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MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/28/2008 1:13:07 AM
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cowgurl4christ
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I was having a discussion with my friend who believes in the Trinity, but not necessarily in the Bible. He believes words of the Bible aren't as important as the 'energy' God gives him. He talks of being so filled with God's 'energy', but continues to act and talk unChristian-like. He believes that the Bible should be only taken metaphorically--none of the stories are necessarily true, they're just there to teach us right from wrong and to give us wisdom. In accordance to this, he believes that God the Father is not necessarily a human; 'human' is just a metaphor.
I gave him the quote from Genesis 1:27:
"So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them."
After seeing this passage and me explaining it to him, he still insisted on believing that God is a formless, spacial energy, not necessarily a human being....He's just not quite grasping that God is indeed a Being...not a gaseous form.
I told him I'd give him a passage to examine, and that I want him to try to take it literally for kicks & giggles. He agreed to the proposition.
The Lord helped me come across Matthew 24:1-25 (talks about signs of the end times; see below). I couldn't have asked for a better passage! I'm noticing signs of the end of times in my life currently! I asked my friend to think about what is happening around us right now as he read this passage.
Does anyone have any additional words of wisdom I can give to my friend? Any specific signs of the end of times? Any other short passages that he could easily take literally or that explain that God is (a perfect) human? Anything, please! He's sooo close to believing, and I want to help him down the right path. How can I help him understand that, yes, parts of the Bible use metaphors and similes to illustrate a point, (ie Proverbs 10:11 "The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life..." Obviously a righteous man doesn't have a fountain in the place where his mouth should be haha) but the Bible isn't meant to be only taken metaphorically?
Thank you in advance
Here's the passage I gave him to read:
Matthew 24:1-5
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
_____________________________
"My Savior loves, my Savior lives, my Savior's always there for me.
My God He was, My God He is, my God He's always gonna be."
 Artist for Christ
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/28/2008 1:29:07 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 946
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Um... God the Father isn't human. Christ has a glorified human body, yes, but God the Father does not. Nothing in Scripture suggests He does. He is spirit, not flesh.
Now, that doesn't mean He is formless energy, either. He certainly does have a form. It's just not a physical, human form.
Also, this is not an essential belief to bring someone to Christ. Instead of working on the nature of God's form and appearance, try focusing on Christ. Speak of His love, His sacrifice, His death and resurrection, and the forgiveness of sins that He brings. That is what's important when trying to reach out to someone.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/28/2008 6:14:07 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1146
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
After seeing this passage and me explaining it to him, he still insisted on believing that God is a formless, spacial energy, not necessarily a human being....He's just not quite grasping that God is indeed a Being...not a gaseous form. quote:
Um... God the Father isn't human. Christ has a glorified human body, yes, but God the Father does not. Nothing in Scripture suggests He does. He is spirit, not flesh. Agree with Mr. Fribbles... and not just I, but many a scholar would as well. Check out Stephen Charnock's Existence and Attributes of God for a well thought explaination. of this propsition.
Now, your friend's hermaneutic as a whole is unfortunately becoming more and more common within the Western Church, and is largely responsible for its overall decline. The problem is that much of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) is historical in nature. Most of the historical referrences made in the Old Testament have been verified by Historians, archaeologists, and paleontologists alike. If this is the case, then those instances at least cannot be metaphor. Specific examples would be the existence of King David, Solomon's Temple, the three invasions of the Babylonians, the seventy years of captivity prophesied by Jeremiah, the 69 fulfilled weeks of Daniel's prophesy in Dan 9... the list goes on. There is so much in the Bible that has been proven objectively, that the traditional understanding of the literal meaning of the Bible should carry much more weight than mere traditionalism on it's own.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/28/2008 9:55:46 AM
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DougHorton
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I agree with the previous posters. Talk about what Jesus has done as a historical fact. Christianity is based on fact. Too many prophecies were given which point directly to Christ and were fulfilled only through Him.
Jesus lived a perfect life.
Jesus died.
Jesus was raised after 3 days.
That is the gospel and based on that we are told to repent.
We are not told to argue the nature of God, or prove His existence, or anything else. We are told to repent.
And if your friend says he has nothing to repent of, take him to 1 John where we are told that if we say we have no sin, we are liars, and to Romans 3, where even our most righteous deeds are nothing but filthy menstrual rags in God's sight.
I would tell him that Mormons have a burning of the bosom, Sufi Muslims have ecstatic experiences, Hindus encounter Nirvana and Buddhists encounter inner peace. If he has indigestion, that does not mean he has God. 
God is not defined by gut feeling. He reveals himself through nature only to the point that we have no excuse not to believe in Him. This is where your friend stands now. But God reveals Himself and His plan of salvation through scripture alone, not subjective feelings of energy.
Expound the gospel:
Jesus lived a perfect life.
Jesus died.
Jesus was raised after 3 days.
Repeat it over and over, day after day, and don't worry about anything else until he repents.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/28/2008 10:25:50 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11031
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
and to Romans 3, where even our most righteous deeds are nothing but filthy menstrual rags in God's sight.
Isn't that in one of the major prophets? Romans 3 discusses how we've all sinned, but the "filthy rags" bit is in the OT.
Just picking at nits...
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open minded and being empty headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/29/2008 10:59:45 PM
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cowgurl4christ
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Um... God the Father isn't human. Christ has a glorified human body, yes, but God the Father does not. Nothing in Scripture suggests He does. He is spirit, not flesh.
Now, that doesn't mean He is formless energy, either. He certainly does have a form. It's just not a physical, human form.
Also, this is not an essential belief to bring someone to Christ. Instead of working on the nature of God's form and appearance, try focusing on Christ. Speak of His love, His sacrifice, His death and resurrection, and the forgiveness of sins that He brings. That is what's important when trying to reach out to someone.
Yes, I understand Christ is a perfect, glorified human, but upon reading Gen 1:27 I was given the impression that being made in His image means that we also look like God the Father in form, only not perfect as He.
Now I'm confused...Maybe I see God the Father as human in form due to drawings and paintings I've seen of Christ, and I just connect those pictures of Christ with how I view God the Father. Personally, It's comforting to think he has a mouth to speak wisely from, ears to listen with and arms to hug with...itt beats picturing Him as some blob of floating energy. lol 
Anyhoo, I know that's not the focus of the message to my friend...but he did ask. I'm not the greatest at witnessing, but God gave me an opportunity, so I tried my best.
quote:
God is not defined by gut feeling. He reveals himself through nature only to the point that we have no excuse not to believe in Him. This is where your friend stands now. But God reveals Himself and His plan of salvation through scripture alone, not subjective feelings of energy.
Doug, would you happen to know of any versus that state this please? I'd like to share them with my friend.
FurGodWurLivin: I'll will check out Stephen Charnock's Existence and Attributes of God and ask my friend to do the same. Thanks!!
_____________________________
"My Savior loves, my Savior lives, my Savior's always there for me.
My God He was, My God He is, my God He's always gonna be."
Artist for Christ
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/29/2008 11:32:55 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 946
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quote:
upon reading Gen 1:27 I was given the impression that being made in His image means that we also look like God the Father in form, only not perfect as He.
It's an understandable confusion. However, I think it's safe to say that being made in God's image does not involve physical characteristics. If this were the case, then we could arguably construct a robot in God's image, ya' know?
quote:
I'm not the greatest at witnessing, but God gave me an opportunity, so I tried my best.
And that's all God asks you to do! Don't feel as if you failed if they don't accept Christ. They're not rejecting you, they're rejecting Christ.
Also, remember that you don't save them - Jesus does. Keep doing your best, and leave the results in His hands!
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/30/2008 11:10:35 AM
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DougHorton
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From: Georgia
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quote:
quote:
God is not defined by gut feeling. He reveals himself through nature only to the point that we have no excuse not to believe in Him. This is where your friend stands now. But God reveals Himself and His plan of salvation through scripture alone, not subjective feelings of energy.
Doug, would you happen to know of any versus that state this please? I'd like to share them with my friend.
When I wrote that, I was specifically thinking about the first chapters of Romans where Paul lays out the argument that nobody has an excuse before God because He has made Himself known through creation.
(Sorry, my family is about to rush out the door and I can't give a more complete answer at the moment. I'll come back, but I'm sure others can provide references.)
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/30/2008 8:57:34 PM
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makarizo
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These verses would be difficult to interpret as metaphorical.
Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
Exo 33:21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
Exo 33:22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
Exo 33:23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."
Dan 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
Isa 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
Isa 6:7 He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."
Isa 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
_____________________________
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/30/2008 9:45:31 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, <b>for no man can see Me and live!"</b>
*emphasis added*
If Exodus 33:20 is true, then we can legitimately assume that the visions of Daniel and Isaiah were not seeing God directly, but perhaps God representing Himself to us in ways that we can comprehend.
Also, if God were that visible, then what is the meaning of Colossians 1:15?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/30/2008 10:17:53 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
If Exodus 33:20 is true, then we can legitimately assume that the visions of Daniel and Isaiah were not seeing God directly, but perhaps God representing Himself to us in ways that we can comprehend.
Also, if God were that visible, then what is the meaning of Colossians 1:15?
I agree, but the response of Isaiah "I must die for I have seen God"
I get the idea that the sin is what keeps man from being able to see God
and col 1:15, if God is invisible, He chooses to reveal himself.... I like the way you put it.
_____________________________
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 7/31/2008 9:40:36 PM
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TylerGC
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Let me take a stab at this issue.
First of all God (as has been pointed out) is not human. When scripture states that we have been made in the "likeness" of God it is referring not to our physical from but to our pysche. We are made in the likeness of God in that we can think logically, we can relate to other, we can love and feel passion in addition to saddness--this is how we are like God.
Second, Jesus is in human form now. He is in a glorfied body, like we will be one day. However, God the Father and God the Spirit remain in spirit form. They are not physical, and in fact they are even less physcial then your friend's "gasous form" idea.
Let me return to the subject of how we are in the likeness of God. If you look above you will see that I hinted at a Trinitarian formula. As orthodox Christians, we must confess that God exist as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. We believe in one God, but in three persons. To use the classical language of the Trinity (formulated at the Council of Nicea and the Council of Constantinople) God is one "substance" or "essence" but "three persons". While this is weird language, it states with clarity that God is at the same time one and three. Moreover, it is appropiate to say that God is in relationship with himself, and that relationship is at the core of his being. We are humans, but we to are relational--loving others and having bonds of friendship--this is one of the greatest way that we are like God.
To continue on to the subject of Matthew 24. The part that you have refer to is not about the second coming. It is about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. Notice that the question that leads into the disscussion is two-fold, and consist of two parts.
1) "When will this happen?" The key question being what "this" is. The only possible choice is what the text of Matthew was just looking at--which was the temple and Jerusalem.
quote:
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
2) The second part of there question is quite different, hence why it needs the transition "and", this question is about the end of the age.
Jesus answers the questions in the order in which they were asked. He deals first with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. It isn't till verse 36, that the subject changes to the end of the age. All of that material about false messiahs, rumors, of war, stars falling from the sky, even the Son of Man appearing in the sky is just typical apoclayptic language--fitting since this is an apoclayptic discourse.
As far as what text to look at with your friend to talk about the need for the events of scripture to be history--and even here we must realize that it is theological history, not documentary history, we must also keep mind that parables and allegories are used--look at 1 Corinthians 15. Where Paul states that if the events of the Gospels did not happen, then our faith is useless and meaningless.
_____________________________
"But now, this is what the LORD says—he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine" (Isaiah 43:1 TNIV).
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 8/1/2008 6:34:59 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 858
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
Doug, would you happen to know of any versus that state this please? I'd like to share them with my friend.
There is a lot of scripture!
Here is a portion of an outline of the beginning of Romans:
quote:
Theme: The Righteousness of God for Jew and Gentile Alike (1:16, 17)
Mankind's Universal Sinfulness (1:18-3:20)
1. Gentile Sinfulness (1:18-32)
2. Jewish Sinfulness (2:1-3:8)
3. Universal Sinfulness (3:9-20)
God's Righteousness for Justification (2:21-5:21)
1. Provided in Christ by Faith (3:21-31)
2. Proved by the Example of Abraham (ch. 4)
3. Guarantees Blessings for the Righteous (5:1-11)
4. Rooted in the Obedience of Christ: The New Adam (5:12-21)
This portion of the Westminster Confession of Faith deals with how we see the testimony of God's existence in nature, but the explanation of salvation only from scripture, and how scripture is necessary.
quote:
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter I
Of the Holy Scripture
I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2] Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church;[3] and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing:[4] which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.[6]
1. Rom. 1:19-20; 1:32-2:1; 2:14-15; Psa. 19:1-4
2. John 17:3; I Cor. 1:21; 2:13-14
3. Heb. 1:1-2
4. Luke 1:3-4; Rom. 15:4; Matt. 4:4, 7, 10; Isa. 8:20
5. II Tim. 3:15; II Peter 1:19
6. John 20:31; I Cor. 10:11; 14:37; I John 5:13; Heb. 1:1-2; 2:2-4
This portion provides scripture stating that scripture, not feelings, are our only trustworthy guide.
quote:
IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]
23. Acts 15:15; John 5:46; II Peter 1:20-21
X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]
24. Matt. 22:29,31; Acts 28:25; I John 4:1-6
I hope this helps. If you have any questions, just ask.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: MTHW 24:1-25 Signs of the End Times - 8/4/2008 10:39:00 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 858
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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I have some good news for you. You have all of eternity to delve into the mysteries of God!
Take your time and study more than one source. As you might note from my post, I myself am Presbyterian, however, I study Catholic, Wesleyan, Dispensational and any other point of view that comes along. Everybody has something good to say and no point of view should be ignored because of the label we put on it.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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