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Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 1:33:30 PM
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raysnchrist
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Anyone care to create an open dialogue regarding the many different doctrines regarding the rapture?
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 2:38:16 PM
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bob97
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Such as...what do you have in mind ray? There are many discussions on the rapture in process already.
So is your objective to discuss pre wrath as opposed to other doctrines, with pre wrath being the main theme? From the title of the OP I would guess that is your objective.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 3:47:50 PM
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raysnchrist
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Your insight is greatly regarded.
I would definitely like to pursue that subject of the Pre-Wrath vs. the 'other' Rapture doctrines.
Lord Bless
Keep sight for the Son
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 4:54:51 PM
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bob97
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Well brother it seem one of the first things that you should do is lay out your concept of prewrath because I'm sure that many of those hanging around here do not understand what you mean for sure.
1: What does prewrath mean?
2: When does this prewrath gathering occur?
3: What events precede the prewrath gathering?
Hang on to you hat because the pretrib group will have a lot to say and to put it mildly...how wrong you are. 
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 5:17:44 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
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Pre-Trib Rapture: To me makes more sense, as that would remove the Church/Bride/Prophetic/Studious/Faithful Christians out of the mortal mix, that the system of the Beast has no hindrance for his meteoric rise to power, and formation of One World Government. This is perfect to relax and enjoy a Seven Day/Year Marriage Feast/Honeymoon, before mounting up and returning with Messiah, to watch Him shut the Age down, lock the Satan away, judge to guilty mortals, and start setting up the Millennial Reign. This logic is in addition to the need for seven years for the Tribulation, and for the clean-up of all the weapons of war from the Magog failed attack, and other sundry considerations like not being 'Tested.' 
Mid-Trib: Seems to cover most Biblical obligations and considerations, except for the problems generated by the Faithful believers who would create many roadblocks for the meteoric part of Beastly things being accomplished in quick order, and wouldn't fit into my opinion, worth a hoot.
Pre Wrath: is so fraught with negative aspects, my mind rejects the total consideration for any logicality. We would not even have time to learn how to ride white horses. Therefore, I will wait to see the logic as to why, and how Pre Wrath would even work to God's Glory.
In conclusion, Pre-Trib makes a lot of mortal sense. Mid-Trib makes some mortal sense. Pre-Wrath, makes no sense. And, if anyone hasn't figured it out yet, I have already watched the date I thought the Rapture was going to happen, pass by without a single ounce of lost weight from my waist-line, and cannot figure out why, but keep looking, and until I find something, I am going to keep a 'light' opinion. At least something almost flew, my opinion that is. 
In Messiah, His Blessing, and Soon Coming, I still Hope. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 5:17:49 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Bob.
Hey, Bob, I have a question for you. Do you make a difference between "pre-Wrath" and midtrib? You may have said it before, but my old brain just can't recall.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 5:37:47 PM
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bob97
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Hi Roy...yes I do. I see pre-wrath as where the gathering occurs either Tishri 1, 370 days prior to the end or on Tishri 1, 10 days prior to the end, where the end occurs on Yom Kippur.
I've always thought it was 370 days prior but I'm not so sure right now.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/21/2009 6:06:33 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 798
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From: Florida
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Shalom, Arley.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Pre-Trib Rapture: To me makes more sense, as that would remove the Church/Bride/Prophetic/Studious/Faithful Christians out of the mortal mix, that the system of the Beast has no hindrance for his meteoric rise to power, and formation of One World Government. This is perfect to relax and enjoy a Seven Day/Year Marriage Feast/Honeymoon, before mounting up and returning with Messiah, to watch Him shut the Age down, lock the Satan away, judge to guilty mortals, and start setting up the Millennial Reign. This logic is in addition to the need for seven years for the Tribulation, and for the clean-up of all the weapons of war from the Magog failed attack, and other sundry considerations like not being 'Tested.'
Mid-Trib: Seems to cover most Biblical obligations and considerations, except for the problems generated by the Faithful believers who would create many roadblocks for the meteoric part of Beastly things being accomplished in quick order, and wouldn't fit into my opinion, worth a hoot.
Pre Wrath: is so fraught with negative aspects, my mind rejects the total consideration for any logicality. We would not even have time to learn how to ride white horses. Therefore, I will wait to see the logic as to why, and how Pre Wrath would even work to God's Glory.
In conclusion, Pre-Trib makes a lot of mortal sense. Mid-Trib makes some mortal sense. Pre-Wrath, makes no sense. And, if anyone hasn't figured it out yet, I have already watched the date I thought the Rapture was going to happen, pass by without a single ounce of lost weight from my waist-line, and cannot figure out why, but keep looking, and until I find something, I am going to keep a 'light' opinion. At least something almost flew, my opinion that is.
In Messiah, His Blessing, and Soon Coming, I still Hope. Arley
LOL! You must have been posting at the same time I was posting to Bob!
I believe Bob has said that he accepts Pre-Wrath; so, I'm waiting for his input...
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/22/2009 10:40:54 PM
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Matthew-59
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Greetings all,
Oh this is going to be fun to watch and learn here. I've not heard about a pre-wrath rapture view in quite some time. Mid trib, yes, but not pre-wrath. To be sure, I'm a pre-trib rapture theorist all the way and will continue to be since I too believe it makes the most sense biblically. However, the reoccurring thought that rattles through my mind from time to time is perhaps there could be more than one more rapture to occur. Why not?? Who says there is only going to be one more? Is that notion in the bible somewhere? If so, I haven't seen it. According to my calculations, there have already been at least 3, but have found nowhere that says only one more to come. If there is more than just one to come, which one... mid trib or pre-wrath? I absolutely do not believe that a post trib rapture will occur, so will leave it out of the mix.
I like bob97's idea that perhaps a clear definition is in order first. Would someone like to clearly explain the difference between the different views? ...including those 3 questions bob97 posed as well.
And no, bob97... I will not tell anyone "how wrong they are" simply because I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. That was an unfair assumption. If you take a look to the left, under my forum moniker, you'll not see that "Civility Project" title, but have no fear... I do hold to the tenets of good Christian civility. I am not here to argue, but to learn. Thought I'd clear that up.
_____________________________
 Matthew 
5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God."
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/23/2009 12:25:53 AM
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bob97
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Blessing to then Matthew...you are a breath of fresh air. We should all be mature enough to discuss and listen without being condemning of the other view.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/23/2009 8:29:14 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 152
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Matthew-59
Greetings all,
Oh this is going to be fun to watch and learn here. I've not heard about a pre-wrath rapture view in quite some time. Mid trib, yes, but not pre-wrath. To be sure, I'm a pre-trib rapture theorist all the way and will continue to be since I too believe it makes the most sense biblically. However, the reoccurring thought that rattles through my mind from time to time is perhaps there could be more than one more rapture to occur. Why not?? Who says there is only going to be one more? Is that notion in the bible somewhere? If so, I haven't seen it. According to my calculations, there have already been at least 3, but have found nowhere that says only one more to come. If there is more than just one to come, which one... mid trib or pre-wrath? I absolutely do not believe that a post trib rapture will occur, so will leave it out of the mix.
I like bob97's idea that perhaps a clear definition is in order first. Would someone like to clearly explain the difference between the different views? ...including those 3 questions bob97 posed as well.
And no, bob97... I will not tell anyone "how wrong they are" simply because I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. That was an unfair assumption. If you take a look to the left, under my forum moniker, you'll not see that "Civility Project" title, but have no fear... I do hold to the tenets of good Christian civility. I am not here to argue, but to learn. Thought I'd clear that up.
Several raptures? I would call that the Partial Rapture view. Watchman Nee believed that way.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/24/2009 10:34:34 AM
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Uriah
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The pre-wrath view has all the same problems as pre-trib and mid-trib. It just pushes the rapture back further.
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Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/26/2009 11:54:34 AM
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raysnchrist
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The entire 70th week of Daniel is never refered to as the tribulation period.
Jesus in Mathew 24 describes the 70th week in detail.
1st Begining of sorrows/birth pangs. (first 3.5 years)
2nd Abomination of Desolation (Midweek)
3rd The great tribulation (First half of the last 3.5 years)
4th The wrath of God/great and terrible day of the lord. (Last half of 3.5 years)
Pre-wrath suggests that the rapture will take place before the wrath of God judgements, that is, the opening of the seventh seal unveiling the trumpets and bowl judgements which is Gods wrath upon the wicked.
Pre-trib must have the day of the Lord occur before the 70th week in order to fit with Christ's description of the 70th week. However, it does not fit that Christ could return to the earth before the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:1-11, Mathew 24:29-31)
There is no biblical evidence for a second return of Christ before the Day of the Lord. Not only that, there is absolutely no biblical evidence for a secret coming of the Lord, or a third coming of the Lord or a second or third rapture.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/26/2009 1:20:36 PM
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raysnchrist
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I am a little confused, MATTHEW. You mentioned that you believe in a "total pre-trib rapture-all christians go"
Yet you mentioned later that some will get saved or either get raptured in a mid or pre-wrath rapture.
This means that the Church all christians at pre-trib is not the church at mid and pre-wrath.
The great tribulation is mentioned by Christ right before the DAY of the LORD. So, the rapture can only take place right before the WRATH of GOD.
< Message edited by raysnchrist -- 10/26/2009 1:27:33 PM >
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/26/2009 4:37:20 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raysnchrist
The entire 70th week of Daniel is never refered to as the tribulation period.
Jesus in Mathew 24 describes the 70th week in detail.
1st Begining of sorrows/birth pangs. (first 3.5 years)
2nd Abomination of Desolation (Midweek)
3rd The great tribulation (First half of the last 3.5 years)
4th The wrath of God/great and terrible day of the lord. (Last half of 3.5 years)
Pre-wrath suggests that the rapture will take place before the wrath of God judgements, that is, the opening of the seventh seal unveiling the trumpets and bowl judgements which is Gods wrath upon the wicked.
Pre-trib must have the day of the Lord occur before the 70th week in order to fit with Christ's description of the 70th week. However, it does not fit that Christ could return to the earth before the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:1-11, Mathew 24:29-31)
There is no biblical evidence for a second return of Christ before the Day of the Lord. Not only that, there is absolutely no biblical evidence for a secret coming of the Lord, or a third coming of the Lord or a second or third rapture.
Greetings
quote:
Pre-wrath suggests that the rapture will take place before the wrath of God judgements
When is the first woe?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/27/2009 5:50:27 PM
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Matthew-59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raysnchrist
I am a little confused, MATTHEW. You mentioned that you believe in a "total pre-trib rapture-all christians go"
First of all, when one types in all caps it seems as if one is yelling. No need to yell at me as far as I can see. I said nothing to offend. I simply stated my beliefs and then offered a thought. Nothing wrong with that is there?
quote:
Yet you mentioned later that some will get saved or either get raptured in a mid or pre-wrath rapture.
Yes, this was the thought I mentioned earlier as a possibility... something to consider. In no way did I dogmatically state that this will happen. As I said earlier I believe in a pre-trib rapture, but wonder if there "could" be yet another rapture after that which could include either a mid or pre-wrath rapture. As of now I do not believe that, but have considered it's possibility. I've seen no biblical evidence for it... as I said earlier as well.
quote:
This means that the Church all christians at pre-trib is not the church at mid and pre-wrath.
No. The church is the church no matter the time frame. At the pre-trib rapture all Christians who are either alive or dead at that time will go. Those who get saved after the pre-trib rapture are the ones who could "possibly" go up in a rapture... be it mid or pre-wrath. As I said before, I don't presently believe this, but do keep it under consideration of study for now.
quote:
The great tribulation is mentioned by Christ right before the DAY of the LORD. So, the rapture can only take place right before the WRATH of GOD.
Where's the time frame for that view suggested in scripture? I think first we need to identify just exactly what is "The Day of The Lord". I personally believe it refers to the "second coming of Christ" (not the rapture) when He comes to earth to set up His kingdom of rulership here. By-the-way, the rapture is not the second coming of Christ. Christ at His first coming set foot on earth and will do the same at His second coming. At the time of the rapture He will not set foot on the Mount of Olives, but only descend on a cloud to call up His bride to be with Him in Heaven. (Read 1 Thess. 4:16-18.)
So.... Now that we got all of that cleared up, perhaps we can get on with the OP topic of a pre-wrath rapture. Or did I misunderstand the intent of the OP? I guess I thought we were looking for biblical evidence for a pre-wrath rapture at all.
I should perhaps state more precisely my intention for stopping by this thread. It is not to push a pre-trib rapture view (I will not engage in debate about that). It is to see how anyone believes in a pre-wrath rapture. Like I've said, I see no biblical evidence or proof for this viewpoint. If anyone has any to offer, please do. I look forward to the educational experience. Most likely I will not post here again, but just read what others have to say about a "pre-wrath" rapture and then add it to my study.
_____________________________
Matthew
5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God."
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/27/2009 6:11:54 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
Joined: 11/29/2008
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I not only believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I also believe there is a possible Mid-Trib 'Second' Rapture. Beyond those two things, I feel there is a good possibility that the 'Seals' are opened, in the 'prelude' years prior to the Tribulation Seven (at least most of them (1-6)).
I agree with Matthew59, with only very very minor deviation, to account for my being weird.
In Messiah. Keep the Watch, our redemption draws nigh. Yeee-Haaa!! Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/28/2009 11:59:36 PM
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B1inhim
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Pre-Tribulation Rapture
This subject get a lot of posts on almost every Christian site online that we can go to…
J.N. Darby (1800-1881)
Morgan Edwards (1722-1795)
And I am sure that some might even find it being taught earlier than these…
Back then, unlike today, there were no major interstates, cars in every driveway or airlines to be considered… thus the following could not have been included…
IF the Pre-Tribulation Rapture were to happen as it is being taught, there would be hundreds of thousands if not millions of people being killed and maimed by the direct results of this teaching-taking place.
The unmanned and pilot less aircraft and vehicles would careen out of control into buildings, shopping centers, schools and occupied habitats, killing and maiming unsuspecting individuals.
This would hold GOD Almighty as being directly responsible for the devastation that would ensue such a thing.
1 Cor. 13:13
And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Abides; meno, men'-o; a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) :- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), × thine own.
Faith; pistis, pis'-tis; from Greek 3982 (peitho); persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstract constancy in such profession; by extensive the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself :- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Hope; elpis, el-pece'; from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence :- faith, hope.
Love; agape, ag-ah'-pay; from Greek 25 (agapao); love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast :- (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
By this happening this way, Faith would clearly be removed from the table for others to have by seeing this happen according to this doctrine. YES it will be seen…
Hope would also be removed as well for the same reasons and even more so.
And who would want to love a GOD who would cause the untimely death of the people who died at the hands of unmanned and unpiloted vehicles and aircraft initiated by an act of GOD that has been awaited for by Christianity for centuries
We have faith in believing that this salvation is based on the Word of GOD and this coupled with hope makes it all the more desired.
However, the picture of removing every blood bought and paid for child of GOD in this particular way is actually an act of terror…
That is not God’s Way
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/29/2009 10:02:23 PM
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Uriah
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(navyblue)-"I not only believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I also believe there is a possible Mid-Trib 'Second' Rapture."
WOW!
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/30/2009 3:01:24 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
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From: S/W Nebraska
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B1inhim, Shalom, in the Name of Yaushuah HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah).
I notice that you bring to consideration the fact that people might die when the Rapture takes place, and seem to condemn the fact that a sweet old God wouldn't allow sinners to die, after all the good Christians were Snatched away, and are the only persons in the plane, train, or what-ever, with the expertise to continue to control the vehicle. Hmmm. Before this, I had not realized how gifted we Christians are. Thank you for the reminder.
However, and with much sadness, I feel the only thing wrong with your synopsis is that: Yep, God does not respect the lives of those who would not be Raptured with us. Sorry, yet not sorry. Please stop judging God with mortal mindset. I had to learn how not to, as must you.
God has tolerated mankind's stupidity far longer than any mortal would/could be capable of. Any one of us, you, myself, or any other, would have snuffed mankind, without qualm, hundreds of years ago, so that by what we call year 2009, only the perfect people would survive, which would amount to the number zero. God reigns, and rules, to His Glory, and that is that.
IMO, we are so close to finding out just how little the mortal existence of man meant to God, when He does release us to our stupidity of Nuclear destruction, and inhumanity in the extreme, we won't have time to worry about God's shortcomings, as we dodge bullet's, and seek His protection.
We must witness to the non-believer, and keep the Watch for His soon return. Our redemption does draw nigh.
In Messiah, His Blessing, and our watchfulness. Arley
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 10/31/2009 3:06:42 PM >
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 1:11:23 AM
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B1inhim
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Just how many times does Lord Jesus come back to the planet earth?
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Well He says that the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven…
Interesting…
Is this the same thing that Apostle Paul spoke of?
1 Thes. 4:16 (KJV)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
LOOKS like it…
What about the time in Revelation when He comes on a white horse?
Zech. 14:1-4 (KJV)
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [3] Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
WAIT!!! Is this the “day of the Lord” as written by an Old Testament Prophet?
What day is this talking about? A day is comprised of 24 hours correct? Lets see about that.
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Yup… this is where the 1,000 years plays a part in the whole scene that we see in Revelation… Rev. 20:2-7 (KJV)
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
AND what happened chronologically just before this?
Rev. 19:11-21 (KJV)
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant was slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This is where this goes “Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
In the sky among the clouds one time and dressed to kill in the second coming when He actually touches this planet again… Harpazo is not the same thing as resurrection, but just as good.
No wonder we have been at such odds concerning this…WOW!
Unless one takes the time to look into the reality of what GOD is saying all sorts of assumptions and man made theories get developed to explain the complicated ways of GOD.
When all it really takes is childlike faith in seeing what GOD said in sequence…
The “rapture” or “harpazo” which ever you want to call it is not the same thing as the second coming…
One takes place in the sky… that is not a valid return…
One takes place @ the Mount of Olives…now THAT is a valid return or if you please a “second coming”
So the answer to the first question;
“Just how many times does Lord Jesus come back to the planet earth?”
One time…
The other time He shows up. Even He said “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven”
Can’t forget… what happens before this sign takes place?
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
And where else can we see this being spoken of?
Rev. 6:12-14 (KJV)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
AND what happens after this?
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And sequentially moving right along… Rev. 7:9-17 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, [12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. [16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
After what? After the sealing of the end time servants of GOD, the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.
Notice what Apostle John is saying in the first verse of chapter 7 of Revelation…
Rev. 7:1 (KJV)
And after these things…
What things?
What exactly happens DIRECTLY before this?
Rev. 6:12-14 (KJV)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Connect the dots… not some mystery that only men of great understanding have…
Thus the gift is not only validated but a heralding of what to expect when the 6th seal is opened up…
That evening as I was in the twilight of sleep, the five-story building that I was in began to shake and rock back and forth 5 to 10 feet at a time.
Now according to our Bible and what the LORD says, "When you see these things coming upon you, stand up and lift your heads towards heaven. For your redemption is near." (Jesus, Luke 21:28.)
So I did Jesus' earthquake protocol and stood up, lifted my head towards heaven and began to praise GOD with every fiber that was within me. People around me were running and ducking under furniture and what have you, but we were on the fourth floor and it was crumbling down on top of us.
AT the EXACT time that the building began to "smush" me I was transformed in the twinkling of an eye and was in a BRAND NEW MANSION type of body, standing right where I had been (the same place) but only now where the floor had once been there was a six foot or so semitransparent hand of an Angel the bore me up lest I dashed my foot against a stone...
It was magnificent. I was standing in mid air about thirty-to-forty feet off the ground on this hand. The view was pristine and crystal clear. I could see clear across the valley and I saw others who were as was I, transformed, changed, standing on hands... NOT MANY though. We were few and far in-between. Suddenly I heard a SHOUT, it was the MOST melodious sound that I have ever heard in all my life, it was as of the Trump of an archangel. I looked up into the sky and saw Jesus standing among the clouds with His arms open wide.
Then I looked out across the valley and saw those of us who had died and were in their graves rise up first and then those of us who were alive and remained were caught up together and the vision ended.
This vision was given to give to you.
It is a gift.
There are more than just a few verses that have been incorporated in this event. In context we have Psalms 91:12 happening as well as I Cor 15, I was practicing Luke 21:28. And then we have John 14:2 being literally fulfilled also.
1 Thes. 4:15-18 (KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them, which are asleep. [16] For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Any of this sounds at all familiar to any of you?
Never in the history of mankind since the ascension of Lord Jesus have ALL of the first 4 seals are evidenced as being opened and are happening simultaneously all day, every day, as they are right now.
We do not see the 5th seal being evidenced because it takes place in heaven.
The NEXT event to take place in the prophetic calendar is the opening of the 6th seal and then WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!
The “peace and safety”, “sudden destruction” prophecy happens here also…it is all part of the dots
Till then we need to go tell others that there is still room at Fathers Table and that they can get in for free... well sorta. Thay have to believe that Jesus is the Son of the Most High and that GOD raise Jesus from the dead...they need to become a Christian all the way
One day the tide did not wash all the starfish back into the ocean.
Miles and miles of starfish were on the beach.
All the while there was a small boy throwing the starfish back into the ocean one at a time.
Because he knew that once the sun began to shine down on top of the starfish, they would die.
A man who was jogging on the beach stopped to watch the small boy throw the starfish back into the ocean.
Finally he said to the boy; “Hey there little boy. There are thousands of these on the beach.
Do you really think that what you are doing is going to make any difference at all?”
The little boy briefly looked up with tears in his eyes at the man on the beach and said;
“ I don’t know mister, but it will make a difference to this one.”
And he turned and tossed the starfish that he held in his hand, back into the ocean
Many of us are the ONLY one who knows someone like this.
Someone who needs to be redirected out of certain destruction.
Do you know of any starfish that need to be helped out?
Think about it.
GLORY TO GOD!!!
May all that we do, say and think, honor, glorify and please Father GOD in heaven, 24/7.
In Lord Jesus name,
So Be It
“Jesus Christ is LORD”
Philippians 2:11
Love,
Brother Jerry
< Message edited by B1inhim -- 10/31/2009 1:44:55 AM >
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 10/31/2009 1:13:36 AM
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B1inhim
Posts: 10
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
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Ready to eat?
Here is what we have for information…
Lord Jesus speaking; “Matthew 24:4-7 (KJV)
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. [5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
The above statement is defined in the first 4 seals in Revelation 6.
Seals 1-4 are clearly indicated as being opened, today, right now…
Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV)
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The days are short even now due to the world that we live in…IE; back in the days before the advent of our modern technology the days seemed to last forever… 50’ and 70 and the first part of the 70’. Today our day is so short that we have barely enough time to do anything…
This Great Tribulation is with us right now, no matter how many people are not seeing this, it is happening. Millions if not Billions of people worldwide are out of a job. The monies that this planet uses for exchange is almost worthless. Millions of people in the USA are having their homes foreclosed on due to lack of a job, no savings left, no income at all…
Moving right along…
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:32-36 (KJV)
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: [33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. [34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days”
“Those days”… what days? The days that we see happening before us all day, every day, right now.
Is the “harpazo” of 1 Thes. 4:15-18 the same thing as what we see that Lord Jesus said?
And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them that are asleep. [16] For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Can we find this in Revelation? NOT COMPLTELY as it is in the above verses, but pieced together it reads the same…
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
Then what?
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
OR
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
SO, where can we find this happening in Revelation?
What part of this is in Revelation?
Chapter 6 verse 12
Rev. 6:12-14 (KJV)
And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
This is a clear description of a nuclear holocaust taking place as described by someone who has never seen nor heard of such a thing.
ACCORDING TO Lord Jesus, Apostle Paul and the gift given to this servant, the “harpazo/rapture” takes place right here… AND it is evidenced by the multitude of people’s, kindred’s tongues and nation’s right there in Revelation chapter 7; Rev. 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
AND what are these multitudes, which no man can number doing?
Rev. 7:15-17 (KJV)
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. [16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sunlight on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
These days are full of wickedness and the “old leaven” teachings that have been developing since the dark ages have had plenty of time to grow into wonderful looking loaves of contaminated bread. People who are under the belief that they are Christians, they most likely are not, are the ones who have been eating the contaminated bread. They have a psuedo understanding to the realities of Christianity. They do not believe in the gifts of GOD being in operation for today.
They believe that the Word of GOD was embellished in Mark 16:9-20 IE; not written by Mark, therefore not the Word of GOD.
They believe that those who speak in other tongues are of the devil.
This one really gets me too… TWO people, one will be taken one will be left… Matthew 25:1-13 (KJV)
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the Bridegroom. [2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. [3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. [5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. [6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. [7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. [8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. [9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. [10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. [11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. [12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. [13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
One taken to go eat with the Bridegroom… according to Jesus 50% of all who think they are going are foolish in what they are doing while they are waiting for Him to return…
This is to name just a few things that they believe…
In other words, they claim Lord Jesus as Savior but deny the power thereof.
2 Tim. 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
The souls in Rev 20 are specificitied as people who were martyred…people who were martyred because they would not worship the beast…people who were martyred for not taking the beasts mark… Rev. 20:4 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
IF anyone wants to participate in this event in Revelation 20, you must qualify for the position.
These are the qualifications;” were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands”
The Pre-Tribulational teaching did not happen.
Thank GOD for that.
The next major event scheduled on the prophetic calendar is the opening of the 6th seal…
Matthew 24:34 (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things are fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done.
Luke 21:32 (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all is fulfilled.
This generation, the one that we live in, right now, today, is seeing these long awaited for prophecies take place before our very eyes.
How are you dealing with it?
Denial is not a river in Egypt ;).
Matthew 25:14-37 (KJV)
For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. [15] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
[16] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
[17] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
[18] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. [19] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoned with them. [20] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou delivered unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. [21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him, which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This servant was given one talent and it will not be placed in a hole in the ground and buried for fear of what the masses will say or do.
Many here are believing in things that they have read or heard of over the years and have decided that what they believe is correct…
Many are teaching things that they read about and now believe in it and have come to understand as correct…
Have you seen these things with your own eyes?
Did you participate in it with your own body?
Are you certain of this because you have witnessed it or did you learn it from a teaching from someone else that was bodily in it and personally witnessed it?
Is this something that you read and come to believe?
Is there evidence of what you believe?
Is that evidence in the form of a teaching based on a set of formulas contrived by other men or in the form of a living, breathing literal witness of whom has been there and already done it?
Are you an Apostle?
Are you a Prophet?
Are you an Evangelist?
A Pastor or Teacher?
We are living in the very “end days” of time and soon Lord Jesus will indeed return for His elect. This will take place in the sky according to His word and that of Apostle Paul. The earth will be shaken, the sky will scroll up, the moon and the suns light will be darkened and He will give a shout as of the trump of an Archangel… 1 Thes. 4:16-18 (KJV)
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Ephes. 4:11-16 (KJV)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole Body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Of what single or multi significance would there be to actually know the correct timing of an event that GOD plans on doing, do for us?
He has always informed us of His plans and would not have us to be ignorant of anything that He is going to do.
This servant had never heard of the different teachings that are beings passed around concerning this subject until it was shown and explained…
This is not a salvation issue and no matter how adamant any of us may become in teaching what we have either learned or have seen, salvation is not based on knowing when Lord Jesus will return for His Body.
Let us remember that no matter what, He will do so just like He told us He will…
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