sits in the temple. So my answer to you is simply this; let us revisit this question AFTER the non-existant temple comes into existance, fair enough? Till then, whether or not Putin is antichrist depends only on whether or not he claims Christ has come in the flesh.
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