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Revelation Revealed - 11/10/2009 3:00:57 PM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
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Revelation 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell on the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
( They tormented them that dwelt on the earth with “ The Truth ” because they that dwell on the earth can’t handle “ The Truth.” )
where also our Lord was crucified.
Jesus ( The last Hasmonean King of Israel, ) was crucified, after a failed attempt to overthrow Roman rule in Israel. He cheated death on the cross, and went into secret hiding. ( Christianity came about because of the missing body, it was the only way at that time, they could explain the prophesies.) Jesus later died on Masada at the age of eighty.
After the disappearance of Jesus’ body, and rumors of him being sighted alive, Jews who new and believed the prophesies, came to the conclusion that Jesus must have resurrected from the dead. Paul ran with the idea from there. The four “ gospels “ where fabricated at the council of Nicea
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined on your people and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.
to the Messiah the Prince 69 weeks
And after 62 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, Jesus was crucified, ( 31 years old ) A difference of 7 weeks or 49 years Jesus died on Masada at ( 80 years old ) the
Messiah the Prince to appear at the end of the 69th week to be killed in the middle of 70th week. Messiah killed on Masada 69th week, resurrected on mount Zion three and one half years into the 70th week as Messiah the Prince, to return as King.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell on them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
( The remnant here are the remnant of Israel, 144,000 will be “sealed“ because they will believe “The Truth“ of the two witnesses. )
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe comes quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell on their faces, and worshiped God, 17 Saying, We give you thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which are, and were, and are to come; because you have taken to you your great power, and have reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward to your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ?, and “he shall reign for ever and ever?“. We give thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which are, and where, and are to come, because you have taken to you your great power? When did he take to himself his great power?, and have reigned. And the nations were angry? This was all fulfilled in this chapter, not two thousand years ago. He fulfilled the prophesies about himself in this very chapter, and they did to him what they say the Jews did to him two thousand years ago. He is one of the two witnesses, who is the other one? What “Truth” are they witnessing to the world? They are the two candlesticks and the two olive trees standing before The Throne Of God.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightning, and voices, and thunder, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Zechariah 4
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And said to me, What see you? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are on the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl, and the other on the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spoke to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said to me, Know you not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, said the LORD of hosts. 7 Who are you, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace to it.
8 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10 For who has despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Know you not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
Revelation 11 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
In Revelation 11 “they are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the whole earth“ ( two lights of God in the earth. )
In Zechariah 4 “after their resurrection”, they are the two anointed ones that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
( end of verse 10 ) “with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth,“ ( during the final three and one half years. )
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
“his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:” ( These are Satan’s angels, prepared for the battle with Michael and his angels. )
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.
( The woman “Israel,” travails while the two witnesses prophesy fore three and one half years. The man child is brought forth when he resurrects. )
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens, and you that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.
“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,” ( The Lamb that was killed in Revelation 11:7 ) “ And they overcame him by the word of their testimony,” ( There testimony about his blood, and his kingdom ) “and they loved not their lives unto death.”
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. ( They overcame him by the word of their testimony. )
Revelation 13
1 And I stood on the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like to a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power to the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like to the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given to him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
( Revelation 13 is a detailed description of Revelation 12:13. )
Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, see, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
“not defiled with women, for they are virgins.” ( The opposite of being seduced by the Harlot and her daughters in Revelation 13. )
White Horse
6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Red Horse
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Black Horse
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Pale Horse
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from now on: Yes, said the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and on the cloud one sat like to the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the wine press, even to the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Revelation 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are your works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are your ways, you King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear you, O Lord, and glorify your name? for you only are holy: for all nations shall come and worship before you; for your judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave to the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightning; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were on the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell on men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great
Revelation 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given to him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
( Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. )
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given to him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and see a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the middle of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see you hurt not the oil and the wine.
( Those who refuse the mark of the beast will receive a days worth of bread for a days labor, the anointing will not be hurt. )
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
( This will be accomplished by The Pail Horse and He That Sat On Him. )
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, see, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 7 ( Gives the details of events that take place between the fifth and sixth seals.)
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits on the throne, and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and from where came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the middle of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
( They came out of great tribulation when the earth was reaped in Revelation 14:14 )
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Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/10/2009 3:32:42 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11301
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quote:
Jesus ( The last Hasmonean King of Israel, ) was crucified, after a failed attempt to overthrow Roman rule in Israel. He cheated death on the cross, and went into secret hiding. ( Christianity came about because of the missing body, it was the only way at that time, they could explain the prophesies.) Jesus later died on Masada at the age of eighty.
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< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 11/10/2009 3:40:27 PM >
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/10/2009 7:51:51 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
The four “ gospels “ where fabricated at the council of Nicea
There is absoutely no valid evidence for that claim. Anyone who seriously studies the history surrounding the four Gospel accounts of the New Testament will come to the conclusion that three of the four (Matthew, Mark and Luke) were written before 100 CE, and most will agree that John was too. At the outset, John was written no later than 150 CE.
And before you say that I'm the one ignoring the evidence, please answer me one question - how long have you studied the Bible in a formal, accredited, academic setting?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/11/2009 12:32:19 AM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
Posts: 34
Joined: 10/21/2009
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quote:
Anyone who seriously studies the history surrounding the four Gospel accounts of the New Testament will come to the conclusion that three of the four (Matthew, Mark and Luke) were written before 100 CE, and most will agree that John was too. At the outset, John was written no later than 150 CE.
Where is the valid evidence for this claim
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Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/11/2009 12:38:49 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Where is the valid evidence for this claim
You obviously missed the rest of my post. I will restate my question.
"And before you say that I'm the one ignoring the evidence, please answer me one question - how long have you studied the Bible in a formal, accredited, academic setting?"
But to answer your question - look in any respected book on the subject of bibliology, or a good critical commentary. You could also use a non-critical commentary, but those tend to be more biased towards the traditional Christian viewpoint, so you would probably be less likely to believe them.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/11/2009 3:57:45 AM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
Posts: 34
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Been seeking Truth for thirty years, waded through a lot of false truth to get where I am now.
Never been brainwashed in a formal, accredited, academic setting.
quote:
But to answer your question - look in any respected book on the subject of bibliology, or a good critical commentary. You could also use a non-critical commentary, but those tend to be more biased towards the traditional Christian viewpoint, so you would probably be less likely to believe them.
Who wrote these sources?
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Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/11/2009 12:52:23 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Never been brainwashed in a formal, accredited, academic setting.
Interesting choice of words.
Let me ask you a question. Imagine you have to go in to have a serious surgery done - a heart bypass, or a brain procedure of some kind. Would you go to someone who wasn't a doctor, had never studied medicine formally, but had been seeking medical knowledge for the past thirty years? Or would you go to someone who had gone through medical school and received their accreditation from the medical community?
Similarly, why should I trust your "truth," when it goes against everything I have been taught by people who hold doctorates in religious studies, people who can read the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible like it's English, people who have traveled to Israel to take part in professional archaeological study? And given my consistent 4.0 GPA as a Religion major (which, please understand, I do not bring up out of pride, but to demonstrate that I have been paying attention in these "brainwashing sessions"), why should you doubt that I know what I'm talking about?
quote:
Who wrote these sources?
You expect me to remember the author of every textbook I've ever read?
But, here's one I have on hand that you should be able to trust. http://www.amazon.com/Heritage-World-Civilizations-1-8th/dp/0136002773/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257962139&sr=8-2
It's not a religious textbook, let alone a Christian one. It is written by historians from Yale and Harvard, which only the most unobservant would consider places actively pushing the Christian worldview. Yet they write, on page 209, that the Gospel of Mark was written "toward 70 CE," long before the council of Nicea.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/11/2009 8:32:43 PM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
Posts: 34
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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A doctor or even an auto mechanic, the study of the human body or the workings of the automobile, this is education of the tangible, very necessary for the performing of an operation or the repair of my car.
I could receive degrees in science and present all of the “ facts” of evolution, or I could hold doctorates in religious studies and be a religious theologian.
Do not underestimate a heart that seeks God and truth. The steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. The truth I hold in my heart, is not my truth, but truth revealed by God as he opened the eyes of my understanding.
My journey began with a covenant I made with God in 1977. I almost lost my firstborn son to a threatened miscarriage. As I rushed my wife to the hospital, while she hemorrhaged blood, I spoke to God, and I told him if he let my son live, I would serve him and get my family to serve him.
My son lives, along with three more sons and a daughter, and three stepsons. God did his part. My journey walked me through Christianity and five churches. I did not just root myself in church, and try to find a safe comfortable place to dwell. I tried to follow light, where there was none. I became home bible study director and prophesy teacher. I dealt with the people and the preachers and life’s situations looking for something real. I experienced Satan appearing as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness. I’ve seen and experienced many people and things on my journey, and it truly is line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, hear a little, there a little.
My story is a long one, to long to go into detail here. Each church I passed through was a different chapter. After five chapters I found myself at The King of Clubs, with my Harley, a beer in my hand, and a new set of friends, still teaching people about God and prophecy, still being real to myself and God.
I had spent my life following a light but not being able to attain to it. I always thought I would be a preacher of some sort, and I didn’t understand how life had brought me to where I was at the time. I was in the sixth chapter now, While the band was taking a break, and my friends were away from my table, I sat alone contemplating. After a few minuets I spoke to God and I said, God? Your going to have to explain this to me. That’s all it took, it was like he pulled up a chair and took all of the puzzle pieces of my life, put them together for me, and as he left he spoke to me and said, just be patient, this is where your supposed to be for now.
It was at The King Of Clubs that I met my eternal soul mate. Since then we have entered into my seventh chapter, the chapter that will bring to perfection.
In 2007 thirty years after the covenant I made with God ( really he made a covenant with me ) , one night around midnight, I was walking down a road in the darkness in the hills of Kentucky. I was following the white line along the side of the road, and I had walked about six miles, and God spoke to me. He said this has been my life, walking through the darkness, following a white line. There were breaks in the line where I couldn’t see anything then it would appear again as I walked and God said this symbolizes your life, when you reach a point where you can’t take another step on your own, and you don’t see a line to follow, I will carry you the rest of the way. The week before this happened, I had just learned, according to Jewish law a priests must be thirty years old before he can enter his priesthood.
In 1997, I was attending a men’s fellowship breakfast at my church, the brothers and I were going to look at a building we intended to purchase. We had a small prayer meeting and I became caught up in a spirit of prayer. The brothers left me there and I was still in a spirit of prayer when they returned. I remember telling God during that prayer that I wanted to know the height of him, the breadth of him, and the depth of him. I also prayed earnestly that I wanted to die, and for him to live in me, his life, his breath, his spirit. Guess what? He has shone me and continues to show me the height, breadth, and depth of him, and I have died, and he does live in me, his life his breath, his spirit.
_____________________________
Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 9:45:49 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 336
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Never been brainwashed in a formal, accredited, academic setting.
Interesting choice of words.
Let me ask you a question. Imagine you have to go in to have a serious surgery done - a heart bypass, or a brain procedure of some kind. Would you go to someone who wasn't a doctor, had never studied medicine formally, but had been seeking medical knowledge for the past thirty years? Or would you go to someone who had gone through medical school and received their accreditation from the medical community?
Similarly, why should I trust your "truth," when it goes against everything I have been taught by people who hold doctorates in religious studies, people who can read the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible like it's English, people who have traveled to Israel to take part in professional archaeological study? And given my consistent 4.0 GPA as a Religion major (which, please understand, I do not bring up out of pride, but to demonstrate that I have been paying attention in these "brainwashing sessions"), why should you doubt that I know what I'm talking about?
quote:
Who wrote these sources?
You expect me to remember the author of every textbook I've ever read?
But, here's one I have on hand that you should be able to trust. http://www.amazon.com/Heritage-World-Civilizations-1-8th/dp/0136002773/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257962139&sr=8-2
It's not a religious textbook, let alone a Christian one. It is written by historians from Yale and Harvard, which only the most unobservant would consider places actively pushing the Christian worldview. Yet they write, on page 209, that the Gospel of Mark was written "toward 70 CE," long before the council of Nicea.
I don't agree with Voice in the Dark's conclusions but I also have thoughts that your viewpoint may also has some stumbling blocks built in, 'accept without question'. Both your worldly examples arrived at their current state through a long list of failures. A mechanic who worked on engines in the 20's would be lost on today's engines. That doesn't apply to Scripture because with the various doctrines around it would be multiple choice on your two examples. One single method would be used in your examples.
Even with your paying attention you still had the obligation to yourself to check that what the 'brainwashers' were telling you was actually what you felt the passage being referenced actually meant. Having support from separate passages is your proof if something is factual or not.
Why so many text-books? In the end they are just the opinions of men who may or may not have understood certain Scriptures accurately. Yale and Harvard might not be all that accurate as they were not there personally, so they are working on what has already been said about the topic. If the Scriptures are to be believed then these words were written by the writer when they were still alive.
Joh:21:24:
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things,
and wrote these things:
and we know that his testimony is true.
The NT is based on writings that were written in Greek. Does that mean Paul went to the Gentiles with nothing? Most likely the Gospels (all 4) were written down when this verse was made manifest.
Joh:14:26:
But the Comforter,
which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
While the books from acts on could very well have been written in Greek originally the Gospels could have been in circulation from the time that Peter started to preach about the Kingdom of God to the Gentiles. At the various stops Paul made a copy of the 4 books could have been made, even translated into Greek.
quote:
ORIGINAL: VoiceInTheDarkness
Jesus ( The last Hasmonean King of Israel, ) was crucified, after a failed attempt to overthrow Roman rule in Israel. He cheated death on the cross, and went into secret hiding.
Why don't I start here and ask for some verses that supports any of the above. You wording seems to say that He was crucified but not really??? I have several passages that say things did not go the way you have outlined them. For one thing that would mean abandoning His followers.
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 11/12/2009 9:53:18 AM >
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 10:01:32 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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Voice,
quote:
Do not underestimate a heart that seeks God and truth. The steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. The truth I hold in my heart, is not my truth, but truth revealed by God as he opened the eyes of my understanding.
Do you know what this, and your whole story, sounds like? It sounds like what led to Mormonism, and the Jehova's Witness. People relying on "special revelation" and ignoring the accepted word of God. In your original post, you deny Jesus' death on the cross. I encourage you to take seriously the warning in Galatians 1:8-9. Paul preached Christ crucified, dead, buried and resurrected, not Christ escaping death and living somewhere else for the rest of his days. You are preaching a different gospel.
Warfaring,
quote:
Even with your paying attention you still had the obligation to yourself to check that what the 'brainwashers' were telling you was actually what you felt the passage being referenced actually meant. Having support from separate passages is your proof if something is factual or not.
If VoiceintheDarkness and I were disagreeing over the interpretation of some passage, you may have a point, but that's not the case. He denied the validity and truth of the four written Gospels, saying they were not written until circa 325 at the Council of Nicea. This directly contradicts established historical fact. You'll notice that despite his clamoring for my sources, he has not provided a sliver of evidence to back up his view except that "God revealed it to him." I hope you'll forgive me if I'm hesitant to accept that, since God has revealed something entirely different, with regard to the Gospel, to the billions of other people who follow Him.
< Message edited by MrFribbles -- 11/12/2009 10:10:58 AM >
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 2:25:11 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 336
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
If VoiceintheDarkness and I were disagreeing over the interpretation of some passage, you may have a point, but that's not the case. He denied the validity and truth of the four written Gospels, saying they were not written until circa 325 at the Council of Nicea.
That is one of his points that I disagree with. Even dating John into the year 150 or so would mean he was about that same age (id he was 30 when Jesus told him to follow.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
This directly contradicts established historical fact. You'll notice that despite his clamoring for my sources, he has not provided a sliver of evidence to back up his view except that "God revealed it to him."
Even out best sources of historical facts are not 'rock solid proofs'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I hope you'll forgive me if I'm hesitant to accept that, since God has revealed something entirely different, with regard to the Gospel, to the billions of other people who follow Him.
You are quite right to be hesitant, but that should apply to the doctrine proposed by Voice in the Darkness as well as the 'established views'. Both have to be verified. Hardly any of those billions will agree with everything that another promotes. I'm sure some glaring examples will show in the posts that follow.
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 2:37:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Even out best sources of historical facts are not 'rock solid proofs'.
Please quote where I said they were.
quote:
You are quite right to be hesitant, but that should apply to the doctrine proposed by Voice in the Darkness as well as the 'established views'. Both have to be verified. Hardly any of those billions will agree with everything that another promotes.
This is not a matter of minor doctrinal differences (millennial views, baptismal methods, etc.). This is a matter of denying the accepted canon of Scripture, denying the death of Jesus on the cross (along with the subsequent burial and resurrection), and preaching a different gospel, which Galatians 1:8-9 clearly condemns.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 3:57:43 PM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 185
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
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Voiceinthedarkness,
First of all, God doesn't make deals with anyone. We come to Christ in surrender, not as deal makers.
More importantly to deny that Christ was crucified makes man to be pitied as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:14-19. "And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty."
As a matter of fact we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ whom He did not raise up-if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men, the most pitiable.
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Voiceindarkness you have attacked the lynchpin of a Christian's belief and you have also attacked what Jesus said. I would hope you would reconsider your words.
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 5:11:00 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 336
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Please quote where I said they were.
It was this quote that this part of your post reminded me of, "I have been paying attention in these "brainwashing sessions"". Am I being bold in assuming you do have a reservation or two about some certain aspect of the coming prophecies and the way they actually unfold?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
This is not a matter of minor doctrinal differences (millennial views, baptismal methods, etc.). This is a matter of denying the accepted canon of Scripture, denying the death of Jesus on the cross (along with the subsequent burial and resurrection), and preaching a different gospel, which Galatians 1:8-9 clearly condemns.
I didn't mean to imply that it was a minor deviation from the 'norm', I am trying to find out what writings lead him to believe such things. As many things as the Bible does cover, most of those would have to come from (almost) pure speculation and a good deal of mixing things from several sources other than just the Bible.
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 7:58:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Am I being bold in assuming you do have a reservation or two about some certain aspect of the coming prophecies and the way they actually unfold?
I haven't commented one way or another on any prophesies. I am merely trying to demonstrate the dangerous teaching that is being posited on this thread about the truth value of the 4 Gospel accounts, and the death of Jesus on the cross.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 8:55:22 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 336
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I haven't commented one way or another on any prophesies. I am merely trying to demonstrate the dangerous teaching that is being posited on this thread about the truth value of the 4 Gospel accounts, and the death of Jesus on the cross.
I noticed that, nor do I remember being on the same thread with you at any point in the past. From the ones I have chatted with I don't fear that they will be swayed from their current understanding by the OP, no matter what path lead to the conclusions he has at the moment.
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/12/2009 11:53:33 PM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
Posts: 34
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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MrFribbles
You quote from the books composed by the Bishops of the church of Rome and called " The Word Of God ", as though it is the infallible truth, to dispute my claims.That is like quoting Darwin's origins of the species to prove creationist wrong.
Daniel 12
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go your way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
quote:
More importantly to deny that Christ was crucified makes man to be pitied as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:14-19. "And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty."
What made Paul the official spokes person for God? " The Acts of the Apostles " is more like The Acts of Paul, and the majority of the books of the New Testament were written by Paul.
The real concern is, did The Christ die and resurrect 2,000 years ago, or is this event yet to happen during Daniels 70th week?
Remember the purpose of the seventy weeks?
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined on your people and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
_____________________________
Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/13/2009 1:24:00 AM
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Milliecat
Posts: 995
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline
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Oh good grief! 
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
< Message edited by Milliecat -- 11/13/2009 1:37:09 AM >
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/13/2009 1:27:16 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2192
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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Voice,
I notice you still haven't responded to the textbook I provided. Are you going to provide substantial evidence to contradict the historians of Yale and Harvard?
quote:
You quote from the books composed by the Bishops of the church of Rome and called " The Word Of God ", as though it is the infallible truth, to dispute my claims.
No, I quote from books written under the inspiration of God.
I'm curious - why do you accept Revelation and Daniel as God's word, but not the other books of the New Testament?
quote:
What made Paul the official spokes person for God?
Nobody used the phrase "official spokes person" but you. But, to answer your question - Jesus Himself called Paul. Yes, Paul wrote much of the New Testament. I will repeat my question from above - why do you accept Revelation and Daniel, but ignore Paul? Do you believe the Gospel of John, along with 1, 2 and 3 John are God's word?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/13/2009 7:23:50 AM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
Posts: 34
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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Revelation totally agrees with the prophesies in Daniel. God postponed the 70th week for 2,000 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple, 2,000 years of darkness while Satan prepares for the final war with Michael and his angels.
Why do you think Masada was fortified by the Sicarii? Why do you think they held out to the end? They where protecting their King. When Masada was excavated by Yigael Yadin between 1963 and 1966 twenty five skeletal remains where discovered, together in one area, undisturbed. Why were the rest of the nine hundred or so bodies disposed of, but these where left undisturbed? Do you think it just might be possible that this was the Royal family of the Hasmonean Dynasty?, and they where left undisturbed to honor them?
Satan's goal is to prevent the Kingdom of God from being established during the 70th week. Satan, by the Roman Empire, destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, and as an added bonus Israel's King died on Masada during the 69th week. Satan thought he had won. Satan, as also the Jews, did not know the 70th week would be postponed for another 2,000 years.
The official religion of the Holy Roman Empire holds up a crucifix of Israel's King, dead and nailed to a cross. This is what Satan would have liked to have accomplished, and wants us to believe, but Jesus, the last Hasmonean King of Israel, did not die by the hand of his enemy.
_____________________________
Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/13/2009 7:33:19 AM
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VoiceInTheDarkness
Posts: 34
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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The answers to the rest of your questions are a bit complexed. I'm working on it, but I want to try and not be to lengthy. I will post it soon. Thanks, try to be patient.
_____________________________
Now is the time of the revealing of all things
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RE: Revelation Revealed - 11/13/2009 8:56:42 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11301
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
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Tricia
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