|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Medicare unchristian? - 12/1/2008 2:21:59 PM
|
|
|
caddowens
Posts: 1
Joined: 12/1/2008
Status: offline
|
I have been www for any answer to this question...
I have heard mentioned at a time that I could not raise a question and to tell the truth, maybe I did not hear it as I thought...but here goes...
does anyone have reason to believe that using Medicare is not right in God's eyes?
I first heard this "suggested" by the way a particular item was presented in a budget presentation for our pastor's salary/benefits
and then heard it suggested in a prayer.
I am totally in the dark here...
is this possibly confusing government benefits with socialism?
or that we should all take care of each other, and especially family should take care of the older generation and the government should not be involved in it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/1/2008 6:27:02 PM
|
|
|
relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
|
Medicare is THE health coverage for those over age 65. They pay for it, we pay for it, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. And even if I did, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a workable alternative for all our seniors - and I'm going to be there sooner than I'd like to admit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/2/2008 7:54:09 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
There are some that believe that any insurance, including health care, indicates a lack of faith. Some have also taken the position that going to a doctor or taking any meds is a lack of faith - meaning that if God wanted you to not be sick He would immediately heal you.
Perhaps you caught a statement from one of those people?
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/3/2008 12:57:35 AM
|
|
|
heavencomedown
Posts: 65
Joined: 11/7/2008
From: Seattle, Wa.
Status: offline
|
I dont feel there is anyting wrong with it. For most seniors it is their only source of coverage. lack of faith in Gods healing is wtong... God put doctores here to help us out. I never have understood that some people have that in thier minds that God should heal everything... we shuld have faith but not test Him. He chooses who to heal and who not too and when the time to heal is..
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/3/2008 10:32:25 AM
|
|
|
APZR
Posts: 966
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: GA
Status: offline
|
No it's not unchristian. However, there may be better, private, market driven options worth exploring that would provide better for your pastor. Anytime the Gobment gets in the insurance biz, it always ends up in disaster.
_____________________________
Ya can't keep trouble from visitin, but you don't have to offer it a chair.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/5/2008 10:44:24 PM
|
|
|
MrsTracy72
Posts: 2060
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
|
APZR, I'm with you. But at the same time, I would not think twice about using medicare or even state aid if I ever had to. I mean that is what I have been paying for since I started working at the age of 17. They couldn't possibly give me back in benefits what I have paid and continue to pay out now. In my state, they give you two years of help including education, then expect you to get a job. I know I have paid more than two years worth of the benefits I would get if I needed them.
I would not feel guilty or shamed about medicare. Especially since it is there for a reason and we all pay for it. It might not meet all your needs, but it helps.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/8/2008 10:55:54 AM
|
|
|
Simway
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
As a Christian and one who is on Medicare , along with a suppliment, I see nothing wrong with using it. I don't put any restriction on what can God or would do as far as healing goes. That is all in his hans, and he will do his will. What We have to do is accept that which isn't always easy to do. I know I"m getting off track a little here. So again, I use it, and have no problem doing so Simway
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/8/2008 6:30:51 PM
|
|
|
myka
Posts: 818
Status: offline
|
I think that there is a difference in individuals who need to rely on medicare for their medical needs and the organization that decides that they can not provide for their employees because the employees can use the government benefits.
quote:
I first heard this "suggested" by the way a particular item was presented in a budget presentation for our pastor's salary/benefits
and then heard it suggested in a prayer.
It seems like this might be an issue where a church was not providing health/medical benefits for its pastor. I've seen an increasing number of churches decide that they don't need to provide those benefits for their pastor which I do think is probably indicative of a 'heart issue'.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/8/2008 9:44:30 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 3002
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
Medicare is for individuals over 65, or like myself, on disability. Many doctors acept only a limited number of new Medicare patients b/c their reimbursement rate is far below prevailing rates.
Medicare must not be confused with Medicaid. Combined with my Medicare suplement payment. I pay about $200 per month in insurance coverage.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/26/2008 4:10:31 PM
|
|
|
iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: caddowens
I first heard this "suggested" by the way a particular item was presented in a budget presentation for our pastor's salary/benefits
and then heard it suggested in a prayer.
i personally feel what your church is proposing is wrong. pastors can fill out irs form 4361 to opt out of paying social security / medicare taxes as a conscientious objector ... one can not opt out thinking they'll do better investing on their own or for the belief social security will not be around at retirement age ... or you'll get raptured up first ;) it must be an integral part of your theology ... you'd also have to have the mindset that even if you were forced to pay into the system for decades, you would never collect any benefits ever because of your belief system ... it's an opposition to receiving benefits, not paying for them ... this is basically a provision Congress created for those of the Amish faith ...
it may make financial sense to opt out as it's resulting in an 18.1% pay raise but i believe it's morally unethical ... it seems an existing church is presenting this as a new option only for financial reason and not coming from any existing beliefs
_____________________________
Photoblogging My Life
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/27/2008 6:36:41 PM
|
|
|
gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Well put iwillfearnoevil.
Ministers can't just opt out for financial reasons, the form requires that the person opting out agree to the following statement:
"I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister, member of a religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services
for, medical care."
We're dealing with a very sad case of a pastor who opted out for financial reasons without really thinking through the consequences or saving enough for his own retirement. He joined our staff late in his career (about 4 years ago at the age of 66) to oversee discipleship. He's had some health problems in the last year so our Senior Pastor asked him if he felt up to continuing in the role. He responded that he and his wife desperately want to retire but opted out of Social Security long ago and have virtually no retirement savings other than what our church has put in his retirement account over the last 4 years. We're doing everything we can to figure out how to create a retirement fund for him, but it's a very difficult situation that he never should have gotten into.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/29/2008 3:49:10 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Didn't that use to read "welfare" they were opposed to?
quote:
"I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister, member of a religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services
for, medical care."
ROFL
I sure wish the gov. would make it clear if this is welfare or insurance?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/29/2008 8:29:47 PM
|
|
|
gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
I sure wish the gov. would make it clear if this is welfare or insurance?
I'm sorry, but I don't get it.
Both Social Security and Medicare are programs that are funded by the tax contributions of employers and employees throughout their careers, and only the people who pay into the programs (or their dependents) are eligible to receive payments from them.
Are you saying the Social Security and Medicare are welfare programs?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/29/2008 8:48:46 PM
|
|
|
relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
|
quote:
Are you saying the Social Security and Medicare are welfare programs? Not all on the right would agree that this is so, but it is one of their more popular and pervasive "talking points". It's the only way they can make their statement true that welfare is out of control and a huge portion of federal spending. They add in everything that isn't defense and call it "welfare".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/29/2008 9:36:48 PM
|
|
|
iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
Are you saying the Social Security and Medicare are welfare programs?
it's a social insurance program and is heavily subsized so most people can participate. however this might be more of a question for the morality & ethics forum. it seems church board was trying to make some argument to get pastor to opt-out as form of a pay-raise instead of giving him a raise. i suppose the questionable ethics of this manuever could be debated over there too lol but it is a financial related too. however what the irs asks is an even different question then is phrased.
_____________________________
Photoblogging My Life
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/30/2008 9:30:45 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
it seems church board was trying to make some argument to get pastor to opt-out as form of a pay-raise instead of giving him a raise.
If the pastor has already paid FICA taxes than he cannot just "opt out" no matter what a board may suggest. Either you are in or you are out.
quote:
Are you saying the Social Security and Medicare are welfare programs?
The government calls it both. I said I wish "they" would decide what it is. Do they want to call it an insurance or a welfare program?
I know what it is by defination - a Ponzi scheme  The biggest one ever pulled off in this country. The sad thing is that by law I am forced to be an investor in this ponzi scheme by our own government.
< Message edited by P31W -- 12/30/2008 9:37:03 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/30/2008 10:17:40 AM
|
|
|
iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If the pastor has already paid FICA taxes than he cannot just "opt out" no matter what a board may suggest. Either you are in or you are out.
although there is a deadline for filing the form (usually april 15 of year 3 of ministry), ministers can receive refund of self-employment taxes paid before filing form 4361.
IRS Pub 517: If, after receiving an approved Form 4361, you find that you overpaid SE tax, you can file a claim for refund on Form 1040X before the period of limitations ends. This is generally within 3 years from the date you filed the return or within 2 years from the date you paid the tax, whichever is later. A return you filed, or tax you paid, before the due date is considered to have been filed or paid on the due date. If you file a claim after the 3-year period but within 2 years from the time you paid the tax, the credit or refund will not be more than the tax you paid within the 2 years immediately before you file the claim.
_____________________________
Photoblogging My Life
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/30/2008 10:23:24 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Thanks. I stand corrected.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Medicare unchristian? - 12/30/2008 10:27:00 AM
|
|
|
iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
|
it's a tricky matter ... i have some of this fresh in my mind from a ministerial ethics class last month ... i suppose from my posts everyone can tell the perspective that was taught :)
_____________________________
Photoblogging My Life
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
