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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/4/2008 12:20:15 AM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
A very nice start. 
The world could well be becoming a better place.
Why do people insist on rrehashing the same old tired and worn out arguements?
Since people can't seem to pull themselves out of the past, why don't they start asking these retired generals what did they do to prevent the acts of terrorism we, and the world have experienced since 2001?
Who is this Gen. Joseph Hoar, and what did he do during his time in Central Command to sound the alarm about Islamic extremism, bin Laden, and the growing threat of terrorism?
When did the world's image of the United States change, except in the minds of those who do not like the United States in the first place?
The world has always had a complex view of the United States, and always will regardless of what we do, or do not do.
Torture is bad, but where and how do you think that the United States got the information it got to warn India of the terrorist attack that they just experienced? Some would-be martyr got caught, got tortured and spilled his guts about the attack before it happened.
Torture is a realistic tool to use against people bent on killing as many people as possible, and dying in the process.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 12/4/2008 11:55:25 PM >
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/4/2008 1:18:24 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
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Of course, that change to a better place could take a little time.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/4/2008 1:21:06 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
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quote:
The world could well be becoming a better place.
Tell that to the Jews in India.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/4/2008 2:24:10 AM
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schtumpy
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As compared to the Jews in the Inquisition?
Or the Jews in the Russian Pogroms of the 18th and 19th centuries?
Or that little matter of the Jews in Europe in the '30's and '40's?
It is becoming a better place.
This stuff is now being deplored and fought against rather than sanctioned or tolerated.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/4/2008 3:31:30 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
As compared to the Jews in the Inquisition?
Or the Jews in the Russian Pogroms of the 18th and 19th centuries?
Or that little matter of the Jews in Europe in the '30's and '40's?
It is becoming a better place.
This stuff is now being deplored and fought against rather than sanctioned or tolerated.
Well, as you just exemplified, 'better' is a matter of perspective - and the persecution of Jews continues in large parts of the world, more so today in Mumbai than last week.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/8/2008 3:54:36 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
A very nice start.
The world could well be becoming a better place.
Why do people insist on rrehashing the same old tired and worn out arguements?
Torture is a realistic tool to use against people bent on killing as many people as possible, and dying in the process.
Except that it doesn't work.
And it's use in Gitmo and Abu Graib (amongst other places) has cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/8/2008 12:20:11 PM
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Born_Again
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Forget about torture works or not, what amaze me the most that self proclaim Christian, Christians who claims they have witness Christ Love in their own lives support torture! We don’t need to go other side of the world to preach the gospel, right here in America we have plenty to do!
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/8/2008 3:44:56 PM
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tacitus
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What do you mean "torture doesn't work"? It works every single time Jack Bauer does it! And he only ever tortures the really bad guys with something to hide. He never tortures innocent people, so there's nothing wrong with it.
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 1:13:02 AM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 377
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Born_Again,
It would seem that you and I share something in common. Like you, it amases me how many self-proclaimed Christians do not fully understand what it means to be Christian, according to my understanding of the Bible.
I mean, we don't have to go to the other side of the world to preach that God and Jesus are about far more than love and being nice to one another. Love is about far more. Love takes various forms and requires much. Love requires discomfort, pain, and sacrifice. It means doing the right thing. It means layuing your life down for those who can not help themselves. Yes, it even means torturing bad guys in humane ways who believe themselves able and willing to murder innocent people and die for their cause.
We have enough to do to teach the gospel and the Christian message right here in America. A message we seem to be forgetting in our quest to be accepted and seen as more toleratant and loving.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 12/9/2008 2:41:33 PM >
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 2:54:12 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
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Leonfigg3, I think you may have misread Born Again.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 3:13:50 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Yes, it even means torturing bad guys in humane ways who believe themselves able and willing to murder innocent people and die for their cause.
Hmm.
The problem with this whole democracy thing is that none of these "bad guys" that we're "torturing in humane ways" (a fabulous oxymoron, thanks for that) have been neither tried nor convicted of anything.
You can torture all the bad guys you want, humanely or otherwise, but it's a bit rich to continue calling the system of government a democracy.
We've got all these pesky principles that get in the way.
Habeus corpus.
Presumption of innocence.
Yada yada yada.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 5:29:17 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1755
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Yes, it even means torturing bad guys in humane ways who believe themselves able and willing to murder innocent people and die for their cause.
Hmm.
The problem with this whole democracy thing is that none of these "bad guys" that we're "torturing in humane ways" (a fabulous oxymoron, thanks for that) have been neither tried nor convicted of anything.
You can torture all the bad guys you want, humanely or otherwise, but it's a bit rich to continue calling the system of government a democracy.
We've got all these pesky principles that get in the way.
Habeus corpus.
Presumption of innocence.
Yada yada yada.
Those pesky principles apply to American citizens on American soil. Terrorists don't apply.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 6:41:39 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
Joined: 12/2/2008
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So they're terrorists before they're tried or convicted?
Way to go.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 7:05:38 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 441
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!quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Forget about torture works or not, what amaze me the most that self proclaim Christian, Christians who claims they have witness Christ Love in their own lives support torture! We don’t need to go other side of the world to preach the gospel, right here in America we have plenty to do!
What amazes me is that self proclaimed christians, or anyone for that matter, would continue to undermine the efforts of our military and national leaders to protect us and fight evil in the world. The abuses at Abu Graib were not torture, and neither are the conditions at Gitmo. To call them such minimizes and insults the victims of real torture. The 'moral high ground' is something the childish left cannot even comprehend. They only seek the political high ground and use their moral relativism to get there.
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
So they're terrorists before they're tried or convicted?
Way to go.
American citizens, schtumpy! They're not American citizens!! The Constitution doesn't apply to them!! They will get military justice, as most of them already have. This is such a stupid exercise in national self flaggelation that the left has put America through. Give it up! The election is over. This propoganda no longer serves it's political purpose. Talk about yadda yadda...
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 9:22:10 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
Joined: 8/6/2008
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There's a lot of ends justifies the means in here.
I didn't figure this forum for a Utilitarian hangout.
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 9:28:49 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
The 'moral high ground' is something the childish left cannot even comprehend. They only seek the political high ground and use their moral relativism to get there.
The only moral relativists here are not those on the left, but those who think that torture is sometimes okay.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 11:05:33 AM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Born_Again,
It would seem that you and I share something in common. Like you, it amases me how many self-proclaimed Christians do not fully understand what it means to be Christian, according to my understanding of the Bible.
I mean, we don't have to go to the other side of the world to preach that God and Jesus are about far more than love and being nice to one another. Love is about far more. Love takes various forms and requires much. Love requires discomfort, pain, and sacrifice. It means doing the right thing. It means layuing your life down for those who can not help themselves. Yes, it even means torturing bad guys in humane ways who believe themselves able and willing to murder innocent people and die for their cause.
We have enough to do to teach the gospel and the Christian message right here in America. A message we seem to be forgetting in our quest to be accepted and seen as more toleratant and loving.
I guess we don’t read the same Bible!
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 12:06:10 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
!quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Forget about torture works or not, what amaze me the most that self proclaim Christian, Christians who claims they have witness Christ Love in their own lives support torture! We don’t need to go other side of the world to preach the gospel, right here in America we have plenty to do!
What amazes me is that self proclaimed christians, or anyone for that matter, would continue to undermine the efforts of our military and national leaders to protect us and fight evil in the world. The abuses at Abu Graib were not torture, and neither are the conditions at Gitmo. To call them such minimizes and insults the victims of real torture. The 'moral high ground' is something the childish left cannot even comprehend. They only seek the political high ground and use their moral relativism to get there.
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
So they're terrorists before they're tried or convicted?
Way to go.
American citizens, schtumpy! They're not American citizens!! The Constitution doesn't apply to them!! They will get military justice, as most of them already have. This is such a stupid exercise in national self flaggelation that the left has put America through. Give it up! The election is over. This propoganda no longer serves it's political purpose. Talk about yadda yadda...
quote:
fight evil
God brought the great flood to destroy the evil, then he regretted and said “ I will never do that again” . Instate of destroying the evil God sent His only son, the Son who had all the power to destroy all the evil of the world, he gave his life so that may remove the evil from the world.
Christians who thinks that we can overcome evil by waging war and fight according to flesh never understand what is true evil. The armor of God ;
Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Abu grab was not torture? Scripture says “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” I will let you interpret the verse!
It doesn’t matter if they are American or not. Are they human? If so threat them like one. They may not treat us like human, but are we not better then them. What does scripture says about treating you enemy? Or when it comes to save our own skin, we don’t need to follow scripture!
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 2:17:08 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Christians who thinks that we can overcome evil by waging war and fight according to flesh never understand what is true evil. The armor of God ;
Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Abu grab was not torture? Scripture says “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” I will let you interpret the verse!
It doesn’t matter if they are American or not. Are they human? If so threat them like one. They may not treat us like human, but are we not better then them. What does scripture says about treating you enemy? Or when it comes to save our own skin, we don’t need to follow scripture!
When are self proclaimed "holier than thou Christians" going to understand that the Bible, God's Word is directed at INDIVIDUALS, not countries or governments? His goal is directed at restoring a relationship with MAN (largely on an INDIVIDUAL basis) the relationship He had with them before Adam turned his back on God and tried to be like God?
Ephesians 6:10-18 has nothing to do with war, as it is commonly used, so your use of the Biblical passage in this discussion makes absolutely no sense. The passage clearly pertains to us, as individuals and our responsibility to guard ourselves from evil and our sin nature. It has absolutely nothing to do with countries at war, or the question ot whether or not torture is right.
When are self proclaimed "holier than thou Christians" going to understand that when Sin came into the world, everything changed? When Sin came into the world so did a sense of"
Right and wrong.
Good and Evil.
Crime and punishment
Consequences for actions and decisions
When are self proclaimed "hollier than thou Christians" going to realize that while God is a God of LOVE, God's view of Love is far greater than some kind of huge fuzzy feeling one has and tries to hold onto? It is something that has to be worked at. It takes time to grow. There is a cost involvled. It is not always easy. Sometimes you have to hurt the very people you love.
Yes, we are to love one another as we love ourselves, but we are also to protect and serve one another from those that will do them and us harm. We are to do what is RIGHT and JUST no matter what the cost to us.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 12/9/2008 2:29:00 PM >
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 2:26:22 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
So they're terrorists before they're tried or convicted?
Way to go.
These people were captured in a war zone. If I am not mistaken civilians working in any capacity for the enemy in a war zone have customarily been subject to immeduiate execution.
Would that be better for your delicate sensabilities?
It is unfortuneate that these people have put themselves in a legal grey area. They are not civilians, and they are not commonly seen as belonging to a traditional military organization. They have to be identified in some way until their status and crime has been determined, thus we call them POWs, and/ or terrorists, which as close to accurately describing their status that currently exists. Being labeled as such affords them certain recognized rights that not being labeled as such would not necessarily afford them.
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 3:05:07 PM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
We are to do what is RIGHT and JUST no matter what the cost to us.
I actually think you finally are...
After this little inauguration thingie.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/9/2008 8:00:20 PM
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tacitus
Posts: 396
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
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There is a more practical reason for not torturing (and yes, they did torture people in Abu Garaib -- at least one person died because of it).
One of the American interrogators in Iraq has just published a book on the subject, and he cites numerous examples where torture failed or delayed the obtaining of critical information, but when they used non-violent techniques, including befriending and joking with their captives, they would get results.
One example was an imam they caught in the act of blessing suicide bombers. When they brought him in to interrogate him, the first thing the imam told him was that he would cut his (the interrogators) throat if he had a knife on him. So I'm sure the temptation was to rough him up a bit and smack the defiance out of him, but that's not what they did.
The first thing the interrogators did was -- get this -- apologize for some of the mistakes that America had made at the start of the war. Shocking right? That was the last thing the imam deserved to hear. But the goal was not to exact revenge or punish the imam, the goal was to save lives, American and innocent Iraqi lives. So they, in effect, befriended the man and within the a couple of days he had given up a list of safe houses used by the people organizing the suicide bombings.
The point is, that all this talk about "we shouldn't feel sorry for the terrorists" is missing the point. It's been proven time and again that unless you're in some fantasy Jack Bauer-type world, torture is counterproductive. Skilled interrogators can get more accurate information and faster using the vast array of psychological tricks including kindness and humor. Saving lives is what's important. Not retribution. That can come later, when there's time.
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/10/2008 12:09:29 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 148
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
There is a more practical reason for not torturing
One of the American interrogators in Iraq has just published a book on the subject, and he cites numerous examples where torture failed or delayed the obtaining of critical information, but when they used non-violent techniques, including befriending and joking with their captives, they would get results.
He also made the point that many insurgents were in Iraq killing American soldiers because of the torture undertaken at Abu Graib and at Gitmo.
He estimates that more American lives have been lost to these torture inspired insurgents than all the lives on 9/11.
I've made a link to the article earlier in the thread - but here it is again.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html
The name of the book is "How to Break a Terrorist: The U.S. Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq" and the former interrogator is writing under the name Matthew Alexander.
_____________________________
"I deplore what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Retaking the Moral High Ground - 12/10/2008 12:42:25 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 441
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
God brought the great flood to destroy the evil, then he regretted and said “ I will never do that again” . Instate of destroying the evil God sent His only son, the Son who had all the power to destroy all the evil of the world, he gave his life so that may remove the evil from the world.
Christians who thinks that we can overcome evil by waging war and fight according to flesh never understand what is true evil. The armor of God ;
Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Abu grab was not torture? Scripture says “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” I will let you interpret the verse!
It doesn’t matter if they are American or not. Are they human? If so threat them like one. They may not treat us like human, but are we not better then them. What does scripture says about treating you enemy? Or when it comes to save our own skin, we don’t need to follow scripture!
So are you advocating a theocracy for the U.S.?, holding the government to biblical expectations? Leon's right, you don't understand this passage.
quote:
schtumpy
He also made the point that many insurgents were in Iraq killing American soldiers because of the torture undertaken at Abu Graib and at Gitmo. He estimates that more American lives have been lost to these torture inspired insurgents than all the lives on 9/11.
In that case I would say that he and those who have exploited the Abu Graib issue for political purposes and called abuses by a few soldiers torture, thus condemning the whole U.S. government, have the blood of those American lives on THEIR hands.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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