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Romans 7 Past or Present
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Total Votes : 13
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(last vote on : 11/14/2009 9:07:34 AM)
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Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/6/2009 5:12:11 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Is he speaking here in a past are present state, about his condition in this chapter? And do we take chapter 6 before and 8 after into consideration?
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." F20 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Thanks and God Bless
R Dove
< Message edited by DoveMinistries -- 11/6/2009 5:45:48 PM >
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/6/2009 5:16:21 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
This sums it up, imo.
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Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/6/2009 5:30:30 PM
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LCannon
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
This sums it up, imo.
Present or past what? Paul is making a declarative statement surety not a qualitative one.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 11/6/2009 5:39:01 PM >
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/6/2009 7:08:12 PM
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rcjames
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Romans 7 is Paul reflecting on his prior state, actually two prior states, before he knew the law, and then when he knew the law and it showed him his sin.
Romans 5-8 should be read and studied together to get an honest assessment of what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul.
It is a wonderful, faith building, and heart warming read.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/8/2009 10:08:39 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Would realy like a little more imput on this poll, you dont have to make reply but please cast a vote. Thanks
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/8/2009 10:44:28 PM
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mosess8
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Paul was not talking about himself at all. Rather he is giving a synopsis of the history of manking.
Alive without the law=Adam to Moses
The law came and sin revived=Moses to the coming of Christ
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?=The coming of Jesus Christ with the answer!
Paul was a hebrew of hebrews who was circumcised on the 8th day after his birth as all of them were. He was under the law for as long as he personally could have remembered. He was only alive without the law for 7 days. This tells me that he cannot be speaking of himself.
The things the jews wanted to do (obey the law) they could not because they did not have the Holy Spirit within to strengthen them.
So I cannot vote because my position is not one of the choices given.
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/9/2009 12:19:32 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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Not only is Paul speaking of himself, verse 24, O wretched man that I am, can only mean himself, but he is at that point, that we all must arrive to understand that we can not save ourself.
Chapter 6 speaks to living in God's righteousness; Chapter 7, who we are by ourself, which will never be righteous, and contrasts to chapter 8, who we are in the righteousness of Christ.
We must all come to the conclusion that we are wretched men and women apart from Jesus Christ living in us.
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/10/2009 5:48:55 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Poll is spilt at 3 to 3 on past or present, needing more imput on poll please.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/13/2009 10:41:19 PM
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mosess8
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Not only is Paul speaking of himself, verse 24, O wretched man that I am, can only mean himself, but he is at that point, that we all must arrive to understand that we can not save ourself.
Chapter 6 speaks to living in God's righteousness; Chapter 7, who we are by ourself, which will never be righteous, and contrasts to chapter 8, who we are in the righteousness of Christ.
We must all come to the conclusion that we are wretched men and women apart from Jesus Christ living in us.
When was Paul alive without the law?
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 9:14:23 AM
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drmark
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quote:
When was Paul alive without the law? I'm no Jewish scholar, but I think the age of accountability for Law-related issues was around 13.
I fully agree with mysteryofgospel and the interpretation of Romans 7 as using the present tense as a literary device for emphasis when Paul was unsaved. However, I also feel an excellent interpretation of chapter 7 is to refer to Christians who have not yet had their sinful nature removed.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 9:16:15 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mosess8
When was Paul alive without the law?
Paul writes;
(Rom 7:9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
So since Paul was born into Judaism, this is just more evidence that he is writing the history of mankind in relation to sin or that he was refering to the age before he became a man (around age 12 I think). Either way chapter is past tense before salvation through Christ.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 10:21:08 AM
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qalel
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Romans 7:22-23 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
How could that possibly be past tense before salvation through Christ? Who delights in God's law? When he says, It is no longer I who do it, but sin living in me, how can that be pre-salvation? Before salvation, the sin nature is the whole person.
"Who will save me from this body of death?" What tense is that, a past future?
And when was Paul an immature Christian who had not yet had his sin nature removed? He went straight from being a Pharisee who was utterly devoted to obeying the law, to a Christian who saw the risen and glorified Christ and devoted his new life to Christ. Maybe the three days he was blind? Not much sin he could get into then.
Besides, doesn't the very fact that a person can be a Christian who hasn't yet had his sin nature removed contradict everything that has been said about how you can not be a Christian and continue to sin?
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 11:29:11 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: qalel
Romans 7:22-23 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
How could that possibly be past tense before salvation through Christ?
What else could it be; as a Pharisee he would delight in God's law, but before he became a Christian he still served his sinful nature; Paul writes that very plainly here;
(Rom 6:17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
quote:
Besides, doesn't the very fact that a person can be a Christian who hasn't yet had his sin nature removed contradict everything that has been said about how you can not be a Christian and continue to sin?
The thinking that one can be a Christian and still have his old sin nature is flat out counter-Scriptural;
(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
One is either saved and a new creature or one isn't.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/14/2009 4:34:06 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 2:59:50 PM
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qalel
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There is no way that Romans 7 can be describing Paul's Pharisaical past. It describes an inner struggle to do good but failing. There's no way a Pharisee would ever say, "The evil that I don't want to do, that I do." Like you, a Pharisee denied there was any struggle in him, denied that anything he did was anything other than the good he wanted to do. How could Paul describe his Pharisaical past-life as, "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."? Who is the "I" who is someone separate from the sin that was living in him, since at that time he did not have a new spiritual man?
He says early in the chapter, "9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." And yet, as Pharisee he considered himself very much alive and sin-free. He only discovered that the commandment brought death after he came to faith and realized he was an unworthy sinner. And it is after that that he says "The evil I don't want to do, that I do...Who will rescue me from this body of death?"
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 4:33:24 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: qalel
Like you, a Pharisee denied there was any struggle in him, denied that anything he did was anything other than the good he wanted to do.
Trying to get a little personal here huh. I have never said there was no struggle, only that any Beliver does not have a sin nature, and is no longer a slave (has to) sin.
As for the rest of your post, I simple disagree with your exergesis.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 7:33:34 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Original: galel
quote:
be a Christian and continue to sin?
Wrong tread.
Question was: Romans 7 Past or Present, we are debating that in here.
You will need to go to E1NG tread to debate is it possible for a christian to quit sining.
Thank You
and God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 8:43:45 PM
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Kath
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quote:
Like you, a Pharisee denied ...
Lets remember the Terms of Service as one responds in this thread. It could read you are calling another member a Pharisee.
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/14/2009 9:46:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The thinking that one can be a Christian and still have his old sin nature is flat out counter-Scriptural; I'm sorry, RC, but if I understand correctly what you're saying here, then I must strongly disagree! There are numerous examples in Paul's letters which specifically refer to "carnal Christians" who have not yet been cleansed of their sinful nature. The classic passage is 1 Cor 3:1-3 but I could find many more. Indeed, I personally believe that Romans 7 is an excellent description of a Christian still struggling with her/his sinful nature. What better cry for help is there than 7:21-24? How could a lost sinner want to do good and delight in God's Law? No, this is clearly a carnal Christian who has come to the realization that there is so much more than mere justification in the Atonement. There is also sanctification with cleansing from sin and empowerment to live a righteous life in the Spirit!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/15/2009 9:23:18 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The thinking that one can be a Christian and still have his old sin nature is flat out counter-Scriptural; I'm sorry, RC, but if I understand correctly what you're saying here, then I must strongly disagree! There are numerous examples in Paul's letters which specifically refer to "carnal Christians" who have not yet been cleansed of their sinful nature. The classic passage is 1 Cor 3:1-3 but I could find many more. Indeed, I personally believe that Romans 7 is an excellent description of a Christian still struggling with her/his sinful nature. What better cry for help is there than 7:21-24? How could a lost sinner want to do good and delight in God's Law? No, this is clearly a carnal Christian who has come to the realization that there is so much more than mere justification in the Atonement. There is also sanctification with cleansing from sin and empowerment to live a righteous life in the Spirit!
drmark, you are certainly entitled to disagree with me. I base my extrapolation on the following verses;
(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Chrstian = new creature = old things are passed away = all things are become new.
(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Rom 6:19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
(Rom 6:20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
This passage clearly demonstrates that a Christian is no longer a slave to sin (Sin nature), but that Christinans are servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Now does this happen immediately, I think so, that the sanctification process begins the very moment the Holy Spirit indwells us, and we grow on unto complete sanctification.
But I do maintain that the sin nature is no longer in a Christian, but that a Christain can still sin. If this growth process unto complete sanctification seems to take forever, then the person is not being led by the Spirit, but by the flesh and I would humbly ask them to consider this verse;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
So that they may avoid running afoul of Matthew 7: 20-23
Yes a Christian can choose to sin, and a Christian can coose to act carnally, but the "sin nature" left when the Holy Spirit moved in.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/15/2009 2:44:14 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please take the discussion about the sin nature to THIS THREAD. The OP has requested that this thread stay on the topic of whether Romans 7 is past or present, not whether or not Christians have a sin nature or will continue to sin.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Romans 7 Past or Present - 11/20/2009 8:54:28 PM
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DoveMinistries
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So going by the poll, this is a Past statement. as decided by votes cast.
Unless some more polling comes in this thread, as it stands right now it is a Past statement, and it will be used as a deciding factor when this topic is brought up in other treads.
Thank You for casting your vote.
God Bless
R Dove
< Message edited by DoveMinistries -- 11/20/2009 9:01:03 PM >
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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