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Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 6:33:58 PM
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DerWeg
Posts: 50
Joined: 11/5/2008
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Free will has always made more sense to me, but apparently most Protestants reject it (based on what I've been told). Here's what I don't really understand. If God only chooses certain people to be saved, what's the point in trying to accept Christ at all? Isn't that kind of pointless? Why even preach the gospel, for that matter? It wouldn't matter if we even tried to accept and follow Christ: our attempts will be in vain, we'll never fully accept or follow him (even if we think we are), and we're still going to hell because God hasn't picked us. That just sounds kind of evil to me. Like all our attempts to love and obey God are laughed off by God himself. If God already picked who's to be saved and who is not, then why don't we just let him do the picking and live our lives however we want? And why wouldn't God want everyone to be able to receive the gift of accepting Christ and having their lives completely turned around? Why even CREATE the people who are going to hell? Why not just skip the earth part and send them straight to hell? Or why even hell? Why just refrain from conceiving them period? Does God just want a hell...for the 'hell' of it?
Maybe I'm not understanding predestination. But it seems as though it would imply that all people who go to hell are in hell because God purposefully designed them to be there.
The whole thing just seems very illogical and rather nihilistic to me.
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 6:46:59 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2082
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For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. . . Romans 8:29
This is predestination. It is to be conformed to the image of Jesus. YEAH!
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim 2:3-4
This is the truth. Believe it! And be blessed.
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 6:50:52 PM
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DerWeg
Posts: 50
Joined: 11/5/2008
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quote:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim 2:3-4
Wait but if he wants us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, why would he not pick us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth?
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 7:51:47 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
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I think the first concept you need to understand is His sovereignty. He is in control of everything, not us. He has gone to great lengths to create us, and has chosen only a few of us. He works the circumstances of our lives to bring us to Him. But He only chooses those who are willing to choose Him, and He only chooses those who are willing to be molded by Him. There are those who are not willing to choose him because they do not want to be molded by Him. It is their choice. He gives everyone the same opportunity, but knows beforehand who will choose Him, and who will not. Those others have the same opportunity that we do, but they refuse.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 8:00:31 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2082
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
quote:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim 2:3-4
Wait but if he wants us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, why would he not pick us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth?
Where does it say He does not pick us all? This verse clearly says He desires ALL men to be saved. (I Tim 2:4)
And II Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
Who is being left out here?
Listen to what He says and believe Him!
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 8:04:56 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
quote:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim 2:3-4
Wait but if he wants us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, why would he not pick us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth?
Let me see if I can explain this. I will tell you that the answer has a lot to do with the concept of the harvest. We are all like plants who are supposed to produce fruit. Some will produce good fruit, some will produce bad fruit. Go throught the bible, especially the gospels, and read Jesus parables that deal with harvests to get the whole concept. In Revelations, there is a reference to Christ coming back and harvesting the wicked. He trounces them in the vat; please understand that I am writing all of this without my bible, so I cannot just pull up the verses. It is around chapter 14 in Revelations.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/5/2008 8:40:31 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1803
Joined: 1/17/2008
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God created us and invites us to love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. This invitation is open to all of us - without exception.
To go to God we need to accept His existance, to believe that Jesus is His only Son who died for us and was raised from the dead, and to repent from our sins.
This is a free choice for us to make. Some choose to accept Jesus and some do not. Hence - Free Will.
God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge, knows our decision before we make it.
It's like you being in a helicopter and seeing two cars speeding towards an inter-section. You know they'll collide with each other - but do nothing to stop it or interfere in any way.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/6/2008 7:53:28 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 821
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
Maybe I'm not understanding predestination.
Maybe you're not God. For reasons of His own, He makes some His own. We who are redeemed are astonished (amazed) at His grace. Since He did the saving, He does the keeping.
However, since we are not God, it is not our place to prejudge the salvation of others. We seek out His "hidden elect." We share the gospel, in the glad confidence that this is our duty, our command, our privilege, a subset of the genre "praise." He does the saving. We don't do the high-pressure elbow-twisting hard-sell, we let God's Spirit work in the lives of others.
The guy who invented Dungeons and Dragons came to believe in God, as he saw that all of life could be understood as an epic quest assigned to us. God, as the "DM," sees the entire game board from above, from beginning to end. The fun, however, for us, is in the quest, in the progressive unveiling of what's going on.
God is sovereign, but His sovereignty is not rape. He does NOT violate our sense of ourselves, of who we most truly are.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/6/2008 6:04:20 PM
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jn1010lf
Posts: 351
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Hello DerWeg
Hey dude. I got news for you. Got wants everyone to be saved and come to a saving knowledge of Him. Get a concordance and find what I'm saying. You might research the word save or saving or knowledge to find it.
And how about Jesus' great invitation. Didn't He invite all to come to Him?
You need to dump this denominational interpretation of pre destination. It's talking about the act of salvation not people.
So, you are included in God's plan!!
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/6/2008 10:23:13 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 149
Joined: 9/3/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misunderstoodduck
For decades, that one baffled me also, but I have best understood it as explained here.....quote:
mvic
"Some choose to accept Jesus and some do not. Hence - Free Will......God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge, knows our decision before we make it."
With that in mind, the two (free-will & predestination) are not separate, but are synonymous.
My question has now graduated to, "How can we know for an absolute fact that we are going to heaven when we are instructed to live this life sinless & in holiness because "without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14), but are told that we will always fall short on this side, are instructed to consistently pray "forgive us of our trespasses" and every time I listen to a preacher who holds to the Calvanist doctrine, he or she claims I have already sinned that day.   
duck,
It would take several pages to answer all your questions, so I'll just touch on a couple of them.
Don't panic when you read Hebrews 12:14. Instead, go back to Hebrews 10:10, "... we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." This tells us how the requirement demanded in 12:14 has already been met.
I'm not a Calvinist, but I would tell you that if you can't think of a sin you committed today, think harder! Our right standing before God doesn't depend on our sinlessness. It depends on Christ's sinlessness. Read Romans 4, e.g. verse 5, "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness," and chapter 5, e.g. verse 1, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God..."
The faith which justifies us also sanctifies us, which is why we need to confess the sins that we still commit even after we have been justified. Sanctfication is a journey. Failure to achieve perfect sanctification in this life does not nullify our justification.
I won't try to explain predestination. I like how Martin Luther dealt with this issue. He said that we should regard it as a divine mystery, because God has not fully explained it to us. Instead of trying to figure out how it works, we should just content ourselves with this: If I am saved, I can take no credit for my salvation. It is entirely by the grace of God. If I am lost, I cannot in any way blame God. It is entirely my own fault.
(By the way, Luther's view on predestination was neither Calvinist nor Arminian. He did not agree with Calvin that some are predestined to damnation. He did not agree with the Arminian view that our salvation requires us to "make a decision for Christ." His interpretation was that the Holy Spirit creates faith in us through the means of hearing the gospel, but we can reject this work of the Spirit. If you adhere to this view, then predestination cannot be equated with foreknowledge, i.e. God's looking ahead in time and knowing what decision we are going to make before we make it.)
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/7/2008 1:54:26 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
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quote:
Wait but if he wants us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, why would he not pick us all to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth?
Because God has laid down two condtions for salvation: (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). If you refuse to repent and refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved, no matter how greatly God desires your salvation. Salvation means believing that Jesus is both Lord of your life and Savior of your soul. He cannot be Lord unless we forsake our sins and idols.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/7/2008 7:37:06 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
Free will has always made more sense to me, but apparently most Protestants reject it (based on what I've been told). Here's what I don't really understand. If God only chooses certain people to be saved, what's the point in trying to accept Christ at all? Isn't that kind of pointless? Why even preach the gospel, for that matter? It wouldn't matter if we even tried to accept and follow Christ: our attempts will be in vain, we'll never fully accept or follow him (even if we think we are), and we're still going to hell because God hasn't picked us. That just sounds kind of evil to me. Like all our attempts to love and obey God are laughed off by God himself. If God already picked who's to be saved and who is not, then why don't we just let him do the picking and live our lives however we want? And why wouldn't God want everyone to be able to receive the gift of accepting Christ and having their lives completely turned around? Why even CREATE the people who are going to hell? Why not just skip the earth part and send them straight to hell? Or why even hell? Why just refrain from conceiving them period? Does God just want a hell...for the 'hell' of it?
Maybe I'm not understanding predestination. But it seems as though it would imply that all people who go to hell are in hell because God purposefully designed them to be there.
The whole thing just seems very illogical and rather nihilistic to me.
Good luck in your journey to Truth.
I've been dealing with this for almost 3 years and learned alot along the way.
BTW, there are Protestants and Reformed - not always the same, for example,
although the Baptist church has its roots in Calvinism, most of the theology
today is free will in nature. The SBC has taken a decidely Calvinistic turn
with Al Mohler, Nettles, etal at the SBC Seminary.
Here's the way I see it, DW:
You must decide whether God would hold someone responsible for what they cannot do.
I admit this is a loaded statement, but this is pivotal.
You also must decide whether "double predestination" is true (chosen for heaven/chosen for hell).
And you must figure out how, if God determines "everything that comes to pass",
he does not determine your sin, thereby assaulting his character.
Last but not least, you must study ALOT. I would start with election and a very good
book called "Perspectives on Election: Five Views".
Also Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" is a good reformed theology book easy to read.
My presupps are (were?) free will based, so I started out studying reformed theology.
You need to understand their views before you can dispute them.
Its not all bad - Perseverance of the Saints is a much misunderstood but needed doctrine, IMHO.
God bless.
My conclusion so far: Free will is true. So is predestination.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Predestination- a little confused. - 11/13/2008 9:41:55 AM
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Kath
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