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The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/18/2009 2:23:43 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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Something that has been going through my head the last week or so...Does anyone believe the Fall of man would have happened eventually..? If Adam & Eve had never partaken of the fruit, and stayed in the garden, would it be conceivable that one of their offspring would have done it..?
Since man is, well, just that, it was just a matter of time before one would eat the fruit of the tree. Right..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/18/2009 8:32:09 AM
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tsnody2001
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Depending on what translation you use, Revelation 13:8 says that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the earth. It seems to me that that means that the plan had already been agreed upon by Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I know I may be reading into that Scripture, but that is my take.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 4:25:36 PM
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Johnny_
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I don't think Adam knew God the way David knew God. In other words, I don't believe Adam's relationship with God was anything like David's relationship with God. The bible says David was a man after God's own heart. I think Adam was a man after his own self. I'm not so sure David would have eaten the fruit if he was put in that exact situation. God tested Adam's heart and Adam utterly failed. If I was a betting man, I would bet a million dollars that David would have passed the test.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 4:32:27 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I don't think Adam knew God the way David knew God. In other words, I don't believe Adam's relationship with God was anything like David's relationship with God. The bible says David was a man after God's own heart. I think Adam was a man after his own self. I'm not so sure David would have eaten the fruit if he was put in that exact situation. God tested Adam's heart and Adam utterly failed. If I was a betting man, I would bet a million dollars that David would have passed the test.
One word to consider: Bathsheba
David was not without serious flaws, flaws that would have caused the fall just as surely if he were in Adam's place.
Adam walked and talked with God, one-on-one. When Eve took of the fruit, Adam chose, with full knowledge, to throw in his lot with her, rather than allow her to perish alone. IOW, his concern was for Eve. Unfortunately, it was a seriously misguided love to prefer her over God, but is wasn't a selfish action.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 4:46:24 PM
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Johnny_
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I think comparing the Bathsheba incident to the fruit incident is like comparing apples and oranges. Why? Because God never commanded David that he could not have Bathsheba. God did command Adam that he could not eat of the fruit. In my opinion, there is a big difference. Was there a straightforward commandment that God gave David in which David purposely disobeyed?
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 4:48:54 PM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Something that has been going through my head the last week or so...Does anyone believe the Fall of man would have happened eventually..? If Adam & Eve had never partaken of the fruit, and stayed in the garden, would it be conceivable that one of their offspring would have done it..?
Since man is, well, just that, it was just a matter of time before one would eat the fruit of the tree. Right..?
Matthew,
I am of the opinion that Adam and Eve would not have fallen without the external temptation of the serpent. To say that they would have sinned anyway ("Since man is, well, just that") is to argue in the wrong direction. Man is now fallen and sinful by nature. He has an innate tendency toward sin. Prior to the Fall, however, man did not have the sinful nature he now has. God created him "very good" (Gen 1:31). Thus, to reason backward from our own depravity to pre-Fall man would likely bring us to the wrong conclusion. Does that make sense?
In Him,
-Intrepidus
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 4:50:01 PM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I think comparing the Bathsheba incident to the fruit incident is like comparing apples and oranges. Why? Because God never commanded David that he could not have Bathsheba.
Really?
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
"Thou shalt not murder."
Hmmm...
-Intrepidus
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 4:54:59 PM
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Johnny_
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I was referring to a straightforward commandment. Yes, I concede that David broke every commandment in the bible with Bathsheba. But my question is, was there direct commandment such as "you cannot eat that apple pie" in which David deliberately disobeyed? Please, just answer yes or no.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 5:00:21 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I think comparing the Bathsheba incident to the fruit incident is like comparing apples and oranges. Why? Because God never commanded David that he could not have Bathsheba. God did command Adam that he could not eat of the fruit. In my opinion, there is a big difference. Was there a straightforward commandment that God gave David in which David purposely disobeyed?
When David came along, God had forbidden adultery AND murder several centuries earlier - and he was very familiar with those commands.
Thus, we have apples and apples. Worse than Adam, David broke at least two, if not more, specific commands of God.
Sorry, but David would have us in the same place as we are today, in need of Jesus Christ to redeem us from our fallen nature.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 5:26:48 PM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I was referring to a straightforward commandment. Yes, I concede that David broke every commandment in the bible with Bathsheba. But my question is, was there direct commandment such as "you cannot eat that apple pie" in which David deliberately disobeyed? Please, just answer yes or no.
It's not a simple 'yes or no' question Johnny_. The commandments above are quite clear. To them, one could add "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." There doesn't need to be a spoon-fed command for every possible situation. Let's suppose I walk next door and murder my neighbor, Jack. At the Judgment, I won't be able to say, "Well, yes, you did say not to commit murder. But you didn't say not to murder Jack!"
David's conscience worked along these lines:
1. God commands me NOT to commit adultery.
2. Adultery is having sexual relations with another man's wife.
3. Bathsheeba is another man's wife.
4. Therefore, God commands me not to have sexual relations with Bathsheebsa.
He knew better, just as Adam knew better than to eat the fruit. In both cases, self-interest was placed above God's interest. The only difference is that Adam required a different measure of temptation. Satan had to exert all his craftiness to lure mankind into sin, for at the time man did not have a sinful nature. David, on the other hand, needed only a glimpse from his roof top.
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/19/2009 5:33:32 PM >
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 6:07:51 PM
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AskSeekKnock
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This may need to go in a Law forum somewhere, so sorry if it does.
Hasn't the Law always existed? Even from creation? It may not have been written until Mt. Sinai, but hasn't it always existed? If not, what sin did Cain commit?
_____________________________
1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 10:00:33 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
I am of the opinion that Adam and Eve would not have fallen without the external temptation of the serpent. To say that they would have sinned anyway ("Since man is, well, just that") is to argue in the wrong direction. Man is now fallen and sinful by nature. He has an innate tendency toward sin. Prior to the Fall, however, man did not have the sinful nature he now has. God created him "very good" (Gen 1:31). Thus, to reason backward from our own depravity to pre-Fall man would likely bring us to the wrong conclusion. Does that make sense?
In Him,
-Intrepidus
Great point!!
The serpent tempted, and had Eve been strong enough she would have blown him off...But since the serpent is a 'lurker' he would of stayed around and waited for a weaker person to tempt; eventually he would have found his prey.
Johnny_...It is true, David was a man after God's heart, but I believe that was more on the remorseful/spiritual side. He always knew when he did wrong, and was quick to make amends between himself and his God. As others have pointed out, David was severly flawed, yet he knew how to approach God for forgiveness. If it was David in the garden, and Bathsheba (or any young beautiful woman for that matter) had presented him with the fruit, I'm sure he would have sunk his teeth into it without thinking...then felt total remorse, and sought out God instead of waiting for God to seek out him ~~ that would have been the difference between him and Adam.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 10:55:05 PM
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sue244
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I think if we are going to argue that some people in the Bible would have passed where Adam failed I would put my money on either Enoch or Elijah since neither one of them died.
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My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 11:09:52 PM
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Johnny_
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I'm sorry if I came across as argumentative. Anyways, I'd put my money on Abraham, Elijah, or David.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/19/2009 11:19:33 PM
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Intrepidus
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As far as being sinless goes, I wouldn't put my money on any of them. That would be a fool's bet. God appointed Adam to be our representative in Eden. Unless God made a mistake, that means each and every one of us would have done exactly as Adam did. Abraham, Enoch, you and I--we all would have eaten from the tree and plunged the entire race into chaos, corruption, and death. It's a humiliating thought, but a biblical one. Adam perfectly represented us all.
-Intrepidus
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/20/2009 12:24:41 AM
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Bountiful
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God always has been and always will be. Therefore I don't think there is anything that man has done or will do that surprises him.
Don't know if the fall was inevitable but I don't think it was any surprise to God.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/20/2009 4:46:13 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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Second time this has been moved...interesting...
Well, again I am going to agree with Eutychus...Both had a 'sinful nature' so would be totally capable of partaking of the fruit...Would they, we have no idea, only speculation. Let's ask ourselves, would we have been the one to take a bite..? Knowing me, there have been some low points in my life where if I were in Adam's place probably would have done the same thing.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/22/2009 3:13:20 PM
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Geerhardus_Vos
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No, it would not be inevitable for Adam's descendants to fall if Adam had proved righteous. In fact it would have been impossible. The first Adam was in a special relationship to God and mankind, just as the second Adam (Jesus) was in a special relationship to God and mankind. Could someone other than the second Adam have lived a holy life and died for sinners if the second Adam had not done so? Impossible!
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/23/2009 2:59:06 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
No, it would not be inevitable for Adam's descendants to fall if Adam had proved righteous.
Are you refering to some sort of 'generational blessing..?' Just because Adam might have proved himself righteous does not mean his children would have. Would Cain have been the one then to partake of the fruit because he was a selfish and proud man? Perhaps so...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 10/23/2009 8:28:30 AM
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Geerhardus_Vos
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quote:
Are you refering to some sort of 'generational blessing..?' Just because Adam might have proved himself righteous does not mean his children would have.
No, not "generaltional blessing" but federal/covenant theology. Just as Christ is the representative head over mankind and his righteousness is imputed to us, the first Adam was our federal head and his sin is imputed to us in a fallen nature.
If you believe that sin would have been inevitable it would them seem to necessarily follow that someone will eventually sin in heaven. If a fall is not inevitable in heaven then it would not have been inevitable IF Adam had been confirmed in righteousness.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 11/8/2009 11:19:17 PM
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mosess8
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I believe the Bible says that We who are saved had been chosen before the foundation of the world.
Therefore I believe that Adam and Eve had to sin in order for God's greater cause to be manifested. It was His design, to bring many to glory.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 11/17/2009 11:33:11 PM
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minimoe59
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When Adam and Eve lived in the garden, they had everlasting life as long as they did not sin, so they were on a contract.. per say. The Bible does not say how long they lived in the Garden before they sinned. It could have been a very, very long time. Once Adam sinned, the contract was over, everlasting life was done. Death came to Adam and Eve. The fall was not inevitable, but God knew it would happen and made provisions in eternity past. He had a plan.
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RE: The Fall Inevitable..? - 11/20/2009 1:37:47 PM
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terryjohn
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Yes it was meant to be as is the end it is all unavoidable, and just as God wanted, for in the conflict between men and God, we come to see that He is Lord. By frustrating and working out His will in our freedom, we will all fall on our knees in the end and all freely confess it whether we like it or not.
In our freedom we bound ourselves to be salves to our freedom until Christ set us free again.
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