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Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/22/2009 1:08:59 AM
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WanderingLamb
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Does anyone think it's possible that some things that have been taught in the church for a few centuries, or more, and basically accepted as orthodox, are wrong? Does anyone have Scriptural evidence for beliefs that would go against the grain of what people in the church have believed for so long? I'm not talking about essential christian doctrine. I just think that if the church was so stuck on some obscure scripture verse, thinking that it said that the sun revolves around the earth, and if the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's time was so off base about faith, it just might be possible that some things that are taught today are not correct. Maybe even some teachings that would get people labeled as heretics are actually correct.
Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/22/2009 4:10:00 AM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Does anyone think it's possible that some things that have been taught in the church for a few centuries, or more, and basically accepted as orthodox, are wrong?
Absolutely, yes. Tradition is important and should not be easily discarded, but it isn't everything. Doctrines that have found their way into orthodoxy have usually had very good reason for surviving long enough to be considered truth, but we are human and we do err and many times traditions came into place as a result of the time and place and culture in which they were started. Times, places, cultures, and understandings change, but sometimes it is forgotten how some traditions got their genesis and it is wrongly assumed to be foundational orthodoxy.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/22/2009 6:36:05 AM
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Doghouse
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While its possible for Orthodoxy to be wrong, I think one has to consider how likely that is to be the case. This is a question for individual discernment regarding any religious practice.
In the beginning, Jesus deposited faith instruction and practice with His direct followers. He left us no journal, no diary, no books penned in His own hand. Some of these followers decided to write about their experience and what they gleaned from their presence and observations with Jesus.
Once these people that had first-hand experience with Jesus were gone, it was up to their followers to carry on the instruction and its guardianship and preservation from error. As with all things related to faith, there were some who claimed authentic lineage to the original followers, who were nothing more than snake-oil salesman or charlatans.
This continues today. There are those who discern the truth and the lack of error in faith practices whom others label as "grossly in error" and vice-versa.
This is the one area where personal discernment and judgment must be relied upon in all cases to lead one to the truth.
I want to follow the faith instructed by Jesus. I don't care what that faith community is called. I think this is the goal of everyone who is passionate about Jesus. But opinions seem to vary widely as to just what practice or faith community represents the most "error free" or "complete" practice.
If a type of faith supports a personal relationship with God through Jesus, then it is by definition, a step in the right direction, is it not? From there, the development of a relationship with God is a journey that is completed through an individuals entire life, and with faith and hope, culminates in an eternal presence with God. No doubt part of this journey is observing signs that one's faith relationship is full, and if it is not, examining why or why not, and seeking answers among all the possibilities out there to the challenges of developing the depth and breadth of that relationship as we grow into it.
Happy hunting....
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 10/22/2009 6:43:08 AM >
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/23/2009 10:08:39 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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Ahhh the magic bullet question....
Orthodoxy eventually fail?
There is no magic bullet. Here's the reality of what we all live in. In the end it will come down to this...Youll either worship Jesus Christ or the Beast.
Thats it. Period. Today, you either worship Jesus Christ or a predicesor or some idol. You worship...name your devil____________, or Jesus Christ.
God didnt make it hard to see which way we are going. There are only two options, so if the world, religion or some man comes along with some supposed damning fact against Jesus Christ, its only going to take you to the Beast. But this is how its going to go right? Saints will be killed, they will fall into disfavor, the word of God will be refused and slandered, signs, wonders, miracles will occur by reason of the Beast, the false prophet and the lying Spirits. All of this army gathered together against Jesus Christ and against his people, multitudes will be killed and the Beast will have power.
But finally, when Jesus Christ has had enough the Angel will declare "there will be no more delay in Gods judgments" then wrath will be poured out upon every Beast worshipper. The Mother of Harlots will be destroyed in one day.
There is no magic bullet....There is only Jesus Christ to whom the whole world will bow its knee and declare He is LORD.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/23/2009 11:18:19 AM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Does anyone think it's possible that some things that have been taught in the church for a few centuries, or more, and basically accepted as orthodox, are wrong? Does anyone have Scriptural evidence for beliefs that would go against the grain of what people in the church have believed for so long? I'm not talking about essential christian doctrine. I just think that if the church was so stuck on some obscure scripture verse, thinking that it said that the sun revolves around the earth, and if the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's time was so off base about faith, it just might be possible that some things that are taught today are not correct. Maybe even some teachings that would get people labeled as heretics are actually correct.
First, I must disagree with your assessment of the Protestant Reformation. It wasn't a non-essential issue at all. As Luther himself said, the doctrine of justification by faith alone is the article on which the church stands or falls. It is essential Christian doctrine. The formal principle of the Reformation (i.e., Sola Scriptura) is likewise an essential issue. Popes and Councils have often erred, but the word of God is inerrant.
Beyond that, it is certainly possible that Christian orthodoxy has more to do with man-made tradition than God-inspired Scripture. But if that's the case, does it not imply that the Spirit has largely failed? The Spirit was given to the body of Christ to guide her into truth (John 14:16-17; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13; 1 John 4:6). For that reason, He is often called "the Spirit of Truth." If the church has drifted away from His truth for the past 2,000 years, that would be a serious blemish on His record.
Though different churches have failed at times to uphold that truth, the Spirit Himself has not failed. As with the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, the Spirit removed His lampstand from Rome for her obstinance. While the Catholic Church had increasingly distanced herself from the truth throughout the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, the Spirit did not allow her to continue on that path unchecked. Instead, He raised-up godly men who would listen, men like Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin. They called the church to return to God's word, but she refused to listen. For that reason, sadly, Christendom was fractured into a thousand denominations. Even so, the Spirit of Truth is working in and through them. Lately, it would seem, He has been working with the Roman Church once more (though it remains to be seen if she will listen this time.)
In Him,
-Intrepidus
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/25/2009 12:35:28 AM
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WanderingLamb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
First, I must disagree with your assessment of the Protestant Reformation. It wasn't a non-essential issue at all. As Luther himself said, the doctrine of justification by faith alone is the article on which the church stands or falls. It is essential Christian doctrine. The formal principle of the Reformation (i.e., Sola Scriptura) is likewise an essential issue. Popes and Councils have often erred, but the word of God is inerrant.
Beyond that, it is certainly possible that Christian orthodoxy has more to do with man-made tradition than God-inspired Scripture. But if that's the case, does it not imply that the Spirit has largely failed? The Spirit was given to the body of Christ to guide her into truth (John 14:16-17; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13; 1 John 4:6). For that reason, He is often called "the Spirit of Truth." If the church has drifted away from His truth for the past 2,000 years, that would be a serious blemish on His record.
Though different churches have failed at times to uphold that truth, the Spirit Himself has not failed. As with the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, the Spirit removed His lampstand from Rome for her obstinance. While the Catholic Church had increasingly distanced herself from the truth throughout the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, the Spirit did not allow her to continue on that path unchecked. Instead, He raised-up godly men who would listen, men like Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin. They called the church to return to God's word, but she refused to listen. For that reason, sadly, Christendom was fractured into a thousand denominations. Even so, the Spirit of Truth is working in and through them. Lately, it would seem, He has been working with the Roman Church once more (though it remains to be seen if she will listen this time.)
In Him,
-Intrepidus
Hello Intrepidus and thank you for posting.
It seems you have misunderstood me somehow. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, assess the Reformation as being in error!! I don't know how you got that from my post! I was merely questioning whether some things taught as orthodox doctrine, things which are not essential to our faith (unlike salvation by grace through faith, which is an absolutely essential doctrine), could be in error, just like the Popes and Councils have been.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/25/2009 1:50:28 AM
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RJR_fan
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Every generation is called upon to apply the faith in a wider context, with more precision, than the generation before. 200 years ago, white American Christians thought it normal and acceptable in God's sight to own black American Christians as domestic cattle. Some beliefs and practices we consider normal today will provoke shocked revulsion in our grandchildren -- "How on earth could they have dreamed of doing that?"
The basic, broad outlines of the Christian faith have proven remarkably stable across the centuries. To deny the Trinity, for example, is to declare oneself a non-Christian in your theology! However, every generation faces new and unique challenges "where the rubber meets the road," in the practical modern application of the enduring ancient faith.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/25/2009 2:14:54 AM
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WanderingLamb
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Well said, RJR fan.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/26/2009 1:28:05 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
Every generation is called upon to apply the faith in a wider context, with more precision, than the generation before. 200 years ago, white American Christians thought it normal and acceptable in God's sight to own black American Christians as domestic cattle. Some beliefs and practices we consider normal today will provoke shocked revulsion in our grandchildren -- "How on earth could they have dreamed of doing that?"
The basic, broad outlines of the Christian faith have proven remarkably stable across the centuries. To deny the Trinity, for example, is to declare oneself a non-Christian in your theology! However, every generation faces new and unique challenges "where the rubber meets the road," in the practical modern application of the enduring ancient faith.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about! Before one bashes someone for thinking outside their theological box, they ought to remember what Galileo was put through! But then again, this would bring up such contemporary issues as evolution and homosexuality, and regarding those issues, I am still of the opinion that has been held by Christians for centuries (that evolution is false and homosexuality is not a valid lifestyle). Those are not the particular issues I had in mind when I started this post.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/26/2009 7:41:06 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Before one bashes someone for thinking outside their theological box,
We are not at liberty to re-invent God. William Branham, for example, had an amazing healing anointing. Then, he decided that said gift also qualified him to be a teacher -- and he promptly went loco, and denied the Trinity!
We are not at liberty to re-invent marriage. Consider the "strange" story of a man named Vicky, whose obdurate perversions hastened the destruction of the denomination that once shaped our country's leadership class.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/29/2009 12:59:06 AM
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todd_vetter33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Does anyone think it's possible that some things that have been taught in the church for a few centuries, or more, and basically accepted as orthodox, are wrong? Does anyone have Scriptural evidence for beliefs that would go against the grain of what people in the church have believed for so long? I'm not talking about essential christian doctrine. I just think that if the church was so stuck on some obscure scripture verse, thinking that it said that the sun revolves around the earth, and if the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's time was so off base about faith, it just might be possible that some things that are taught today are not correct. Maybe even some teachings that would get people labeled as heretics are actually correct.
Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
What you seek can be found here at this link. It's very detailed and illustrates many traditional flaws in the Christian condition.
http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/29/2009 10:32:56 PM
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agapeflight
Posts: 120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Does anyone think it's possible that some things that have been taught in the church for a few centuries, or more, and basically accepted as orthodox, are wrong? Does anyone have Scriptural evidence for beliefs that would go against the grain of what people in the church have believed for so long? I'm not talking about essential christian doctrine. I just think that if the church was so stuck on some obscure scripture verse, thinking that it said that the sun revolves around the earth, and if the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's time was so off base about faith, it just might be possible that some things that are taught today are not correct. Maybe even some teachings that would get people labeled as heretics are actually correct.
Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
There is core teaching, which is plain to see in the Bible, and then there is 'fill in the blanks' teaching which each denomination seems to take liberties with. And, in fact, if you visit many churches within a denomination you will find that heterodoxy even exists to the level of individual churches within denominations and individual believers within churches. The question is whether we know Jesus or not. If we have heard the gospel been convicted of sin repented and asked Him in and are walking in that faith there will be fruit. And even if for a time our own hearts may condemn us, God is greater than our hearts as we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus christ the Righteous (1 John 2 and 3.)
So yes if you took the intersection of the belief sets of all christian denominations fifty years old or older you would probably find something very close to Biblical orthodoxy is at the heart, ie the gospel is still in tact in most. So keep it simple, love God, love His word and others, and He will show us all some things on the day He arrives.
I encourage you not to shy away from the diversity of teaching and the various points. Personally I tend to stay away from churches that add anything to the basic gospel message. If they fill in any detail and call it doctrine rather than dogma I have learned from experience not to go there. Are there saved people in most churches? Yes. But you have to decide whether you want to attend the church at Philadelphia or the Church at Sardis? Does that make sense? Unless God specifically tells you to stick it out with a certain church that is the wisest way to handle it.
An example though that surprised me I recently made the acquaintence while researching seventh trumpet rapture scenarios of a man who attends a Church of Christ. As fas as I know they believe that one must be baptized in order to be saved, it is faith and baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Well to me clearly if I am on a desrt island and have only the tract wash up that shows the cross brigding the divide between myself and God but have no knowledge of Baptism, I will likely die an upbaptized believer, so therefore baptism cannot be essential to salvation, no outward work can. But the Lord did tell us to be baptized and I think all Christians should for that reason. Well this fellow told me after we exchanged some e-mails that he often experienced the gifts of the Spirit and spoke in tongues and prophecied, and that he and his wife had a deliverance ministry. It blew me away and it was a great blessing.
So there are those who know the voice of God in many places we might already have written off for their 'orthodoxy.' Living near a 77% Catholic majority has also taught me that there are Catholics who really believe in Jesus. Maybe that is Jesus+++++++ all the other stuff they get from the RCC but they hold onto His Name for salvation. I try to encourage devotion around the idea of Eph 2:9,10 because being free yourself from all the denominational strings does not mean you are serving Christ better than those who never leave one church.
God bless.
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 10/31/2009 10:01:31 PM
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walterquez
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Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? This is a contradiction of terms; it is an oxymoron. If it is not right, than it can't be orthodoxy.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/1/2009 1:45:47 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? This is a contradiction of terms; it is an oxymoron. If it is not right, than it can't be orthodoxy.
Semantics, semantics. Okay, let me reword my question: is it possible that there are some doctrines which have been considered by most Christians, for centuries, to be Biblically correct, but which are in fact in error? - generally through misinterpretaion of the Bible, or by having created theology around certain key verses while ignoring or downplaying others.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/2/2009 9:51:38 AM
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7OFUS
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quote:
Semantics, semantics. Okay, let me reword my question: is it possible that there are some doctrines which have been considered by most Christians, for centuries, to be Biblically correct, but which are in fact in error? - generally through misinterpretaion of the Bible, or by having created theology around certain key verses while ignoring or downplaying others.
WL
Do you have any specific doctrine(s) in mind that you are questioning?
_____________________________
If you copy one person they call it plagerism;
if you copy many people they call it research.
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/2/2009 10:45:28 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 7OFUS
quote:
Semantics, semantics. Okay, let me reword my question: is it possible that there are some doctrines which have been considered by most Christians, for centuries, to be Biblically correct, but which are in fact in error? - generally through misinterpretaion of the Bible, or by having created theology around certain key verses while ignoring or downplaying others.
WL
Do you have any specific doctrine(s) in mind that you are questioning?
Well, yes, but I don't want to state them here, since this is not a thread about those particular doctrines, and I'm afraid of getting jumped on again. Feel free to parouse my subscribed threads, though  .
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/4/2009 11:49:54 AM
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sudzer
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Your journey to the truth will be one of steep hills and valleys, but pray through it. I too asked that question and the only answer from the brethren were negatives. Address your questions the the One who has the answers. Jesus Christ, by His Spirit He will show you all things. I love this scripture quotes by Moses.
To God belongs the secrets and to us belongs the revelations give to us. May The God of us all guide you through His Holy Word.
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/4/2009 12:00:10 PM
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KaptZ
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Yes, I do question a lot of 'dogma' you might say. I try and keep a open mind about it.
I wonder sometimes how much the details of 'orthodoxy' push us apart instead of bringing us together.
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/4/2009 2:15:03 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
What you seek can be found here at this link. It's very detailed and illustrates many traditional flaws in the Christian condition.
Welcome to the website, Todd. Your link in your post contains material which is probably in violation of a couple of Terms of Service for this site (not to mention perhaps being a bit silly). I suggest you link to a less ... uhhhh ... passionate ... page.
Signed - Doghouse - Everybody's favorite Roman Catholic canine...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 11/4/2009 2:21:33 PM >
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/4/2009 2:17:39 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1172
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
WL
Do you have any specific doctrine(s) in mind that you are questioning?
...handling snakes and drinking strychnine...
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/4/2009 3:42:32 PM
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drmark
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quote:
...handling snakes and drinking strychnine... This is doctrine "considered Biblically correct by most Christians for centuries"? NOT!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/4/2009 5:03:33 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Does anyone think it's possible that some things that have been taught in the church for a few centuries, or more, and basically accepted as orthodox, are wrong? Does anyone have Scriptural evidence for beliefs that would go against the grain of what people in the church have believed for so long? I'm not talking about essential christian doctrine. I just think that if the church was so stuck on some obscure scripture verse, thinking that it said that the sun revolves around the earth, and if the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's time was so off base about faith, it just might be possible that some things that are taught today are not correct. Maybe even some teachings that would get people labeled as heretics are actually correct.
Is it possible that there are some doctrines which have been considered by most Christians, for centuries, to be Biblically correct, but which are in fact in error? - generally through misinterpretation of the Bible, or by having created theology around certain key verses while ignoring or downplaying others. Yes, I believe that some doctrines which have been considered by most Christians, for centuries to be Biblically correct, but which are in fact in error.
Example:
Original sin/Sin nature
Now, anyone who comes against "Original sin"/"sin nature" is labeled a heretic. It comes about that no one wants to be called a heretic, so no one will try to refute it, unless they are so bold with conviction as I and others.
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RE: Is it possible for Christian Orthodoxy to be wrong? - 11/5/2009 8:13:05 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Example:
Original sin/Sin nature
Now, anyone who comes against "Original sin"/"sin nature" is labeled a heretic. It comes about that no one wants to be called a heretic, so no one will try to refute it, unless they are so bold with conviction as I and others.
Wow, that's one I would put under the essential doctines category! But I am trying to fathom how one can believe the bible and not believe in that. That is a topic for another thread that I'm sure has been debated over (if allowed here)!
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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