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Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 11:45:03 AM
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cih92
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Just out of curiosity, would it be permissible for a public school teacher to talk about the scientific evidence against the theory of evolution as long as he or she does not teach that a supernatural cause is responsible for the existence of the universe and life here on earth?
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 12:54:51 PM
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garsyt
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I don't know if it would be permissible or not but I do know that my high school science teacher did. Of course that was 20+ years ago.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 9:34:06 PM
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iluvatar
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It's a tough issue, because in theory, you should be able to discuss the merits of both, but in practice such a discussion requires a proficiency of the subject matter not usually possessed by high school students. Given that the scientific community overwhelmingly supports the validity of evolution as a scientific theory describing various aspect of earth's biodiversity, and the fact that most people who bring up the subject have some sort of agenda they're trying to push, any "evidence" presented against evolution is likely going to come under serious scrutiny - and to what end? To get the district embroiled in an unnecessary controversy?
Given that it is not permissible to teach creationism in schools, I would think it would be more acceptable if the subject was covered in the context of giving an overview of the controversy (as one would talk about the JFK assassination, UFO, or Roswell conspiracies in a current events class), rather than having the teacher actually promote the anti-evolutionist views.
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 10/20/2009 9:52:51 PM >
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 9:40:47 PM
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drmark
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quote:
there isn't much "anti-evolutionist" material out there that isn't flavored with some sort of ID/creationist spin. Well, I wonder why that is! Ever stop to think, Dan, that there is essentially no science curriculum for the public classroom that doesn't reek of uniformitarian naturalism? Who needs "spin" when the state controls the religion?!
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 9:52:33 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
there isn't much "anti-evolutionist" material out there that isn't flavored with some sort of ID/creationist spin. Well, I wonder why that is!
It's because very few creationists bother to do real research and instead spend their time & resources writing books and building museums directed at lay folks with little-to-no scientific training. It's because the majority of scientists with no axe to grind have found that evolution is a viable theory for their work.
But FWIW, I've since edited my post to be a bit more neutral.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 9:58:39 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But FWIW, I've since edited my post to be a bit nicer. Hip-hip-hooray, but it still doesn't change the simple fact that myriads of public school children around the world have the state-sponsored religion of uniformitarian naturalism rammed down their throats in "science" class! And that has nothing to do with your alleged quality of creationist research. BTW, have you actually ever read a technical paper by a creation scientist or attended a creation science symposium? I didn't think so...
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/20/2009 10:08:29 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But FWIW, I've since edited my post to be a bit nicer. Hip-hip-hooray, but it still doesn't change the simple fact that myriads of public school children around the world have the state-sponsored religion of uniformitarian naturalism rammed down their throats in "science" class!
But it does address the OP's question, which was about what was permissible for a public school teacher to discuss.
quote:
BTW, have you actually ever read a technical paper by a creation scientist or attended a creation science symposium?
Yeah, I read one of the RATE group's papers on the change in radioactive decay rates.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/22/2009 5:41:01 PM
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cih92
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Would it be permissible for public school teachers to take some time in their classes to try to refute the claims of the creationists?
< Message edited by cih92 -- 10/22/2009 5:48:10 PM >
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/22/2009 6:29:10 PM
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drmark
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The entire curriculum is designed to refute creationism! Why would any science teacher need to take time to do what they're already doing? Uniformitarian naturalism is the religion of scientism which is taught almost exclusively in every public classroom in America.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/24/2009 1:17:35 PM
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stellaluna
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cih92--Your questions are best answered at the local school level, not the national (or even state) level. Parents guide curriculum. If your school doesn't teach enough of anything, it's because the parents have not asked for it or been involved in the selection.
Further, I don't personally believe, after many years in public school and after seeing dozens and dozens of children (that I know personally) come through public school, that science curriculum alters the thinking as much as some would like us to believe.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/27/2009 9:21:27 AM
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Sayen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
Would it be permissible for public school teachers to take some time in their classes to try to refute the claims of the creationists?
A teacher is bound by the curriculum, usually dictated by the state standards. This will vary by school and district, but not too much. Some schools require teachers to follow a lockstep plan where everyone teaches the same thing the same day, others give more freedom. I highly doubt a teacher could refute creationism unless it is specifically in the standards, as that's trodding pretty heavily on the religious community's toes. If it came up in a class discussing, a teacher can typically get away with at least presenting what the argument is, but not making the argument themselves.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/29/2009 9:57:30 AM
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KaptZ
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I think the teachers in public school should be bound to teach theories that modern science holds as most probable. Evolution is a theory, but the best one science has come up with to date.
Maybe someday there will be a breakthrough and evolutionary theories will be shown to be false or misdirected. Best to let scientists correct their own mistakes as more information is discovered.
Creation is a article of faith. Trying to base it on science or even debate the two in the same realm is a waste of time.
< Message edited by KaptZ -- 10/29/2009 10:04:01 AM >
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/29/2009 11:25:29 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Creation is a article of faith. Trying to base it on science or even debate the two in the same realm is a waste of time. Evolution is a article of faith. Trying to base it on science or even debate the two in the same realm is a waste of time.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/30/2009 12:17:28 PM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Creation is a article of faith. Trying to base it on science or even debate the two in the same realm is a waste of time. Evolution is a article of faith. Trying to base it on science or even debate the two in the same realm is a waste of time.
Evolution is a theory in my book because no one debates it was thought up by a man. Man's ideas can be proven wrong by other men. Can God's?
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/30/2009 12:51:44 PM
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drmark
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Actually, KaptZ, evolution is not even a hypothesis since there is absolutely no way to test its validity with observational scientific methodology. But I do agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of God's truth! There is not one single verse of Scripture that even remotely supports evolution as a result of uniformitarian naturalism causing earth's biodiversity.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/30/2009 1:02:48 PM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Actually, KaptZ, evolution is not even a hypothesis since there is absolutely no way to test its validity with observational scientific methodology. But I do agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of God's truth! There is not one single verse of Scripture that even remotely supports evolution as a result of uniformitarian naturalism causing earth's biodiversity.
That's why I read science books to see 'HOW' the world works and look to the Bible only for the 'WHY'.....
< Message edited by KaptZ -- 10/30/2009 1:09:56 PM >
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 10/31/2009 9:10:35 AM
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JuliaHop
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cih92: I agree that it would depend upon your district and the educational climate of your area.
I personally have no problem if a teacher were to give both viewpoints...teaching what those who support the truth of the Creation and the beliefs of those who support evolutionary theory, but, I am a Christian who believes in new earth creationism. I firmly believe that evolutionary theory is being pushed in the educational standards by those who are trying to weaken our faith in God. In our state evolution is taught across all curriculum...not necessary for the proper education of a child, but, obviously seen as necessary to continue to indoctrinate our children.
You can tell from the way this thread has been traveling what type of difficulties a public school teacher could face. THis is a Christian forum and yet it would appear that some have entered this conversation to continue to debate their evolutionary theory rather than to respond to the original question.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/6/2009 7:45:15 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JuliaHop
You can tell from the way this thread has been traveling what type of difficulties a public school teacher could face. THis is a Christian forum and yet it would appear that some have entered this conversation to continue to debate their evolutionary theory rather than to respond to the original question.
Well, I guess that's directed at me since I'm the only in this thread obviously on the other side of this debate.
It is a difficult question, because the meat of it can't truly be addressed without getting into the specifics of why the bulk of scientists believe evolution to be correct and why they believe young-earth creationism to be false.
quote:
I firmly believe that evolutionary theory is being pushed in the educational standards by those who are trying to weaken our faith in God. In our state evolution is taught across all curriculum...not necessary for the proper education of a child, but, obviously seen as necessary to continue to indoctrinate our children.
That topic is being discussed in another thread here
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/6/2009 8:17:28 PM
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creationtalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
Just out of curiosity, would it be permissible for a public school teacher to talk about the scientific evidence against the theory of evolution as long as he or she does not teach that a supernatural cause is responsible for the existence of the universe and life here on earth?
It is LEGAL for a public school teacher to discuss the scientific evidence against the theory of evolution, or any other theory. However, there may be consequences regardless of how it is done.
There are several books, some by non-Christian/non-creationists, that talk about problems with Darwinian evolution. I have written a few referenced papers that discuss some of the problems with evolution. One very good book written for use in public schools is called "Of Pandas and People" I believe the author is Dean Kenyon, but I can't find my copy right now so I'm not sure. Other options are to get a list of scientific journal articles where the authors discuss issues with the evidence for evolution.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/6/2009 8:51:08 PM
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creationtalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
I think the teachers in public school should be bound to teach theories that modern science holds as most probable.
Perhaps you should read a few public school texts. I have read public school science books that promote the Gaia hypothesis...the idea that the earth is a living organism. I don't think that this is a theory that "modern science" holds as most probable. However, it is there in the classroom being taught to students.
Also I learned something very important when I was working on one of my first research projects--which eventually became my dissertation...if you don't QUESTION the current theories, then no new theories will ever arise. I was studying a system, I'd read all the papers on the experiments and the theories to explain the experiments by the "experts" in the field. It all made sense. I was doing my work presuming the theories were correct...then someone challenged me. I was at a poster presentation of the work we were doing when someone asked me if I believed what was on the poster. I was kind of surprised, but I said I guess I did. He told me he didn't believe it, and he wanted me to either tell him the theory was wrong or prove to him it was right. I took the challenge. And guess what? A master's thesis and Ph.D. dissertation later, I proved that the accepted theory was wrong. Something that would never have happened if I hadn't questioned the current theory.
I have worked in research for almost 20 years. And I always try to keep at the forefront the idea that the current theory--mine or "popular" might be wrong...I've learned to question. Sometimes I find that the assumptions and/or theory holds up, other times I've found it conditional, other times I've found it failed. But if it had not been for that challenge back in 1991, I'm not sure that I would have even thought to question the "experts." I would be a much poorer scientist were that the case.
I think that every science student should be taught to question everything they are told--to examine every statement to determine if it is a FACT (something that is observed and agreed upon by all observers) or a story about a fact. For example: I have a rock. the rock is a fact. Everyone who sees it will agree it's a rock. However, if I say that the rock was formed in a volcano 20 million years ago...that is a story about the fact. I may have evidence that the rock was formed in a volcano. I can show its similarities to other rocks formed in volcanoes, etc.--I can build a body of evidence in support of the story that the rock is volcanic. Quite likely I can demonstrate that the rock is volcanic with a high degree of probability. However, when I get to the "age" of the rock, I have introduced a lot more assumptions than had to be made to determine the type of rock. Some of the assumptions may be based on other stories, which are based on other stories.... Whether or not my 'age' for the rock is accepted by others will depend on how much confidence they place on the various stories used to establish the age. Since there were no observers 20 million years ago, the "age" of the rock will never be more than a WAG (wildly approximate guess)...and sometimes without the "approximate" part.
quote:
Maybe someday there will be a breakthrough and evolutionary theories will be shown to be false or misdirected. Best to let scientists correct their own mistakes as more information is discovered.
You are making a dangerous assumption here--that scientists who discover evidence to the contrary of evolution or the current dogma will be allowed to publish--or even to be able to keep doing research. Recent history does not give me a lot of confidence in this assumption.
I know some very skilled, intelligent scientists who will choose to disbelieve ANY evidence that evolution is false...because they fully understand the consequences if evolution is falsified and do not want to accept them.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/6/2009 10:23:27 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
One very good book written for use in public schools is called "Of Pandas and People"
I don't know good it is for public schools seeing as how "Of Pandas and People" was at the center of the Kitzmiller v Dover decision condemning ID as religious creationism and the teaching of it a violation of the 1st Amendment.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/7/2009 4:06:44 AM
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locomom
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The problem we have found with some of the common anti-evolution arguments is that they rely on the average person's understanding of science. Like the average person's understanding of physics, biology, etc., there are good many half-truth and common misuses of both the science and the methods of scientific argumentation. You have to be willing to gain an adequate understanding of the science involved to evaluate the truths on both sides.
There is a fascinating book, Darwin's Black Box, that is a detailed completely non-creationist, scientific argument against evolution. It is written on two levels mixed together. The more technical parts that give the science or math details are in a gray background while the regular text is in the usual white background.
< Message edited by locomom -- 11/7/2009 4:12:51 AM >
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/13/2009 8:55:12 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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As a teacher in a public school, I can tell you that most teachers ARE bound by the system's curriculum. And for a variety of reasons those curricula seem to be evolution-oriented. Several years back, a teacher did attempt to - in a non-biased way - present other views, and he was sorely rebuked. Several (though only a handful) parents cried foul due to "separation of church and state." It was interesting. You would have thought that the Christian community would have rallied around him. But many were disappointed that he didn't "go to the mat" and lose his job. I mean, the guy had a family to support.
Even though we are a small town, with a large university here, we do have to be careful. There will always be at least one parents who will go for the jugular if you even appear to step a toe over that line. I am waiting for the day that my "Winter Program" is censored - even though sacred music is one of the foundations of music history.
This is just another example of how "tolerance" really only cuts one way.
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RE: Teaching the scientifice evidence against evolution - 11/13/2009 9:52:07 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
As a teacher in a public school, I can tell you that most teachers ARE bound by the system's curriculum. And for a variety of reasons those curricula seem to be evolution-oriented. Several years back, a teacher did attempt to - in a non-biased way - present other views, and he was sorely rebuked. Several (though only a handful) parents cried foul due to "separation of church and state." It was interesting. You would have thought that the Christian community would have rallied around him. But many were disappointed that he didn't "go to the mat" and lose his job. I mean, the guy had a family to support.
Even though we are a small town, with a large university here, we do have to be careful. There will always be at least one parents who will go for the jugular if you even appear to step a toe over that line. I am waiting for the day that my "Winter Program" is censored - even though sacred music is one of the foundations of music history.
This is just another example of how "tolerance" really only cuts one way.
This is important. The Christian community (Christian parents particularly) tend to sit back and complain that "God has been taken out of our schools" but do absolutely nothing to support those in the trenches, like this man (who really did nothing wrong in the first place). Christian parents should be at every PTA meeting, at every school board meeting, at every candidate forum leading up to school board elections, at every textbook hearing, etc. They are not there.
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