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Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 1:58:00 PM
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LBolt
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'and so death passed upon all...' Whether we like to believe this, death of the physical body is a result of sin.
Also see verse 15, 18 and 19 of Romans 5, where Paul compares Adam and Christ. It clearly tells us that by Adam sin and subsequent juggment was mparted or imputed to all or many.
Romans 3:23 clearly tells us that we all have sinned...
In Hebrews 7:9-10, if Levi could pay tithes while he was yet in Abraham's loins, not even been born, how much more us who were in Adam's loins when he sinned, receive a fallen sinfull nature? We may not have sinned after the same manner but nevertheless we sinned.
Jesus was of the seed of God and as such came in the likeness of man in order to condemn sin in the flesh and satisfy the sin debt. He had to be God in order to take His life back again from the grave. The temptation served to prove His sinlessness.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 3:03:44 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Also see verse 15, 18 and 19 of Romans 5, where Paul compares Adam and Christ. It clearly tells us that by Adam sin and subsequent juggment was mparted or imputed to all or many. There is a major difference between "imputed" and "imparted", LB. If sin is the willful disobedience of God's Will and we are accountable for our own actions, then how can sin be "imputed" to another? The crucial verse is Romans 5:19 which states that we have been "made sinners" (imparted, NOT imputed) through the disobedience of Adam.
quote:
Romans 3:23 clearly tells us that we all have sinned... Yes, but it doesn't specificaly address the issue of original sin as the cause of universal sinning.
quote:
In Hebrews 7:9-10, if Levi could pay tithes while he was yet in Abraham's loins, not even been born, how much more us who were in Adam's loins when he sinned, receive a fallen sinfull nature? We may not have sinned after the same manner but nevertheless we sinned. I fail to see how this passage has anything whatsoever to do with original sin. It is clearly an analogy comparing the blessings of Melchizedek with the blessings of Christ, and not a single mention of sin or the sinful nature.
quote:
The temptation served to prove His sinlessness. No, His resisting the three temptations "proved" His sinlessness, but what does this have to do with Original Sin? Surely you don't think that Jesus "came in the likeness of man" to show that sinful man can resist temptation?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 5:55:09 PM
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patricius79
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I just want to say one obvious thing that I often forget: orginal sin is a mystery, as is the manner of how we contract it, and how it affects our responsibiltiy. There is no way to ever understand it fully, though we can be sure it is true, since the Church has ruled on this true Biblical interpretation by the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/12/2009 6:04:16 PM >
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 9:16:53 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Also see verse 15, 18 and 19 of Romans 5, where Paul compares Adam and Christ. It clearly tells us that by Adam sin and subsequent juggment was mparted or imputed to all or many.
Yes Paul is comparing Adam and Christ in Romans 5. But I think his point is that what Christ did has an effect on all people. How is this possible? Paul uses Adam as an example of how the actions of one person can effect all mankind. His point is not that Adam's sins caused all men to be sinners. His point is that the Atonement of Christ has canceled out the effects of Adam's sin. Even physical death is overcome by eternal life. Therefore there is no such thing as original sin. Instead there is original grace.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 9:28:04 PM
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drmark
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quote:
His point is not that Adam's sins caused all men to be sinners. How much more clear can Romans 5:18-19 be, gd46? The text clearly states that judgement has come to all people through Adam and by Adam's disobedience we are made sinners. I would say that is precisely Paul's point!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 9:29:54 PM
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Crushmaster
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Just a thought.
(Psalms 51:5) - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
God bless,
Crushmaster.
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(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 9:31:29 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
His point is not that Adam's sins caused all men to be sinners. How much more clear can Romans 5:18-19 be, gd46? The text clearly states that judgement has come to all people through Adam and by Adam's disobedience we are made sinners. I would say that is precisely Paul's point!
Certainly Adam's sin had an effect on all mankind, but that's not Paul's point. Paul is talking about what Christ did, not what Adam did. He's merely using what Adam did as an example of the actions of a single person having repercussions upon all mankind.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 9:39:44 PM
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drmark
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Sorry, gd46, but I see no purpose or meaning to the universal Atonement if there is no universal sin!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 10:34:31 PM
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agapist
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Yikes, this is scaring me. You may be right, drmark; you may agree on more things.
Augustine either coined or was the first to use in a comprehensible doctrine the concept of "Original Sin." The Church has held this for sixteen centuries as fundamental (though some disagree).
That particular phrase, as it is with the word "trinity, is not found in Scripture.
Let me just offer this verse and be quiet (I can put my foot in my mouth): "God has committed all men to disobedience, that He may show his mercy on all equally." Romans11:32
It does not cinch the question but it does add fodder.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/12/2009 10:55:35 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
Just a thought.
(Psalms 51:5) - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
God bless,
Crushmaster.
Hyberbole! David had just committed adultery. If you want to take this literal then you need to take other passages literally as well in the Psalms.
Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
I don't know about you but I have never heard a baby right out of its mother's womb who knew how to speak do you?
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RE: Sin - 10/12/2009 11:48:21 PM
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elaussies
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Sorry, but the theology of no original sin is saying Jesus died for no reason. It is offensive. It flies in the face of a feel good theology of there not being a real Hell.
When you read Ephesians, how can you ignore the truth? No more need be said !
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Commentary:
Sin is the death of the soul. A man dead in trespasses and sins has no desire for spiritual pleasures. When we look upon a corpse, it gives an awful feeling. A never-dying spirit is now fled, and has left nothing but the ruins of a man. But if we viewed things aright, we should be far more affected by the thought of a dead soul, a lost, fallen spirit. A state of sin is a state of conformity to this world. Wicked men are slaves to Satan. Satan is the author of that proud, carnal
disposition which there is in ungodly men; he rules in the hearts of men. From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his
mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin,by pardoning and justifying grace. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above this world, by Christ's grace. The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore, encourages others in after-time, to hope in his grace and mercy. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast. These things are not brought to pass by any thing done by us, therefore all boasting is shut out. All is the free gift of God, and the effect of being quickened by his power. It was his purpose, to which he prepared us, by blessing us with the knowledge of his will, and his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, or accuse it of any tendency to evil. All who do so, are without excuse. (Eph 2:11-13)
And:
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Commentary:
The Ephesians called to reflect on their state of heathenism.
Christ and his covenant are the foundation of all the Christian's hopes. A sad and terrible description is here; but who is able to remove himself out of it? Would that this were not a true description of many baptized in the name of Christ. Who can, without trembling, reflect upon the misery of a person, separated for ever from the people of God, cut off from the body of Christ, fallen from the covenant of promise, having no hope, no Saviour, and without any God but a God of vengeance, to all eternity? To have no part in Christ! What true Christian can hear this without horror? Salvation is far from the wicked; but God is a help at hand to his people; and this is by the sufferings and death of Christ. (Eph 2:14-18)
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 12:00:58 AM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
jjbird
Hyberbole! David had just committed adultery. If you want to take this literal then you need to take other passages literally as well in the Psalms.
Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
I don't know about you but I have never heard a baby right out of its mother's womb who knew how to speak do you?
I can see how that verse (Psalm 58:3) is a hyperbole. I do not see how the verse I posted is.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 12:05:53 AM
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Crushmaster
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(1 Corinthians 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
(Romans 5:12-19) - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {13} (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. {15} But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
"{16} And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. {17} For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Original sin is completely backed by Scripture. I would like to see some of those who disagree with this to show some verses/passages to prove that original sin does not exist, and is not backed by Scripture.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 7:52:32 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Sorry, gd46, but I see no purpose or meaning to the universal Atonement if there is no universal sin!
Of course there's universal sin. All I'm saying is that Paul is using the fact that there is universal sin to prove that there's a universal atonement. Paul's main point in Romans 5 is not universal sin -- it's universal atonement.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 8:03:44 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
I would like to see some of those who disagree with this to show some verses/passages to prove that original sin does not exist, and is not backed by Scripture.
Original sin may have existed prior to the resurrection of Christ but the atonement canceled out any and all the effects of any so-called original sin. I'm not saying that. The the Bible says it. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). If all will be made alive in Christ then all are no long dying in Adam. Unless, of course, one thinks that sin overpowers the atonement. I don't.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 8:15:07 AM
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JetJockey4Christ
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To get to a genuine understanding of the subject of original sin / universal sin / a sinful nature from birth, we have to first allow the Bible to define what sin is:
God's Word gives 2 specific definitions & 1 foundational statement of fact:
1. 1 Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. --> Sin = law breaking choices.
2. Rom 14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. --> Sin = no faith - no trust - a broken primary relationship that is supposed to be trusting, faithful.
3. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation...
--> Sin = a state of being across this entire world that every human has fallen in to. We are born with sinful natures that are automatically broken & unfaithful towards God. We then individually make law breaking choices that further compound our guilt.
God bless you each one! I just joined, my first post! Guess I jumped in at the deep end!! <GRIN>
Jet Jockey 4 Christ
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 8:31:26 AM
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PastorSteveMT
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
I would like to see some of those who disagree with this to show some verses/passages to prove that original sin does not exist, and is not backed by Scripture.
Original sin may have existed prior to the resurrection of Christ but the atonement canceled out any and all the effects of any so-called original sin. I'm not saying that. The the Bible says it. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). If all will be made alive in Christ then all are no long dying in Adam. Unless, of course, one thinks that sin overpowers the atonement. I don't.
Sin doesn't overpower atonement, but ONLY for those who are IN CHRIST. Christ died for all, but only those who accept His sacraficial death recieve His forgiveness/atonement.
Christ's death doesn't negate original sin, it just provides mankind with a blessed hope and an opportunity to not be judged of those sins. IF....and that is a very big IF....IF we accept the sacraficial death of Christ in our place.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 9:10:08 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
(1 Corinthians 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
(Romans 5:12-19) - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {13} (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. {15} But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
"{16} And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. {17} For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Original sin is completely backed by Scripture. I would like to see some of those who disagree with this to show some verses/passages to prove that original sin does not exist, and is not backed by Scripture.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
Original Sin is backed by an erroneous interpretation of scripture.
Romans 5:12 is the classic verse supposed to support OS, but it does not at all teach this doctrine.
(1) The verse only says sin entered the world through one man. It does not specify the way that sin came to affect, or was transmitted to, the rest of humanity.
(2) The verse explicitly states that "death came to all men, because all sinned" (see 3:23). No one is to die for any sins but his own! The word "because" (eph ho, Greek = in quo, Latin) was interpreted rather differently by Augustine, who read it as "in whom." The weight of scholarship is against this translation, as is the context of Paul's argument in Romans 5.
(3) Paul's argument (see 5:17), if pursued along classical Augustinian lines, results in the position that, just as all humans sinned in Adam, so all humans are saved in Christ. In other words, the whole world would be redeemed-the 'universalist' position, which advocates of OS rarely accept! Of course, this is inconsistent with all the NT teaching on the subject. (And if one argues that man is only potentially redeemed in Christ, why not argue that man has only potentially -- not actually -- sinned in Adam?) Thus we see that Romans 5:12 has been seriously misinterpreted. The doctrine of OS reads a lot into the passage, and goes against the natural flow of Paul's argument.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 9:59:27 AM
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JetJockey4Christ
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The divine sentence, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20)
So what happens to all human beings? Including even babies?
If everyone, including even babies die -- then according to the divine sentence: Everyone, including all babies are born into sin, guilty, deserving the divine sentence.
Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Job 14:3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
So how is this fair? One cries out! There's no choice here.
It's NOT!!! Get over it already . There's NOTHING SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR ABOUT BEING BORN INTO HOSTILE, ENEMY TERRITORY!!! An enemy has done this! Slaves / captives don't have choices, are not treated fairly!
Thank GOD it is not the end of the story!!!! 
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 10:11:47 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Original sin may have existed prior to the resurrection of Christ but the atonement canceled out any and all the effects of any so-called original sin. I'm not saying that. The the Bible says it. Now you are claiming universal salvation, gd46! If Christ's Atonement automatically "cancels out any and all effects of sin", then all are saved. Do you really not see the fallacy of this position, gd46?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 11:05:02 AM
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JetJockey4Christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Original sin may have existed prior to the resurrection of Christ but the atonement canceled out any and all the effects of any so-called original sin. I'm not saying that. The the Bible says it. Now you are claiming universal salvation, gd46! If Christ's Atonement automatically "cancels out any and all effects of sin", then all are saved. Do you really not see the fallacy of this position, gd46?
And...the Atonement must be individually applied to be effective! The Atonement is chosen one by one of free will. Universalism is yet another lie from the "father of lies".
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 11:46:04 AM
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LBolt
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When we come to Jesus, don't we have to renounce and repent of sin and receive His grace of mercy and sonship in order to be saved? Do you honestly believe we can stand before a holy God and not acknowledge our transgression? If you are not born again and walking in line with the word of God, breaking His commandments are you or are you not sinning?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 2:51:16 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
Christ's death doesn't negate original sin
It's a shame that people actually believe that original sin is more effectual than the atonement of Christ. Paul's whole point in Romans 5 is that the atonement cancels, negates, does away with original sin. To say otherwise is to say the original sin is more powerful than the atonement of Christ.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 3:27:26 PM
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drmark
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quote:
It's a shame that people actually believe that original sin is more effectual than the atonement of Christ. gd46, are you actually reading what you're posting here? Sin is not "effectual" for anything - it is the "default setting"! The Atonement is the effectual means by which any sinner who believes in Christ receives eternal life despite their sins. This is the simple concept called "unlimited Atonement and conditional election". If the Atonement did away with sin, then why do people continue to sin and be lost in hell 1980 years after the Cross? Your reasoning about the "power of original sin" is completely illogical!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 3:30:57 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Original sin may have existed prior to the resurrection of Christ but the atonement canceled out any and all the effects of any so-called original sin.
If there are no longer any effects of the Fall, what is sanctification for?
For the perfection of the imperfect, that what.
quote:
The the Bible says it. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). If all will be made alive in Christ then all are no long dying in Adam. Unless, of course, one thinks that sin overpowers the atonement. I don't. The Bible says no such thing.
The effects are still there, but the penalty is not.
That's what the atonement is for.
We have a treasure in vessels of clay. We still retain our sin nature.
The effects of the Fall will be in us until we are glorified.
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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